Convince me: PUP in dynamis?Follow

Greetings. This is my first real venture into the PUP forums, and I checked a few pages back, so forgive me if this is something that has been covered recently and I missed it. I'll get right to the point: I am the leader of a large, successful dynamis shell on Unicorn. We have several members who are increasingly passionate about PUP and want to use it in dynamis. I do occasionally allow that, but I don't know enough about the job (I'm pretty clueless about it, actually) to really understand the best way to use a PUP, and I am hesitant to have autos running around the zones on a regular basis. I don't doubt that a PUP can be useful, but I have to question if it is optimal. Obviously it's good to allow people to play a variety of jobs to keep dynamis at least somewhat interesting, but I always have to consider the success of the run as a whole as well.

So I have come here, hoping that you guys can present some well-reasoned arguments one way or the other. I'm also hoping you can educate me about the best way to use a PUP in the various zones, what sort of things a PUP should have to be successful in dynamis, and what things I should be looking for to see if a given PUP is doing his/her job correctly.

For the sake of discussion, you can assume that all of our PUPs have other jobs that they can come and be useful on, and that we are always able to provide adequate mage support for our tanks and DDs. Also, I know that the style of dynamis varies significantly, so I'll mention that we currently fight multiple mobs simultaneously, generally with two or three self sufficient "kill" parties (tank, healers, DDs), one or two additional freelance DD parties, some BLMs, and a pull/TH party.

Thanks to all who respond.

If your members have a respectable TP/WS build, and their auto is geared well, then they can not only keep up with DDs, but at times beat them. The only time PUP doesn't win is when brds would perform a SV rotation for the mega bosses in CoP areas to zerg things down.

I was a PUP-only character for quite a while. My experience in dynamis on PUP isn't very much, but it is enough to get an idea on how the job works. Pre-75, I used melee automaton because I didn't have vent/role reversal. After those 2 merits, PUP should be using BLM automaton. SJ of preference varies, I personally went /sch and stayed in the BLM parties to help keep them alive. My nukes oftentimes did more than the other BLMs, even without many merits into PUP. Once my PUP got all 54 attachments and fully merited, no BLM in my dyna shell was able to keep up with my damage. I did have a very dedicated PUP/SCH build, focusing around INT/MND for maneuvers, and Pet:MAB/MACC where applicable for nukes.

I'm a firm believer in the damage capabilities a puppetmaster has; however, I'm very hesitant to invite PUPs because a vast majority of them don't know how to play the job. Now, I'm not saying all PUPs should be playing one way or another, I'm just saying that there are a large number of PUP who really don't understand what maneuvers do, what attachments to attach, and how to gear even at 75/80...


TL;DR: PUP's great if the person knows how to play it; potentially better than a BLM.

Oh god, not this again. The old versatile routine, egh!?

This thread should tell you and the OP all you need to know about that word.

I recall all of Natey's rants on versitility and such. Pretty much all of his points were valid. One thing at the end of the day though - in dynamis you can quite readily switch between melee damage and magic damage, and still do a fairly good job at both. Of course taking that route is hardly optimal, coming prepared for one particular role will always prevail over considering the "what if X/Y/Z happens?" scenarios (There are scenarios where being able to switch between roles would be handy though. E.G. it you was using a melee bot and somehow your ally wipes, you could change to SR and help nuke down enemies with the BLMs while an ally recovers).

As far as PUP usefulness goes in dynamis (Bearing in mind I haven't played in many a moon.), I would say in terms of damage, PUP will hold its own and possibly even surpass BLM and SCH. A PUP can floor statues pretty well and does stupid levels of damage in the town dynamis zones. I'd probably still consider BLM and SCH though for its other uses (SLeepga/stun amoung other things.)

PUP can melee respectably in dynamis too, but I can't comment too much on that as I mainly used SR in dynamis and a LOT has changed DD wise since I've played.

What Psion said. Also to add: My old dyna leader was also reluctant to let me come as PUP to dynamis, but after I came to a run as PUP, I never went as any other job unless it was for DL, when I came as MNK (PUP zerg as it currently stands is not great).

Side note: my dyna LS had the same leader as my regular LS who did lots of scheduled events, most of which I ended up going as PUP to after my dynamis shenanegans XD

You know, you probably got kicked from the shell because of the way you did things. I asked the leader if I could try pup out and see how effective it was. I did not outright refuse to come blu, but instead made a request to experiment, which gets a lot better reactions then being a sulky child and refusing to cooperate. >_>;

I am confused how nuking a statue before the blms reach it is asinine, especially since you just saved them a bunch of mp they could use for other things, such as sleepgas or nuking monsters instead, like plds, mnks, and thfs, any mob that needs blm assistance killing.

