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Desultor Tassets AugmentsFollow

#1 May 06 2010 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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So, I'm not quite 75 PUP yet, but here is the link to the gear I will be wearing for an average merit party (most likely birds) @ 75. http://www.ffxiah.com/item_sets.php?id=130161

Now, according to FFXI calc. that current gear set puts me at 89.3% accuracy (with sushi). I definitely want to keep the Dessultor Tassets as Haste +3 and something, and I know there are other posts about this, and I've read them. My question is: if i get the Dbl Atk +2 augment on the pants, I will most likely spend time camping the Lava's and Kusha's rings which will put me at 93.4% which in all honesty is close enough for 95% for me. (I can hit 95% if I get a swift belt too). If I do the acc+7 augment on the pants, I will most likely keep sniper's + Rajas to TP in. I know what a lot of the responses will be: acc +7 AND ring set to cap acc, and get a **** swift belt, right? haha but I just want to know people's opinion and to see both sides of things if there's anything I'm missing. Also, I plan to use the pants on COR & THF 75 too, just to take that into consideration. Thanks!

Edited, May 6th 2010 10:28pm by Yopopoe
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#2 May 06 2010 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
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I personally didnt gear my tassets to meriting because PUP is rarely invited as it is. I geared mine towards solo/events. I went the Movement Speed +8%/Pet:MACC+7 route so I can keep on pantin babouches while playing with BLM head and still maintain some movement speed.

Now, looking at that set, I think Haste+3/ACC+7 would benefit more with Rajas/Sniper.


And on a side note: Lava/Kusha are inferior to Rajas/ACC+5 rings, no matter the job.
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#3 May 06 2010 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmm, are they? in all situations? I supposed the higher STR and Store TP would make them as good if not better, however, I have the AFv2 pants and plan on getting pet magic acc + H2H through Magian Trials, so I don't see the extra 2 Magic acc as a very useful augment; I would much rather have them for TP, especially since they can be used with THF & COR like I said.
That being said, I still am not sure if the extra double attack would beat out the store tp +5 in terms of TP gain speed. If i get a swift belt and the Cobra body armor (acc+11) it will put me at nearly 92% acc (w/ food) while using the Rajas/Snipers... Hmmm...
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Dec 1st 2008- "Hey maybe they will throw in a B in H2H just because they ignored this issue for so long(pfft yeah right).
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2010 - (03/22/2010) The Version Update Has Arrived!
"The following changes have been made to puppetmaster:
Hand-to-hand combat rating has been raised from rank C to B+."

...Well what'ddya know!
#4 May 06 2010 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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Probably best with:

Haste +3%/ACC+7(never hurts to have accuracy) Rajas/Snipers... I personally use Pantin Tobe when I merit since I deploy my RNG auto within melee distance. +10ACC for them, I think, is better than +1acc/6STP for me. I haven't done the maths or anything behind it, it's just a random assumption.
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#5 May 07 2010 at 1:10 AM Rating: Decent
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i'd love to help you, but im still amazed you get a merit pt on pup. last time i got a merit invite on pup was.... never. id probably just use the acc7 haste3. its better acc than relic, i think highest haste possible in that slot. i only really see stp on 2hand jobs so they can drop a hit in their ws set. and as far as macc, i think it would depend on if you do dyna. since you can buy the key, i think, you could always redo it later when you get the relic.
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#6 May 07 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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3 Haste and 7 accuracy is basically the best combination if you're going to use them as haste pants. In non-bird parties pizza becomes an option, which you will need that accuracy on the legs.

The set you listed would put you at 85.9% accuracy with full merits, I'm not sure how you thought you had 93%.

For birds you need 407, for MMJS I think it's like 420ish.

Pup with full merits starts at about 300 accuracy. You need about 52 accuracy in gear, even with sushi. Your set listed 36.5.

Basically, you still need accuracy to cap hit rate on birds and you're low enough that the 7 additional accuracy on the pants will help you.

