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What does PUP do the best at?Follow

#1 Jun 23 2011 at 7:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was asked this question the other day, and I scrambled to think of an answer. There are many thing a pup can do well even amazing. I just wanted a brainstorm session so next time, I don't give a half assed answer.
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#2 Jun 24 2011 at 8:46 AM Rating: Default
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Disappoint
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#3 Jun 24 2011 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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/Emotes
#4 Jun 24 2011 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Make people who don't have it unlocked want to level it!
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#5 Jun 24 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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Ruby lights.
#6 Jun 24 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Annalise wrote:
Ruby lights.


this.
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#7 Jun 24 2011 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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Ruby lights it is. Thanks guys! :).
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#8 Jun 24 2011 at 6:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Cam, I answered this question in the LS before, you should listen more >:|

"What does PUP do best" is a flawed question that people used to insult PUP, it's not specific enough to be answered well by most jobs. "Best" meaning skill-wise? or a specific party role? or situational? These all have different answers.

The "unique hook" designed for PUP is the customizable pet, with it's own AI, so we don't have to use Blood Pacts or use a specific subjob to trigger breaths. PUP is designed to be able to fill the master's role as DD, and at the same time have a WHM pet that can pick up some healing slack, or a durable pet that can voke and take pressure off of the tank. In all fairness though, that unique hook was half-assed by SE, and doesn't work anywhere near how they planned for it to, which is why PUP has needed so many fixes from day one.

Outside of specific situations like "soloing 8-3" or "easily ditching most aggro" There isn't a quick answer to what PUPs do best, but the same can be said of most jobs. Nearly every class has competition at their job, and there a players of every job that will swear on a stack of bibles that they do it best.
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#9 Jun 25 2011 at 7:05 AM Rating: Excellent
KodoReturns wrote:
Cam, I answered this question in the LS before, you should listen more >:|

"What does PUP do best" is a flawed question that people used to insult PUP, it's not specific enough to be answered well by most jobs. "Best" meaning skill-wise? or a specific party role? or situational? These all have different answers.

The "unique hook" designed for PUP is the customizable pet, with it's own AI, so we don't have to use Blood Pacts or use a specific subjob to trigger breaths. PUP is designed to be able to fill the master's role as DD, and at the same time have a WHM pet that can pick up some healing slack, or a durable pet that can voke and take pressure off of the tank. In all fairness though, that unique hook was half-assed by SE, and doesn't work anywhere near how they planned for it to, which is why PUP has needed so many fixes from day one.

Outside of specific situations like "soloing 8-3" or "easily ditching most aggro" There isn't a quick answer to what PUPs do best, but the same can be said of most jobs. Nearly every class has competition at their job, and there a players of every job that will swear on a stack of bibles that they do it best.


in all seriousness, i can with all confidence, answer that question. based on the state at wich the job is at right now.

Deal damage. its what we do best period.

if you are asking "compared to other jobs?" then you might need to be a tad more specific :P
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#10 Jun 25 2011 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kodi I was listening when you had said that, I was just curious on everyone's idea.

Kayn I'll take it!
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#11 Jun 25 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd have to say we surprise and wow people best. Whether it's with our hateless cures, massive nukes, awesome outfits, or ability to tank mobs that otherwise tear an alliance to shreds PUP is awesome at surprising people.
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#12 Jun 26 2011 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Outside of specific situations like "soloing 8-3" or "easily ditching most aggro" There isn't a quick answer to what PUPs do best, but the same can be said of most jobs. Nearly every class has competition at their job, and there a players of every job that will swear on a stack of bibles that they do it best.


I don't think you can really apply "easily ditching most aggro" anymore with recent changes...

Quote:
in all seriousness, i can with all confidence, answer that question. based on the state at wich the job is at right now.

Deal damage. its what we do best period.

if you are asking "compared to other jobs?" then you might need to be a tad more specific :P


Though I jokingly replied with 'ruby lights', I have to agree that 'deal damage' is where my thoughts lie too.
#13 Jun 26 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Annalise wrote:
I don't think you can really apply "easily ditching most aggro" anymore with recent changes...


Apparently you're unaware that we can still ditch aggro the same way we always could, we just can't do it with puppet abilities anymore, has to be a spell so we can use Retrieve before the spell goes off.

I escaped Iratham's clutches the other day with Deploy > Retrieve > (puppet casts Silence) > Deactivate. Still works perfectly.