Also, generally 3-4 blms means you're a bit short on blm power, as you have to take into account weakened blms, as well as 5-6 thundaga's needed to safely kill some time extensions + mobs. generally you want at least 5 blms for dynamis for a safe run. >.>

The only time I go rdm to namis anymore is if we need chainstun (CoP or DL runs, sucks being the rdm everyone relies upon) Other then that, its all about pup in namis.

Usually I check the ls to see where we are on blm, if we are low on blm's i'll pull out spiritreaver and help the blms out. Its very useful, since keeping your blm's alive is usually key. Also if there is a PD i'll just blow up the mob while all the melee is missing. And the pretty much unlimited MP, allows you to continue nuking, while the BLMs are resting MP/

Pulling out Vale frame, is one of those frames that you can pull out to help with the random shield bash or if you need a temp tank until the real pld's can get control, is always good.

Sharpshot frame puts out really good damage and from a distance, unlimited arrows and it really helps with damage. And who doesnt love Armor Piercer?? I'll sure this if we need more DD, cause we are a lil low/

Soulsoother is good for helping with heals, sometimes you need that extra healing power.

All in all, like previously stated, you need your pups to be versitile based upon what is needed for the best of the shell, but you are gaining more by allowing pups in namis then what you are losing.

you guys aren't paying attention to the subject... this guy is trying to learn about what a pup does in and how well a pup does in dynamis, not how to play it. I have 80 cor, so you can imagine everyone wanting me to always be it, and it took a long time to show them how good my pup is b/c none of them really know what it's doing. But now i'm always welcome to bring it because i've proven it works well most of the time.

a pup is either good or half-assed. Get every attachment, or g t f o. ask a pup if he has every attachment. If he says no, make him come on another job. Ask him if he has capped skill on all or most of the frames. The difference between a good pup and a L O L PUP is attachments and skill, gear on the master does affect the job and make it better but not as much. If a pup has full attachments, full merits, FULL SKILL on each frame, and good gear, then and only then will he or she be able to out nuke black mages or out damage melee or out cure whms.

Now, when i say "out do", it is very situational. PUP can out do jobs in certain ways, but in many ways it has LIMITATIONS.

Cureing:
a pup/sch, pup/whm, or pup/rdm can be a main healer in dynamis, but make sure there is some sort of backup. Pup gets cure V, but only while engaged with a mob. If someone has low hp after a fight, the master will have to use cure 3s. If you are fighting mobs with little to no aoe status effect moves, the pup can spam cure V unlimited and shine. However, if you are fighting something like urganites, the AI will not work right because of the constant debuffs, and you can't cure V. A good setup is to maybe have a rdm or blu in the same party as the pup. That way the pup can cure V while the rdm can focus on haste and refreshing etc, but if something goes down, the red or blue or white mage can fill in the cure gap and cover for the pup. This is also heavily dependant on how good the master is at controlling the cures. If the pup doesn't practice it much, then chances are he wont be able to main heal. An mp set for the master is also mandatory, because pup gets 0 base mp on the master itself. This is important for when the pet can't cure V for any reason, and for backup na spells, or hasteing.

Nuking:
Last night actually i can confirm doing a higher dmg stone V than the blms, and they were mad. I was 78 pup, and i almost doubled dmg on stone V of a blm 80. (full power 1831 stone V from my auto on the last ninja boss of dynamis beucidine). I have full attach, capped merit and some pet mab and macc gear. A pup is great for these SINGLE target nukes. PUP gets no aoe nukes, thats how its limited. The master must be careful to time his nukes precisely when the time nuking starts, and it should cast about the same speed as ancient magic 2, depending on what attachments. Even with max casting time for full power, it should be fine. For sleep time nukes, make sure your pup knows how to make it "NUKE ONLY" using ice and water manuvers; a bad pup will mess up and can bio or dia the mob. For sleep timed nukes using sc and MB, the pup wont be able to control what specific nuke spell is cast(like you would want thunder for a light sc, but the auto might cast stone, it's AI), but it will still do normal dmg. As for being pup w/ nuking in dynamis in general, it works, but watch to see if the master gets his pet killed, the blm frame is fragile. If he does, its useless. He must be CAREFUL.

