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#1 Apr 11 2011 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Can some of you older pups share with me what the best things to merit as a pup is? I just hit 90 and am looking for where to place my merits!
Thanks in Advance,
Belaal
#2 Apr 12 2011 at 12:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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5 in automaton magic skill
5 in automaton melee skill
5 in Optimization
3 in fine-tuning
1 in role reversal
1 in ventriloquy

Those are pretty much the set in stone merits.

For others, which all depend on what your other jobs are
If none or there is open space do;
8 hand to hand merits
5 str merits
4 crit merits
Full Eva merits
4 crit defense merits
8 HP merits (unless you heavily /SCH)


Edited, Apr 12th 2011 2:23am by Camwin
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#3 Apr 12 2011 at 3:02 AM Rating: Good
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Pretty much what Camwin said really.

In case you were wondering the main reason why Optimization is 5/5 and not Fine tuning is because the latter increases the stats by a flat 5, whereas the former adds on 5% (so at least 15 each merit after 300 skill).

Role Reversal and Vent are not as useful as they once were before we got Deus Ex Automata, but they're still pretty **** useful. With their recast duration already pretty low for merit abilities, 1 is enough in each.

As for the tier 1 traits the usual layout is 5 magic 5 melee, but it's not as cut and dry as it once was. Given that we can get Blizzard V at 90, only leaving Thunder V to get in 9 more levels (unless they change something somewhere or add something else), you probably won't need any merits in magic in order to use the spells by 99, and might instead choose ranged skill depending on which you use more. Only time will tell on this one.

Edit: I'd say even with other merits you strongly consider going 8/8 on H2H due to how base damage is worked out for H2H weapons compared to any other

Edited, Apr 12th 2011 5:03am by Xakz
#4 Apr 12 2011 at 3:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Camwin's post more or less.

You can swap the 5 Auto Melee merits for Repair if you use that a lot like I do but otherwise, that merit layout is the best option for us overall.
#5dustinfoley, Posted: Apr 12 2011 at 4:58 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I dropped role reversal and ventriloquy for 2 more ranks in fine tuning and havent looked back.
#6 Apr 12 2011 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
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Thank you all so much for the help! At least now i know what to merit. now to get the merits!

Edited, Apr 12th 2011 9:41am by belaal
#7 Apr 12 2011 at 7:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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dustinfoley wrote:
Hate swapping to save our auto is pointless with DEA


These days I tend to use it in completely the opposite way to before (Hate dump on to the puppet) just because of DEA. Poor man's Super Jump on a better timer to boot.
#8 Apr 12 2011 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
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another quick question for you master Pups. What h2h weapons trial line should i do? what is best for inside aby vs outside aby? is there a difference?
Thanks again,
Belaal
#9 Apr 12 2011 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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For self DD:
Fire tiapan with str and atk
Walk of echos weapon with victory smite
Empyerian weapon with victory smite

For pet:
earth tiapan with -pdt (for VE tanking)
ice tiapan with 9int and + MAB for blm nukes



As far as best dps in/out of abyssea they will be about the same.

Fire tiapan < walk of echos < burts (lvl 89 droped) < empyrian for inside abbysea
fire < walk of echos < burts/empyrian for outside abyssea

Burts pulls ahead outside abyssea to make it even if not better then the empyrian weapon.

Edited, Apr 12th 2011 5:32pm by dustinfoley
#10 Apr 12 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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thank you so very much!
Belaal
#11 Apr 12 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
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Camwin's post is definitely the standard thinking (and is exactly the way my merits are set, including the non-PUP specific ones). You really can't go wrong with following that post.

Also, a note that even if you really like Sharpshot, automaton melee is better than automaton ranged even on SS. Why? The key for SS is generating TP to get off more weapon skills. You gain TP mainly through melee strikes, where SS can really use the boost due to its lower base melee skill.

It's arguable that depending on what skill/spells we get in the coming levels 91-99, auto magic skill will become less useful in time. I'd still be reluctant to give up the extra MAB/M.Acc from more magic skill, but if you can get all spells without merits it's not completely unreasonable to consider putting some of those merits in other stuff. We'll see what happens.

Shouta wrote:
You can swap the 5 Auto Melee merits for Repair if you use that a lot like I do but otherwise, that merit layout is the best option for us overall.


I did seriously think about dropping some auto melee merits for repair myself recently, but I didn't do it. Auto melee is just a great merit since it helps every frame.

Two reasons repair is comparatively stronger now though:
1) Get a BLM puppet to 100% HP for Deactivate/Activate. More useful now since even if your puppet dies, you can DEA > Repair and be at 100hp pretty fast.
2) Valoredge tanking (especially with Burts and Cannibal Blade spam). More frequent ability to also use repair improves the potential to tank harder stuff.