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#14 Jun 26 2011 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
KodoReturns wrote:
Annalise wrote:
I don't think you can really apply "easily ditching most aggro" anymore with recent changes...


Apparently you're unaware that we can still ditch aggro the same way we always could, we just can't do it with puppet abilities anymore, has to be a spell so we can use Retrieve before the spell goes off.

I escaped Iratham's clutches the other day with Deploy > Retrieve > (puppet casts Silence) > Deactivate. Still works perfectly.



Just wanted to speak on this. Just now was in Sea-the garden to be specific-was taking another PUP along with me to get that map.

Every time we were close to an elevator, i would just aggro w/e the last mob between us and the elevator was and when i had drug it far enough away from its area, Vent > Deactivate = bye-bye mob. This maybe separate from the whole hateless nukes deal(might not, who knows?) but it was definitely like i have been doing for quite a while.

So yeah, i agree with the post i quoted. In particular the bolded bit.
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#15 Jun 28 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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KaynofTitan wrote:
in all seriousness, i can with all confidence, answer that question. based on the state at wich the job is at right now.

Deal damage. its what we do best period.

if you are asking "compared to other jobs?" then you might need to be a tad more specific :P


Kayn is absolutely correct. PUP is at its best as a DD, and it will beat most other DDs with similar quality gear/skill. People STILL can't seem to grasp that PUP's total DD contribution is the sum of the master's damage AND the puppet's damage though.

Master DD on its own is nothing to scoff at, even if it's not on par with a MNK's higher base DMG, extra DD abilities, and some extra gear:
- PUP has strong WS (Stringing Pummel makes non-Empyrean MNKs jealous)
- Fast 2-fisted attack rate means lots of crits in Abyssea
- We no longer have the Acc deficiency that plagued the job in the pre-2010 era (thanks to a mix of better gear, H2H skill increase in 2010, and Acc being less of a concern in general in 90cap era with Atma/Cruor Buffs in Abyssea, and level correction outside)
- We no longer have gear issues to the extent we used to. Empyrean set is really good stuff, we're generally on the same other gear as jobs like MNK and NIN. MNK used to have Destroyers while PUP was stuck with Wagh/Hades. Now both have the same options like Verethragna, Taipan Fangs +2, etc.

Where you end up beating other DD jobs is once you add in the big time addition of automaton DD. Our "versatility" is through the fact that we can focus on strong physical OR magical DD to supplement the master. Choose strong Tier V nukes with Spiritreaver, or beastly WS along with Barrage and some melee/ranged DoT with Sharpshot. THAT is how PUP is versatile, not in the sense that some people want to say PUP is decent at several things but not great in any one - simply wrong, we ARE great in one area. Damage through combined efforts of master+puppet.

PUP does have downsides - not a good tank, not a good puller, has to rely on Dagger for Amber light and Red procs in Abyssea, automaton is not as versatile magic-wise as a true BLM (can't Sleep and Stun, for instance) even if we do have strong magic from the damage perspective.

The upside is raw damage. Just have to remind the idiots that the puppet is there too.
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#16 Jun 28 2011 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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1. ADAPTING

Adjustable
There are very, very few situations a well-attached, well-equipped, and skill-capped puppetmaster cannot thrive in. With the advent of {Deus Ex + Sharpshot Body + Valoredge Head} there is almost no situation where a puppetmaster cannot be a major force as this has finally slayed our great dragon: AoE damage situations.


Hate management
Puppetmaster has always had, in my opinion, the best hate management in the game. With Deus Ex we have gone from powerhouse to flat overpowered. It really is what we are overpowered at. What used to be contolled with split damage (and therefore hate) generation, shadows and vent can now be controlled with split damage, shadows, vent, and Deus Ex. As in, dump the hate on the puppet and yank it back to life.


Weak party proof
If you're a DD with a lousy tank or healer, you die. If you're a tank with a lousy healer or a healer with a lousy tank, you die. If you're a pup with a lousy healer or tank, you bring out the whm puppet. And if they argue about it hurting your dps, just say "dead = zero dps".


Multiple boss fight tactics
How many jobs can physical DD up close, physical DD kite, magical DD from a stationary position with ZERO hate, magical DD hateless nuke kite (deploy, retrieve, run behind mob, deactivate, activate), and cast Cure VI infinitely with absolutely no hate? One.


