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Dual Wield Weapon set at 75Follow

#1 Jan 01 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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As I am nearing 75 I am wondering what you guys prefer for your weapon sets when dual wielding. I have 8 sword merits and a suppa, along with 5 dagger merits. I will have 18% haste when I finally get 75 and was just wondering what you guys use for set ups. I have BK+1, Joy, and CUK. Is it worth my time to pick up an Azoth?
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#2 Jan 01 2009 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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Azoth/BK+1 for DD. I offhand Stun Kukri +1 when I solo hard stuff. When you can get your hands on ermine's tail, I'd opt for that over the BK+1.
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#3 Jan 01 2009 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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high base damage is win for Azoth.
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#4 Jan 01 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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Teratogen wrote:
I offhand Stun Kukri +1 when I solo hard stuff.


How often does stun proc against hard mobs?
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#5 Jan 01 2009 at 4:25 PM Rating: Default
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Teratogen wrote:
I offhand Stun Kukri +1 when I solo hard stuff.


How often does stun proc against hard mobs?

How often does stun proc at all?
#6 Jan 01 2009 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you have gil then get Azoth. If you have time and some friends + 16 hours of ur life staring at a screen, get a joyeuse. If u have a suppanomimi then use you joyeuse some more with your 8/8 sword. If you have Adder Jambiya that doesnt exist >.>; use Azoth and that. If you can do Moblin Maze Mongers and get 1000 marbles get an Ermine's tail.


Azoth/Ermine > Azoth/Adder > Azoth/Joyeuse > Azoth/Cobra > Azoth/behemoth > Jambiya/behemoth > whatever else you need gilz and your blind...
#7 Jan 01 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Azoth/Ermine


Quote:
When you can get your hands on ermine's tail



Quote:
If you can do Moblin Maze Mongers and get 1000 marbles get an Ermine's tail



Quote:
Ermine's tail


...yeah...I just like seeing it...XD



oh and again, high haste situations azoth/CUK > azoth/joyeuse for tp gain...i concur with everything else though.


Ermine's tail

...I had to see it one more time XD...so close to having my marbles so I can start farming it ; ;

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#8 Jan 01 2009 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
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Kalisa wrote:
Quote:
Azoth/Ermine


Quote:
When you can get your hands on ermine's tail



Quote:
If you can do Moblin Maze Mongers and get 1000 marbles get an Ermine's tail



Quote:
Ermine's tail


...yeah...I just like seeing it...XD



oh and again, high haste situations azoth/CUK > azoth/joyeuse for tp gain...i concur with everything else though.


Ermine's tail

...I had to see it one more time XD...so close to having my marbles so I can start farming it ; ;



lol.. good luck with it^^
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#9 Jan 02 2009 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm a cheap bastard, so BK+1/CUK here...feels like a good balance for TP gain + "ok" DD
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#10 Jan 04 2009 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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If accuracy is an issue, I never off hand the joyeuse. Anything less then 85% acc and I go double dagger. For main hand I use Jambiya, and off hand I use Cobra Knife. Especially now with saber dance, I find dual daggers to be very nice.

In situations where I don't want to be using saber dance, and accuracy isn't too big an issue, I off hand joyeuse then.
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#11 Jan 04 2009 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you for your post Salodin. This was exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. I appreciate the other posts that had what works the best by math and numbers, but I wanted personal preference. Daggers and sword that you have that you prefer for situations.

Edited, Jan 4th 2009 4:16pm by twirlingcobra

Edited, Jan 4th 2009 4:19pm by twirlingcobra
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#12 Jan 04 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
oh and again, high haste situations azoth/CUK > azoth/joyeuse for tp gain


Link or proof please?
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#13 Jan 04 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
How often does stun proc against hard mobs?


Pretty well. I'd guess about 5% on anything VT+ just from eyeballing. It went off about 9 or 10 times in my last Kreutzet fight. However those 9-10 stuns are awesome cuz they buy you time when you are eyeballing an ichi timer and ni is about to wear.

Edited, Jan 4th 2009 8:56pm by Teratogen
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#14 Jan 05 2009 at 4:37 AM Rating: Decent
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woooter wrote:

Quote:
oh and again, high haste situations azoth/CUK > azoth/joyeuse for tp gain


Link or proof please?


You'll need to sacrifice gear for sword skill/attack/accuracy to get use out of a joyeuse if you're also trying to get a lot of Haste..so in reality, the azoth/CUK would be better than an azoth/joyeuse if you're trying to get as much haste as possible.
#15 Jan 05 2009 at 12:04 PM Rating: Excellent
As Theonehio said, you have to give up a lot and use primarily ACC gear.
To put it into perspective, it's a widely accepted fact that you need roughly 378-387 Accuracy to parse 85% on Greater Colibri.

