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Curing Waltzes: A ComparisonFollow

#1 Dec 17 2010 at 12:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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I was curious, so I threw a spreadsheet together to look at some numbers. Curing Waltz V really isn't too bad in the right situation.

TP: TP cost of Waltz
Seconds: Recast, in seconds
Cure: Base value of waltz. With 0 in VIT and CHR this value would be what the Waltz cures.
Mult: DNC CHR + Target's VIT is multiplied by this number and added to the amount cured to get the final result.
Actual: Actual HP cured where the total of the DNC and target's CHR and VIT (respectively) is 160. This is relatively close to what most job/race combinations would produce at level 90.
TP/Sec: TP cost to spam this waltz repeatedly.
HP/Sec: HP cured per second over time if spamming this waltz repeatedly.
HP Ratio: Ratio of HP cured to TP spent.

Curing Waltz 5 formula is an estimate based on observations made on BG, but is fairly close. I expect 800 is a bit too round of a number, but...
No Waltz Recast or Waltz TP Cost gear (Add-on augment bonuses) 
 
Waltz	TP	Seconds	Cure	Mult	Actual	TP/Sec	HP/Sec	HP Ratio 
1	20	6	60	0.125	80	3.33	13.33	4.00 
2	35	8	130	0.5	210	4.38	26.25	6.00 
3	50	10	270	0.75	390	5.00	39.00	7.80 
4	65	17	450	1	610	3.82	35.88	9.38 
5	80	23	600	1.25	800	3.48	34.78	10.00
Observations

Using Atma, you can get +50 HP/tic Regen. This is approximately as potent as having a full AF geared DNC spamming CW1 on you non-stop while you are in Abyssea.

Curing Waltz 3 is the fastest curing attainable over time for DNC.

Over time, Curing Waltz 3 costs 30% more TP than Curing Waltz 4, but only cures 8.5% faster.

Curing Waltz 5 is only 6.5% more TP efficient than Curing Waltz 4. Since TP efficiency is it's only strong point (aside from the massive cure bomb in an emergency), this is pretty lousy.

Curing Waltz 4, however, is 20% more TP efficient than Curing Waltz 3.

Some people use add-on augments for their waltzes. I don't, but if you're interested in the tables for them:
-2s Waltz Recast (Add-on augment bonuses) 
 
Waltz	TP	Seconds	Cure	Mult	Actual	TP/Sec	HP/Sec	HP Ratio 
1	20	4	60	0.125	80	5.00	20.00	4.00 
2	35	6	130	0.5	210	5.83	35.00	6.00 
3	50	8	270	0.75	390	6.25	48.75	7.80 
4	65	15	450	1	610	4.33	40.67	9.38 
5	80	21	600	1.25	800	3.81	38.10	10.00 
 
Waltz TP Cost -5 (Add-on augment bonuses) 
 
Waltz	TP	Seconds	Cure	Mult	Actual	TP/Sec	HP/Sec	HP Ratio 
1	15	6	60	0.125	80	2.50	13.33	5.33 
2	30	8	130	0.5	210	3.75	26.25	7.00 
3	45	10	270	0.75	390	4.50	39.00	8.67 
4	60	17	450	1	610	3.53	35.88	10.17 
5	75	23	600	1.25	800	3.26	34.78	10.67 
 
 
-2s Waltz Recast and Waltz TP Cost -5 (Add-on augment bonuses) 
 
Waltz	TP	Seconds	Cure	Mult	Actual	TP/Sec	HP/Sec	HP Ratio 
1	15	4	60	0.125	80	3.75	20.00	5.33 
2	30	6	130	0.5	210	5.00	35.00	7.00 
3	45	8	270	0.75	390	5.63	48.75	8.67 
4	60	15	450	1	610	4.00	40.67	10.17 
5	75	21	600	1.25	800	3.57	38.10	10.67
It still doesn't become overly useful, but if VIT + CHR is increased by 100 (via atma, gear, or whatever), Curing Waltz V gets ridiculously beefed up. I would guess with my current Waltz Potency gear, that would work out to approximately 1250 HP. Ironically, it's LESS efficient over Curing Waltz 4 with boosted stats.
Waltz	TP	Seconds	Cure	Mult	Actual	TP/Sec	HP/Sec	HP Ratio 
1	20	6	60	0.125	92.5	3.33	15.42	4.63 
2	35	8	130	0.5	260	4.38	32.50	7.43 
3	50	10	270	0.75	465	5.00	46.50	9.30 
4	65	17	450	1	710	3.82	41.76	10.92 
5	80	23	600	1.25	925	3.48	40.22	11.56


Edited, Dec 17th 2010 1:49am by Calessa
#2 Dec 17 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I love cw V 1k heals has allowed me to solo like mad in abyssea to much fun 2k evis + 1k heals is nothing but <3
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#3 Dec 17 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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539 posts
If you read the charts, though, CWV isn't helping you solo. You just aren't using your old cures effectively. That's the whole reason I decided to do this. The problem is the mindset of "I'm over 50% HP, why cure?" If you use Waltz III to keep yourself topped off all the time, your solo ability should be pretty much peak without even touching Waltz IV, much less Waltz V.