2. CONCEPT

The Look, The Concept
What's scary? A ranger, a warrior, a samurai? Or, maybe, a psychotic court jester with a penchant for murder... followed my a magical, adjustable puppet with razor sharp blades, needle-pointed bolts, and evil spells... and even if you somehow manage to hit the elusive puppetmaster the puppet will just heal them and they'll never stop coming and hunting and chasing and punching and laughing always laughing....

Edited, Jun 28th 2011 3:37pm by Thydonon
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#17 Jun 29 2011 at 8:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thydonon wrote:
The Look, The Concept
What's scary? A ranger, a warrior, a samurai? Or, maybe, a psychotic court jester with a penchant for murder... followed my a magical, adjustable puppet with razor sharp blades, needle-pointed bolts, and evil spells... and even if you somehow manage to hit the elusive puppetmaster the puppet will just heal them and they'll never stop coming and hunting and chasing and punching and laughing always laughing....


Love your post, but this in particular is quote worthy Smiley: nod

I'd use it as a signature, but don't want to give PUP preference over my other jobs (well, mainly SCH).
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#18 Jun 29 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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High damage with low agro.

Since our damage is split between us and a pet, we are less likely to peel off a tank.

Sure a monk can churn out 5-6k VS, but we can follow our pets 3-4k ws with our own 4.5-5.5k WS and add a light/dark on for almost 3x the damage as the monk.
#19 Jul 12 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Default
dustinfoley wrote:
High damage with low agro.

Since our damage is split between us and a pet, we are less likely to peel off a tank.

Sure a monk can churn out 5-6k VS, but we can follow our pets 3-4k ws with our own 4.5-5.5k WS and add a light/dark on for almost 3x the damage as the monk.


What is this "tank" you speak of? I think I read a book about that once, or maybe it was just Playboy on an airplane.





I also find the word "split" to be misleading, they are two separate DDing entities with their own hate. What is this "high damage with low agro" sh*t too? What does that even mean? If we preform a 3k weapon skill we do not have any less chance of pulling hate (discounting enmity gear or merits) than someone else who does the same.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 3:30pm by BelenosSwiftWater
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#20 Jul 12 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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What he means is that we can do a 3k (pet) and a 5k(us) weapon skill and still have less hate than the mnk who just did a 6k. Therefore is lower enmity, not to mention ventriloquy. No need for an attitude.
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#21 Jul 12 2011 at 2:55 PM Rating: Default
Camwin wrote:
What he means is that we can do a 3k (pet) and a 5k(us) weapon skill and still have less hate than the mnk who just did a 6k. Therefore is lower enmity, not to mention ventriloquy. No need for an attitude.


Attitude?! :O

EDIT: There are a few things wrong with that hate idea too.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 4:57pm by BelenosSwiftWater
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#22 Jul 12 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Obvious troll is obvious... and obviouslly not a real pup.

#23 Jul 12 2011 at 2:59 PM Rating: Default
dustinfoley wrote:
Obvious troll is obvious... and obviouslly not a real pup.



Really disappointing how overused that is.

Attitude? Troll.

Disagrees? Troll.

I think people have forgotten what actual trolling is or at least how to tell the difference.
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#24 Jul 12 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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I believe dustin is referring to the tank as any job that retains hate in majority of the fights. I don't think he's referring to nin or pld.

The part he mentioned split hate, he means it in this sense. Lets look at MNK WAR and PUP.

PUP Potential
Puppetmaster 60
Automaton 40

MNK Potential
Monk 100

WAR Potential
Warrior 100

Please don't quote percentages, this is merely for demonstration purposes. Assuming each job is performing at its optimum, equally geared, and each person's intent is to deal as much damage as they possibly can. Other than spike damage, you'll most likely lose hate along the way to the Monk or War, this usually only happens on mobs that last longer than today's EXP mobs, any longer fight. Compounded by the use of maneuvers that will slowly eat away at your full potential.

In practice if I'm playing with someone who is equally geared and a great dd, I generally won't hold hate for too long after a WS, same goes for my automaton. People are gonna come out of the woodwork claiming they're holding hate against DD's doing 6-9k Empy ws's i bet -.- . Anyway, this is a good thing, where potential DD is split into 2 units instead of having 1 unless you're regularly tanking.
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#25 Jul 12 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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You can disagree without being an *** hat, but disagreeing while being an *** hat makes you a troll.

