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Dual Wield Weapon set at 75Follow

#1 Jan 01 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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As I am nearing 75 I am wondering what you guys prefer for your weapon sets when dual wielding. I have 8 sword merits and a suppa, along with 5 dagger merits. I will have 18% haste when I finally get 75 and was just wondering what you guys use for set ups. I have BK+1, Joy, and CUK. Is it worth my time to pick up an Azoth?
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#2 Jan 01 2009 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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Azoth/BK+1 for DD. I offhand Stun Kukri +1 when I solo hard stuff. When you can get your hands on ermine's tail, I'd opt for that over the BK+1.
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#3 Jan 01 2009 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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high base damage is win for Azoth.
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#4 Jan 01 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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Teratogen wrote:
I offhand Stun Kukri +1 when I solo hard stuff.


How often does stun proc against hard mobs?
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#5 Jan 01 2009 at 4:25 PM Rating: Default
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Teratogen wrote:
I offhand Stun Kukri +1 when I solo hard stuff.


How often does stun proc against hard mobs?

How often does stun proc at all?
#6 Jan 01 2009 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you have gil then get Azoth. If you have time and some friends + 16 hours of ur life staring at a screen, get a joyeuse. If u have a suppanomimi then use you joyeuse some more with your 8/8 sword. If you have Adder Jambiya that doesnt exist >.>; use Azoth and that. If you can do Moblin Maze Mongers and get 1000 marbles get an Ermine's tail.


Azoth/Ermine > Azoth/Adder > Azoth/Joyeuse > Azoth/Cobra > Azoth/behemoth > Jambiya/behemoth > whatever else you need gilz and your blind...
#7 Jan 01 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Azoth/Ermine


Quote:
When you can get your hands on ermine's tail



Quote:
If you can do Moblin Maze Mongers and get 1000 marbles get an Ermine's tail



Quote:
Ermine's tail


...yeah...I just like seeing it...XD



oh and again, high haste situations azoth/CUK > azoth/joyeuse for tp gain...i concur with everything else though.


Ermine's tail

...I had to see it one more time XD...so close to having my marbles so I can start farming it ; ;

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#8 Jan 01 2009 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
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Kalisa wrote:
Quote:
Azoth/Ermine


Quote:
When you can get your hands on ermine's tail



Quote:
If you can do Moblin Maze Mongers and get 1000 marbles get an Ermine's tail



Quote:
Ermine's tail


...yeah...I just like seeing it...XD



oh and again, high haste situations azoth/CUK > azoth/joyeuse for tp gain...i concur with everything else though.


Ermine's tail

...I had to see it one more time XD...so close to having my marbles so I can start farming it ; ;



lol.. good luck with it^^
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#9 Jan 02 2009 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm a cheap *******, so BK+1/CUK here...feels like a good balance for TP gain + "ok" DD
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#10 Jan 04 2009 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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If accuracy is an issue, I never off hand the joyeuse. Anything less then 85% acc and I go double dagger. For main hand I use Jambiya, and off hand I use Cobra Knife. Especially now with saber dance, I find dual daggers to be very nice.

In situations where I don't want to be using saber dance, and accuracy isn't too big an issue, I off hand joyeuse then.
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Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#11 Jan 04 2009 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you for your post Salodin. This was exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. I appreciate the other posts that had what works the best by math and numbers, but I wanted personal preference. Daggers and sword that you have that you prefer for situations.

Edited, Jan 4th 2009 4:16pm by twirlingcobra

Edited, Jan 4th 2009 4:19pm by twirlingcobra
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#12 Jan 04 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
oh and again, high haste situations azoth/CUK > azoth/joyeuse for tp gain


Link or proof please?
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#13 Jan 04 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
How often does stun proc against hard mobs?


Pretty well. I'd guess about 5% on anything VT+ just from eyeballing. It went off about 9 or 10 times in my last Kreutzet fight. However those 9-10 stuns are awesome cuz they buy you time when you are eyeballing an ichi timer and ni is about to wear.

Edited, Jan 4th 2009 8:56pm by Teratogen
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#14 Jan 05 2009 at 4:37 AM Rating: Decent
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woooter wrote:

Quote:
oh and again, high haste situations azoth/CUK > azoth/joyeuse for tp gain


Link or proof please?


You'll need to sacrifice gear for sword skill/attack/accuracy to get use out of a joyeuse if you're also trying to get a lot of Haste..so in reality, the azoth/CUK would be better than an azoth/joyeuse if you're trying to get as much haste as possible.
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#15 Jan 05 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Excellent
As Theonehio said, you have to give up a lot and use primarily ACC gear.
To put it into perspective, it's a widely accepted fact that you need roughly 378-387 Accuracy to parse 85% on Greater Colibri.