8/8 Sword merits + Suppa = 231 Sword Skill which is 227 Accuracy
Next is Total Dex / 2 so we'll say 70 Dex = 35 Accuracy
Dnc has two Accuracy Bonus Traits for a total of +22 Accuracy

Adding this together it is 284 Accuracy before any Acc Gear/Food/Buffs are added.

Most players merit with a BRD on G.Colibri, so with Blade Madrigal at a minimum you are gaining +27 Acc. This puts you at 311/378 to hit 85% which is 67 Acc short. For a full acc build:

Head: Ohat +10
Body: SH/Etoile Casaque +10
Ranged: Tiphia Sting +2
Neck: PCC +10
Hands: Cobra hands +4
Rings: Dual Woodsman +10
Belt: Life Belt +10
Legs: Cobra Subligar +5
Feet: Cobra Boots +4

This is a total of +65 Acc which brings the full total to 376 or 2 acc short for a total of about an 84% hitrate (On LV.81 Colibri). For every 10acc that you give up for haste gear, you essentially lose around 5% from your hitrate percentage.

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#16 Jan 05 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry, I don't understand why people try so hard to fit a joyeuse in there when obviously dual daggers is more beneficial in so many other situations. Especially now with saber dance, dual daggers with haste gear rocks.
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Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#17 Jan 05 2009 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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The ImmortalAlchemist of Doom wrote:
Lots of numbers


It's pretty much a given that you'll be using sushi with Joyeuse, though, so it hurts much less to swap in Haste than your numbers indicate.

EDIT: I should probably elaborate. Given your base estimation of 284 ACC after merits/traits/Suppa, you're guaranteed a minimum of +~45 ACC (not including what you get AFTER ACC gear) from sushi. That allows you to swap out Optical Hat, Scorpion Harness, Cobra hands/legs/feet, and Life Belt, and still be +2 over your previous calculations. Odds are, you'll be much higher than +2 over them, though, and you'll be +21-25% Haste richer. Sure, you lose the added attack power of meat, but DNC isn't really built for strong DDing and the sheer amount of TP gain improvement you'll see with a strong haste build will easily outweigh the minimal loss of power. It's almost silly NOT to use a Joyeuse, considering how easy it is to build around with a little time, effort, and mostly R/Ex items.

EDIT AGAIN: To elaborate more, what I'm basically saying is that if you want more power, the added TP gain of a Joyeuse/Haste build gives you several more WSs. There's really no downside.

Edited, Jan 5th 2009 10:44pm by Davrost
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#18 Jan 05 2009 at 11:40 PM Rating: Decent
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u guys use sushi at birds? can i borrow some gil?
#19 Jan 06 2009 at 3:41 AM Rating: Decent
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mrefuman wrote:
u guys use sushi at birds? can i borrow some gil?

Sole Sushi is not the only sushi you can buy on AH.
I use sushi on my polearm SAM.
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#20 Jan 06 2009 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
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crab sushi is relativlly cheap.


edit: oh and Ermine's tail.

Edited, Jan 6th 2009 10:29am by bwood
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#21 Jan 06 2009 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I use sushi on birds, and for the most part I'm ok. I just have to be careful when I WS so I don't overkill or WS too early and pull hate, and the subsequent Snatch Morsel or Feather Tickle.
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Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#22 Jan 07 2009 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Davrost wrote:
The ImmortalAlchemist of Doom wrote:
Lots of numbers

Other stuff(just read his post)

Well, lets see if we can compare for pure tp gain, which is better, Joy or CUK, in a full haste build.

First, lets set the equip(cheaper), amount of acc, and the acc you need to cap:
Going to go with a relatively easy to get build.
Colibri need 407 acc to cap accuracy at 75(339 Evasion, add 40 acc to cap, then 4 acc per level difference).
Base Acc for DNC dagger with full merits: 264 Acc
Base Acc for DNC sword was mentioned earlier at 227
Add in Dex(going by IA's 70(+5 rajas)) and acc bonus for both and you'll have:
Dagger: 323
Sword: 286
Gear: 20 Acc and 21% haste
Main: BK +1
Sub: Piece in question
Ammo: Tiphia Sting
Head: Walhara Turban
Neck PCC
Ear: Suppa
Ear: Brutal
Body: Rap(Etoile probably ends up better, but going for max haste)
hands: Dusk
Ring: Rajas
Ring: Sniper/Woods/Blood
Back: Amemet +1
Waist: Swift
Legs: Etoile
Feet: Dusk

With crab sushi(cheap and can use against birds) acc for both is:
Dagger: 387 Acc
Sword: 345 Acc

Now to the delays, BK+1/CUK is 298 delay before haste, 236 after(118 per weapon). BK+1/Joy is 340 before haste, 269 after(~134.5 per weapon).