If you dont understand what spliting the damage means, you obviouslly arent a real pup. Our damage comes from our pet AND us combined, but the very act of having 2 seperate DD entities means that if my pet does a 4k ws, and i follow with a 5k ws... i have the hate from my 5k ws, not the combined 9k of damage from both ws.

Using the term split isnt missleading at all. The damage our pet does, comes from having the PUP in the party. No pup? No pet damage. Yes we are seperate entities with our own agro (which is a huge advantage), but only looking at the masters DD means you omit a good chunk of what we bring to the table.


**nicely put takawaka



Edited, Jul 12th 2011 5:08pm by dustinfoley
#26 Jul 12 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Default
takawaka wrote:
I believe dustin is referring to the tank as any job that retains hate in majority of the fights. I don't think he's referring to nin or pld.

The part he mentioned split hate, he means it in this sense. Lets look at MNK WAR and PUP.

PUP Potential
Puppetmaster 60
Automaton 40

MNK Potential
Monk 100

WAR Potential
Warrior 100

Please don't quote percentages, this is merely for demonstration purposes. Assuming each job is performing at its optimum, equally geared, and each person's intent is to deal as much damage as they possibly can. Other than spike damage, you'll most likely lose hate along the way to the Monk or War, this usually only happens on mobs that last longer than today's EXP mobs, any longer fight. Compounded by the use of maneuvers that will slowly eat away at your full potential.

In practice if I'm playing with someone who is equally geared and a great dd, I generally won't hold hate for too long after a WS, same goes for my automaton. People are gonna come out of the woodwork claiming they're holding hate against DD's doing 6-9k Empy ws's i bet -.- . Anyway, this is a good thing, where potential DD is split into 2 units instead of having 1 unless you're regularly tanking.


CE caps quickly in abyssea and if the mob is not dead already (or close to it) then it is down to who ever hits it last. Unless you are sitting there deactivating the puppet to activate and ventriloquy then it really does not matter. That is just not efficient anyway.
Anyone know how often a PUP one of the the only people DDing on something that matters to worry about enmity or make it even worth mentioning? I say this of course because if a PUP is DDing something then generally others are probably on it (DUN F33d TP GUIZ! GET OFF IM SOLOING IT, TP MOVES ARE HARD!!11), and how long does the mob tend live then? That all hurts an argument for or against 6-9k emperian WSs so I can stay in the woodwork there :P and not everyone does something with Emperian WARs or MNK, but regardless the above is still just as valid.

I seem to sub NIN nowadays when I never did back in the day. I can just tank it since PUP can actually evade, and I rather have hate over a WAR anyway wouldn't you? At the current time in the game there is no reason to mention or care about "split" enmity when talking about PUP.
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#27 Jul 12 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Default
dustinfoley wrote:
You can disagree without being an *** hat, but disagreeing while being an *** hat makes you a troll.


Brush up on what a troll actually is please.

dustinfoley wrote:
You can disagree without being an *** hat, but disagreeing while being an *** hat makes you a troll.

If you dont understand what spliting the damage means, you obviouslly arent a real pup.


^ Clearly not being worse than me or anything.

If I wanted to get into trolling I pull the why are you not using Firefox since you have trouble spelling card.

Anyway, lets move on and try to not yell "troll" as soon as I am not nice, civil, and happen to disagree.
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#28 Jul 12 2011 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
Why are you all bothering with him? He's argumentative for the sake of getting a rise. Ignore him and he may just go away and not post here again for a few months. And if he doesn't, make liberal use of the red button-i know i do every time he shows up.
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#29 Jul 12 2011 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why do my threads always become flame threads :o. So much for becoming a sage, ever.
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#30 Jul 12 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Excellent
spiritreaverdiablos the Irrelevant wrote:
Why are you all bothering with him? He's argumentative for the sake of getting a rise. Ignore him and he may just go away and not post here again for a few months. And if he doesn't, make liberal use of the red button-i know i do every time he shows up.


for whatever my opinion on the matter is worth, Dustin knows what he's talking about. no need for that kind of attitude belenos, even tho i think i get your point, inside abyssea our "Splitted hate" advantage might not be that apparent, but it does help againts NMs where they take longer than 3-ish minutes to kill, then again, not everything is done in abyssea and most probably future end game will move away from it completely, outside that advantage pays up. if you fail to see the advantage of doing 2 "3-4k damage ws" from 2 different sources (plus one of those soruces inflicting a crippling Defence down effect) effectively splitting your hate production as puppetmaster, i think you need to re evaluate what your PUP brings to the table as a damage dealer, period.
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#31 Jul 12 2011 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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I retract my previous statement, thanks guys. :)

This is what people forget, the game hasn't always been abyssea only, and won't always be it. Sooner or later we will have to revert to the ways of old. Albeit better equipped and higher levels, but our tried and true methods, will make us in the future. Whether you like it or not, our damage will always be split between automaton and master. That's what our job is here for.

