What does PUP do the best at?Follow

Disappoint

Make people who don't have it unlocked want to level it!

this.

Cam, I answered this question in the LS before, you should listen more >:|

"What does PUP do best" is a flawed question that people used to insult PUP, it's not specific enough to be answered well by most jobs. "Best" meaning skill-wise? or a specific party role? or situational? These all have different answers.

The "unique hook" designed for PUP is the customizable pet, with it's own AI, so we don't have to use Blood Pacts or use a specific subjob to trigger breaths. PUP is designed to be able to fill the master's role as DD, and at the same time have a WHM pet that can pick up some healing slack, or a durable pet that can voke and take pressure off of the tank. In all fairness though, that unique hook was half-assed by SE, and doesn't work anywhere near how they planned for it to, which is why PUP has needed so many fixes from day one.

Outside of specific situations like "soloing 8-3" or "easily ditching most aggro" There isn't a quick answer to what PUPs do best, but the same can be said of most jobs. Nearly every class has competition at their job, and there a players of every job that will swear on a stack of bibles that they do it best.

Kodi I was listening when you had said that, I was just curious on everyone's idea.

Kayn I'll take it!

I don't think you can really apply "easily ditching most aggro" anymore with recent changes...



Though I jokingly replied with 'ruby lights', I have to agree that 'deal damage' is where my thoughts lie too.

Just wanted to speak on this. Just now was in Sea-the garden to be specific-was taking another PUP along with me to get that map.

Every time we were close to an elevator, i would just aggro w/e the last mob between us and the elevator was and when i had drug it far enough away from its area, Vent > Deactivate = bye-bye mob. This maybe separate from the whole hateless nukes deal(might not, who knows?) but it was definitely like i have been doing for quite a while.

So yeah, i agree with the post i quoted. In particular the bolded bit.

1. ADAPTING

Adjustable
There are very, very few situations a well-attached, well-equipped, and skill-capped puppetmaster cannot thrive in. With the advent of {Deus Ex + Sharpshot Body + Valoredge Head} there is almost no situation where a puppetmaster cannot be a major force as this has finally slayed our great dragon: AoE damage situations.


Hate management
Puppetmaster has always had, in my opinion, the best hate management in the game. With Deus Ex we have gone from powerhouse to flat overpowered. It really is what we are overpowered at. What used to be contolled with split damage (and therefore hate) generation, shadows and vent can now be controlled with split damage, shadows, vent, and Deus Ex. As in, dump the hate on the puppet and yank it back to life.


Weak party proof
If you're a DD with a lousy tank or healer, you die. If you're a tank with a lousy healer or a healer with a lousy tank, you die. If you're a pup with a lousy healer or tank, you bring out the whm puppet. And if they argue about it hurting your dps, just say "dead = zero dps".


Multiple boss fight tactics
How many jobs can physical DD up close, physical DD kite, magical DD from a stationary position with ZERO hate, magical DD hateless nuke kite (deploy, retrieve, run behind mob, deactivate, activate), and cast Cure VI infinitely with absolutely no hate? One.


2. CONCEPT

The Look, The Concept
What's scary? A ranger, a warrior, a samurai? Or, maybe, a psychotic court jester with a penchant for murder... followed my a magical, adjustable puppet with razor sharp blades, needle-pointed bolts, and evil spells... and even if you somehow manage to hit the elusive puppetmaster the puppet will just heal them and they'll never stop coming and hunting and chasing and punching and laughing always laughing....

Edited, Jun 28th 2011 3:37pm by Thydonon

High damage with low agro.

Since our damage is split between us and a pet, we are less likely to peel off a tank.

Sure a monk can churn out 5-6k VS, but we can follow our pets 3-4k ws with our own 4.5-5.5k WS and add a light/dark on for almost 3x the damage as the monk.

What he means is that we can do a 3k (pet) and a 5k(us) weapon skill and still have less hate than the mnk who just did a 6k. Therefore is lower enmity, not to mention ventriloquy. No need for an attitude.

Obvious troll is obvious... and obviouslly not a real pup.

I believe dustin is referring to the tank as any job that retains hate in majority of the fights. I don't think he's referring to nin or pld.

The part he mentioned split hate, he means it in this sense. Lets look at MNK WAR and PUP.

PUP Potential
Puppetmaster 60
Automaton 40

MNK Potential
Monk 100

WAR Potential
Warrior 100

Please don't quote percentages, this is merely for demonstration purposes. Assuming each job is performing at its optimum, equally geared, and each person's intent is to deal as much damage as they possibly can. Other than spike damage, you'll most likely lose hate along the way to the Monk or War, this usually only happens on mobs that last longer than today's EXP mobs, any longer fight. Compounded by the use of maneuvers that will slowly eat away at your full potential.

In practice if I'm playing with someone who is equally geared and a great dd, I generally won't hold hate for too long after a WS, same goes for my automaton. People are gonna come out of the woodwork claiming they're holding hate against DD's doing 6-9k Empy ws's i bet -.- . Anyway, this is a good thing, where potential DD is split into 2 units instead of having 1 unless you're regularly tanking.

CE caps quickly in abyssea and if the mob is not dead already (or close to it) then it is down to who ever hits it last. Unless you are sitting there deactivating the puppet to activate and ventriloquy then it really does not matter. That is just not efficient anyway.
Anyone know how often a PUP one of the the only people DDing on something that matters to worry about enmity or make it even worth mentioning? I say this of course because if a PUP is DDing something then generally others are probably on it (DUN F33d TP GUIZ! GET OFF IM SOLOING IT, TP MOVES ARE HARD!!11), and how long does the mob tend live then? That all hurts an argument for or against 6-9k emperian WSs so I can stay in the woodwork there :P and not everyone does something with Emperian WARs or MNK, but regardless the above is still just as valid.