For a theoretical 1 hour worth of pure swings on Colibri, the amount of hits for BK+1/CUK is:
236 Delay= 3.93 secs per round, 916 rounds in one hour, 1832(1923 with brutal) separate swings.

Bk+1/Joy(going to calc these separate, to include the 45% da on joy, and to separate their acc values)
269 Delay= 4.483 secs per round, 802 rounds in one hour, 1604 separate swings before DA. 802 hits of those rounds have a 45% DA rate so: 1162 hits from Joy, 842 (5% da) from BK+1, 2004 swings.

Lets add acc vs colbri, without a brd:
387 double dagger acc means 85% hit rate, so of the 1923 swings, 1634 will hit, resulting in 8170 TP.

BK+1/Joy has 85% hit rate on 842 attacks, and a horrid 64% hit rate on 1162 attacks, so a total of 1458 attacks will hit resulting in 7727 tp.


This is without factoring in Saber Dance, which I didn't factor in because I don't know how it works with a DA weapon. However, if we use the other rules, DA weapons generally do not benefit from other outside sources of DA(for instance, it's better to switch Brutal out when using Soboro except on WS). Hence, you'd probably have a much larger benefit on Dag/Dag than Dag/Joy. Without it, Joy hits less, generates less TP, and does less damage.

Short Conclusion: This pretty much sums it up:
Theoneohio wrote:
You'll need to sacrifice gear for sword skill/attack/accuracy to get use out of a joyeuse if you're also trying to get a lot of Haste..so in reality, the azoth/CUK would be better than an azoth/joyeuse if you're trying to get as much haste as possible.

In full haste it hits 10.7% less and generates 5.4% less TP. If we were to use it in the full acc build for BK+1/Joy instead, it would be 1446 landed attacks, 7663 tp, which is still 11.6% less hits and 6.2% less tp.

Joy is pretty useless in merits for DNC. Same reason THFs don't use Ridill.

Edit: I was truncating tp at the wrong spot, making it .1 less than each combo should get
Edit 2: Forgot sTP on this one too, fixed

Edited, Jan 7th 2009 8:19pm by Souji

Edited, Jan 7th 2009 8:28pm by Souji
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#23 Jan 07 2009 at 2:43 PM Rating: Decent
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^Thanks for this.

I suppose those calculations don't even factor in the attack advantage that the daggers have.

Although, wouldn't Azoth/another high dmg dagger be more beneficial than CUK? Like, another BK+1? With DW and high-haste situations (+50%), wouldn't that cut the delay advantage of CUK down. BK+1 still keeps a high base damage (relatively) and the attack +10.
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#24 Jan 07 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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woooter wrote:
I suppose those calculations don't even factor in the attack advantage that the daggers have.

Although, wouldn't Azoth/another high dmg dagger be more beneficial than CUK? Like, another BK+1? With DW and high-haste situations (+50%), wouldn't that cut the delay advantage of CUK down. BK+1 still keeps a high base damage (relatively) and the attack +10.


Actually, I wouldn't use CUK myself(the THF inside me objects). The DPS is low, so although the delay is less, I'd prefer to go with a weapon like BK+1, Ermine's tail, or Jambiya offhand to Azoth. Probably Ermine's tail. What CUK would still win over those in is pure TP gain. I'm not sure if that makes it worth it for a DNC that is healing, but I personally wouldn't do it. Lets see, using the same examples from above, same haste and 1 hour worth of hits on colibri:

Azoth/Ermine:
210+194= 404 = 324 delay before haste(5.1 tp a hit) and 256 delay after.
4.267 secs a round means 843 rounds, 1686 swings, 1770 after brutal DA. 87% acc puts us at 1539 hits and 7848 TP.

Azoth/CUK
210+177= 387 = 310 delay before haste(5.0 tp a hit) and 245 delay after.
4.083 secs a round means 881 rounds, 1762 swings, 1850 after brutal DA. 87% acc puts us at 1609 hits and 8045 TP.

The ~769 hits with Ermine vs ~804 hits with CUK are what matter here. The difference is 26.5% difference in base damage, while having 4.6% difference in hits and 2.4% difference in TP. Unless I'm doing my math wrong, that's a hugely obvious choice to go with a better DPS weapon(although I did use the best DPS dagger DNC can use, unless the stats we have on Terpsichore are incorrect).


Edit: I think my tp calcs are wrong. I'll double check and fix when I get home

Edit 2: Gah, I forgot STP also >< Fixed.