Just a little fact bit, but the job used to be pet dmg before master, it seems with the changes people have reverted to thinking master is the main and pure source of dd, and anything the pet adds is secondary. We are a pet job for a reason, use it to the best of your ability. Grow and evolve, if you won't, get off the job so many of us love.
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#32 Jul 12 2011 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
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Camwin wrote:
I retract my previous statement, thanks guys. :)

This is what people forget, the game hasn't always been abyssea only, and won't always be it. Sooner or later we will have to revert to the ways of old. Albeit better equipped and higher levels, but our tried and true methods, will make us in the future. Whether you like it or not, our damage will always be split between automaton and master. That's what our job is here for.

Just a little fact bit, but the job used to be pet dmg before master, it seems with the changes people have reverted to thinking master is the main and pure source of dd, and anything the pet adds is secondary. We are a pet job for a reason, use it to the best of your ability. Grow and evolve, if you won't, get off the job so many of us love.


I don't think puppetmaster was ever truly pet before master (nor any pet job in this game except for summoner really, a beastmaster -should- outdamage its pet, though nazuna did crank up pet damage). The good puppetmasters, years ago, were those who focused on both the master and the pet, and it was a bit more of an even split back then.

These days, the master outdamages the pet if played right.

However... one shouldn't really focus on just the master, or just the pet. One should focus on playing both well. I think if one is to refuse or simply not bother to focus on both, then one probably shouldn't play puppetmaster.
#33 Jul 12 2011 at 8:31 PM Rating: Decent
spiritreaverdiablos the Irrelevant wrote:
Why are you all bothering with him? He's argumentative for the sake of getting a rise. Ignore him and he may just go away and not post here again for a few months. And if he doesn't, make liberal use of the red button-i know i do every time he shows up.


Any time I do not agree and in this case amply support my opinion I am instantly trolling, deserve to be ignored, and rated down on sight.

Oh, wait, I must be demanding a rise and arguing for the sake of it and thus everything is invalid -_-


*shakes his head*
******* ridiculous.

To everyone else:
Anyway, obviously the game has not always been abyssea, and will not always be abyssea. I never said anything pertaining to that. The "split hate" notion is a moot point and that is all I am saying. Regardless, it was never a defining feature of the job, and it does not and never will make or break anything at any point in time.
If you have a problem with my attitude then I can not really help you there either.
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I blame spicyryan
I blame his ***** of a mother who didn't abort him.
#34 Jul 12 2011 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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I disagree, split hate has always been a major (even "defining") part of our job.

You make logical disagreements, and I respect that. But look at the bigger picture, this isn't about you or me. This is about PUP.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 10:40pm by Camwin
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#35 Jul 12 2011 at 8:45 PM Rating: Default
Camwin wrote:
You make logical disagreements, and I respect that.

*GASP!* Thank you :P

Camwin wrote:
But look at the bigger picture, this isn't about you or me. This is about PUP.


The old foolosohper, egh?! You effectively said nothing right there.
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BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
I blame spicyryan
I blame his ***** of a mother who didn't abort him.
#36 Jul 12 2011 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
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I think Camwin is trying to insinuate that you are biased in your 'logical statements' <_<

also regardless of your stance on the whole issue of attitude. If two people were lecturing the exact same thing, but the only difference was their attitude.

One being condescending and the other being respectful and open to suggestion, naturally the person who's not spewing personal attacks and the like is going to get more respect, the conversations tend to evolve into productive conversations. When you start to grind your heel into people's faces, you're just asking to get judged :/ whether you care or not is none of anyone's business, but you're bringing judgment on yourself.
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#37 Jul 12 2011 at 9:15 PM Rating: Default
takawaka wrote:
I think Camwin is trying to insinuate that you are biased in your 'logical statements' <_<


Only way my logic is biased is if I am just missing something in my mental gymnastics of calculations.

takawaka wrote:
also regardless of your stance on the whole issue of attitude. If two people were lecturing the exact same thing, but the only difference was their attitude.