Also Sakk, please point to the evidence that a sniper's and rajas are better than lava's kusha's, because the agreement on BG I saw last, coupled with my last results showed the optimal combos be dual 7 acc rings, Rajas with a 7 acc ring, and L/K set all being very comparable. Pup can't easily cap hit rate for TP on most things without usukane so IMO they are interchangable. L/K would be a slight step up from Rajas/Snipers|Ulthalam's when your hit rate isn't capped.

Quick math you need to compare
12acc/6atk vs 7.5acc/2.5atk/1.25fstr
4.5acc/3.5atk vs 1.25fstr

Having 4-5 more accuracy will give you a 2~3% increase in damage, which will do more than an fstr (less than 2% increase in damage). There is a chance that you could get 2fstr, in which case it may be slightly ahead, but that isn't likely. Your dDex should not be high enough to really expect anything from.

Also note that the lower your base accuracy the more benefit there is to increase your accuracy, ie 82.5% acc => 85% is more than a 3% increase in damage. Also, 12 accuracy will be quite close to 14 after sushi whereas Rajas will be ~8.5, further increasing the hit rate increase between the two.
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#7 May 07 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Default
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I forgot to mention that I have full H2H merits, which does put it at the acc % I stated. I'm thinking doing L/K rings w/ swift belt and haste +3 dbl atk+2 augments. Still unsure though ><
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Dec 1st 2008- "Hey maybe they will throw in a B in H2H just because they ignored this issue for so long(pfft yeah right).
LOLSE"

2010 - (03/22/2010) The Version Update Has Arrived!
"The following changes have been made to puppetmaster:
Hand-to-hand combat rating has been raised from rank C to B+."

...Well what'ddya know!
#8 May 07 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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With the gear you stated, 8/8 H2H merits and bream sushi (16% acc.), you have 390.34 accuracy. You need 407-409 accuracy to cap vs lvl 81-82 birds, so you would have a hit rate of 85.67%-86.67%. I don't know where your getting 89.3% from.

At any rate, I'd be inclined to pick Haste +3% and accuracy +7 personally. Nothing in the leg slot will beat that for Tp with uncapped accuracy (Or within 2-3% of accuracy cap, which with the gear you state, you aren't), asides from usu legs with the full set.
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#9 May 07 2010 at 7:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok I see this piece in 3 different lights.
1)Pet Augments
2)TP(haste aswell) Gear
3)WS Gear (yes thats right)

Ok so the Possible augments as it applies to #2 and #3 (only these because I assume you don't want Pet Augs?) is Haste+3%, DA+2%, Crit DMG+3% and also ACC+7. Now for WS Gear, it seems like they would be things all the other jobs would be going for too so why not PUP? Look at it this way:

Stringing Pummel being our shine on the Master, a 6-hit ws, depends on our acc majorly and a major focus in our gear. First off, Crit DMG+3% looks actually viable, if we feel acc is ok the +3% CritDMG to a Multi-hit WS that already has a innate Crit Hit Rate+ is already there. Second I think the DA+% is better than it appears to be. Ok, so looking at your gear, lets assume through what you tell us is 89% ACC. Therefore, you will miss 11 times in 50 rounds (100hits).

Now, I want to try looking at ACC/Hit Rate as individual hits for the time being. Saying that each hit has about a 89% chance to hit. Applying this to SP (stringing Pummel) would be (.89)(6) which is 5.34, meaning that you should hit about 5/6 hits most of the time, but 6/6 is a tad bit reachable.

Next, Lets apply Double Attack from gear. From Aesir Mantle(ignoring the Darkday effect for this, but it will make a considerable difference) you get +1%DA, Brutal Earring gives +5% (equivalent to DA trait for those who don't have one) and from the Augment you get +2%DA. The Total being +8% (+9% from DarkDay effect) thus leading us to logically apply that you will get 8 extra hits every 50 rounds(again 100hits).

