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Multi-hit Magian Swords..which to choose?Follow

#27 Dec 15 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
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I never even considered extra tp from ws. That doesn't even matter. THOUGH YOU STILL NEED TO CONSIDER IT, BECAUSE YOU WILL OFTEN HAVE EXTRA TP FROM WS.

You are multiplying all tp gain by .95, which is not how it works. You either get full tp for a hit, or you get none. Although in the long run, the tp gain ends up the same, it doesn't work, because you are lowering your average rounds/ws by ignoring the possibility of all hits landing. You also are not accounting for the possibility of getting 4 attack rounds multiple times. If 1% of the time it takes 5 rounds to get 100 tp, 9% of the time it takes 6, 40% of the time it takes 7 rounds, 30% of the time it takes 8, and 20% of the time it takes 9, then you are averaging

(5*.01)+(6*.09)+(7*.4)+(8*.3)+(9*.2)= 7.59 rounds per ws.

I just pulled numbers out of my ***, so that's not accurate, but hopefully you're not too stupid to get my point.

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 11:19pm by ThePsychoticOne
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#28 Dec 16 2010 at 12:00 AM Rating: Default
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You proved nothing wrong all you proved was like I said you get faster TP


wut? all I proved was that Joyeuse has 3 higher DPS.

Quote:

Badelaire/Joyeuse 1616 total delay for 100tp, 26.9 seconds to reach 100tp
Badelaire/Khanda 1540 total delay for 100tp, 25.6 seconds to reach 100tp


Offhanding Khanda gives faster TP.

Quote:

Badelaire/Khanda would create 2.7*81.7 220.59 swings over a 5 minute cycle
Badelaire/Joyeuse would create 2.45*89.2 218.54 swings over a 5 minute cycle


Khanda creates more swings.

You also have to take into account that you are mainhanding a weapon that does not multi hit, so it's 2.45 vrs 2.7, which I did the math here

Quote:
Joyeuse is 8.4% faster, 9.2% less frequency
Khanda+1 is 8.4% slower, 9.2% more frequency


3 more DPS on a weapon doesn't mean sh*t when you can weaponskill more.

And it doesn't even matter if you use the accuracy formula or not because Khanda is still a 7 hit even if you hit 95% of the time and Joyeuse is still an 8 hit if you hit 95% of the time.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 4:34am by Zafire
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#29 Dec 16 2010 at 6:02 AM Rating: Good
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Magian weapons use a wRank of the combined base and adjustment. They are different then then older ksnm weapons (Destroyers, ect..) and latent effect weapons because the adjustment is +DMG not a different DMG value.

Zafire the only thing that matters is total damage at the end of the day, I already demonstrated how to factor our what your base damage will be, just add in TP rates to figure the rest out. The current multihit magian weapons have horrendous delay for their low DMG value and low proc rates. OaT averages 1.4 hits per round vs 1.45 on joy and 1.55 on justice, the 2~3 one averages 1.7 per round vs ridill's 1.9 (just for example). The 2~3 one will get approx 1.7/1.45 = 1.1724. 17.24% more TP then a Joyeuse. Of course that doesn't take into account that the lower your delay goes the more efficient your TP / delay ratio gets. You want the lowest delay possible without sacrificing damage, this maximizes fSTR / Enspell gains along with TP vs delay. The only time a high DMG value is important is during WS which typically represents less of our overall damage then melee swings.
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#30 Dec 16 2010 at 6:51 AM Rating: Decent
I understand what you are saying Rog, but you are basing TP gains on a WS that will not always give you TP returns. Being a multihit you can miss hits, thus not get TP for said hits. Factoring for that is retarded. Especially considering the greatly reduced chance of landing all hits of multi hit WS. You AVG above further proves my point. 7.59 hit is not 7, it is not 8 either but since you can not have half an attack round regardless of being an average or not you need to account for worst case scenario not best case scenario.