Xakz wrote:
dustinfoley wrote:
Hate swapping to save our auto is pointless with DEA


These days I tend to use it in completely the opposite way to before (Hate dump on to the puppet) just because of DEA. Poor man's Super Jump on a better timer to boot.


Exactly ^^ I also sometimes use it to establish hate on myself. Open with a big automaton nuke, vent onto myself, Stringing Pummel = that mob is stapled to me for a while.

I will say I'm still a little sad that they changed Vent in 2010 to make it no longer a viable instant claim tool as it was for a long time. Now PUP doesn't have any native instant claim abilities. You can /WAR for voke, /DNC for Animated Flourish, but when you're /NIN you don't have an instant JA (best you can do is Ni ninjutsu).

Role Reversal is still useful as an emergency self-cure, and is also nice for situations where the automaton is tanking. Dump your HP onto it, then get cured by a mage (or atma regen).

belaal wrote:
another quick question for you master Pups. What h2h weapons trial line should i do? what is best for inside aby vs outside aby? is there a difference?
Thanks again,
Belaal


Dustin's reply is completely correct, but I'd like to emphasize just how amazing Burattinaios are. Do what you can to get them, they're way easier to obtain than an Empyrian weapon and they are phenomenal.

In the meantime, yeah Fire Taipan +2 are the standard very solid choice. Ice/Earth/Wind Taipan are situational pieces, but you should certainly prioritize the Fire ones.
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#12 Apr 14 2011 at 12:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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I honestly think people should all put one merit in RR and Vent even now, just because they still have a lot of uses. For instance, if you get aggro, you COULD just have the auto cast a spell on it and deactivate. But what if you got two? With ventriloquy, you can cast a spell on the first, and use vent on the second, then deactivate, deaggroing both. If you have a job ability like strobe or flashbulb set, you can even deaggro 3 at one time by voking one, casting on a second, and venting the third!

Of course, vent can be used to temp claim a mob for a few seconds as well, great if you don't have provoke on you. And as others have mentioned, it's very VERY handy to get rid of your own hate, or to cement it by having the auto do, say, blizzard V first.

As far as role reversal goes, I find it handy for those times when repair is down, or when I'm about to die and all methods of healing are down. What next? Role reversal and steal that health back!

The two abilities may no longer have their original uses used much now, for saving and healing the puppet, but now they are often used for the reverse: saving yourself!
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#13 Apr 14 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Default
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Thats probably why I never need those merits.

I have a second account I have a WHM on so keeping myself alive with 15 mp refresh and cure v/vi is cake.

With VV and regain earring I open every fight with a VS(or SP if using burts) and am pretty locked in from there.

#14 Apr 15 2011 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Vent is also handy for situations where you're manaburning/kiting and getting **** on vent from your party/lsmates because they're doing all the kiting because your **** puppet can't pull hate. Drop a 4k nuke while they're kiting, if you don't pull hate, drop another, then vent, toss on your evasion gear, and kite for your blms while being a lot harder to kill. Seriously, our evasion is nuts. Like, Blazing eruca? couldn't hit me. In my /sch MP gear... Smiley: laugh
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#15 Apr 15 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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I'm in with Camwin on the build. Some people remove either/both role reversal or ventriloquy and put the points in fine-tuning, but I'd never part with either of them. They have just saved me too many times.

As for weapon, I did the Barracudas +2 because they were easy to solo during the random and sporadic time that I had. Give the time invested/power gained ratio, I'd aim for Burts for now.
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#16 Jun 10 2011 at 3:31 AM Rating: Good
After the nerf, are Burts still worth grabbing, or should I just focus on the fire taipans?

Just hit 80 tonight and I'm planning ahead as to what weapon I should be focusing on first.

Edited, Jun 10th 2011 6:34am by UnknownSoldier
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#17 Jun 10 2011 at 9:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't bother with Burts anymore, personally. I'm glad I never put in the time to get them, now. Things like Burts and Ducal Guard atma always get fixed, I just ignore the bandwagon, myself.
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#18 Jun 10 2011 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I would personally get burts as a place holder.

Dmg/dly is better then fire taipan, with 4 less str and 20 less atk, but its an easy weapon to get and very comparable.