I seem to sub NIN nowadays when I never did back in the day. I can just tank it since PUP can actually evade, and I rather have hate over a WAR anyway wouldn't you? At the current time in the game there is no reason to mention or care about "split" enmity when talking about PUP.

Why are you all bothering with him? He's argumentative for the sake of getting a rise. Ignore him and he may just go away and not post here again for a few months. And if he doesn't, make liberal use of the red button-i know i do every time he shows up.

for whatever my opinion on the matter is worth, Dustin knows what he's talking about. no need for that kind of attitude belenos, even tho i think i get your point, inside abyssea our "Splitted hate" advantage might not be that apparent, but it does help againts NMs where they take longer than 3-ish minutes to kill, then again, not everything is done in abyssea and most probably future end game will move away from it completely, outside that advantage pays up. if you fail to see the advantage of doing 2 "3-4k damage ws" from 2 different sources (plus one of those soruces inflicting a crippling Defence down effect) effectively splitting your hate production as puppetmaster, i think you need to re evaluate what your PUP brings to the table as a damage dealer, period.

I don't think puppetmaster was ever truly pet before master (nor any pet job in this game except for summoner really, a beastmaster -should- outdamage its pet, though nazuna did crank up pet damage). The good puppetmasters, years ago, were those who focused on both the master and the pet, and it was a bit more of an even split back then.

These days, the master outdamages the pet if played right.

However... one shouldn't really focus on just the master, or just the pet. One should focus on playing both well. I think if one is to refuse or simply not bother to focus on both, then one probably shouldn't play puppetmaster.

I disagree, split hate has always been a major (even "defining") part of our job.

You make logical disagreements, and I respect that. But look at the bigger picture, this isn't about you or me. This is about PUP.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 10:40pm by Camwin

I think Camwin is trying to insinuate that you are biased in your 'logical statements' <_<

also regardless of your stance on the whole issue of attitude. If two people were lecturing the exact same thing, but the only difference was their attitude.

One being condescending and the other being respectful and open to suggestion, naturally the person who's not spewing personal attacks and the like is going to get more respect, the conversations tend to evolve into productive conversations. When you start to grind your heel into people's faces, you're just asking to get judged :/ whether you care or not is none of anyone's business, but you're bringing judgment on yourself.

My philosophical statement was directed towards the fact that, PUPs as a whole have always banded together for the good of our job as a whole and all this back-forth of attitudes isn't helping anyone.

In short what PUP is best at is, being the job we all love and work together on for the betterment of our job as a whole.

Do you seriously have to argue, everything I say? I'm trying to be nice and communal, and all I get is denied every step of the way.

nothing wrong with disagreeing with people of course. It is really how confrontational you are at every step of the conversation among people. Like I said, if you want positive response and productive conversations, stop stepping on them :P anyway I'll stop here, have a good one.

How about I do not like the wording then? Will that work better for you?

Never said it was not rude in fact I am openly saying me being rude does not automatically make me a troll. Someone not being nice should not automatically have people sounding the troll alarm. It annoys me because it is used as a ward for anything people do not want to see, hear, read, answer questions to, and so on.

*facepalm*
-_-

Well at least you know you are rude too, right? Right..? Well that is good enough for me anyway.

Hah, you know. Try not bringing along your WHM alt (oh, I love this new trend...) and saying that please.
Yeah warriors clearly drink nitroglycerine and explode killing everyone if they are beat up. That was exactly the point I was making, and I am glad you understood that.

'Oh, it is important, you just can't see it in abyssea here try this, and...' Does just saying to try something mean anything?

My semi-wall of text you are referring to provides more support than anything you have thrown out so far Mr. Real PUP.

My mistake for using the word calculations, I apologize. I honestly just take what is said, think about it, think about my collective experiences on PUP, think about what I know about this game (and I mean know, CE capping so hate goes back and forth in abyssea (you know, most of the game atm) not some bullsh*t use of the word), run scenarios in my head, taking what I want to say and thinking of the many exceptions and situations where it does not apply, and so on. While they are not truly calculations and it is easy for myself to be incorrect. I still side with my opinion that "split" (can we just say separate, that is all it really is) hate will never make or break this job.
I can never be as good as Rog.

Being rude, offensive, or lacking tact makes you a bully now? Man this keeps getting better and better. I must be a bully because someone did not like being talked to in a certain way.

I would not "QQ" about being a troll if it was merited. If you want to actually watch me troll I can do that for you. Unfortunately since you use troll so liberally to blanket my actions you would never know the difference. I never even have to troll, people get up in arms when I am just being myself. Most of my trolling comes from stupid threads such as drama threads (STOLE MAH GLAVOID111, DONT DO STUFF WITH DAT PLAYAH, etc), and this is not one of those.

So we have incorrect usage or understanding of the word troll, a ridiculous assertion that I am sitting here trying to intimidate people, and the "take it to PM" card after providing a large post that I apparently am not supposed to respond to. Such is a really annoying and sad (yet effective) tool of making yourself look better and me worse. Unfortunately if you really cared about it you would have made a short post requesting such.

Since I am being intimated out of this thread(BELENOS U R A BULLY!!!) hopefully I can just duck out of this thread. Since saying such and such an action is not true trolling or contesting that I am a bully like Rog by someone who is no better than I is just QQing I effectively have no leg to stand on.
Nice work, and I mean that.

Like i said...

only if reason is out of the question.

Jinte, I was wondering when you were gonna pop your head in.

Then the troll signal was beckoned with the conch of trolls, and knew it was only a matter of time til you ran in here.