Right... So what daggers should I be going for?Follow

Hi guys

I just hit 90 and want to work on as man trial daggers as possible.

Problem is I hear so much mixed opinion when hearing about which ones to pick.

So far I have come to the conclusion that 2x EVA+20 kila+2 is the best weapon setup for solo.

But what about the rest?

Should I be working on any other particular trial daggers?

You really didn't give much info about what you're going to be doing (dd, healing, solo, etc) nor about how much time you have to work on daggers (empyrean, elemental, other).

Obviously twashtar will be your best main hand weapon. If you don't have time for it, STR kila is also a good main hand weapon.

Offhand and other combos will differ depending on what you're doing. DPS wise (and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) but I think the double attack +10 dagger is the best offhand, especially stacked with other DA gear (up to 23% total in an ideal setup). There is also the tp bonus fusetto if you're spamming WSs. And of course you're already aware of the evasion daggers. I personally rarely use 2 of them (even though I have 2) and just match them with one other dagger.

Then there's the non magian daggers. Phurba is a good choice if you're healing or you're in an uncapped accuracy situation (also the dex elemental dagger, but why not have the extra healing from phurba). Twilight isn't terrible, but isn't all that great either. Fairly usable when you're working on other daggers. Auric is also still a decent dagger, but will probably be obsolete within the next level cap increase.

Reverse the last two. Main hand Para+2, offhand STR Kila +2.

Yeah, that's a fine place to start.

I'm doing the 2-4 attacks kraken dagger, but man does it eat up a lot of time killing 500-700 mobs per trial. Only 1300 or so mobs... until they add another trial, at least! I am so envious of the people that just need to AH buy 15 geod(ud)es to finish their last trial!

Anyone have a good recomendation for a main hand damage dagger? Twashtar is a bit out of my current sphere of influence right now, but I'm willing to throw time at other magians that I can do solo. Currently using an evasion Kila, which isn't terrible, but makes me feel lacking when we're doing NMs.

Well, I don't use it on NMs with the LS, but soloing I never have a problem with TP spam. Subtle blow is pretty cool. Most mobs only get off one TP move, if that. The extra TP getting poured into eviscerations tend to end them in a hurry.

I imagine Yata/Yata and Yata/Twilight would be fairly similar damage-wise overall. If you get a Phurba, perhaps offhand the better Yataghan? You could also use a Mantodea Harpe if you can get a hold of one, as that's a pretty solid dagger option.

The Twilight Knife isn't bad; the problem is that it's possibly the 4th/5th/6th-ish best option for DNCs. The magian daggers available are just plain better. Having said that, Twilight does have its uses as a defensive dagger, and it's a completely fine option for those who don't want to go through the magian trials if, as you say, DNC is a lower-priority job on your list.

I could limit it down to two options for you with most current content:
STR/Atk Kila +2
AGI/Eva Kila +2

If Dynamis NMs are anything to go by, you'll also want:
DEX/Acc Kila +2

And just because it's unique:
Phurba

Yeah, realistically we're still not a very accurate job and ~20 Acc on a weapon (Kila +2) is very valuable. If you were trying to DD evasive monsters, and using an DEX/Acc Kila over STR/Atk let you use Meat instead of Pizza, or Pizza instead of Sushi, then DEX/Acc Kila is your best option. 20 Acc in one slot is an awful lot.

Personally, I have:
Twashtar (90)
Martial Knife
STR/Atk Kila +2
DEX/Acc Kila +2
2 AGI/Eva Kila +2
Phurba
STP Fusetto +2
Twilight Knife (though I should d-box it to my mule)

If you're using 5/5 Closed Position (as I am), good gear, and the monster is facing you, then it is very competitive.

We get (optimal TP set, not including weapons):
(341 Dagger + 16 Skill merits + 5 Skill from gear) = 345 Acc
8 Acc from gear
81 DEX base + 30 DEX from gear = 55 Acc
35 Acc from traits
= 443 Acc total (+15 from 5/5 Closed Position when applicable.)

