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Pup sucks in Zergs. This is a fact.Follow

#1 Jul 20 2012 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#3 Jul 21 2012 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
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Zelduh wrote:
I can't believe I rustled your jimmies enough for you to post this useless wall of text. Needless to say too long, didn't read. You can continue believing whatever you want, as can I :)

Read this, read every last word of it, or forever forfeit your right to talk about pup and have any credibility, you unrepentant ***********
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#4 Jul 21 2012 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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You can continue believing whatever you want, as can I :)


Given that he thinks that facts are something that can be invalidated by beliefs, I'd say he didn't have any credibility to begin with.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#5 Jul 21 2012 at 2:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Zelduh's post are meant to read around also, guys a douche.

I mostly lurk these forum's and have used Jinte's guides and posts since i leveled it to 75, back when that was cap. Always been detailed and backed up. Neither can be said from Zelduh.

Besides the fact that Zelduh refuses to engage in any civil debate + has the "I know my god is the 1, cause i believe so additude". Makes it a waste of breath typing energy to talk to him.

What debating zelduh is like


So safe your energy, and keep up the posts.

Edited, Jul 21st 2012 4:19am by OOOFloW
#6 Jul 21 2012 at 2:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Jinte....that post should be required reading for everyone playing FFXI imo. **** good job!

The only things i disagree with

1) The bit about you being arrogant. I don't see it. Yes, you have a way of getting your points across, but that's cause you know the score more times than not and can't be assed to **** about. You and Anza are the dude's i look up when i need some tidbit of info on PUP i can't remember. I actually keep premium just so i can do that. And trust me, coming from me that's very high praise.indeed. So no, not arrogant.

and

2) I've said it before, Natey contributed quite a bit to the PUP knowledge base(no denying that), but that guy WAS an arrogant prick. The way he conversed with ppl was beyond rude. While i agree that no one should downplay the work he put in, i think we should try to not forget the rest of the Nateypoo package. He could come up with a cure for cancer and i'd STILL feel the urge to rap him a few times in the ole Jack Johnson....who am i kidding? I'd beat the ever-loving **** out of him if i ever saw him in the street and knew for certain it was him.

Again though, VERY good OP!!!

----------------------------------------------------

@Zelduh

I really hope you suck it up and read what Jinte wrote out. That's scripture there buddy. All of it. And its laid out alot nicer and respectful than i personally think you warrant.

And this post isn't about hero worship or anything like that. Incidentally i don't have any heros, never have really-don't believe in them. I'm writing it because i support the info and message its trying to convey. I've told you point blank to STFU in the past, but have never given a **** enough to actually try to articulate why you should(STFU). The OP gets a crap-load of cool points in my book for actually trying to get you to see that current situation of PUP for what it really is.
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#8 Jul 21 2012 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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OOOFloW wrote:
Zelduh's post are meant to read around also, guys a douche.

I mostly lurk these forum's and have used Jinte's guides and posts since i leveled it to 75, back when that was cap. Always been detailed and backed up. Neither can be said from Zelduh.

Besides the fact that Zelduh refuses to engage in any civil debate + has the "I know my god is the 1, cause i believe so additude". Makes it a waste of breath typing energy to talk to him.

What debating zelduh is like


So safe your energy, and keep up the posts.

Edited, Jul 21st 2012 4:19am by OOOFloW

As an ex-catholic, I lol'd. Hard.

spiritreaverdiablos the Hand wrote:
Jinte....that post should be required reading for everyone playing FFXI imo. **** good job!

The only things i disagree with

1) The bit about you being arrogant. I don't see it. Yes, you have a way of getting your points across, but that's cause you know the score more times than not and can't be assed to **** about. You and Anza are the dude's i look up when i need some tidbit of info on PUP i can't remember. I actually keep premium just so i can do that. And trust me, coming from me that's very high praise.indeed. So no, not arrogant.

and

2) I've said it before, Natey contributed quite a bit to the PUP knowledge base(no denying that), but that guy WAS an arrogant prick. The way he conversed with ppl was beyond rude. While i agree that no one should downplay the work he put in, i think we should try to not forget the rest of the Nateypoo package. He could come up with a cure for cancer and i'd STILL feel the urge to rap him a few times in the ole Jack Johnson....who am i kidding? I'd beat the ever-loving sh*t out of him if i ever saw him in the street and knew for certain it was him.