One being condescending and the other being respectful and open to suggestion, naturally the person who's not spewing personal attacks and the like is going to get more respect


Subjective and therefor not regardless of your stance. When it comes to this case I am also not the one calling someone a troll because I do not like them/their content and saying they are not a PUP.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 11:15pm by BelenosSwiftWater
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#38 Jul 12 2011 at 9:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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My philosophical statement was directed towards the fact that, PUPs as a whole have always banded together for the good of our job as a whole and all this back-forth of attitudes isn't helping anyone.

In short what PUP is best at is, being the job we all love and work together on for the betterment of our job as a whole.
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#39 Jul 12 2011 at 9:26 PM Rating: Default
Camwin wrote:
My philosophical statement was directed towards the fact that, PUPs as a whole have always banded together for the good of our job as a whole and all this back-forth of attitudes isn't helping anyone.


I do not think there is really anything to support that. Just because we see SMNs coming together or PUPs, or BSTs, and so on does not mean that is true. People tend to be out for themselves online in the end more often than not regardless of how bright those you are referring to shine.
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Tyrrant wrote:
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
I blame spicyryan
I blame his ***** of a mother who didn't abort him.
#40 Jul 12 2011 at 9:33 PM Rating: Good
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Do you seriously have to argue, everything I say? I'm trying to be nice and communal, and all I get is denied every step of the way.
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#41 Jul 12 2011 at 9:41 PM Rating: Default
Camwin wrote:
Do you seriously have to argue, everything I say? I'm trying to be nice and communal, and all I get is denied every step of the way.


No, I only disagree with what I do not agree with.

I don't see why it has to be a big deal anyway. You throw out some unsupported statement about everyone coming together for the good of PUP for the good of the job being a strength (huh..?) and then lash out at me for raising an eyebrow.

Picture a temple in the Taiwan. There's a congregate of monks. The head monk sits there, bows, and goes "the path to enlightenment is truly through meditation and working with your fellow brother." Then I am the monk in the back who stands up and asks "Is there anything to actually support that" and get ***** slapped.




(I just wanted to make an analogy about monks because they are seared into my brain from all the ones in full pink.)

Did someone call a mod too or do they just check in on random threads nowadays?
edit: Multiple mods? Am I that unacceptable? -_- I find such hard to believe.

Edited, Jul 12th 2011 11:46pm by BelenosSwiftWater
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Tyrrant wrote:
BelenosSwiftWater wrote:
I blame spicyryan
I blame his ***** of a mother who didn't abort him.
#42 Jul 12 2011 at 11:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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nothing wrong with disagreeing with people of course. It is really how confrontational you are at every step of the conversation among people. Like I said, if you want positive response and productive conversations, stop stepping on them :P anyway I'll stop here, have a good one.
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#43 Jul 13 2011 at 4:40 AM Rating: Good
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Let me break down what you said, how you said it and why its wrong/ trolling.

1)
Quote:
What is this "tank" you speak of? I think I read a book about that once, or maybe it was just Playboy on an airplane.


There may not be a true pld or nin tank needed now a days, but that doesn't mean the concept is gone. Your statement was a pour attempt at being funny and regards the fact that abyssea has monks and warriors as tanks thanks to their high dmg and hp. While true that currently there are no tanks in abyssea it hasn't nor will always be like that, look at voidwatch for examples.

2)
Quote:
I also find the word "split" to be misleading, they are two separate DDing entities with their own hate.

It isn't misleading in the least, in fact its how pet jobs have always worked. Any bst, smn, or pup can tell you that we count our pets damage as our own, but the hate is split. Over the course of a battle, a pup (with pet) will do the same 20k dmg as a monk, but on a parse it will show that 50-60% of that was pup and 40-50% was our pet. The last time i heard it referred to as misleading was when people on the mnk forum were asked to consider our pets DD when comparing monk to pup, and that was ages ago before we started to out DD them.


3)
Quote:
What is this "high damage with low agro" sh*t too? What does that even mean? If we preform a 3k weapon skill we do not have any less chance of pulling hate (discounting enmity gear or merits) than someone else who does the same.