Monk gets (AF3+2, Faith Torque, other things are what you'd guess):
361+7+16 Skill = 365 Acc
43 Acc from gear
83+5 DEX = 44 Acc
= 452 Acc Total (+20 Focus when active)

Thief gets (AF3+2 4/5, Homam feet, the rest is what you'd guess):
354+16+5 Skill = 357 Acc
86+30 DEX = 58 Acc
36 Acc from gear
= 451 Acc total (Conspirator - +20?, Feint - huge, Sneak/Trick Attack - 100%, Ambush - +15 max)

So we aren't exactly running away with the prize, if you consider the optimal gear we wear in most situations. Also, having the highest Acc of any 1-hander wouldn't mean that we don't need an Acc dagger in some situations. A lot of the new content is very evasive, and an Acc dagger is the best choice.

By "a lot of the new content", do you mean Voidwatch NMs and Arch Dyna NMs? I still think that's a pretty small percentage of what most people actually DO in today's FFXI. There's nothing in Abyssea that should pose an Acc problem between Atma/Cruor Buffs, and very few other things outside that present an Acc issue outside of the occasional unusually evasive NM.

Remember too that if you're struggling with Acc as a DNC, other DDs are highly likely to also be struggling. So if you're in one of those unusual situations, might want to consider Quickstep anyway.

I just don't see Acc as an issue for DNC on the vast majority of content. I guess if you're doing lots of Voidwatch that's one thing, but otherwise...

To be fair, in place where you need acc, Charis necklace should be substituted by Faith/PCC, this will catch up the lack of 9~10 acc with the other 2 competitors you mentioned.
Our DW is pretty close to the cap, and 10% JA haste from samba really pushes the attack speed higher than most of the job

I assume you mean Love, not Faith (as a MNK and PUP, a mistake I might make myself out of habit!). I'd add Agasaya's Collar to the mix as well, essentially trading the Enhance DW on Charis for Acc/Atk+8.

Your point is true that you can make other gear changes (and use appropriate food, maybe toss in some quicksteps) to make up for any Acc lost by using a lower Acc weapon.

But still, devil's advocate here... a single Thunder path Kila+2 is 19~20 Acc and good DMG/delay, and if you really wanted to you could use two of em. That's pretty beefy for a single slot. Even Phurba's +10acc is a pretty significant chunk on a weapon that also has the really useful extra effect and still retains great DMG/delay (at least for the 90cap world - we'll see if it gets left in the dust as new weapons and new magian trials arrive, my concern with all of the 89cap JSE weapons).

I personally don't see many reasons it's ever actually necessary to go that Acc heavy on the weapon, and I'm a bit skeptical that 91-99 will change that. Voidwatch may need some acc at level 90, but it's reasonable to think that maybe the initial run of Voidwatch content is built to last a little longer as we get above level 90 (and therefore the acc issues will decrease once we grow into 95/99cap). That's as opposed to the thought that we should expect comparable Acc issues to 90cap Voidwatch today for new content released in the future in a 95/99 cap world. I could certainly be wrong, but I'm taking more of a wait and see approach before I start going too crazy investing time into getting Acc gear that might or might not be completely unnecessary. Plus, if Acc really is that important in 91-99, we just might get some new amazing Acc pieces in future updates anyway... again, I'll wait and see.

If you have some good Acc daggers now or if you've got nothing better to do than make some new magian daggers, certainly doesn't hurt to have them. But is it worth the effort to make new ones now if you don't already have them? Eh... I'd personally say no, with a caveat that maybe it will become worthwhile to have them at 95/99 cap (but maybe it won't, so you might be wasting your time).

I am guessing Daka+2 for Rudra's Storm just got a LOT more desirable whereas before it wasn't much of an improvement.

Twashstar is still much better but in my experience WoE won't take too long in comparison.

Climactic Flourish has 1:30 recast time. SA has 1:00 recast time.
While the big number is delicious, I'm still debating again whether going for it or not. I probably just wait for next Walk of Echoes coin drop rate adjustment.

Yes but CF can be used up to 5 times in succession. Which is 4 more than THF can, (means strings of crit WS's with forced crits ie. Rudra's for SC's) from any direction. THF is limited to 1 forced hit, with a DEX bonus, only from behind the mob. A taking THF is pretty much euchred most of the time, where as a tanking DNC can use this opener to virtually cap CE for the remainder of the fight, CF TP to 100 (saber hsamba) Build 5 steps (NFR step or presto step step or some combo of 5) Rudra's RD Rudra's Darkness capped hate. (or damn near). Bleeding almost no enmity, with a 1/2 provoke to spike VE every 30 seconds.