8/8 Sword merits + Suppa = 231 Sword Skill which is 227 Accuracy
Next is Total Dex / 2 so we'll say 70 Dex = 35 Accuracy
Dnc has two Accuracy Bonus Traits for a total of +22 Accuracy

Adding this together it is 284 Accuracy before any Acc Gear/Food/Buffs are added.

Most players merit with a BRD on G.Colibri, so with Blade Madrigal at a minimum you are gaining +27 Acc. This puts you at 311/378 to hit 85% which is 67 Acc short. For a full acc build:

Head: Ohat +10
Body: SH/Etoile Casaque +10
Ranged: Tiphia Sting +2
Neck: PCC +10
Hands: Cobra hands +4
Rings: Dual Woodsman +10
Belt: Life Belt +10
Legs: Cobra Subligar +5
Feet: Cobra Boots +4

This is a total of +65 Acc which brings the full total to 376 or 2 acc short for a total of about an 84% hitrate (On LV.81 Colibri). For every 10acc that you give up for haste gear, you essentially lose around 5% from your hitrate percentage.

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#16 Jan 05 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry, I don't understand why people try so hard to fit a joyeuse in there when obviously dual daggers is more beneficial in so many other situations. Especially now with saber dance, dual daggers with haste gear rocks.
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Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#17 Jan 05 2009 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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The ImmortalAlchemist of Doom wrote:
Lots of numbers


It's pretty much a given that you'll be using sushi with Joyeuse, though, so it hurts much less to swap in Haste than your numbers indicate.

EDIT: I should probably elaborate. Given your base estimation of 284 ACC after merits/traits/Suppa, you're guaranteed a minimum of +~45 ACC (not including what you get AFTER ACC gear) from sushi. That allows you to swap out Optical Hat, Scorpion Harness, Cobra hands/legs/feet, and Life Belt, and still be +2 over your previous calculations. Odds are, you'll be much higher than +2 over them, though, and you'll be +21-25% Haste richer. Sure, you lose the added attack power of meat, but DNC isn't really built for strong DDing and the sheer amount of TP gain improvement you'll see with a strong haste build will easily outweigh the minimal loss of power. It's almost silly NOT to use a Joyeuse, considering how easy it is to build around with a little time, effort, and mostly R/Ex items.

EDIT AGAIN: To elaborate more, what I'm basically saying is that if you want more power, the added TP gain of a Joyeuse/Haste build gives you several more WSs. There's really no downside.

Edited, Jan 5th 2009 10:44pm by Davrost
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#18 Jan 05 2009 at 11:40 PM Rating: Decent
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u guys use sushi at birds? can i borrow some gil?
#19 Jan 06 2009 at 3:41 AM Rating: Decent
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mrefuman wrote:
u guys use sushi at birds? can i borrow some gil?

Sole Sushi is not the only sushi you can buy on AH.
I use sushi on my polearm SAM.
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#20 Jan 06 2009 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
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crab sushi is relativlly cheap.


edit: oh and Ermine's tail.

Edited, Jan 6th 2009 10:29am by bwood
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#21 Jan 06 2009 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I use sushi on birds, and for the most part I'm ok. I just have to be careful when I WS so I don't overkill or WS too early and pull hate, and the subsequent Snatch Morsel or Feather Tickle.
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Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#22 Jan 07 2009 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Davrost wrote:
The ImmortalAlchemist of Doom wrote:
Lots of numbers

Other stuff(just read his post)

Well, lets see if we can compare for pure tp gain, which is better, Joy or CUK, in a full haste build.

First, lets set the equip(cheaper), amount of acc, and the acc you need to cap:
Going to go with a relatively easy to get build.
Colibri need 407 acc to cap accuracy at 75(339 Evasion, add 40 acc to cap, then 4 acc per level difference).
Base Acc for DNC dagger with full merits: 264 Acc
Base Acc for DNC sword was mentioned earlier at 227
Add in Dex(going by IA's 70(+5 rajas)) and acc bonus for both and you'll have:
Dagger: 323
Sword: 286
Gear: 20 Acc and 21% haste
Main: BK +1
Sub: Piece in question
Ammo: Tiphia Sting
Head: Walhara Turban
Neck PCC
Ear: Suppa
Ear: Brutal
Body: Rap(Etoile probably ends up better, but going for max haste)
hands: Dusk
Ring: Rajas
Ring: Sniper/Woods/Blood
Back: Amemet +1
Waist: Swift
Legs: Etoile
Feet: Dusk

With crab sushi(cheap and can use against birds) acc for both is:
Dagger: 387 Acc
Sword: 345 Acc

Now to the delays, BK+1/CUK is 298 delay before haste, 236 after(118 per weapon). BK+1/Joy is 340 before haste, 269 after(~134.5 per weapon).