Edited, Jan 7th 2009 6:44pm by Souji

Edited, Jan 7th 2009 8:23pm by Souji
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#25 Jan 08 2009 at 7:43 AM Rating: Default
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Souji wrote:
Lets add acc vs colbri, without a brd:


Everyone already knows that's a retarded EXP decision, though, so you're only skewing the results in your favor. I'll admit that Joyeuse is at a disadvantage accuracy-wise against anything, especially colibri, but honestly... who does Colibri sans-BRD/COR and actually pulls out anything remotely resembling a decent hit rate?
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#26 Jan 08 2009 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Davrost wrote:
Souji wrote:
Lets add acc vs colbri, without a brd:


Everyone already knows that's a retarded EXP decision, though, so you're only skewing the results in your favor. I'll admit that Joyeuse is at a disadvantage accuracy-wise against anything, especially colibri, but honestly... who does Colibri sans-BRD/COR and actually pulls out anything remotely resembling a decent hit rate?


Well, this will be completely out of our comparison but since you asked: My DRG caps acc at colibri without food or outside acc. I hate acc songs/rolls as DRG, and since the advent of crab sushi, I think it's worth less for other classes as well. Both my NIN and my THF in the future should be able to hit in upper 80% using crab sushi without Mad.

However, we aren't talking about the best acc 2h job, we're talking about DNC. The main reason I left it out was because not everyone uses a BRD there, and it isn't as reliable as the sushi, which you can completely control yourself.

I don't mind factoring in a BRD though. Blade Mad gives 34 Acc without merits and at most +39 with merits(I don't think I'd merit mad though, probably lullaby and Minuet). Lets give them the best possible bonus excluding relic, and say 39 ACC from Mad.

Dagger will be capped acc, and joy will go from 64% hit rate to 83.5. Comparison in hits and Tp(using the BK+1 senario):

Dag/Dag will get 1826 landed hits, 9130 tp.

Dag/Joy will get 1769 landed hits, 9375 tp.

At this point, joy finally produces more tp, but still has less hits. We still haven't taken Saber Dance into consideration, and with the way DA normally works(joy DA does not stack with other DA), I'm pretty sure it will only help the dagger portion. In addition, the damage on Joy will be less, and you'll be surprised how little the 2 extra WS you earned actually helps with that(fast hitting classes like these rely on alot of damage done rather than big damage in ws).

Lets throw something else into the equation: There used to be a THF who frequented the alla forums for a while names Kwontoss. He held a then not very accepted view that it was better to spam sushi on birds and have double march than to have Mad sung and use meat. At the time, his view was more expensive and while he often proved his point(he did sick damage, had a very good haste build, so double march helped alot), most people couldn't pull it off. Nowadays however, crab sushi makes this type of situation available to us. Lets see what happens if we use March/Mad vs March/March, for both sets. I'll leave out RDM haste as it should help whoever wins even more. 4 Comparisons:

First, Mad/March(11% haste), haste samba 10%, 21% haste in gear as mentioned in the above posts. Still giving joy a better boost by maxing Mad, and not using Saber Dance. (42% haste total)

Dag/Dag will have a delay of 173 after haste, 2.883 secs per round, 1248 rounds in one hour. 2620 swings, 2489 landed due to capped acc, and 12445 TP.

Dag/Joy will have a delay of 198 after haste, 3.3 secs per round 1090 rounds in one hour. 1144 swings from dagger, 1580 swings from joy. Dag capped acc, Joy 83.5 acc: 1086 + 1319 = 2405 total landed hits, 12746 tp.

Now lets see how they both do with March/March(51% haste) instead:

Dag/Dag will have a delay of 147 after haste, 2.45 secs a round, 1469 rounds per hour. 3084 swings @ 85% acc would equal 2621 landed hits and 13105 TP.

Dag/Joy will have a delay of 167 after haste, 2.783 secs a round, 1293 rounds per hour. 1357 swings from dag, 1874 swings from joy. With Acc, that's 1153 + 1199, 2352 hits and 12465 tp.

As you can see, Mad/March works better for Dag/Joy, but March/March with 2 daggers works even better than both setups. I'd like to point out, again, that this doesn't include saber dance. For those interested, Azoth/Ermine with crab sushi and March/March looks like this:

Azoth/Ermine will have 159 delay, 2.65 secs per round 1358 rounds, 2851 swings, 2480 landed hits @ 87% hit rate for 12648 TP.


In conclusion: With Mad AND Crab sushi, Joy hits at at a respectable rate for TP. However, it doesn't not do enough extra tp to really warrant the drop in number of attacks, and the actual damage per hit of Joy(which makes up a majority of the hits in that setup). Furthermore, unless Saber Dance breaks the traditional DA rules, adding saber dance will favor Dag/Dag to a large extent, making Joy obsolete. To drive the nails in the coffin more, unless you're in a dual BRD party, you should probably be getting dual march instead of Mad on birds anyway.

Edit: Yay, Post 1000.