Melee:
The pup can choose from 2 frames for melee, a fragile ranger, or a sturdy warrior. If a pup is pup/war for example and is using the melee frame, he is pretty much like any other melee DD. He just has to be careful to not get his pet killed. The ranger frame is fragile, but hits really hard if capped on certain mobs. The warrior frame can off tank sometimes if needed, however unlikely, but is usually just equipped to damage deal and run in after the mob swinging. A pup must be a true master to know how to and be able to tank with his warrior pet. This is rare. Most just use it for consistent and sturdy melee. It does less damage, (unless the pup went the melee skill route in his merits) but is less likely to die from really nasty aoe. The ranger has a ranged attack, but it has to get in pretty close to use it, aoe will still hit it, so the master must be aware and not let it die. Even the fragile frames can survive aoe now with the new stout servant trait and good magic defense and melee defense attachments, but some aoe spam is brutal. A good pup will know when to deactivate during these times in case he dies if his timer has lots of time left before he can summon another pet. A pup that says, i didnt know! srry it died, 17 mins left! is lol. Be aware though that if the pup hasnt had to change frames from healer, to melee, to nuker etc and has had time to charge up another pet, when the pet dies, he can pop another instantly.

self healer/ moderate nuker:
rarely you might see a pup using a frame that looks like a rdm. It's more of a sch actually that can debuff. This frame can cure, but only the master. It can nuke, but caps at thunder3, and it can enfeeble. A decent choice, but its probably more useful usually to get the pup to use his blm or whm frame.

Harlaquin frame:
lol. IF you see a pup using a frame in dynamis that looks like a little artard in a purple jacket and a fishbowl helmet, kick him from your LS as soon as possible.

Applications in Dynamis:
I feel the most useful in dynamis when im filling in a gap somewhere thats needed. People can leave early, or not show up. This is where pup is useful. A pup can switch around the parties if needed, and change frames to suit that party. A good pup will notice when his party's hp is consistently yellow and more healing is needed during farming or something, and will switch to his healer. Later, when the hp of the party is pretty much always nominal because less healing is needed, he might switch to blm, or melee. Timed nuke situations and killing statues is great for pup, and they can melee on the other mobs like the everyone else and/or nuke them too if there are too many blms. Now if you have a switch happy pup however, it can get annoying for the other members, b/c they dont know what role he is fulfilling. He has to say what he's doing. Also a switching pup must keep his frame alive because the timer gets reset, if it dies, he is screwed, and so is his party. A pup usually knows how to keep it alive by lvl 75, but many barely use it outside of soloing or xp parties and are not used to it dealing with harder mobs.

also, if something goes wrong, pup is the easiest job to blame. You can keep one around just for that reason. If there's a mijin gakure and everyone dies, just blame the pup, he's used to it.

Differences between puppetmasters:
the pet is heavily dependent on which of the traits and skills the person chose to merited on his or her pup. Depending on merits, one frame can be boosted far beyond its normal caps, or a pup might choose to balance the merits between all the frames. The other frames will still be good, but if taken far, a merited frame will outshine the others.

Mage:
Before the level 80 cap, a pup had to merit magic skill 5/5 to get blizzard 4. Tempted by this spell, many pups chose to merit their blm pet and capped their magic attack bonus group 2 trait(optimization) to 5/5.. Now with the update containing stone V and thunder IV, these pups are loving every minute of their choices. This is the route I took myself. Even though all pups get stone V now at 80 with merits or not, the merits make it nuke much harder and more accurately. The whm pet shares the same "automation magic skill" as the blm, so it cures for more hp the higher the skill gets.

Ranger:
The new 80 cap gave pups one new ability: tactical switch. This swaps tp of pet and master. For a merited ranger frame with 5/5 skill, and 5/5 or so fine-tuning group 2(ranged accuracy), these pups absolutely love being able to swap the tp from the master to the pet after it has used its heavy hitting weapon skill (armor piercer) for second bonus armor peircer. These pups can deal nasty damage, and they are around, but you don't run into a pure sharpshot puppetmaster as often as a merited nuker.


Warrior:
Many pups merit 5/5 melee skill regardless of their favorite frame, because all the frames can use melee skill. 5/5 melee can really shine on the warrior pet. Basically you send it in, and it hits and hits, accurately, consistently and hard. This adds up fast. Its also easy to use. Using the tactical switch, this pet stays alive the best as well, as you use back to back drain weapon skills to keep it alive (and possibly tank. Optimization helps melee as well as magic attack, so many pups choose to go 5/5 melee, and 5/5 magic, and capping the group 2 optimization for both so that their melee and magic frame are both good. Not a bad choice at all.