For a theoretical 1 hour worth of pure swings on Colibri, the amount of hits for BK+1/CUK is:
236 Delay= 3.93 secs per round, 916 rounds in one hour, 1832(1923 with brutal) separate swings.

Bk+1/Joy(going to calc these separate, to include the 45% da on joy, and to separate their acc values)
269 Delay= 4.483 secs per round, 802 rounds in one hour, 1604 separate swings before DA. 802 hits of those rounds have a 45% DA rate so: 1162 hits from Joy, 842 (5% da) from BK+1, 2004 swings.

Lets add acc vs colbri, without a brd:
387 double dagger acc means 85% hit rate, so of the 1923 swings, 1634 will hit, resulting in 8170 TP.

BK+1/Joy has 85% hit rate on 842 attacks, and a horrid 64% hit rate on 1162 attacks, so a total of 1458 attacks will hit resulting in 7727 tp.


This is without factoring in Saber Dance, which I didn't factor in because I don't know how it works with a DA weapon. However, if we use the other rules, DA weapons generally do not benefit from other outside sources of DA(for instance, it's better to switch Brutal out when using Soboro except on WS). Hence, you'd probably have a much larger benefit on Dag/Dag than Dag/Joy. Without it, Joy hits less, generates less TP, and does less damage.

Short Conclusion: This pretty much sums it up:
Theoneohio wrote:
You'll need to sacrifice gear for sword skill/attack/accuracy to get use out of a joyeuse if you're also trying to get a lot of Haste..so in reality, the azoth/CUK would be better than an azoth/joyeuse if you're trying to get as much haste as possible.

In full haste it hits 10.7% less and generates 5.4% less TP. If we were to use it in the full acc build for BK+1/Joy instead, it would be 1446 landed attacks, 7663 tp, which is still 11.6% less hits and 6.2% less tp.

Joy is pretty useless in merits for DNC. Same reason THFs don't use Ridill.

Edit: I was truncating tp at the wrong spot, making it .1 less than each combo should get
Edit 2: Forgot sTP on this one too, fixed

Edited, Jan 7th 2009 8:19pm by Souji

Edited, Jan 7th 2009 8:28pm by Souji
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#23 Jan 07 2009 at 2:43 PM Rating: Decent
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^Thanks for this.

I suppose those calculations don't even factor in the attack advantage that the daggers have.

Although, wouldn't Azoth/another high dmg dagger be more beneficial than CUK? Like, another BK+1? With DW and high-haste situations (+50%), wouldn't that cut the delay advantage of CUK down. BK+1 still keeps a high base damage (relatively) and the attack +10.
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#24 Jan 07 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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woooter wrote:
I suppose those calculations don't even factor in the attack advantage that the daggers have.

Although, wouldn't Azoth/another high dmg dagger be more beneficial than CUK? Like, another BK+1? With DW and high-haste situations (+50%), wouldn't that cut the delay advantage of CUK down. BK+1 still keeps a high base damage (relatively) and the attack +10.


Actually, I wouldn't use CUK myself(the THF inside me objects). The DPS is low, so although the delay is less, I'd prefer to go with a weapon like BK+1, Ermine's tail, or Jambiya offhand to Azoth. Probably Ermine's tail. What CUK would still win over those in is pure TP gain. I'm not sure if that makes it worth it for a DNC that is healing, but I personally wouldn't do it. Lets see, using the same examples from above, same haste and 1 hour worth of hits on colibri:

Azoth/Ermine:
210+194= 404 = 324 delay before haste(5.1 tp a hit) and 256 delay after.
4.267 secs a round means 843 rounds, 1686 swings, 1770 after brutal DA. 87% acc puts us at 1539 hits and 7848 TP.

Azoth/CUK
210+177= 387 = 310 delay before haste(5.0 tp a hit) and 245 delay after.
4.083 secs a round means 881 rounds, 1762 swings, 1850 after brutal DA. 87% acc puts us at 1609 hits and 8045 TP.

The ~769 hits with Ermine vs ~804 hits with CUK are what matter here. The difference is 26.5% difference in base damage, while having 4.6% difference in hits and 2.4% difference in TP. Unless I'm doing my math wrong, that's a hugely obvious choice to go with a better DPS weapon(although I did use the best DPS dagger DNC can use, unless the stats we have on Terpsichore are incorrect).


Edit: I think my tp calcs are wrong. I'll double check and fix when I get home

Edit 2: Gah, I forgot STP also >< Fixed.

