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Possibility of creating an up-to-date Puppetmaster guideFollow

#28 Apr 23 2012 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry late reply as i missed the post

Camwin wrote:
Spirit, I have a question. Can I be a true lover of PUP, as well as making it out to be omnipotent? I use factual evidence and do not antagonize!!! Please?!

By the way that was the longest post I've seen of yours in a while and, was well written and didn't get overly ranty :).



Yes, of course you may Smiley: lol
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#30 Apr 26 2012 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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Lady Jinte wrote:
Pelamir wrote:
5. Playing the job - Useful macros, how to use merits JAs, maneuver combinations. How to solo: which sub and frame to use, which types of mobs can and can't be soloed. Explain how to plow through old content (like Missions). Briefly cover how PUP functions in a traditional party (for inclusiveness and the rare instances that actually happens).

Pelamir wrote:
9. Useful tricks/lesser known stuff - Explain fast ways to claim a mob (mainly via subs), how enmity dumping works, how to force deaggro, oddball (mismatched) head/frame combos, hate-free nuking. If anyone can think of other secret techniques of the PUP trade, please mention it for inclusion.

Combine those two. I know I said I was going to cover the order later, but yea, combine those two into one section. This section also needs to be both vague and detailed at the same time, though, since in addition to what you've got, it should basically cover what pup's over all capabilities are, the various roles it can fill, and how it fills them.


One really useful portion of this area would be "how do I make the mage puppet work??" Understanding how to "pull the strings" and manipulate the mage frames' AI to do what you want it to do is complicated and unique to the job. In my view, once a player learns this they can really "get" the automaton part of the job. Understanding how to force certain spells (e.g. silence on a mage mob), how to avoid certain spells (no thx Aspir-Drain), loading up on ice maneuvers to nuke, having the puppet cast then quickly DAD to get a second spell right away - these are the things that separate the pros from the people who don't fully get it.

How to gear the master is fairly similar to any other 1H/H2H DD. Using VE is easy. Using SS is easy provided you clearly note that it should almost always be played like a 2004-era RNG (melee for more TP = more WS). Using Spiritreaver and actually getting it to nuke when you want it, heal when you want it, use the right enfeebles... that's an art.

Pelamir wrote:
8. Recommended gear - How to acquire AF3+1/+2 sets, how to acquire Relic sets, specific pieces that are good and how to acquire them (Brutal Earring, for example). Discuss TP, haste, pet haste, eva, and healing pieces/sets. Which pieces are good for gearswap macros (STR [or DEX for Shijin Spiral] for WS macros, Bufoon's Collar for maneuvers, etc). Which stats to look for when selecting gear. Which Magian Trial weapons are worth obtaining.
Lady Jinte wrote:
Be really, really, really careful when you make this, because it's really @#%^ing difficult to do both a gear guide and a gearing guide at the same time, and not sound incredibly biased towards certain things (I triied, my gear guide initially had comments on why gear was included, but I realized towards the end that they all had a pretty heavy hand towards my personal pup playstyle, so I had to go back and revise the entire thing.) It also takes @#%^ing forever and is really ******* tedious to make it not look terrible, visually. Might suggest either separating them, or simplifying it to a pure Gearing guide. (Note: Gear vs Gearing: Gear = gear, Gearing = why you wear what you wear)


Good comments. One way to do it would be to give some general gearing concepts at the start, then just do a pure list and let the players use it as a resource. Maybe highlight the standard expected pieces or undisputed must-haves in bold or something (Cirque+2 pieces, Brutal Earring, AF/AF+1 gloves, these kinds of things).

In the stickied older guide, I like Jinte's way of using color-coded symbols to show which types of roles each piece of gear fills.

Zelduh wrote:
I don't think PUP is for you bro

Not to derail the productive discussion, but I just saw this today and I can't let it pass without saying I got a huuuuuuuge laugh out of that being said to JINTE of all people. One way to ensure your credibility goes from low to absolute zero is to say something like that to one of the all time most helpful people in the English-speaking PUP community.

All-time classic PUP forum ridiculousness, and that's really saying something with some of the stuff we've seen here over the years.

Edited, Apr 26th 2012 3:09pm by Anza
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#35 May 02 2012 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
Deleted a lot of posts for obvious reasons.
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#36 May 03 2012 at 3:03 AM Rating: Decent
So is this guide now somewhere for people to read?
#37 May 03 2012 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
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LeilaniWildfire wrote:
So is this guide now somewhere for people to read?

quite obviously not.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#38 May 04 2012 at 2:58 AM Rating: Decent
That's actually a huge shame, I hope someone takes up on this at some point.