Again though, VERY good OP!!!


Eh, I'm a lot more arrogant than I let on, I'm actually a lot like Natey, I'm just able to reign it in most of the time. Natey's generally sour attitude was my point though, love him or hate him, you knew he was right.

Zelduh wrote:
Sorry, not reading something from someone who has extreme anger issues and can't make a single point without childishly berating someone and swearing every 5 seconds. I don't argue with immature children. If he calms down and condenses his "argument" to less than a 500-page autobiography, I may pay it more attention.

Ok, firstly, I'm the last person to accuse of having anger issues, anyone who's familiar with my posting style knows that I love melodrama, I'm not so petty as to get angry over someone disagreeing with me on the internet Smiley: laugh. Secondly, swearing is not childish, everyone in my family, after the age of like, 10, even my 70 year old grandmother and her five siblings, swear about as much as I do. It's a cultural thing and has to do with language usage, and it's rather ignorant of you to simply assume swearing = childish. Also, the vast majority of my post is not even ******* directed at you. Thirdly, this is EXACTLY what you've been asking for. You wanted the Logic and Math behind why pup sucks in zergs. That's exactly what this post is, and you know **** well that math posts are always massive by their very nature. Finally, how ******* old are you to continue to call me a child? Do you realize how pathetic the "I disagree with you, there for you must be a little kid" argument is? I'm disgusted, honestly, and the only reason I'm still ******* trying to get through to you is the sliver of hope that you might just be ******* redeemable, because you're a pup, from this community, and I do everything within my ******* power to like alla's pups, even when they make me want to punch them in the face.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#9 Jul 21 2012 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.


=

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Sorry, not reading something from someone who has extreme anger issues and can't make a single point without childishly berating someone and swearing every 5 seconds. I don't argue with immature children. If he calms down and condenses his "argument" to less than a 500-page autobiography, I may pay it more attention.


I admit to having been a "PUP can do anything you can do better PUP". However after playing the job for 4 years I have through my own efforts proven this mindset to be untrue. Sure I've had my moments of who's the I'm a moron now gaining the respect of LS/PTY members but in the end PUP is a Hybrid that given the chance and the right circumstances can and will shine. Though more often than not I know w/o asking that I will not be gearing PUP for an event because I have something more suited for the job available. PUP is by far my Favorite Job as it requires me to focus and pay attention, just not button smash my way through. I play the job with the skills JA's and JT's available to it and don't concern myself with why I don't have Desperate Blows, Phalanx II, Impetus, Triple Attack ... available. I just don't I'm a PUP and I use the tools available to Shine at my job.

Jinte lives in Realville where PUP is concerned accepts the facts and helps develop viable methods for getting the most out of PUP based on the facts.

PUP is PUP no amount of QQ will change that.
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#11 Jul 21 2012 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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******* lol
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#12 Jul 21 2012 at 8:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd even generalize, in a few words, what Jinte says: PUP (as well as most, if not all pet DDs) suffers in high-buff environments, whether the buffing comes from spells/JAs, like when preparing for a Zerg, or it comes from an endless stream of temps that only benefit the master, (that's VW summed up for you). VW also has the problem of too many FU AoE attacks that can only be reasonably managed with Fanatics/Fools... and of course the Automaton won't receive their effects.

In lowman situations, where self-maintenance matters the most, WE RULE. I wish there was more endgame events that covered that... Maybe the new dungeon crawl system? The 15 minutes timer probably will lead to Embrava and plowing through mobs with heavy DDs, but maybe there's hope.
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#13 Jul 22 2012 at 6:41 AM Rating: Good
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I think it would be shorter/easier to make list of what pup would need to compete in zerg type events.