Which is why I increased both weapons by 1 attack round each to ensure EACH and EVERY time you are working to 100TP yo get to 100TP with no varibale change. Will you always need 8/9 rounds, no you wont, But you will need 8/9 rounds more often than you need 7/8 rounds, especially when you consider in Both instances you are talking about getting 1 more TP than you need. 1 Miss on any "hit" in any of the 7/8 rounds and you miss your WS.

It is not like I set the Khanda up to fail, I added a round for both weapons equally even if you were garunteed 7/8 attack round builds it would not change that .5% number by a whole lot, maybe another fraction of a %.

Again That is assuming you WS at exactly 100TP every single time. If you hold TP cause a mob is @ 10% an it is a waste, then the Joyeuse is gaining roughly 3DMG/s that you are not WSing.

The only way that ToTM multihits are worth getting is if the 2-4 is so far above and beyond that it makes the Joyeuse look real bad, and by real bad that is >.5% more AVG total DPS. Personally I would not trade hours and hours for 12 more overall DMG per WS(inc TP phase). If You even WS @ 100TP at all.

The joyeuse is still our best all around weapon out of the ones the OP listed (even though it wasn't listed), in terms of DPS + Time to WS not to mention one of the biggest factors. Time to obtain.

@ Sae

Hmmm I know there was testing being done, glad to see SE was kind enough to make them not super gimp like that. I retract my above reply to you if this really is the case.

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#31 Dec 16 2010 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem rdmcandie wrote:
I understand what you are saying Rog, but you are basing TP gains on a WS that will not always give you TP returns.
What the @#%^ are you even talking about? NO ONE HAS SAID THAT.

Quote:
Being a multihit you can miss hits, thus not get TP for said hits. Factoring for that is retarded. Especially considering the greatly reduced chance of landing all hits of multi hit WS. You AVG above further proves my point. 7.59 hit is not 7, it is not 8 either but since you can not have half an attack round regardless of being an average or not you need to account for worst case scenario not best case scenario.
No. You need to account for REALITY. Using 8 IS WRONG. Using 7 is also WRONG. Using either number is simply dishonest. Your math is completely wrong, and meaningless. You can absolutely have a fractional hit build when using multihit weapons. KIND OF LIKE HOW YOU CAN HAVE A 94.5% HIT RATE. Protip: 7.5 rounds per ws doesn't mean it takes 7.5 rounds to get 100 tp, it means half of the time it will take 7, and half will take 8 rounds to get 100 tp.

Quote:
Which is why I increased both weapons by 1 attack round each to ensure EACH and EVERY time you are working to 100TP yo get to 100TP with no varibale change.
But there WILL BE A VARIABLE AMOUNT OF ROUNDS TO GET 100 TP. You can get 100 tp in as few as 5 rounds with khanda.

Just because there's a chance of taking 10 rounds to get 100 tp doesn't mean you can pretend those 5 round ws cycles didn't happen.

Yes, i am mad.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 9:19am by ThePsychoticOne
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#32 Dec 16 2010 at 11:09 AM Rating: Default
67% of the time it works all the time.
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#33 Dec 16 2010 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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It doesn't have to work all of the time, as long as you account for the times that doesn't. Which you didn't do.
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#34 Dec 16 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Default
cool story so aside from mr.semantics redundant points, joyeuse is still the best of the options you listed that have data available to them.
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#35 Dec 16 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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By your numbers, which is skewed in favor of joyeuse, joyeuse only wins by .5%. If you did the maths right, it would win, if only by a small margin.
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#36 Dec 16 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
actually the Khanda setup "wins" by .5%. To which I said, depends on whether or not.

A. WS every time at exactly 100% (in his case 101.5%) TP
B. The Joyeuse Does at least 12 more damage on the 4th hit of the Weaponskill.

In both cases that would push the Joyeuse Ahead.