Myself, I chose 5/5 magic skill merits, and splayed the others. 2 into activate to shave off time when it does die (which can happen, dont always blame the pup.. it just matters how often and easily it dies, and how much time is left on the timer), 2 into melee, and 1 into ranged. I like to switch around, so it works. On the group two merits, 5/5 optimization, 1 ventriloquy (hate swap), 1 role reversal (hp swap), and three fine-tuning. I like it.

conclusion:
long story short, capped pups that love the job enough to know its details should be welcome... watch them kick some butt. Anything short of a nearly capped pup is like a sam not wearing pants or earrings or rings and then wondering why his ws dmg is terrible.




Edited, Jul 7th 2010 3:07pm by highlander414

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 3:19pm by highlander414

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 3:20pm by highlander414

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 3:28pm by highlander414

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 3:35pm by highlander414

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 4:35pm by highlander414

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 4:38pm by highlander414

Wut? So if you have gilz you can buy all the attachments and be considered as a zomg PUP. While being frugal with your attachments and having good master/maton skills be a I'm a moron.

To the OP, the difficulty in PUP is that there are so many variations of their role. You're never going to figure out what that random PUP will bring to the table. I'll try to break it down in my perspective.

There are 3 types of PUPs: Full DD, Half DD/Support, Full Support.

Full DD: Pretty self explainitory. Both the master and the maton are dealing damage. The maton can deal magical/melee/ranged damage. The master is also a very respectable DD in their own right once the cap was raised to a B+ rating. To maximize a maton magic frame, they must be on the ball with spell timers and DAD timers to maximize casting. With the ranger frame, the master must be aware of any aoe moves and be ready to vent or RR to avoid going poof.

Half DD/Support: This can be a combination of master being the DD and maton being WHM healing or the maton DDing and master /SCH, /WHM. You cannot expect for the maton to main heal because of timer issues. Think of them as the helping hand when things go haywire the maton can toss a Cure 5 at the lowest health of a party member or alliance. If there are many people with status cures you can cause the maton to -na. But the problem is that if you need to heal, the -na will go first. The maneuver to control that lasts for 1:00. During that time if people have status stuff on and people need critical healing, you'll be in trouble.

Full Support: Both the maton and master are in the backlines. The master can spot heal and spot -na while you deploy the maton for people who needs C5 or major healing. One advantage is that matons have unlimited MP as long as they dont get hit. Even if they do, the master can RR and use DAD.

In short, PUP can do a lot of things. They can even change up on the fly depending on the situation. You need to ask the PUP if they can help with nuking or healing or DD. If they can't, well I'd suggest you go find a different player.

pup parsing #1? i believe it. Pups believe it. no one else does... until they see it. Then they say something like: i bet SE scales it down, pup shouldnt steal the limelight from the blms (or any other job). what

__|__ 0.0 __|__

I wouldn't say EVERY attachment is needed, as there's 5 of them that cost over 500k each, 4 of which are over 1 mil each. However, if they are nuking, make sure they got tranquilizer and condenser. for melee, turbo charger is nice but it won't totally kill a pups damage if they don't have it, just lessen it somewhat. Some attachments like drum magazine are worthless for almost everything, but only cost 10k, and economizer is wonderful, but costs 1.4M on my server plus you can do without it just fine. (it's more of a solo attachment than anything)

Generally, for dynamis, your pup will usually either be /sch or another mage sub if they don't have it yet, and use drain for nuking along with support when needed while the blm bot nukes. If they do DD on the other hand (for xarca especially, since ahrimans and demons resist nuke damage), they will tend to be /war or /drg (with haste build), and use sharpshot to dish out the damage. If they need to main heal a party, which they can do so provided it's not a tank party or full of DD's that pull hate non stop, they will usually be /sch or /whm, stay out of the frontlines, and use whm bot to heal. The priority for the auto with an optic fiber, damage gauge, and one light maneuver up is, from highest to lowest priority :

cure master/itself of status effect if it can with a -na spell (no erase)
> cure master/itself if either are below 80% hp
> regen person in party with most hate if 95%-80%ish hp and monster is High decent challange level or higher
> cure person in party who is tanking if below 80%
> cure anyone in party who is below 80% hp, starting with the lowest hp person
> enfeeble monster

If you happen to have a water maneuver up, then it will also toss in status cures in there somewhere, but it will still prioritize healing over -na unless the master or itself is enfeebled. The main thing to watch out for with pup healing is making sure the master and auto stay enfeeble free, at least of -na type enfeebles like poison, and remain above 80% hp at all times. with /sch and repair this isn't too hard, fortunately, provided you stay out of the frontline and watch out for dynamis mobs huge range enfeeblegas. Mainly the slimes in jeuno are the worst, as paralyga really... really sucks. For that however, a simple paralyna master > deactivate > activate fixes it, but getting paralyna off can take a few tries sometimes.