1) An actual melee dd frame (sam, war, mnk etc).
2) Buffs on master to affect the pet
3) All haste gear on master to affect pet
4) Manevuers to last for 5-10 minutes


There is just too much working against PUP if you think we can come close to the usefulness of other jobs. With max haste PUP and mnk can reach the same DLY (20%) but mnk has more dmg, kick attacks, more gear options with DA, TA, QA etc. So even if you add our dinky pets into the mix, the extra swings from an unbuffed, no maneuver pet, with **** for haste isnt going to close the gap in a zerg cituation
#15 Jul 22 2012 at 8:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Are Autos affected by Fanatic's Drink or Perfect Defense?

No? Okay, I guess it's pretty safe to assume that the Auto's contribution to damage is a close approximation of 0 when zerging then. There's no need to go through a rigorous mathematical derivation of why PUP is inferior to many other jobs that call themselves "melee" in a zerg. You just have to point out that they're a gimpy monk without the auto and that nothing survives for 10 seconds without PD in any kind of real zerg these days.
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#16 Jul 22 2012 at 9:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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It sound to me like somebody's been off soloing 75 content for too long. If you understood game mechanics at 99, or even how a zerg works these days, we wouldn't be having this thread.

Here's an illustrative question: How much damage does a dead puppet deal?

Quote:
Sorry to say, but you're doing it wrong =/ 1 or 2 base damage and kick attacks isn't going to suddenly do more damage than the whole pet.


The thing you fail to understand is that the seemingly small gaps between a PUP and a MNK in terms of gear and skill become magnified against higher level targets, especially as level correction comes into play. Couple that with the fact that most high-level targets have powerful AoE attacks that your pet cannot withstand, and that any skillchain damage you're counting on from pet/master synergy is entirely moot with other melees involved...

In other words, you are the one who is not looking at the big picture and considering all of the variables involved. But by all means, continue with your jackassery; it has a fair bit of comedic value, if nothing else.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#17 Jul 22 2012 at 11:13 AM Rating: Default
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OOOFloW wrote:
Zelduh's post are meant to read around also, guys a douche.

I mostly lurk these forum's and have used Jinte's guides and posts since i leveled it to 75, back when that was cap. Always been detailed and backed up. Neither can be said from Zelduh.

Besides the fact that Zelduh refuses to engage in any civil debate + has the "I know my god is the 1, cause i believe so additude". Makes it a waste of breath typing energy to talk to him.

What debating zelduh is like


So safe your energy, and keep up the posts.

Edited, Jul 21st 2012 4:19am by OOOFloW



Funny pic, but comeon, Leave the Christian aspect out of it. I hate that kind of broad-brushed Judgment whether its from Christians or Athiests or whatever group you want to point it from and to. Zelduh is showing that track record.

Its really painful when someone "on your side" (likes pup job) does more damage to your argument than the ones opposed to you.
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#18 Jul 22 2012 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
The thing you fail to understand is that the seemingly small gaps between a PUP and a MNK in terms of gear and skill become magnified against higher level targets, especially as level correction comes into play. Couple that with the fact that most high-level targets have powerful AoE attacks that your pet cannot withstand, and that any skillchain damage you're counting on from pet/master synergy is entirely moot with other melees involved...

In other words, you are the one who is not looking at the big picture and considering all of the variables involved. But by all means, continue with your jackassery; it has a fair bit of comedic value, if nothing else.


Not to defend Zelduh very much but gear and skill difference nowadays aren't going to causing massive differences between a MNK and a PUP unlike when those things were a lot less plentiful. It's going to be situation specific and obviously a zerg is where PUP falls behind. But it's not going to be the values of the just the PUP and the MNK itself though. It's going to be the outside sources that'll be the issue.

I can only imagine what would happen if pets could get buffs from bards and everyone.
#19 Jul 22 2012 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Pup sucks in Zergs. This is a fact.


Maybe YOURS does.

*gigglesnort*
#20 Jul 22 2012 at 11:18 PM Rating: Good
Shouta wrote:


I can only imagine what would happen if pets could get buffs from bards and everyone.


Vanadiel would implode from all the shut out jobs suddenly being stupidly powerful over the favorites.

Although pup would still chug a bit in voidwatch since fanatics drink isn't aoe. Drg would feel no difference in void, however their dps would go up a bit it other zerg situations. Beasts would shoot up but not as much as summoner and pup, however pup would benefit the most since ours is the only pet that can WS freely.