Edited, Jan 8th 2009 12:47pm by Souji
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#27 Jan 08 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Considering on MY DNC I plan to 5/5 Saber Dance to essentially have 30%+ Double Attack at all times while being DD, Joyuese to me looses its value a bit. Now before Saber Dance **** yeh the added double attack is phenominal. After that though Id probably rather be in a Azoth/Ermines=BK+1-CUK setup. While close to capped haste is great and all the fact that DNC can achieve a high double attack rate might make up some of this slightly. And considering given acc bonus traits if you can hit near 95%acc on birds then atk food might be a greta option. By since I though the testing that Souji did was nice I have been considering DNC/WAR, DNC/DRK, and DNC/SAM one hand builds. For this build Saber Dance would be even more crucial but the main things behind these builds would be for endgame as /NIN on lets say an HNM wouldnt be as useful some of the time and you would need the higher atk(berserk,soul eater, last resort etc) to do a good amount of base damage to actually get TP.
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#28 Jan 08 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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So in the end, it's basically down to preference, with dag/dag, as expected and pointed out, edging out joytoy as the haste stacks.

I don't have room for sword merits. So I probably won't bother with joyeuse if I ever decide to merit again. Haven't been in a merit pt for 1 year ._.

Edited, Jan 8th 2009 2:36pm by woooter
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#29 Jan 08 2009 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Same here wooter just been solo/campaign the merits. I am doing 8/8 sword merits because of BLU and I like swords, but this will help my DNC as well until I build up Saber Dance. Thinking of doing 5/5 Saber, 4/5 No foot Rise, 1/5 Fan for oshi
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#30 Jan 08 2009 at 4:20 PM Rating: Default
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Souji, those are much more respectable numbers. I only made a fuss about it because Colibri are a TERRIBLE way to calculate or parse ANYTHING, because their ungodly evasion skews results in generally unrealistic directions. Most things just aren't that evasive.

I do have to correct you on one thing, though. Joyeuse DOES stack with DA/TA gear and traits, but only on the condition that Joyeuse's native DA did not occur. If the randomization sets out a single attack, THEN traits come into play. Saber Dance, therefore, gives Joyeuse a roughly 75% DA rate (50% for the initial DA check, 50% for the single hit check should that fail) upon Saber Dance's initial activation (77.5% with Brutal), dwindling to, if I'm not mistaken, 55% (57.5% with Brutal) just before it wears off. I'm not entirely sure how that affects Dagger/Dagger vs. Dagger/Joyeuse calculations, but it's definitely something worth mentioning.

In the end, though, as others have said, it does more or less come down to preference.
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Relic: SMN - 6/6, WAR - 6/6, BST - 5/5, BLM - 6/6, PLD: 2/5, MNK - 1/5, THF - 1/5, DNC - 6/6, BLU - 6/6, RDM - 1/5, SCH - 1/5, DRK - 2/5, WHM - 1/5
Notable Crafts: WW: 73.1+2, AL: 60.0, CO: 60.0, LC: 60.0+1, CC: 54.3+1
#31 Jan 08 2009 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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All really good info from you guys. It has helped me kinda decide to go with dag/dag unless I am messing or farming smaller stuff. I really have appreciated all the help you guys have left. One thing though that has not been answered is what do you personally prefer to use on your DNC. I know the math is important and getting good acc against colibri is nice, but I merit on RDM if I want/need merits or I solo on BLU, so what is your preference of daggers and swords. All opinions on weapon choices welcome!
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#32 Jan 08 2009 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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Any thing that doesn't evade much, joyeuse off hand is going to shine. Accuracy is the only issue at hand when comparing it in merit or end game situations, and if that isn't an issue then joyeuse off hand is the best option. TP gain can't be beat using that sword (unless you have ridill or something, duh).

Other then that, I off-hand CUK for the low delay to boost TP gain, at least until I get ermine's tail. Then I might go Tail/Jambiya, Azoth/Tail, or Tail/Joyeuse, depending on situation and my current gil situation >_>...
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Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#33 Jan 08 2009 at 7:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It's pretty much a given that you'll be using sushi with Joyeuse


Or daggers and haste gear with meat.
#34 Jan 08 2009 at 11:01 PM Rating: Good
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Davrost wrote:
Souji, those are much more respectable numbers. I only made a fuss about it because Colibri are a TERRIBLE way to calculate or parse ANYTHING, because their ungodly evasion skews results in generally unrealistic directions. Most things just aren't that evasive.


I really only see a point to calculate for accuracy against stuff you'll merit against. Gods and HNM will generally be evasive, whereas solo and campaign and low man will generally be less evasive. However, as merit mobs go, Colibri aren't that evasive. They're about middle ground. Mamool can range to below or greatly above(Colibri are 339 max, Mamool 434 max, ~318 for lowest mage, and up to 344 for middle ground ones like BST). I don't know the stats for Troll, but I recall people mentioning they can be fairly evasive as well. I think colibri are a great monster to calc on, due to the popularity, and the low def/middleground evade. Parsing gets skewed because their actions lower the damage of the best dds however, so I agree there. The evasive perception probably comes from the fact that people who would normally use sushi do not, because they don't want to use food that will get eaten.