CF change was huge, and may have made DNC the strongest burst DD in the game, (aside for a RDM cheating with chainspell) and subsequently the best tank in the game by virtue of its ability to nearly cap hate in 30 seconds.

I'd say use the 2-4 hit offhand in most situations. You don't need too much EVA in gear to cap out against most of the mobs in this game, and the TP gain with 2-4 offhand is ridiculous. If you're fighting something where TP is so ridiculously horrible that a DD with the AGI and Capped SB is in danger of dying by offhanding a 2-4 Dagger, you'd be better off with a NIN and Yurin: Ichi. This would be a rare, niche situation.

DA dagger is bad. DA/TA gets weaker and weaker the more you add.

The AGI/EVA dagger is a solid offhand when evasion isn't capped.


Also, for the comment on DNC having the biggest burst damage in 30 seconds, Ukko's WAR and Apoc(90) DRK I know for a fact can reel out more damage. Ukko's Fury spam with Retaliation, nuff said. Apoc can double Darkness SC, Spam Catastrophe with 5hit and retarded haste build, and even use SE if needed.

That said, the WAR can`t tank without massive cures, and the Apoc DRK needs a BRD/WHM to cure itself fast enough to survive most NM encounters.

The difference here, is there are better pieces of gear you can equip, while there aren't better DD abilities than Saber Dance.

All gearing is simply comparing what gives a bigger boost when. Nothing compares to 5DA and 1STP on the ear. Very little compares to Atheling Mantle.

That dagger however, is sorely outclassed in the purpose of TPing.

Edited, Jul 29th 2011 5:07am by Return1

I stand corrected then.

If we were talking about a pure DPS situation, the DA Dagger isn't even good compared to the STR Kila +2:

Parazonium +2 (DA path)
12.794 DPS, not corrected for 10% DA

Kila +2 (STR/ATK Path)
13.577 PDS, not corrected for 9STR/20ATK

If your DA is at 20% before the dagger, you're looking at a 7% boost, at capped ACC, to your DPS. On anything with some sort of defense, or any mob outside abyssea with a level correction, the added 2-3 base damage from fSTR to both hands and +24.5ATK added to you Ratio is enough to put the DA dagger behind, and the higher your DA without the dagger, the worse the dagger gets.


When It comes to TP building?

It doesn't matter how much DA you want to stack, the 2-4 hit dagger will always be superior to the DA dagger in TP gain speed, by a large margin. You should really ask the DRKs with 2-4hit GS/Scythe builds how DA/TA and multi-hits work. The proc rates and interplay between the trait and multihits doesn't work like we used to believe.

You're doing it very wrong.

1) Build TP Faster.
2) WS More.

The increase in WS speed is far more impressive inside Abyssea since your Damage is skewed so much in favor of WSes. Outside Abyssea it's less impressive, but the Kila +2 STR/ATK path is always better outside unless you're fighting mobs so weak that you're already capped fSTR and you're capped in Ratio.

Not to mention that the DA dagger also does slightly more than twice as much damage as the 2-4 on each hit. Meaning in the TP phase you are being out done by about twice the damage, for the same delay and close to the same TP rate. 9% on WSD (after all is said and done) is not going to touch 200% on all hits that dagger lands, including the off hit on a multi hit WS. Not to mention that its bonus applies to all weapons, and WS's. Where as the 2-4 applies only to the 2-4, and not during WS's.

eh it depends what you are doing and how really, I use little to no evade + gear GG/RR/SS whenever I tank and still have an impressive evade rate. The only time ive died on DNC while tanking has been getting one shot through shadows, this is large in part because I have under 1.8K HP and really need those abyssites.

For soloing I tend to only change 3 slots (back hands waist) and still don't use evade Atmas, or Kila's. Same as above, little to no issues outside of one shots.

I've been having good results with evasion in the weapons and haste on the body. I use haste samba and sometimes (rarely) even saber dance when soloing. Plus, I can go max evasion when tanking and waiting on procs.

Dancer has steamrolled almost everything I've faced, and the few things that weren't dancer friendly have all been summoner friendly. But, the dancer stuff has all been so easily overcome I rarely even bother to Violent Flourish the mobs tp moves, I just save the FMs for Reverse Flourish.

I rarely use fan dance; Forget about fulltiming it... maybe for the exception of Sobek's if-this-hit-you-for-more-than-half-of-your-hp-pool-you're-dead.