I'm sorry, but if you don't see how this isn't rude/troll bate, then there's no amount of explaining or logic that can help you. You clearly are smart enough to understand that the point and choose to ignore it and make a rude comment that makes you seem right even though you clearly know you aren't.

4)
Quote:
Brush up on what a troll actually is please.

I use firefox, so that comes out as a script block, nice try though

5)
Quote:
If I wanted to get into trolling I pull the why are you not using Firefox since you have trouble spelling card.

Quote:
Anyone know how often a PUP one of the the only people DDing on something that matters to worry about enmity or make it even worth mentioning?

Quote and bold for emphasis. You use firefox and clearly it misses things as well, double 'the' and missing an 'is'. So just another example of the pot calling the kettle black.


6)
Quote:
I seem to sub NIN nowadays when I never did back in the day. I can just tank it since PUP can actually evade, and I rather have hate over a WAR anyway wouldn't you? At the current time in the game there is no reason to mention or care about "split" enmity when talking about PUP.


Actually i go /war more now and /nin and /dnc less, but i have a full time whm alt to cure myself with, and I would rather do more dmg then evade 1-2 attacks extra. As for the rest, I am not sure why you would want hate over a warrior... do warriors blow up and kill the alliance if they get hate or something? News to me. Personally I don't care who has hate, as long as its not my pet. Then top it off, there is plenty of reason why the split enmity is and always will be important, but if you are stuck in abyssea it becomes really hard to see. Try some t3 or t4 voidwatch mobs. Back in the day there were plenty of mobs where it was useful.

7)
Quote:
Any time I do not agree and in this case amply support my opinion I am instantly trolling, deserve to be ignored, and rated down on sight.

I haven't seen one example, or anything that resembles ample support. I've seen a reference to lol-abyssea and 3 minute fights.

8)
Quote:
Only way my logic is biased is if I am just missing something in my mental gymnastics of calculations

Where to start. What calculations? Lets not be all self proud and gloating, when in fact, you have provided zero forms of calculable data. However, you have supplied ample amounts of opinions based on zero data.


You come off very similar to rog. A typical internet bully who tries to be rude, then QQ about people calling you a troll even though your right and have backed it up. Thing is, rog was right some of the time. You were just rude in every post you've made. If you want to argue any more lets take it to PM because frankly you aren't adding anything to camwin's thread other then flame bating.
#44 Jul 13 2011 at 5:44 PM Rating: Default
dustinfoley wrote:
It isn't misleading in the least, in fact its how pet jobs have always worked. Any bst, smn, or pup can tell you that we count our pets damage as our own, but the hate is split.

How about I do not like the wording then? Will that work better for you?
dustinfoley wrote:
Quote:
What is this "high damage with low agro" sh*t too? What does that even mean? If we preform a 3k weapon skill we do not have any less chance of pulling hate (discounting enmity gear or merits) than someone else who does the same.

I'm sorry, but if you don't see how this isn't rude/troll bate, then there's no amount of explaining or logic that can help you. You clearly are smart enough to understand that the point and choose to ignore it and make a rude comment that makes you seem right even though you clearly know you aren't.

Never said it was not rude in fact I am openly saying me being rude does not automatically make me a troll. Someone not being nice should not automatically have people sounding the troll alarm. It annoys me because it is used as a ward for anything people do not want to see, hear, read, answer questions to, and so on.
dustinfoley wrote:
and make a rude comment that makes you seem right even though you clearly know you aren't.

*facepalm*
dustinfoley wrote:
Quote:
Brush up on what a troll actually is please.

I use firefox, so that comes out as a script block, nice try though
-_-
dustinfoley wrote:
Quote:
If I wanted to get into trolling I pull the why are you not using Firefox since you have trouble spelling card.

Quote:
Anyone know how often a PUP one of the the only people DDing on something that matters to worry about enmity or make it even worth mentioning?

Quote and bold for emphasis. You use firefox and clearly it misses things as well, double 'the' and missing an 'is'. So just another example of the pot calling the kettle black.

Well at least you know you are rude too, right? Right..? Well that is good enough for me anyway.
dustinfoley wrote:
Actually i go /war more now and /nin and /dnc less, but i have a full time whm alt to cure myself with, and I would rather do more dmg then evade 1-2 attacks extra. As for the rest, I am not sure why you would want hate over a warrior... do warriors blow up and kill the alliance if they get hate or something? News to me. Personally I don't care who has hate, as long as its not my pet. Then top it off, there is plenty of reason why the split enmity is and always will be important, but if you are stuck in abyssea it becomes really hard to see. Try some t3 or t4 voidwatch mobs. Back in the day there were plenty of mobs where it was useful.