Or does someone know where a PUP now 99 could get some help for the new gear, roles, AI changes, new attachments etc.? I loved my PUP @ 75 but I seem a bit lost now and dont know where to start.

Edited, May 4th 2012 5:05am by LeilaniWildfire
#39 May 07 2012 at 10:40 PM Rating: Good
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LeilaniWildfire wrote:
That's actually a huge shame, I hope someone takes up on this at some point.

Or does someone know where a PUP now 99 could get some help for the new gear, roles, AI changes, new attachments etc.? I loved my PUP @ 75 but I seem a bit lost now and dont know where to start.

Edited, May 4th 2012 5:05am by LeilaniWildfire

The guide is under construction, which is what I was saying was obvious (if you read the thread, anyway). Until then, just ask the forum the questions you have (if you're going to ask a lot, keep it to a single thread, don't make a thousand new ones, please, that drives me nuts, and no one wants a nuttier jinte), and we'll answer your questions as we find them, just remember that this forum tends to move a bit slowly
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#40 May 08 2012 at 6:00 AM Rating: Good
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Slow my tookus! I check this forum at least 6 times a day.

And yes I have a life, but I also have a smartphone and often get bored enough to check. Because I love pup and the official forum is a joke.
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#41 May 14 2012 at 10:43 PM Rating: Good
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Figured I'd offer a brief update. I can confirm that the guide is still under construction. Unfortunately, real life has been kicking my *** lately--a close family member has been in the hospital recently, I've been working on starting a new website with some colleagues of mine, and Im still working a full time job until that gets off the ground.

I've barely had time to even play lately, but please have patience--I am trying to ensure the guide will be worth whatever wait there will be.
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#42 May 15 2012 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good
No worries Pelamir. Real life must take precedence always. You've taken on quite the challenge, work it at your own pace.
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One of my server's brightest minds... wrote:
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Quite possibly the DUMBEST thing i've ever read.
#43Bhujerba, Posted: Jun 03 2012 at 5:32 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) waiting on the guide.
#44 Jun 13 2012 at 10:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Update on the guide:

Life has settled down for the moment, so fortunately I've had a lot more time to work on it lately. At this point, the current plan is as follows:
1. Finish typing the guide in its entirety (as in fill out all chapters).
2. Proofread and make corrections or changes where necessary (typos/grammatical errors, swap stuff around or add/remove info if needed)
3. After these two initial steps, I'll post the rough draft onto the Test Server... er, Pastebin and share the link in this thread. I HIGHLY encourage my fellow PUPs to read the guide once it's posted, and please post ANY feedback on it in this thread, whether that ends up being correcting wrong information, making arguments for opinions or ideas not expressed in the guide, suggesting additions or clarifications, small stuff like pointing out missed typos, just saying "Kudos, you explained *insert-whatever-here* perfectly," or anything else that needs mentioning. I make no claims to be the best PUP around or even anywhere near the level of Jinte, Spiritreaver, or any of the other more knowledgeable PUPs on this or any other forum. By pointing out what's wrong AND what's right with the guide, it will help ensure the final product is of the highest quality, which is what I aim to achieve. All I ask is that negative criticism is polite instead of being a jerk, and that you source your information when possible (obviously things like general community consensus regarding opinions are impossible to source, but if it was, say, something that BG tested, please link to BG's data).
4. I will make changes to the guide in correspondence with the feedback given.
5. Repeat 3-4 until the guide is generally agreed on.
6. I'll make a new thread for it and post it in its entirety on this forum.

One last thing: I realize the guide is taking a long time, and I'm well aware that people are anticipating its release. To those patiently waiting, again, I apologize for the wait, and look forward to releasing the best guide I can make for you. However, to those impatiently waiting, rudeness will not spur me to finish it faster, nor will anything else, as I'm doing this 100% voluntarily in what little free time I can spare. The release date on the guide is, to borrow a line from id Software, "When it's done," and if that annoys you, {That's too bad.} I'm sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, but I would never ask anyone to prioritize any video game over their real life. All I ask is for that same courtesy.

Thanks again everyone for your patience and enthusiasm. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some typing to do.