Ok, Let's Apply DA to this concept. So Hypothetically according to individual hits, there is a .08% chance for the hit to be DA according to your gear. Sounds reasonable too. Now Lets apply this to Stringing Pummel. Its a 6-hit WS, so assuming that SP's hits are similar to Regular hits (your gear has no WS ACC+ so naturally I'm assuming they are Regular hits) that means that SP(DA)=(.08%)(6) ---> SP(DA)=(.48%) (w/o Augment it leaves it at .36% DA)

Now, Lets compare the Double Attack Chance. With Augment Every 2 SPs should have 1 DA, However without the Augment you need about 2.7 or rather 3 SPs (can't split weaponskills for this sry ;p) to have 1 DA occur in the WS. This is a Large difference in terms of WS's preformed to reach a desired effect.

Simply, let's see how this applies to ACC. If ACC is 89%, or 5.34/6 for SP we can see how DA will affect your WS. Now, using the 1 extra hit from 12 hits (2 SPs) we can see the hit rate for the WSs. So, 13 being the number of hits (DA occuring in 2 SPs) we just multiply it by .89 (the hit rate for every punch) to see how much it improves acc approx. The Number of hits that should land for the 2 SPs is equal to 11.57/13 where w/o the DA 2 SPs is equal to 10.68/12.

Conclusively, Double Attack adds a somewhat noticeable difference Accuracy wise the DA is basically adding a .445% to the 5.34/6 Hit Rate, boosting it to 5.745/6 hit to each Stringing Pummel. Now you may be wondering why its out of 6 hits, well this is me making the logic of how the DA possibility is somewhat like another chance to hit the 6/6 hits on SP, if you get what I mean I applaude you lol...I know how confusing it sounds ;p. But, this is why I think Double Attack shouldn't be overlooked completely anyways as it applys to WS.

Lastly, applying to WS, I like to point out the possibility through damage through /war and the Darksday effect of Aesir Mantle is another +6%. So I'm sure, through that you imagine the possibility of a total of +14% Double Attack :)
Theres .84% for Double Attack in one SP or 6 hits, or about 100% for that extra hit every 7.14 hits (lets just do 7 for sake of simplicity) ok so every 7 hits = 1 extra hit. So for every for every 7 SPs, you get 6 Extra hits where w/o the /war and Darksday Effect its 2.5 extra hits for every 7 SPs. This is true because 7 SPs = 42 hits there for for every 7 hits there is one extra, 42/7 = 6, so there is 6 hits per 7 SPs.

Ok so applying DA to 42 hits which is 48, and applying acc, thats 42.78/48 hits should land. with the other one, thats 42 hits so DA gives 45 hits, when ACC applied thats thats 40.05/45. Now lets apply both of them with the final step with Acc per ws. Now for the first one, w/o DA from augment or /war (its basically just from his gear) and 7SPs you get 37.38/42 hits. So the difference is 5.4 hits for 7 SPs (for one SP its 5.4/7) or .771 hit land for each SP. This takes it from 5.34/6 to 6.071/6 hit landed. This Proves that the DA Effect is Better than going for capped ACC because the DA allows to give DMG over that of a Full-Hit Stringing Pummel.

So Through and Through I wanted to show you the usefulness of Double Attack sry for rant.

However, I do want to say, if you are planning to use this for TP gear I just suggest you choose what you want for it, DA isn't a bad choice of course, ACC+7 is pretty good too, and of course Haste+3% is a totally acceptable option. With Haste from that, Pantin Hands, Turban and Headlong leads to a total of +14% Haste so Its up to you what you want for TP gain gear. Since you gonna use it for THF, I'd go with either ACC+7/Haste+3% or DA+2%/Haste+3% (lol an extra round (cuz its dual weild) for every 100 hits from the DA+2% on THF seems cool cuz you got TA as well on that job ;p). However the Crit DMG+ isn't bad for thf either if you use DE due to the Critical properties of Dancing Edge as well.