If you're arguing about an attachment's worth, it helps your case to spell it correctly, firstly.

Also, this is pretty terrible logic, as if your pet gets hit, you got several ways to deal with this. Repair is on a 3 minute timer, and this will work. Role reversal is a 4 minute timer, and also works. Mana converter is nearly the same thing as economizer, other than the fact that it takes half your autos hp and turns it into mp. Mana tanks also restore a lot more mp these days, and any of these options will allow your auto to get to full hp and deactivate to restore, either by directly healing it, or giving it the mp it needs to full heal itself.

Economizer only really helps two automatons: stormwaker and soulsoother. Spiritreaver's AI is going to get @#%^ed up if it gets damaged too much, and because aspir is triggered at 75% auto mp or less, economizer isn't going to do much for it. It also cant heal itself other than drain, which practically never restores it's hp by more than 30, because for some reason it's drain fails. For the last two automatons, you will either be using them for solo, or main healing a party. for the first, yes, economizer is a godsend, but you can still make do without it by deactivating, keeping auto out of AoEs, role reversal, etc. If you can't do this you're fighting the wrong mob or being an idiot in your tactics.

If it's a party setting, it's a great attachment as well, but considering you will often wind up deactivating and activating for emergency back to back cure V's once in a while anyways, it's usefulness goes down a bit. There's also the fact that you won't be in AoE range for almost any event, and if you get hit by one, you got several other options to restore your automaton's HP.

Also, people don't invite pups because most of them are idiots and go to party as /dnc with full evasion gear and use sharpshot at a distance, while using almost no attachments. You can do PERFECTLY GOOD DAMAGE without the big 5 of attachments. You won't be winning the parse probably, but you can come close, just like any melee with a good gear setup, but nothing HQ/extremely costly. Will the big 5 enhance your performance? Absolutely, by a good amount, and they let you change your tactics. Are they necessary to be a good pup? Not unless your nuking with spiritreaver on endgame mobs, in which case condenser and tranquilizer are a must. And you have plenty of time leveling from 1-75 to save up for those two at least.

And seriously, save your goddamned peacock charm for yourself, you'd get more performance from having that than an economizer in party play. Although if you mainly solo, then economizer is a worthwhile investment.

I don't feel the effort is worth it to argue with you, not because I can't think of 100 different ways to crush your puny logic into stygian ash, but because I don't enjoy squished troll underfoot.

All I'm going to say is halfassing and going for cost-effectiveness are two entirely different things. One is bad, the other is good. Economizer is a luxury part. It's the last attachment you should buy, even over drum magazine, because at least drum magazine is 5k.

If you got 1.5M for economizer, please make sure you check your gear and other attachments FIRST and make sure you can't buy something else that would benefit you more than it. If all you do is solo, then economizer will probably win out as it really helps with solo play. If you do any partying or endgame at all though, chances are you will find a new piece of equipment, such as hermes's sandals, a peacock charm, or a brutal earring far more worth it to you in performance.

^^ This.

I don't think people say this often enough, but just because you're PUP80 doesn't necessarily mean you're a good PUP80.

Yet last night when I tried to give a PUP a break and actually invite one to replace me (something I never do) they came PUP/DNC to abyssea. I did not stay to check their gear, that was enough for me to just walk out with my head down.

Bet they used Soul Soother too...

Make sure the player is solid. Much like SCH or /SCH, PUP requires a player to not be an idiot. This is asking a bit much of some people. An idiot will gladly contribute to PUP's rep (this is how it came to be). A pro will do things right and you won't even know the difference, which is unfortunately not nearly as noteworthy as a I'm a moron (lol-PUP autofix ftw).

Edited, Jul 25th 2010 2:47pm by tertoonetwothreefour

Would make more sense to have a DNC for the haste samba as well as steps.

Did you tell him that he should be geared as a DD with a DD sub? Most people that don't know any better fall under two categories:

1) Those that do not know how to play PUP because they've never learned how to do so.
2) Those being stupid on purpose.

If it was category 1, then rather than being silent, you should've told him what you're expecting of him. If he refuses to learn or accept his mistakes, lump him into category 2 and never invite him again. Hate the player, don't hate the job.

A good PUP is a capable PUP.


Edited, Jul 27th 2010 8:47pm by Kametame

Silrye

Not to nitpick or anything because that post had some good advice in there, but in what situations have you included schurzen in your auto build.

How do you manage to keep the Earth Maneuvers up at the expense of other Manuevers? I love this attachment, but since I hit 75 I never bothered to use this one because of the other parts that I felt provided more utility overall.