Shrug, maybe it's time to pull that dead horse out onto SE front lawn to see if their f#%^ giving machine can revive this horse like it did the other ones.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2012 1:18am by Laxedrane
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#22 Jul 23 2012 at 4:37 AM Rating: Default
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That kind of post ought to merit a ban.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#23 Jul 23 2012 at 4:51 AM Rating: Excellent
Okay, first off, drop it with any talk of religion, homosexuality, or things along those lines. I refuse to allow this to go into a discussion that's better left for OoT or the Asylum. This goes for everyone in here, Zelduh, Jinte, anyone else involved in this. I don't care how fervent you are in your beliefs on what the job can or cannot do, keep it focused on FFXI.

Zelduh, I ask you this. As someone that's played Pup and has a fair grasp on its basic functions, how are you able to keep your Automaton alive against mobs during a zerg? Thinking primarily in a Voidwatch situation (which is where most zergs nowadays take place), even with staggers, melee need a constant supply of Fanatic's Drinks to survive the damage that the monster would otherwise be dealing to them. Obviously automatons don't have that, and while you do have things like Shock Absorber, Equalizer, or Steam Jacket will help, the monster is going to be doing enough damage to where things like that will likely just delay the inevitable.

You won't be able to keep the Automaton out of AoE range either since the deployment range for Sharpshot frame where it remains stationary and doesn't move in to try and melee is still well within the AoE range of most monsters attacks. Same goes for Spiritreaver.

If you're using Role Reversal to keep your automaton alive, that's just causing you to run the risk of getting killed yourself, and the delay in attacking that you'd rack up from using Healing Salves or using Repair is just going to add up as time goes on. You're already going to be dealing with the same delays that something like Monk will as far as normal job abilities and popping temp items for yourself, but to include the delay for Maneuvers, the delay for additional Temp items that you'll probably need to be popping constantly otherwise your Automaton will die and die quickly against some of the more powerful Voidwatch monsters, and you see where Puppetmaster would start falling behind substantially.

If we're talking about one of the other zerg situations and not Voidwatch, where something like Perfect Defense is necessary rather than a stream of Fanatic's Drinks, then your automaton is going to die even quicker, since you won't have those streams of Healing Salves and the monster won't have long periods where it's terrorized. The same problems are going to apply as far as it still being in AoE range, and the Defense Down effect on Armor Shatterer is probably not going to come into play since there's likely going to be another job there (A dragoon perhaps) who can just tag it with Angon right at the start. Unless you start the fight with full Fire Maneuvers for Heat Capacitor so that it starts with enough TP for a weaponskill, the monster you're fighting is likely not even going to last long enough for your automaton to build enough TP on its own.

If you start off with full Fire, then you're going to in turn need to take the time out of your own melee cycle to pop a Water or Earth maneuver to give your Automaton an effect to increase its survivability, which gives the other melees a chance to get off a good weaponskill or two.

It's not a matter so much of the skill points involved, so much as it is that Puppetmaster is a job that is so job ability heavy that its delays slow it down in a zerg fight.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2012 6:57am by Vlorsutes
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#24 Jul 23 2012 at 6:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zelduh wrote:
Sorry but if your puppet dies doing a "zerg", you're doing it wrong. Once again, lrn2pup. And once again, the puppet does NOT need BRD or COR buffs.


I'll keep it simple: We have provided reasons as to why PUP doesn't work in zergs, the main one being having the automaton dead fast due to the high aoe damage present. You claim that keeping the automaton alive and maintaining an offensive in a zerg situation is possible, but haven't explained how.

My question is simple: Zelduh, what do YOU do to keep your automation alive in high-end zerg situations, while maintaining an offensive on the NM? Examples would be awesome, too.

If you reply to this, either we all learn something amazing from you, or you are proven wrong. I'll be happy in both cases.
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#25 Jul 23 2012 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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This whole thread reminds me of the issues with xiozen claim that you can tell the difference between all the different animators and if you couldn't you fail at pup.
#26 Jul 23 2012 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Idk much about much. But that OP. That is a crapton of text aimed at an issue that maybe 4 people care about. Yet i am bored at work and it appears well written. Sigh. *puts on gas mask, riot gear, jetpack* I'm goin in!
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