Edited, Jun 14th 2012 12:06am by Pelamir
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#45 Jun 14 2012 at 4:27 AM Rating: Good
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nice! the guide is close!
please don't misunderstand my excitement as to rush the guide, take all the time you need, FFXI isn't going anywhere any time soon >.> .

Edited, Jun 14th 2012 6:30am by Bhujerba
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#46 Jun 19 2012 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
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I would like to ask something, which may also be nice for guide.

Frame's + WS's; different maneuvers trigger different weaponskills.

Most speak for itself (valoredge frame =dark=cannibal blade etc) though i found that some maneuvers take priority over others. For instance fire+dark=cannibal, fire+fire+dark=chimera ripper. or Light + Dark does Bonecrusher i believe. Posting quick at work so forgive spelling errors in ws names.

Use this mostly when soloing pup in Dynamis. When u have no bst, pup/thf is ok option in dynamis. Rarely competition on WS trigger mobs, and all attachments, flash/voke/dispel/ws's trigger mobs. When a proc not happening doing a different weaponskill then already tried seemed to help for me.

So idk if anyone has such a list or if it would be possible to include in guide. But this is one of the things that still as a long time pup, can get to me sometimes.... how the @#$@# do i get string shredder with fire/dark/light or any other maneuver up for that matter. wind wind + 3rd random?
#47 Jun 19 2012 at 10:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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OOOFloW wrote:
I would like to ask something, which may also be nice for guide.

Frame's + WS's; different maneuvers trigger different weaponskills.

Most speak for itself (valoredge frame =dark=cannibal blade etc) though i found that some maneuvers take priority over others. For instance fire+dark=cannibal, fire+fire+dark=chimera ripper. or Light + Dark does Bonecrusher i believe. Posting quick at work so forgive spelling errors in ws names.

Use this mostly when soloing pup in Dynamis. When u have no bst, pup/thf is ok option in dynamis. Rarely competition on WS trigger mobs, and all attachments, flash/voke/dispel/ws's trigger mobs. When a proc not happening doing a different weaponskill then already tried seemed to help for me.

So idk if anyone has such a list or if it would be possible to include in guide. But this is one of the things that still as a long time pup, can get to me sometimes.... how the @#$@# do i get string shredder with fire/dark/light or any other maneuver up for that matter. wind wind + 3rd random?


Check out the Automaton Weapon Skills page on the wiki. Each weapon skill is associated with a manuever and the higher skill weaponskills are used if there are no maneuvers up (or no maneuvers associated with any weaponskill or if there's a tie). For you to get string shreadder you need to have a thunder maneuver up to beat any fire (chimera ripper), dark (cannibal blade), light (bone crusher) maneuvers you may have active. As you have noticed with 2x fire and a dark valoredge will use the lower skill chimera ripper because fire is chimera's deciding maneuver.

Edited, Jun 20th 2012 12:31am by Zijder
#48 Jun 20 2012 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
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/bow

manuever + highest skill + tie, are what i need to keep eye on.

/facepalm so logical, and why i never bothered to look there -.-

thx
#49 Sep 18 2012 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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Did this ever go anywhere? Sorry for the necro but noticed BG wiki was out-of-date and afraid to trust much that's out there given the situation. That is, "- All magic spells are on a universal timer (I.E Enfeebling and Healing magic share the same timer), which hinders an Automaton's support ability." this is no longer correct right? I thought I saw that changed recently....
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#51 Sep 19 2012 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
Did this ever go anywhere? Sorry for the necro but noticed BG wiki was out-of-date and afraid to trust much that's out there given the situation. That is, "- All magic spells are on a universal timer (I.E Enfeebling and Healing magic share the same timer), which hinders an Automaton's support ability." this is no longer correct right? I thought I saw that changed recently....


Right now ffxiclopedia is the most up to date on automaton related pages (mostly because I'm the only one updating them). Unfortunately due to an unplanned hiatus from the game right before the big AI update, I never got around to updating all the new AI stuff on each of the head pages. Soulsoother is done and after some quick testing, recast timers have been updated on the other head pages. Also the spell list is up to date on all the pages. I'll eventually get around to updating the AI sections for the other heads but for now there's just a disclaimer that the info is old.

If ffxiclopeda is not your favourite wiki please merge its pages with BG's or GE's (make sure any unique info is not lost on the destination wiki).

Edited, Sep 22nd 2012 6:16pm by Zijder
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