In Conclusion of the whole thing, if You do go for it as WS gear only for PUP(and THF I suppose), I highly suggest DA+2%/Crit DMG+ but if you want TPing gear piece only, I suggest Haste and w/e you want for Preference, if you choose DA+2% for the piece, then you might want to get either one +7 Ring for the TP set up, and if you want more acc for a WS setup go with +7ACC rings x2 for WS and just use Rajas for TPing :). But thats my Opinion thanks for Reading ^^
#10 May 07 2010 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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It's too late to point out all the flaws in the post above me, but it's wrong about WS gear and DA.

TP options:
acc/haste is only competing against Usu and barb zerehs. personally I chose this combo, although I typically use usu on pup and these were for evasive mobs and for my thief. if you don't have either other haste pants there's no competition for this being a good improvement only whether or not you tend to use pup in a situation where you also melee

Pet options:
you can choose 7macc or 7pet acc/pet-stp to drop a hit for VE. if you do CoP tav you can get AF2+1 legs and there wouldn't be a point to choose the macc. The pet acc is infeior to herder's subligar so it would only be if you wanted the STP from it and eah to that combo. The pet atk is stupid and not worth getting.

If you often nuke kited the pet macc and movement speed is a good combo, though not a substantial enough improvement for me to even consider it. remember that haste/acc is a solid combo for all the non-haidate owning/wearing jobs that can use tassets (except rng). Cors, blus, thfs, pups, and then bsts/nins w/o haidate all would use that combo. Pup is the only one that gains from pet macc, though the others cold also benefit from using movement speed (even though most have it from skadi's).

Now the real clincher, ws options:
This needs to be a pure damage piece if you are even considering it as an option. Why?

Surge Subligar 12acc 6atk

Ya, the above basically negates any real WS piece you could make out of this. You could do DA, crit damage, or atk though none of them seem that great. Crit damage only affects critical hits and is only 3%. So if you have two crits, that's a 1% increase in damage, potentially less. Note that DA is pretty mediocre just because it's decreasing returns and you should probably be consistently swinging 7 times anyways.

Too lazy to do all the math for it now, but you will always get less accuracy from this than surge subligar, which is a huge deciding factor for a job constantly having accuracy issues (basically mandatory without a 25acc anwig).

Crit damage will only affect critical hits and you won't easily be getting high dDex without usukane and usukane would be a better option than tassets for pure damage.

DA is a mediocre stat that would provide less benefit than just accuracy. On average a 2% chance to DA should be behind a flame ring for actual damage increased.

Summary, TP haste/acc is the best improvement for a multi-event pup, which the choice can be used for other jobs. The pet stats are mediocre or matched by other attainable gear, though if you're lazy and limited macc/movement is an okay combo if you lack AF2+1 and hermes (or want MS on another job). These make mediocre WS pants and you should just get Surge Subligar or Usukane, not waste your MKD legs for a pup ws.
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#11 May 07 2010 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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I pretty much agree with everything Requim said above. Other considerations/further discussion:

* Hermes' Sandals are 150% BETTER than the movement speed+ on Desultor, and Hermes' + Desultor don't stack. So the movement speed option is kind of a waste on PUP since you have a superior alternative that's easy to obtain. Hermes' aren't THAT expensive, currently 800k on my server and they'll likely experience at least a temporary drop right after Mog Bonanza prizes are given out. If you can't get a R/E drop due to bad luck or not doing an event, that's one thing. But if there's a better AH alternative that's not obscenely priced...

* If you're dead set on going for all out kiting pants, honestly you'd probably be better with Pet MAcc and Evasion, and use Hermes' for your movement speed.

* Pet Magic is good, but even if you don't have Relic+1, NQ Relic are so close as to make this kind of a wasted choice in my eyes when you could get something both (a) more unique for PUP, and (b) more useful for multiple jobs instead of turning this solidly into a PUP only piece. Now, if you don't do Dynamis at all... Pet M.Acc is a great choice.