For OVERALL usage the Joyeuse is still the best weapon. Factoring in DPS and WS frequency. Nothing touches its universal flavor, and furthermore it takes quite a lot longer to get a weapon that even if A is true and B is false is .5% better.

But keep in mind that one time you held TP when the mob was close to death is a loss of more than .5% vs the Joyeuse off hand.

(also for the record, if you consider the 7/8 hit as 7/8 hits, the Khanda is only .58% better. So really Semantics are still moot.)

*edit*

The only saving grace is that for every 29 weaponskills the Khanda set up gets 1 free Weaponskill. But since that would be be over 100K in damage, I doubt that is a reliable reason to even consider into a comparison.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 2:31pm by rdmcandie
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#37 Dec 17 2010 at 8:16 AM Rating: Default
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And it doesn't even matter if you use the accuracy formula or not because Khanda is still a 7 hit even if you hit 95% of the time and Joyeuse is still an 8 hit if you hit 95% of the time.



100/7=14.3

HOLY **** YOU'RE GETTING 14.3 TP A HIT?

First, that's not a hit build, stop talking like it is one. You're not talking the difference between 7 and 8 hits, your talking about something like 19 vs 20 hits.

Second, counting hits for dualwielding multihit swords is pretty **** pointless. Khanda is more likely to multihit, meaning it's more likely to multihit when you are at 95%, meaning it's more likely to waste that TP, and you have to wait the duration of the attack round anyway.

tl;dr there's no such thing as an X-hit build for multihit 1hand weapons.

conclusion: if no Khanda is more than a few % ahead in TP gain and DoT, it's not worth the hours of grinding thousands of kills to make.


#38 Dec 17 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Default
coool story, sadly we all know what each other meant. Besides about half way down the page I clarified it as to avoid confusion.

Right Here:

Quote:


(for clarification hit is an attack round).


Just because you don't understand doesn't mean the people who are capable of discussing these things don't.


Also this.


Quote:
conclusion: if no Khanda is more than a few % ahead in TP gain and DoT, it's not worth the hours of grinding thousands of kills to make.


Is entirely untrue. In events where TP gain is important (such as using a feeder mob to WS on an NM to avoid TP moves more often) The Khanda 2-3 is great, 4.8% is a huge increase. However in terms of straight up overall usefulness it is not, because your DoT and WS both need to be accounted for.

It is situational.

In terms of what the OP wanted to know the Joyeuse is still the overall "best" weapon. (although subject to change when the 2-4 specs are made known.)


Now off topic: Let me guess you are a SAM or DRK and are tired of getting out DD'd by a RDM using a 7/8 hit build and don't like us stealing the name of it because its a 7/8 attack round build faster than your 5 hit.






Edited, Dec 17th 2010 12:03pm by rdmcandie
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#39 Dec 17 2010 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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Xeurb wrote:
First, that's not a hit build, stop talking like it is one. You're not talking the difference between 7 and 8 hits, your talking about something like 19 vs 20 hits.

Second, counting hits for dualwielding multihit swords is pretty **** pointless. Khanda is more likely to multihit, meaning it's more likely to multihit when you are at 95%, meaning it's more likely to waste that TP, and you have to wait the duration of the attack round anyway.


Calling it a X-hit build isn't technically correct, but it has the same purpose of calculating the average number of attack rounds necessary to get 100%+ tp. Additionally it doesn't matter that they're comparing multihit weapons as long as they properly account for when they will go from under 100% to over 100% in one attack round. It would be silly to invalidate a war build because double attack might proc and take them past 100% tp, and it would be silly to do so here.

Xeurb wrote:
there's no such thing as an X-hit build for multihit 1hand weapons


I would disagree with this statement. X-hit simply refers to adding enough store tp to reduce the number of hits necessary between weaponskills. It doesn't matter if they're going from 7-hits to 6-hit or 20-hit to 19-hit, although in this situation it would be better to call it attack rounds instead of X-hit.