Davrost wrote:
I do have to correct you on one thing, though. Joyeuse DOES stack with DA/TA gear and traits, but only on the condition that Joyeuse's native DA did not occur. If the randomization sets out a single attack, THEN traits come into play. Saber Dance, therefore, gives Joyeuse a roughly 75% DA rate (50% for the initial DA check, 50% for the single hit check should that fail) upon Saber Dance's initial activation (77.5% with Brutal), dwindling to, if I'm not mistaken, 55% (57.5% with Brutal) just before it wears off. I'm not entirely sure how that affects Dagger/Dagger vs. Dagger/Joyeuse calculations, but it's definitely something worth mentioning.


Hmm, this one is alot harder. I'm not sure how to calc it, and while that seems correct, I'm having reservations. Possibly just because of weapons with more than two different types of attacks, like Soboro, where adding more DA decreases two sides, one of which was 3A. Well, to start, if it DOES work that way, then the calcs remain the same, it'll affect Dag/Dag the same it affects Dag/Joy. I guess I'm just seeing it as more complicated than it is.
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#35 Jan 09 2009 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I think it's partly the lack of sushi and partly that colibri really are just naturally more evasive than a lot of merit mobs like puks, wyverns... anything-in-Caedarva-not-that-anyone-merits-there-anymore. You're right that they're a popular choice, though, much to the dismay of several thousand FFXI players, myself included.

We're probably both overthinking the Saber Dance thing XD
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Character Name: Davrost
Race: Tarutaru
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Current Job: BLU
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=391454#FFXI_Characters
Relic: SMN - 6/6, WAR - 6/6, BST - 5/5, BLM - 6/6, PLD: 2/5, MNK - 1/5, THF - 1/5, DNC - 6/6, BLU - 6/6, RDM - 1/5, SCH - 1/5, DRK - 2/5, WHM - 1/5
Notable Crafts: WW: 73.1+2, AL: 60.0, CO: 60.0, LC: 60.0+1, CC: 54.3+1
#36 Jan 09 2009 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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Davrost wrote:
I think it's partly the lack of sushi and partly that colibri really are just naturally more evasive than a lot of merit mobs like puks, wyverns... anything-in-Caedarva-not-that-anyone-merits-there-anymore. You're right that they're a popular choice, though, much to the dismay of several thousand FFXI players, myself included.

We're probably both overthinking the Saber Dance thing XD

Ah right, I completely forgot about Caedarva. After playing RDM and BRD to 75, I hate that place, with a passion. I mostly merit on DRG, and occasionally on BRD and NIN, so I'm usually either up against Mamool or Birds. Puk's I view as fodder between mamool pulls, so I don't count them much. I wasn't sure on Skoffin evade, I'm usually BRD when I'm at Mamool Ja Staging point. So to me, those are the usual types I'd calc against, and what I consider as what matters. I'd think DNCs would hate mire as much as me though, with the amnesia thing.

Also, still touting crab sushi. I think they're awesome, I was dreading Colibri before as THF and NIN(wasn't even planning to really merit on NIN) then found out about these. Tried em on my NIN, had an awesome time, I got 88.5% acc without brd(we had 2 brds though, so parse had acc at 94%) and it cost me 10k total for 23k exp over the course of ~1:20(little less). I'm the type who has to use food no matter what, so I always spam mithkabobs normally. This sushi costing the same price is very good news for my 1h classes.
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#37 Jan 10 2009 at 9:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I just found out about them, too. Great stuff.

As far as wyverns, I'm not terribly sure myself (as it's been ages since I've been to MJSP, last time I was there was the party I hit DNC75 in and I don't think we fought any). Most parties are afraid to fight them. I don't remember them being painfully evasive unless they put up Wind Wall, though.
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Character Name: Davrost
Race: Tarutaru
Server: Gilgamesh
Current Job: BLU
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=391454#FFXI_Characters
Relic: SMN - 6/6, WAR - 6/6, BST - 5/5, BLM - 6/6, PLD: 2/5, MNK - 1/5, THF - 1/5, DNC - 6/6, BLU - 6/6, RDM - 1/5, SCH - 1/5, DRK - 2/5, WHM - 1/5
Notable Crafts: WW: 73.1+2, AL: 60.0, CO: 60.0, LC: 60.0+1, CC: 54.3+1
#38 Jan 10 2009 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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In addition to this I would mind seeing some One Hand builds for HNM and things with high def. I would like to see what a DNC/WAR or DNC/SAM looks like if you guys have tried it before. Also considering DNC/DRK might have some potential. Im guessing shield is Airy Buckler hands down :P
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#39 Jan 27 2009 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I just tested Koggelmander intimidation rate (albeit only on EP spiders) just now.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=16;mid=1229535166129144976;page=2;howmany=50#m1233082585264409148

If the intimidation rate doesn't change much as the level goes up, it seems that Ermine's Tail is a superb weapon for DNC soloing.
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#40 Jan 27 2009 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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Why use a cobra knife over at least a Behemoth NQ. Not knocking those that do, but I don't really get it? Compared to others.
Also I'm dieing for an Azoth and Ermine also drooolll :)
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#42 Jan 27 2009 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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rdmdontdie wrote:
However with Saber Dance all bets are off, just go with big daggers, Joy is nice to have if you have it, but once you get the ~30% kicker from Saber Dance DA It really loses a lot of its luster.