* Remember to consider other jobs too if you have anything else that can use Desultors. I use my Acc/Haste Desultors as the best haste TP pants in the game for both my PUP and COR. I also use them as sort of a Byakko's Haidate -1 for my MNK (and soon for my currently 65NIN), because I don't do sky and don't plan to. Just because Acc/Haste Desultors aren't necessarily THE BEST haste TP legs for the Haidate wearing jobs doesn't mean Desultors suck, they are still among the small handful of best choices for TP legs. And they are THE best for several jobs - PUP DNC (the best), THF COR (probably better than Skadi for most situations and no worse than a sidegrade situationally), and arguably for BLU (they beat Homam from a pure melee perspective).

Edited, May 8th 2010 11:04pm by Anza
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#12 May 08 2010 at 12:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Yea, there really wasn't any chance of me using these for WS since there's Surge Sub. out there which is easily soloable. No one has really answered my question though, if i CAN get acc to ~93% using the L/K rings, should I do dbl atk on the pants?
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Dec 1st 2008- "Hey maybe they will throw in a B in H2H just because they ignored this issue for so long(pfft yeah right).
LOLSE"

2010 - (03/22/2010) The Version Update Has Arrived!
"The following changes have been made to puppetmaster:
Hand-to-hand combat rating has been raised from rank C to B+."

...Well what'ddya know!
#13 May 08 2010 at 12:06 AM Rating: Good
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meh, nevermind, I guess theres more than enough evidence to point to haste/acc, I'm just stubborn.
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Dec 1st 2008- "Hey maybe they will throw in a B in H2H just because they ignored this issue for so long(pfft yeah right).
LOLSE"

2010 - (03/22/2010) The Version Update Has Arrived!
"The following changes have been made to puppetmaster:
Hand-to-hand combat rating has been raised from rank C to B+."

...Well what'ddya know!
#14 May 09 2010 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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DA is basically as silly as choosing kicks on the pants, it's just an inferior combination in general.

If all you did on PUP is campaign, haste/DA or haste/KA could work. If you do any other event chances are you would need the accuracy.

Also, just like I told you in my original response, you don't have that high of accuracy. You won't have that kind of accuracy in good gear. This is a silly argument.

Before you could even consider DA for merits, you would need to upgrade your body to at least AF2+1 or Mirke w/10 acc. You would need to get a faith torque, a PCC, or ancient torque. You would need Pantin Cape. You would need L/K rings or toreador's/sniper's+1. You would also need to get swift belt.

And even after all those changes you would still be better off swapping other gear because 7 accuracy is significantly more valuable than 2% DA. Think about it this way, 7 accuracy will basically be increasing your damage by 3.5-4%, whereas 2% DA is going to be giving you like 1.8% due to how accuracy and DA actually affect damage.

Values below 1 have increasing returns, you get more out of them. Accuracy is always less than 1 so you will be getting slightly better returns on damage, .95/.90 = 5.56 for example. Haste has significantly better returns with 1/(1-haste) that means that at 50% haste you're actually attacking twice as fast, 1/.5=2. However double attack is a value over 1 that can't stack with itself. You have a 2% chance to get an extra attack, which will be on top of your base brutal 5% or /war 15%. This is a change of 1.07/1.05=1.9% or 1.17/1.15=1.7%. Basically the more double attack you have the less helpful it is because it conflicts with itself and you're better off upgrading another stat to make the hits you do land harder.


Also 7macc/movement speed has the added benefit of not having to gear swap your nukes, which has some emotional utility. You will be better off kiting in hermes, but if you're lazy you could potentially just make kiting pants with 7macc on them so you don't need to gear swap, as opposed to just full timing hermes over AF2 feets. Personally I wouldn't waste my MKD pants on this combo, but if your other jobs want movement speed pants it could be a potential option.