Edited, Jan 7th 2009 6:44pm by Souji

Edited, Jan 7th 2009 8:23pm by Souji
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#25 Jan 08 2009 at 7:43 AM Rating: Default
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Souji wrote:
Lets add acc vs colbri, without a brd:


Everyone already knows that's a retarded EXP decision, though, so you're only skewing the results in your favor. I'll admit that Joyeuse is at a disadvantage accuracy-wise against anything, especially colibri, but honestly... who does Colibri sans-BRD/COR and actually pulls out anything remotely resembling a decent hit rate?
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#26 Jan 08 2009 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Davrost wrote:
Souji wrote:
Lets add acc vs colbri, without a brd:


Everyone already knows that's a retarded EXP decision, though, so you're only skewing the results in your favor. I'll admit that Joyeuse is at a disadvantage accuracy-wise against anything, especially colibri, but honestly... who does Colibri sans-BRD/COR and actually pulls out anything remotely resembling a decent hit rate?


Well, this will be completely out of our comparison but since you asked: My DRG caps acc at colibri without food or outside acc. I hate acc songs/rolls as DRG, and since the advent of crab sushi, I think it's worth less for other classes as well. Both my NIN and my THF in the future should be able to hit in upper 80% using crab sushi without Mad.

However, we aren't talking about the best acc 2h job, we're talking about DNC. The main reason I left it out was because not everyone uses a BRD there, and it isn't as reliable as the sushi, which you can completely control yourself.

I don't mind factoring in a BRD though. Blade Mad gives 34 Acc without merits and at most +39 with merits(I don't think I'd merit mad though, probably lullaby and Minuet). Lets give them the best possible bonus excluding relic, and say 39 ACC from Mad.

Dagger will be capped acc, and joy will go from 64% hit rate to 83.5. Comparison in hits and Tp(using the BK+1 senario):

Dag/Dag will get 1826 landed hits, 9130 tp.

Dag/Joy will get 1769 landed hits, 9375 tp.

At this point, joy finally produces more tp, but still has less hits. We still haven't taken Saber Dance into consideration, and with the way DA normally works(joy DA does not stack with other DA), I'm pretty sure it will only help the dagger portion. In addition, the damage on Joy will be less, and you'll be surprised how little the 2 extra WS you earned actually helps with that(fast hitting classes like these rely on alot of damage done rather than big damage in ws).

Lets throw something else into the equation: There used to be a THF who frequented the alla forums for a while names Kwontoss. He held a then not very accepted view that it was better to spam sushi on birds and have double march than to have Mad sung and use meat. At the time, his view was more expensive and while he often proved his point(he did sick damage, had a very good haste build, so double march helped alot), most people couldn't pull it off. Nowadays however, crab sushi makes this type of situation available to us. Lets see what happens if we use March/Mad vs March/March, for both sets. I'll leave out RDM haste as it should help whoever wins even more. 4 Comparisons:

First, Mad/March(11% haste), haste samba 10%, 21% haste in gear as mentioned in the above posts. Still giving joy a better boost by maxing Mad, and not using Saber Dance. (42% haste total)

Dag/Dag will have a delay of 173 after haste, 2.883 secs per round, 1248 rounds in one hour. 2620 swings, 2489 landed due to capped acc, and 12445 TP.

Dag/Joy will have a delay of 198 after haste, 3.3 secs per round 1090 rounds in one hour. 1144 swings from dagger, 1580 swings from joy. Dag capped acc, Joy 83.5 acc: 1086 + 1319 = 2405 total landed hits, 12746 tp.

Now lets see how they both do with March/March(51% haste) instead:

Dag/Dag will have a delay of 147 after haste, 2.45 secs a round, 1469 rounds per hour. 3084 swings @ 85% acc would equal 2621 landed hits and 13105 TP.

Dag/Joy will have a delay of 167 after haste, 2.783 secs a round, 1293 rounds per hour. 1357 swings from dag, 1874 swings from joy. With Acc, that's 1153 + 1199, 2352 hits and 12465 tp.

As you can see, Mad/March works better for Dag/Joy, but March/March with 2 daggers works even better than both setups. I'd like to point out, again, that this doesn't include saber dance. For those interested, Azoth/Ermine with crab sushi and March/March looks like this:

Azoth/Ermine will have 159 delay, 2.65 secs per round 1358 rounds, 2851 swings, 2480 landed hits @ 87% hit rate for 12648 TP.


In conclusion: With Mad AND Crab sushi, Joy hits at at a respectable rate for TP. However, it doesn't not do enough extra tp to really warrant the drop in number of attacks, and the actual damage per hit of Joy(which makes up a majority of the hits in that setup). Furthermore, unless Saber Dance breaks the traditional DA rules, adding saber dance will favor Dag/Dag to a large extent, making Joy obsolete. To drive the nails in the coffin more, unless you're in a dual BRD party, you should probably be getting dual march instead of Mad on birds anyway.

Edit: Yay, Post 1000.

Edited, Jan 8th 2009 12:47pm by Souji
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