Xeurb wrote:
conclusion: if no Khanda is more than a few % ahead in TP gain and DoT, it's not worth the hours of grinding thousands of kills to make.


Honestly it depends. Right now joytoy and khanda are close, but we still have 9 levels to go which could mean two more magian upgrades. Any increase in base damage or number of hits for the khanda will push it up while the joytoy will remain where it is. What people think is or is not worthwhile to prepare for the future is up to them.
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#40 Dec 17 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Honestly it depends. Right now joytoy and khanda are close, but we still have 9 levels to go which could mean two more magian upgrades. Any increase in base damage or number of hits for the khanda will push it up while the joytoy will remain where it is. What people think is or is not worthwhile to prepare for the future is up to them.


This is exactly correct. ATM the Joyeuse and Khanda 2-3 are very very close in terms of base overall DMG per WS round the Khanda is only half a % ahead. But that as I mentioned earlier requires you to WS at 100TP (or as soon as you break 100) every time. Or the joyeuse to hit for more than 12 extra damage on the final hit of the WS.

Myself personally would not waste my time, Unless the difference was so profound it made sense to. But when you are talking a few %'s to me it is not worth my effort. But that isn't saying the weapons themselves are not worth it. Joyeuse is simple to get, from likely a uncamped mob, that most jobs can likely now solo.

When you get to talking about a few points of a % or a few % either way it really comes down to personal flavor. The only reason I state that the Joyeuse is still "the best" is based on three things.

1. It has a great DPS rate
2. It has a great Ws frequency
3. It is easy as **** to get one.

Math supports 1 and 2, and everyone knows number 3 is true.

Beyond that if it isn't a 5-10% increase in overall DPS to me it personally aint worth the effort.
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#41Xeurb, Posted: Dec 17 2010 at 6:32 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) LMAO
#42 Dec 17 2010 at 6:36 PM Rating: Default
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They aren't the same thing. They just aren't, thanks for playing, better luck next time. An X-hit specifically deals with the TP gained per hit, and thus the number of HITS it takes. Therefore it is IMMUNE to sh*t like misses and double attacks, because for the scope of the build it doesn't matter.
False. If you DA past 100 tp, then your xhit build did not do a **** thing to increase your ws rate. If you consistently go past 100 tp because of a high da/ta rate, then the advantage from your xhit build is severely diminished. You are right about accuracy though. However we aren't talking about hit builds, we're talking about the rounds/ws, which is affected by acc.

Quote:
When you and your buddies are saying 7 vs 8 hit build
We were talking about 7-8 ROUNDS, not hits.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 7:37pm by ThePsychoticOne
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#43 Dec 18 2010 at 12:17 AM Rating: Good
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Xeurb wrote:
I'm just reasonable enough to conclude that rdm melee is pointless in sutiations "that matter".


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
- George Bernard Shaw


On topic: Let's take this a step up, how does the tried and true Joy/Justice combo stack against STR Shamshir/oa3 Khanda?

I'd imagine Shamshir/Khanda has an edge being able to use something else in the ammo slot.

Edited, Dec 18th 2010 1:18am by StylinOfGilgamesh
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#44 Dec 18 2010 at 3:47 AM Rating: Default
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I thought we all sheathed our swords in favor of Blizzard IV and Varuna's +2?
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#45 Dec 18 2010 at 3:47 AM Rating: Default
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K1n371x wrote:
I thought we all sheathed our swords in favor of Blizzard IV and Varuna's +2?
Only the cool kids.
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#46 Dec 18 2010 at 7:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Most likely Shamshir / Khanda would win due to Shamshir+2 being completely bad a$$ for main hand. Of course CDC weapons destroy it but that is neither here nor there.

There is nothing special about 2H weapons that makes sTP any more efficient for them then 1H or DWing setups. Formula's work out the exact same, the 95% acc cap is exact same, DA / TA's are the exact same. I'll use Shamshir+2 / Joy as an example because its easy to calculate.