Hah, you know. Try not bringing along your WHM alt (oh, I love this new trend...) and saying that please.
Yeah warriors clearly drink nitroglycerine and explode killing everyone if they are beat up. That was exactly the point I was making, and I am glad you understood that.

'Oh, it is important, you just can't see it in abyssea here try this, and...' Does just saying to try something mean anything?
dustinfoley wrote:
I haven't seen one example, or anything that resembles ample support. I've seen a reference to lol-abyssea and 3 minute fights.

My semi-wall of text you are referring to provides more support than anything you have thrown out so far Mr. Real PUP.
dustinfoley wrote:
Where to start. What calculations? Lets not be all self proud and gloating, when in fact, you have provided zero forms of calculable data. However, you have supplied ample amounts of opinions based on zero data.

My mistake for using the word calculations, I apologize. I honestly just take what is said, think about it, think about my collective experiences on PUP, think about what I know about this game (and I mean know, CE capping so hate goes back and forth in abyssea (you know, most of the game atm) not some ******** use of the word), run scenarios in my head, taking what I want to say and thinking of the many exceptions and situations where it does not apply, and so on. While they are not truly calculations and it is easy for myself to be incorrect. I still side with my opinion that "split" (can we just say separate, that is all it really is) hate will never make or break this job.
dustinfoley wrote:
You come off very similar to rog. A typical internet bully who tries to be rude, then QQ about people calling you a troll even though your right and have backed it up. Thing is, rog was right some of the time. You were just rude in every post you've made. If you want to argue any more lets take it to PM because frankly you aren't adding anything to camwin's thread other then flame bating.
I can never be as good as Rog.

Being rude, offensive, or lacking tact makes you a bully now? Man this keeps getting better and better. I must be a bully because someone did not like being talked to in a certain way.

I would not "QQ" about being a troll if it was merited. If you want to actually watch me troll I can do that for you. Unfortunately since you use troll so liberally to blanket my actions you would never know the difference. I never even have to troll, people get up in arms when I am just being myself. Most of my trolling comes from stupid threads such as drama threads (STOLE MAH GLAVOID111, DONT DO STUFF WITH DAT PLAYAH, etc), and this is not one of those.

So we have incorrect usage or understanding of the word troll, a ridiculous assertion that I am sitting here trying to intimidate people, and the "take it to PM" card after providing a large post that I apparently am not supposed to respond to. Such is a really annoying and sad (yet effective) tool of making yourself look better and me worse. Unfortunately if you really cared about it you would have made a short post requesting such.

Since I am being intimated out of this thread(BELENOS U R A BULLY!!!) hopefully I can just duck out of this thread. Since saying such and such an action is not true trolling or contesting that I am a bully like Rog by someone who is no better than I is just QQing I effectively have no leg to stand on.
Nice work, and I mean that.
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#45 Jul 13 2011 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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Bel we aren't kicking you out of the thread, all we are asking is that you actually contribute.
Thatisall.
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#46 Jul 13 2011 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
Like i said...
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Quite possibly the DUMBEST thing i've ever read.
#47 Jul 13 2011 at 10:39 PM Rating: Decent
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....Does Lady Jinte need to smack a *****?
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#48 Jul 13 2011 at 10:46 PM Rating: Excellent
Lady Jinte wrote:
....Does Lady Jinte need to smack a *****?


only if reason is out of the question.
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#49 Jul 13 2011 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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KaynofTitan wrote:
Lady Jinte wrote:
....Does Lady Jinte need to smack a *****?


only if reason is out of the question.
by the time I get involved, reason is long gone.

Also, Belenos ain't trollin'. If anyone here is qualified to determine what should or should not be considered "trolling", it's probably me, given that I'm kind of a big deal a total troll when not discussing maths or pup shenanigans. Smiley: laugh
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#50 Jul 14 2011 at 5:40 AM Rating: Good
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Jinte, I was wondering when you were gonna pop your head in.

Then the troll signal was beckoned with the conch of trolls, and knew it was only a matter of time til you ran in here.
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