Honestly if you plan on getting any magian, get the REV fists for Victory smite, and use burts as a quick and easy place holder.
#19 Jun 11 2011 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Burts is a good placeholder and on the off-chance you're doing automaton only activities, 1 TP is still not bad if you're not in the mood to do a pet attack/accu magian. You can also use it to idle in and give your pet some TP before you start fighting so you have a spare WS with Tact Switch. I wouldn't really work to get it but if you can get it, it's nice to have.
#20 Aug 20 2011 at 6:40 PM Rating: Default
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Just wondering what a good merit progression would be, atm pup is my only 90 job. So far all i have done is max out the second level merits like Camwin suggested, but i am wondering which merits to start working on next. My skills are pretty far under cap, 280 ranged, 240 melee 250 magic, and my H2H is also around 280 with evasion around 240. Do the h2h, evasion, puppet skills just add more for me to skill up, or does it give any boost if under the cap?

Should i start capping str or crit first? Something else? Still new to merits and wanting to try and maximize my ability to solo cap all of my skills. Oh and just playing around in z mines hunting for a miracle attachment/capping skills i was having alot of fun with role reversal/vent, vent is really useful if you are trying to cap evasion/auto ranged at the same time because the pet always steals hate, but you can just vent it back onto yourself.

One last question, if i am skilling up in Zeruhn mines how high can my skills go just by fighting the bats/worms?

Thanks, Fantus
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#21 Aug 20 2011 at 10:28 PM Rating: Decent
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All right let's do this. /cracks knuckles.

First off when you get skill lvl merits, aka h2h and automaton skills it adds the skill levels to both sides. Aka if you were 280/348 and added a merit to them it'd be 282/350.
Also work on crit first if you primarily play in abyssea as that will help your dmg output the most.

By the way I decided to go against the grain and dropped all STR merits and beefed up my DEX even more. I wouldn't suggest it unless you completely know what you are doing.

And here in a few skill levels ditch the mines and just go aby skill, with Atma all skills are easier obtained. I believe mines won't cap you anyways. (might with the new mobs).
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#22 Aug 22 2011 at 8:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Fantus wrote:
Just wondering what a good merit progression would be, atm pup is my only 90 job. So far all i have done is max out the second level merits like Camwin suggested, but i am wondering which merits to start working on next. My skills are pretty far under cap, 280 ranged, 240 melee 250 magic, and my H2H is also around 280 with evasion around 240. Do the h2h, evasion, puppet skills just add more for me to skill up, or does it give any boost if under the cap?

Should i start capping str or crit first? Something else? Still new to merits and wanting to try and maximize my ability to solo cap all of my skills. Oh and just playing around in z mines hunting for a miracle attachment/capping skills i was having alot of fun with role reversal/vent, vent is really useful if you are trying to cap evasion/auto ranged at the same time because the pet always steals hate, but you can just vent it back onto yourself.

One last question, if i am skilling up in Zeruhn mines how high can my skills go just by fighting the bats/worms?

Thanks, Fantus

If you're looking for merits that help you cap skills quickly, get and max out (in no particular order): h2h, dagger, club, evasion, guard, Fine-Tuning, some combination of puppet skills (sounds like you need melee most atm, but switch them as necessary), DEX, probably stuff like hp, crit+, enemy crit-.

Once your skills are capped, start switching them to those agreed upon in the thread. (Fine Tuning-->Optimization, DEX-->STR, etc)
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#23 Aug 24 2011 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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@camwin hows dex treatin ya? (Curious)
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#24 Aug 24 2011 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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takawaka wrote:
@camwin hows dex treatin ya? (Curious)


Honestly, I haven't looked back. STR is good and all but for myself I enjoy a smudge higher hitrate, a smidge higher crit rate, and just being a very dexy (bad joke) puppetmaster. It's part of my grand scheme to say ***** the STR and VIT modifiers and just stack the crit.

Inb4 someone says in abyssea hit rate and crit rate are easily capped.

On that note I am currently pursuing tp bonus cudas, just for fun. Well actually strictly for testing purposes. See how they compare to fire taipans.

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#25 Aug 24 2011 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
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cool cool :D, I remember when I went dex heavy back in the day to try it. Was it 4-5 dex is around 1% crit rate or something like that? I remember reading about it when I used to play nin before the uncap of lvls xD I have no idea how it works anymore xD
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#26 Aug 25 2011 at 12:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Puppetmaster Merit Progression:

Vent/RR #1/2
Crit Hit (quick and easy, and solid boost) 1->5
Automaton Magic Skill (#1 priority if you use mage puppets, dropped back a bit if you don't)
H2H merits (really solid increase to your damage)
Automaton Melee Skill (quick and easy, and helps skilling up)
Fine-tuning (if you're still skilling up)
Optimization (if you're skills are capped, this comes before auto-melee, because it's a HUGE boost to puppet damage)
HP/MP (if you /sch a lot, or you're like me (a galka that also plays pld. lolgalkapldmp), go mp, otherwise HP)
other sh*t
more sh*t
other sh*t
more sh*t
Str/Dex/whatever merits.

stats come last because they require the most work for the least gain. Regardless of what anyone says, you're never going to notice 5 (or whatever the new cap is) Str outside of small % gains on a parse.



edit: as to the discussion about alternative stat merits; I'm probably going to do VIT. 3 reasons. 1: Galka Mnk. I want big chakra numbers, dps be damned. 2: all of my jobs rely on vit for WS (war, mnk, pup) or JA (mnk, pld) mods. 3: Trolololing min/maxers.



