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# Mantis or Warfangs?Follow

Apr 04 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
21,708 posts
Drksamus wrote:
So I grabbed a 17 damage h2h weapon (bone patas+1) and did some parsing to calculate in theory what would the +17 Wargfangs would be like.
You wouldn't really even need to. Break down waghs versus wargs into equivalent terms from your previous example:

Drksamus wrote:
Wargs: 1397.73 damage every 41.5 seconds

Waghs: 2380.46 damage every 70 seconds

Wargs: 1397.73 dmg per 41.5 seconds / 41.5 seconds = 33.68 dmg per second

Waghs: 2380.46 dmg per 70 seconds / 70 seconds = 34.01 dmg per second

Not sure how you came up with 1793.65 dmg in 70 sec with DMG:+0 wargfangs. Only way I can figure is that you just added on 28.5 seconds of TPing...? The flaw in looking at damage that way is that you're looking at a continuous situation with a single discrete set. To give a visual example:

```
Wargs       41.5             83
.............WS..........|...WS
.......................WS|
Waghs                  70
```

If you're saying that within 70 seconds waghs are still solidly ahead of wargs (wish the names were a bit more unique...) by only counting the first 70 seconds of the fight, you're missing the fact that after 70 seconds, when waghs are just WSing for the first time, wargfangs are almost ready to WS a second time. Even if the fight lasts 70 seconds, that means that on the next fight wargfangs are ready to WS almost immediately whereas waghs need to gain TP from scratch again.

In that sense you can look at a series of discrete fights as one continuous fight, because over the course of an hour long merit pt (or whatever you may be doing), you'll have run long enough to get a representative sample of what your overall damage over time is. If your merit party is any good, the gap between fights will be essentially nonexistent anyway.

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 1:04pm by bsphil
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Apr 04 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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yeah that is what i thought too but i couldnt really find the words for it. and i find it extremely hard to believe that (by his method) the 0dmg wargs are slightly weaker than waghs, and the +17dmg is only slightly better. adding +17dmg to any weapon will give a large boost in dps, which again, should put wargs miles ahead.
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Apr 04 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
21,708 posts
Well, I'd say that should put wargfangs significantly ahead of waghs, at least on lesser colibri as PUP/WHM. >_>

The gap won't be as drastically large because you're putting the acc/attack on waghs to better use, but it's still going to be a pretty big deal.
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Apr 04 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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yea i added in the dps from tping.
Apr 04 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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the dps in tping wasnt in question. what hes saying is that your sample size is only big enough for both weapons to WS 1 time, in which case, waghs is the winner. but warg's benefit is that based only on the time it took for both to get to WS, wargs tp's 40% faster

this means that if you WS with waghs 100 times, you'll WS with wargs 140 times, in which case, wargs is unquestionably better. and that is based on the +0 dmg weapon.

maybe im just overestimating them, i hope not because id hate to be disappointed when i finally finish it
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Apr 08 2010 at 2:46 AM Rating: Excellent
1,088 posts
So it's been a while since anyone's come out with any new information since that little field test. Is anyone close to finishing the DMG+17 Wargs so we can see whether they indeed do pull ahead of waghs or don't? I'm working on mine for the heck of it... 196 lizards to go. :<

Edited, Apr 8th 2010 1:48am by Kametame
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Apr 08 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I still have 220 lizards to go :'( but I am going for the warfangs dmg +17 OAT. Hopefully I will have time this weekend to at least get the Lizards & Puks done.
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Apr 08 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
376 posts
i have 220 lizards to go too, but im not in too much of a rush until i find some way to regularly kill blobdingnags
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Apr 09 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Excellent
857 posts
I'm already on the Baby Blobdnignag x10 trial, but I can't get a T3 pop to save my life.

BTW, those of you on the Lizard trial, find a Lv. 10 n00b and level sync down. Spam kill easy prey lizards in South Gustaberg at the Leaping Lizzy camp. I finished off the 400 lizards trial in about 3-4 hours, and the n00b pretty much gets a free ride all the way to Lv. 16.
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Apr 09 2010 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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YeagertheBearded wrote:
I'm already on the Baby Blobdnignag x10 trial, but I can't get a T3 pop to save my life.

BTW, those of you on the Lizard trial, find a Lv. 10 n00b and level sync down. Spam kill easy prey lizards in South Gustaberg at the Leaping Lizzy camp. I finished off the 400 lizards trial in about 3-4 hours, and the n00b pretty much gets a free ride all the way to Lv. 16.