Shamshir Delay 230 Original TP per hit: 6.2%, TP efficiency = 1.617 TP per Second (TPpS)

Joyeuse Delay 224 Original TP per hit: 6%, Averaged Delay = 154.4, TPpS = 2.3316

Assuming /NIN DWIII + Suppa for 30% Delay Reduction.

230 + 224 = 454 * .70 = 317.8 /2 = 158.9 Delay per attack.

Tp Formula is
5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5 / 180]
We plug in the numbers and get 4.382 which is floored to 4.3 TP per hit. Assuming Rajas and no other +sTP items we get 4.5 TP per hit for 22.22 [23] attacks until 100TP. This is from 0, if we're using a 4 hit WS (DB / CDC) then we should end up with approx 11TP if all hits connect, so 19.7 [20] hits to 100 TP after a 4 hit WS.

Now to factor in multi hits we need to factor in how fast we're actually attacking. Joy is 1.45 DA rate with Shamshir being 1.0 DA rate for a combined 2.45 average attacks per round at 317.8/2.45 = 129.7 averaged actual delay per attack. At 95% acc we need 20 * (1 + miss change) = 21 attacks to actually reach 100 TP.
129.7 * 21 = 2723.7/60 = 45.39 seconds till 100.

This is all at only +5 sTP, 11TP return off WS and no haste.

tldr;
Treat DWing as attacks not rounds because you can and will have partial attack rounds due to miss's and multi hit procs. Adding sTP to DW will have the same effect as adding it to 2H, the only benefit 2H gets is with such large delays the amount of "free" you get from WSing is significantly larger then DWing. On the flip side DW has very little wasted sTP due to its TP gain increments being broken up rather then chunked all together. Being 8TP away from 100 comes much faster with a DW setup then with a 2H setup.
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#47 Dec 18 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Default
why no haste when it is native?
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#48 Dec 18 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Your trying to find a baseline for time to 100 TP for comparison's sake. Haste would be irrelevant because it would effect everything equally. Its also to show that all weapons are treated equally with regards to sTP.

450 Delay GKT, TP Per hit: 11.5, TPpS: 1.533
Hits to 100: 8.69 [9]
With 95% acc hits to 100: 9 * 1.05 = 9.45, Assuming 1 hit worth is from WS then you need 8.45.

450 * 8.45 = 3802.5/60 = 63.375 seconds till 100.

So seeing us @45 seconds base time till 100 isn't a big deal. SAM lowers that number by using their natural insane sTP along with sTP equipment, most 2H jobs use /SAM so there's +15 free for them.
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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#49Xeurb, Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 8:40 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I did adapt when I put my sword down.
#50 Dec 20 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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Xeurb wrote:
Whoooosh.


Cool story bro.
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#51 Dec 20 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Default
LOL clearly someone hasn't heard that RDM's can use daggers, and stack RR with Evis if they don't have CDC. For what I would imagine semi comparabl numbers.

The ToTM swords are decent, they are just something that are not must have. In another update they could be. If you have the time to produce a MA ToTM weapon you should, because eventually they will bypass the joyeuse by enough to make them worthwhile.

As for a 2% faster time to 100TP. It is highly useful in mobs that last a long time, by comparison it will do more damage than joyeuse off hand over that time (at a rate of .05% per WS on AVG) If the mob takes 5 minutes to kill that is 5% more damage (on AVG). Further more, getting to 100% TP faster also offsets the casting downtime. It is all relative you what you are doing, and for NM's getting TP faster will result in more overall damage.

The only reason Joyeuse is better is because it is Universally Good. On trash it will result in more sustained damage, on NM's it will result in similar sustained Damage although slightly less. It is the OVERALL best weapon, bu when applied to certain situations, it is not the best.

an how the **** are you getting 25 TP a round. out of curiosity.

Edited, Dec 20th 2010 5:20pm by rdmcandie
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