I keep seeing people say that SD somehow nullifies the DA rate of Joyeuse, but unless it somehow works differently than any other DA in the game, Joyeuse should still be swinging way more than anything else under the effect of SD. I can't test personally because DNC merits are low on my list of priorities, but surely SOMEONE can come in here and either say "Yeah, Joyeuse has a 55-75% DA rate during SD" or "No, Joyeuse still just has a 50% DA rate." I have faith that the former will hold true, with Joyeuse holding a 55-75% DA rate under SD while daggers hold 10-50%.
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Character Name: Davrost
Race: Tarutaru
Server: Gilgamesh
Current Job: BLU
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/poster.html?user=391454#FFXI_Characters
Relic: SMN - 6/6, WAR - 6/6, BST - 5/5, BLM - 6/6, PLD: 2/5, MNK - 1/5, THF - 1/5, DNC - 6/6, BLU - 6/6, RDM - 1/5, SCH - 1/5, DRK - 2/5, WHM - 1/5
Notable Crafts: WW: 73.1+2, AL: 60.0, CO: 60.0, LC: 60.0+1, CC: 54.3+1
#43 Jan 27 2009 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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It has a higher activation rate, but it is still only with the lower acc and atk of a Sword. And that is only for the first minute or so of SD, then it drops down to barely larger then normal joytoy activation.
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#45 Jan 28 2009 at 7:30 AM Rating: Decent
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You do have decreasing returns, which makes it sad on a lower acc weapon. I just would never set up my gear in order to keep a joytoy in my off hand slot. There are so many better options in the lvl 75 range that are just awesome, while still giving us the max acc/atk we can have on the weapons.
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#46 Jan 28 2009 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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This is a reply to rdmdontdie. I've been meaning to reply but I usually only go on the forums at work, and I've been in training keeping me away from PC. Anyway,
first, as to the delay issue, you're doing a few things of.f DW and Haste is a reduction, so when you truncate, you truncate the reduction, not the result. Therefore, the way we do it, you should be doing ceiling instead of floor.

Of course, this only changes the result slightly, so the main thing would be the Haste Samba. I wasn't aware of this, but do you have proof? If it's applied to the weapon first directly, then it should reduce your tp like DW does. This should be incredibly easy to test actually, just get a delay range where you get 5.0 tp a hit, then apply haste samba. If your delay comes down, then it applies first.

I don't believe this is the case however, or SAMs would not want a DNC in their party. SAMs strive for a 6-hit build, and a reduction in TP would kill that, lowering their damage more than (atleast an unmerited) haste samba would probably help. Going from 7-hit to 6-hit is a 16.7% increase in WS frequency, and their WS tend to make up 60% or more of their damage, so it's basically ~10% increase in DoT. Fully merited it may be worth the trade off, but otherwise, I'd be upset as a SAM. I haven't seen any complaints about it, which is where I have my reservations. If I get the testing conditions, I'll try it myself. Alternatively, if you or someone else can do the same test and show it as proof, I'll accept it.

___________________________________________________________________________

Now, to address some other points of yours and others in here... first choice of weapon and food: Weapon was chosen because someone else suggested it. Personally, I'd never use CUK. As a THF, I'm used to choosing daggers for performance overall rather than just tp generation, so I'd go BK+1 2x or with Jamibiya, until I could get Azoth/Ermine.

As for food, I chose crab sushi specifically because it was cheap and easy for everyone to use. As a RDM, you can use bream sushi +1 on birds because you probably don't take as much hate. A DNC probably wouldn't as well. However, people who don't take much hate still avoid using food on Colibri, which, with the addition of crab sushi, I think is unacceptable. I play with NIN, THF, DRG, all classes where I either easily have hate a majority of the time or strive to take hate as much as possible(with THF evade and shadows, no reason not to take hate. I never TAWS, only solo and SAWS, unless TAWS will kill the bird). Hence, on THF and NIN I use crab sushi and on DRG mithkabobs. I'm not going to calc to a higher standard than I use, which isn't too expensive.

Lets hope this doesn't look like too horrid a WoT when I post...