Edited, Aug 25th 2011 1:40am by Jinte
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#27 Aug 25 2011 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
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=D Thanks jinte
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#28 Aug 30 2011 at 3:02 AM Rating: Decent
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takawaka wrote:
=D Thanks jinte


someone thanked me?

Screenshot
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#29 Sep 02 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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Just my order on merits:

1: 1/5 Role Reversal
2: 1/5 Ventriloquy
3: 5/5 Automaton Magic Skill
4: 8/8 Hand-to-hand
5: 5/5 Increased Crit Rate
6: 5/5 Automaton Melee Skill
7: 4/4 Evasion
8: 5/5 Optimization
9: 3/5 Fine-tuning
10: 5/5 Reducted Crit Rate
11: Literally anything else, like other jobs you don't even use anymore.
12: 8/8 HP
13: STR, DEX, INT, whatever. Most use STR for pup, but meh. I'm at the point where I might just put them into int for my blm, that might actually matter since I'm hume.

You could move optimization and fine-tuning above evasion if you wanted. I'm a big evasion fan here, so I put it up my way. Also, capping evasion merits is quick and easy. Might as well get it out of the way.



It's a well know irony that the hypercustomizable PUP has only one top-end merit setup:
5/5 Automaton Magic Skill
5/5 Automaton Melee Skill
1/5 Role Reversal
1/5 Ventriloquy
3/5 Fine-tuning
5/5 Optimization

There are a few holdouts for other setups, but most PUPs go with this.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 11:03am by Thydonon
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#30 Sep 02 2011 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah i personally dont use role reversal or ventriloquy at all any more and dont miss them.

I just found that over the course of a week I needed them maybe 1 time in 20+ hours. Where as the 2 more ranks of fine tuning affect every second my pet is deployed.

Just my personal 2 cents. If at 99 we dont gain any new spells in blm, I might just remove those merits and give them to the ranger for some acc.
#31 Sep 04 2011 at 2:06 AM Rating: Good
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Now that I look back at my merits, I think I can do without vent and RR, I've been using them because I have it but every time I go over the scenarios, Deus Ex Automata keeps coming up as an answer lol. Them 5's to everything sounds good right about now.
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#32 Sep 04 2011 at 2:51 AM Rating: Good
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Play around with it, it's not like merits are hard to get.
Everyone plays PUP their own way. PUP doesn't have cookie cutter situations like a lot of other jobs. Do PUP, as you PUP yourself.

Me personally rely on vent and RR every day so I will never drop, they are way to important and amazingly useful to me.
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#33 Sep 04 2011 at 3:35 AM Rating: Decent
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whether or not you do 5/5 opt/FT, or you keep the vent/RR merits, is basically entirely up to preference/play style. Personally, I don't use them religiously when I play pup, but I use them often enough to warrant having them, and in the situations I do use them, I'm really glad I have them Smiley: laugh

That, and at 90, you're not gonna need/notice the extra 10 acc/r.acc/eva 90% of the time, and the extra 10 MDB, while nice when put into play, isn't enough for to warrant the lack of extra utility having vent/RR provide for the same cost. For me, anyway.
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Reiterpallasch wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Am I the only one who clicked on this thread expecting actual baby photos [of Jinte]? o.O

Except if it were baby photos, it would be like looking at before and afters of Michael Jackson. Only instead of turning into a white guy, he changes into a chick!
#34 Sep 04 2011 at 4:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I was kinda expecting them to reevaluate those merits when they go to add t3 merits.

Similar to attachments, +10 at 75 meant a lot more then +10 at 99.
#35 Sep 04 2011 at 6:45 AM Rating: Good
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@ dfoley
yeah i wish the attachments were percentile or at the very least caught up with the times.

@camwin
i demeritted the two and doing my usual to see if i have any 'itches' without them. i'm already feeling the itch though lmao.

@jinte
the utility is hard to pass up for sure. i use both of them here and there. you're right about the miniscule 10 stats with abby buffs around. outside besides voidwatch. its hard to justify almost.

so far im feeling empty without them ._. hahaha


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