It all comes down to what jobs you have and how you use them. If you never melee anything difficult haste/acc isn't as needed. Haste/DA or /KA could potentially provide you a better bonus for what you spend your time doing. If you had capped accuracy without being able to swap out other gear to make use of acc on pants, sure DA could improve your damage. Unfortunately, most end game situations your accuracy won't be capped and if it is you're better off making other gear decisions. Drop your accuracy earring for an attack earring, swap out an accuracy ring for thunder or flame rings. Etc etc.
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#15 May 09 2010 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
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>< just found the problem in my math, was using 277 H2H by accident instead of 272 @_@ that pretty much would have answered my questions and delusions that I had hit 95% acc >< FML
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Dec 1st 2008- "Hey maybe they will throw in a B in H2H just because they ignored this issue for so long(pfft yeah right).
LOLSE"

2010 - (03/22/2010) The Version Update Has Arrived!
"The following changes have been made to puppetmaster:
Hand-to-hand combat rating has been raised from rank C to B+."

...Well what'ddya know!
#16 May 10 2010 at 2:29 AM Rating: Good
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How do you feel about Usukane Hizarori instead of ASA Pants with +7acc/+3haste? I'm just slightly tempted to give my ASA pants +7acc/+7eva for the sake of having a full-EVA setup for situations that call for an EVA setup. Or I could just try and get an EVA augment on Combat Caster's Slacks, lol. (Actually, that might be an even better idea...)

:) Now before you knock me with "seriously? an eva setup? how old are you, 2?" I've used an EVA setup for sticky situations before. I've had a party start to wipe to a NM so I switched over to Soulsoother, grabbed hate, and held it while we regained composure. Came in very handy, and I've done this more than once. It's also useful when feeling lazy while fighting easy prey for WS Points to save cures, or when my automaton dies while soloing and I need to survive for the few minutes activate might have left on it. Keep an open mind! :)
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#17 May 10 2010 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not too sure, ASA legs are going to have 5.5 acc (depends on where your DEX is) over usu. That makes it 5.5 acc versus STR+5 attack+10. Offhand I'd have to say usu would come out ahead, but really, **** is situational. +2.25% hitrate at 80% hitrate is about a 2.8% increase, which shouldn't be too hard for 1.25 fSTR and 12.5 attack to beat. Then again increasing hitrate increases WS rate, which attack doesn't do. Usu might still pull ahead depending on where your hitrate/attack are at. My gut would tell me to default to usu, but it's a hard call to make. If I had one I wouldn't bother going for the other. I'm 2/3 on usu legs and once I finish them I don't intend to get ASA legs for PUP.
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#18 May 10 2010 at 6:02 AM Rating: Decent
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I would criticize 7acc/7eva because why do you want accuracy with evasion? At least haste/eva is an utsusemi macro.

The pants only have 2 evasion more than their predecessor, which isn't that great to swap, but I don't utilize evasion builds too often so it could definitely be more worthwhile for you. Personally if I wasn't getting them for haste I would want something unique on them, like maybe conserve TP or waltz cost -5, just something you can't emulate in another piece of gear.

As far as haste/acc vs usu it really depends on what you're fighting. Remember pups almost exclusively eat pizza or sushi, so you can expect to get ~6 more accuracy from ASA (also realized I was calling it MKD, oops).

On average you will be getting at least a 3% increase from ASA legs whereas usu give you 1.25fstr and 12.5atk, which fstr should be around a 1.9% increase in base damage. with a small chance for roughly double that. The attack will also be around a 3-3.5% increase in total attack, which I would think could give you at least around a 1% increase in damage (too lazy atm to actually find pidf after expected buffs bla bla).

In relatively quick math I would put say they are basically even with usu having more potential. Personally I use my usu more often, but if I notice my accuracy being super low I'll switch. Or if I am being lazy and not using any food I'll use ASA.
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