Edited, Jan 28th 2009 1:34pm by Souji
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#48 Jan 28 2009 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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rdmdontdie wrote:
Souji no I made a mistake with my understanding of how the website worded it. It works just like SAM, which in the end it does not make any real difference in fact I think doing them all at once gives you the same rate. I also noticed however you didn't include Haste the spell I don't know if it was an oversight or not, or you just don't see it often. I know I have to ask mages to haste me which is kind of irritating sometimes since I am supporting them. Anyhow I did some looking into it TP is not decreased so it does not work like DW and therefore must be lumped in with the remaining haste.
Ah. Thanks for checking, good to have it clear. About my not adding haste in, I think I just neglected to add it from laziness, not sure. While I do have a harder time getting haste in parties recently, it should be expected. I don't remember the exact reason.
rdmdontdie wrote:
Also in regards to the BS+1 ever since I started on my RDM melee career I have leveled cooking to make it myself (far cheeper that way.) As for hate pulling, just like any job RDM and DNC both take hate when they WS (due to the nature of tankless TP burn style.) Birds ocasionally Nab my food, or take my TP (why I wait a few seconds before RF on DNC just incase), or ram a PF down my throat. Personally the reason I use Bream +1 is solely for the use of the joytoy, for reasons outlined above. Droping WS's (back to back sometimes depending on WS TP return and Subsequent attack round +RF) and having "free" TP from the Joy DA is just to much for me to pass up.
Yeah, I'm sure if you have cooking and fishing(not sure if you do) it would be alot cheaper. I was kinda just going with what I can expect people to use, even if I were able to afford something better(I'm pretty bad at making money so I'd rather use crab, but I could possibly afford to use squid with some extra work).
rdmdontdie wrote:
This also stems from my RDM melee where in certain camps I would /DNC for ACC increase and free erase (hi2u dirty mamools), I found the DA on Joyeuse then allowed me to keep "free" TP to apply Samba, do some Cures etc. If SE knew what was what they would make a Joyeuse equivelent dagger (ie. one with decent DMG unlike Mkris).

This is the part of the discussion where I have less of the experience, from a DD only prospective, Dag/Dag will beat Dag/Joy even with a specialized setup, if only for the ATK. WS will be close to the same, but the increase frequency shouldn't make up for the damage, because classes like THF, DNC, NIN, MNK all have a much higher % of damage from melee than they do WS. My NIN, Melee/WS ratio, is between 80/20 and 70/30; THF is usually around 60/40, and MNKs are usually similar to my NIN stats. I can only assume DNC is probably the same, especially since you'll use tp up for heals and other things along the way which will increase time spent meleeing vs WSing.

However, if you want to be able to have extra tp in short amounts of time, and are not in a group with a large amount of haste making haste more worth it, there may be merit in using a acc heavy joy setup. I personally wouldn't still I think, but at that point alone I could agree it's a choice matter.

edit: Moved a response to a more appropriate location


Edited, Jan 28th 2009 3:23pm by Souji
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#49 Jan 28 2009 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, a few things I'm just gonna throw out since some people don't seem to realize it.

Haste, no matter what the form, is always applied at the end. So Haste Samba would be applied at the end of any delay calculation, and also does -not- affect TP return.

Secondly, SD on top of joyeuse -does- have decreased returns because you can not double attack on a joyeuses double attack; so the only time SD has a chance to proc is when joytoy is hitting only once. So for example, if joytoy has a 50% DA rate, then the chance for saber dance to proc is only present during the other 50%. And if SD procs 50% of the time, that means in total, for the first minute or so in duration, Joytoy has a 75% DA proc, 50% native plus 25% (50% of 50%= 25% of the original value). The joytoy will always swing more often, but it's lower acc and atk is the issue.

And just a fun fact, parsing myself in merit parties on non-flying mobs with double dagger (Jambiya + CUF), my melee/ws damage ratio is about 1:1 lol.

Edited, Jan 28th 2009 3:52pm by Salodin
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Bsphil wrote:
Rana does his own sh*t. He's edgy and 3-hitty. He'll walk up to merit mobs and go, so what I don't have an attack bonus, I'm @#%^ing rana. I'm a black hole of awesome, absorbing all dimensions of win from all around me. That's right I @#%^ing open darkness for your gekko. Without me you'd be a @#%^ing nobody. You'd be blowing PUPs for party invites. Rana is the alpha and the omega, if by alpha and omega, you mean the first and third hits of rana.
#50 Jan 28 2009 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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Salodin wrote:
And just a fun fact, parsing myself in merit parties on non-flying mobs with double dagger (Jambiya + CUF), my melee/ws damage ratio is about 1:1 lol.


Thats pretty surprising from a DW job, but I don't have DNC that level so wouldn't know. Does anyone else see the same thing from their parses? Would be nice to see a few different people show them, so we can see an average.
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