You'll be slightly less efficient on your TP, but over-curing is less of an issue, so it evens out -- and staying full instead of bouncing between half dead and fully alive means if you get hit by a big attack (like Mantle Pierce from Khalamari), you'll have the HP to take the hit.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 3:41pm by Calessa
#4 Dec 17 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Calessa wrote:
If you read the charts, though, CWV isn't helping you solo. You just aren't using your old cures effectively. That's the whole reason I decided to do this. The problem is the mindset of "I'm over 50% HP, why cure?" If you use Waltz III to keep yourself topped off all the time, your solo ability should be pretty much peak without even touching Waltz IV, much less Waltz V


I read it the less times I am tossing heals the more dps I am doing its a choice period mob dead I dont need to worry about healing.....
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#5 Dec 17 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not saying you aren't free to choose (I usually use CW4 myself, even though it's not the best for anything - habit more than anything), but you seem to be insinuating that CW5 somehow is making soloing easier. It doesn't add up.
#6 Dec 17 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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One thing that I'm not sure you've considered:
Any time you use a JA you are inflicted with a 2 second delay. This reduces your TP gain and decreases the TP efficiency of lower tier Waltzes. The minor HP/TP difference between Curing Waltz 4 and 5 may be compensated for by the less-frequent use of CW5 (and thus increased TP gain because you swing more).
Similarly, this correction really hurts CW3's TP efficiency a lot. Every JA delay costs you about 20 TP in lost swings at capped delay reduction.
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#7 Dec 17 2010 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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Calessa wrote:
I'm not saying you aren't free to choose (I usually use CW4 myself, even though it's not the best for anything - habit more than anything), but you seem to be insinuating that CW5 somehow is making soloing easier. It doesn't add up.



For me its easy I take the extra HP recovered vs the timer since I go longer before I need to heal again this equates to more damage to the mob I am fighting or time for pure damage mitigation shadows. It's my play style I have soloed where I felt I constantly needed to spam CW3 and I spend less time dpsing/wsing doing steps or anything else that helps kill the mob does it make it easier to solo shug it works for me mobs die fast as **** when I crit almost every hit and tossing 2k evis vs constant cw3 cure bombing myself back up to full. It feels safer to boot.

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#8 Dec 17 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
One thing that I'm not sure you've considered:
Any time you use a JA you are inflicted with a 2 second delay. This reduces your TP gain and decreases the TP efficiency of lower tier Waltzes. The minor HP/TP difference between Curing Waltz 4 and 5 may be compensated for by the less-frequent use of CW5 (and thus increased TP gain because you swing more).
Similarly, this correction really hurts CW3's TP efficiency a lot. Every JA delay costs you about 20 TP in lost swings at capped delay reduction.


+1

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#9 Dec 17 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Every JA delay costs you about 20 TP in lost swings at capped delay reduction.

Which is (largely) irrelevant to soloing, unless you have a BRD/WHM in your back pocket -- which isn't exactly solo. Even so, Waltz 4 is probably a safer bet than 5. Job abilities used in groups also add less delay than when used separately, so the penalty for using CW3 isn't as bad, if you keep it grouped up.

Edit: It occurs to me that I'm talking about soloing NMs. Against non-NM stuff, CW5 probably is better in most cases.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 7:08pm by Calessa
#10 Dec 17 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Been loving Waltz 5, for the aforementioned reason of lessened JA usage. It's also a nice boost to Trance.

Sure, if you're fighting something that can take you from half HP to dead in an instant, you'll wanna top off your HP with a lower Waltz prior to that. But thanks to Fan Dance, most of the strong physical attacks that you'd face in a NM solo are no longer such a big threat.
#11 Dec 17 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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I can see the option of using CW5 only when you need it, mainly if you know the mob won't oneshot you at 50%. especially since it is the most TP efficient. less tp spent, and more tp gained from less JA's = more tp spent doing WS's. If i know i'll be taking alot of constant damage, spamming C3 is much preferred so i can save the ability to drop a 4/5 if i get hit real hard.
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#12 Dec 18 2010 at 2:08 AM Rating: Decent
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At 35% Haste and 60% DW (DNC solo), you're looking at about 1 swing per second. 2 seconds loses you 2 swings, or about 10 TP. So just add 10TP to the cost of every Waltz and re-do the table for solo. Add 20TP to the cost of every Waltz and re-do the table for parties.
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#13 Dec 18 2010 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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(+10 TP)
Waltz	TP	Seconds	Cure	Mult	Actual	TP/Sec	HP/Sec	HP Ratio  
1	30	6	60	0.125	80	5.00	13.33	2.67 
2	45	8	130	0.5	210	5.63	26.25	4.67 
3	60	10	270	0.75	390	6.00	39.00	6.50 
4	75	17	450	1	610	4.41	35.88	8.13 
5	90	23	600	1.25	800	3.91	34.78	8.89


(+20 TP)
1	40	6	60	0.125	80	6.67	13.33	2.00 
2	55	8	130	0.5	210	6.88	26.25	3.82 
3	70	10	270	0.75	390	7.00	39.00	5.57 
4	85	17	450	1	610	5.00	35.88	7.18 
5	100	23	600	1.25	800	4.35	34.78	8.00


Simple change to make.
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