Thanks for the suggestion. 300 Puks to go now and the weakest of those are the level 60 ones... :<

Edit: On the upside, 3/5 STR merits now.

Edited, Apr 9th 2010 10:05pm by Kametame
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Apr 20 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
101 posts
so i see weve strayed from the original question, i see tests on waghs vs wargs....but where is the math on a 21dmg +55delay h2h vs 17 140delay OAT on? just curious cuz im trying to decide a path and i really dont wanna have to do this twice lol
Apr 20 2010 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
21,708 posts
BiggHowie wrote:
so i see weve strayed from the original question, i see tests on waghs vs wargs....but where is the math on a 21dmg +55delay h2h vs 17 140delay OAT on? just curious cuz im trying to decide a path and i really dont wanna have to do this twice lol
There is no reason to take the DMG:+0 OAT weapon. It's junk. The DMG+17 weapon is very good.

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Apr 20 2010 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
BiggHowie wrote:
so i see weve strayed from the original question, i see tests on waghs vs wargs....but where is the math on a 21dmg +55delay h2h vs 17 140delay OAT on? just curious cuz im trying to decide a path and i really dont wanna have to do this twice lol
There is no reason to take the DMG:+0 OAT weapon. It's junk. The DMG+17 weapon is very good.

He wasn't talking about the DMG+0 wargs, though...

We've yet to take any comparisons of mantis vs wargs, though. So far, what we have proven is that the DMG+17 wargs are quite formidable.
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Apr 20 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
21,708 posts
Kametame wrote:
bsphil wrote:
BiggHowie wrote:
so i see weve strayed from the original question, i see tests on waghs vs wargs....but where is the math on a 21dmg +55delay h2h vs 17 140delay OAT on? just curious cuz im trying to decide a path and i really dont wanna have to do this twice lol
There is no reason to take the DMG:+0 OAT weapon. It's junk. The DMG+17 weapon is very good.

He wasn't talking about the DMG+0 wargs, though...

We've yet to take any comparisons of mantis vs wargs, though. So far, what we have proven is that the DMG+17 wargs are quite formidable.
We already know where Mantis stands though. It's situationally an upgrade from waghs, depending on the target. I made quite a long post myself about it. EDIT: I didn't realize that it came from a separate thread, I've blended two magian weapon threads together. Here is the post about Mantis. The logical statement below still applies.

A = waghs
B = Mantis
C = DMG:+0 wargs
D = DMG:+17 wargs

If A ~= B and C is slightly less than A, knowing D is far superior to C makes D > A.

Edited, Apr 20th 2010 4:27pm by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
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Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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Apr 21 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
2,235 posts
bsphil wrote:
The logical statement below still applies.

A = waghs
B = Mantis
C = DMG:+0 wargs
D = DMG:+17 wargs

If A ~= B and C is slightly less than A, knowing D is far superior to C makes D > A.

Wait, wait, wait... what?

I take issue with the "C is slightly less than A" part. Going to run some math (correct me if I accidentally put mnk numbers in here instead of pup).

Skill: 256 + 16 merits = 272 skill = 32 base damage; 33 w/Faith Torque. Using 32 as base value.

Waghs: 5.7 TP/Hit + Rajas + Brutal = 6.0 per hit
Wargs: 6.6 TP/Hit + Rajas + Brutal = 6.9 per hit

Assume weaponskill returns 2 hits + 3-4 TP, Hits needed to 100 TP:
Waghs: 15
Wargs: 13

Hits per round:
Waghs: 2.1
Wargs: 1 + .4 + 1.05 + .6 * .05 = 2.48

Rounds per weaponskill (ignoring acc):
Waghs: 7.1
Wargs: 5.2

Rough estimate of modifiers:
WSC: ~38
fStr: 4
cRatio: arbitrary 1.0

Average damage:
Waghs: 54
Wargs00: 36
Wargs17: 53

Assuming 1 additional hit per 100 TP, melee damage per weaponskill:
Waghs: 864
Wargs00: 504
Wargs17: 742

Nominal dmg per weaponskill hit:
Waghs: 32+18+38+4 = 92
Wargs00: 32+0+38+4 = 74
Wargs17: 32+17+38+4 = 91

Weaponskill damage (without crits, 95% acc):
Waghs: 511
Wargs00: 411
Wargs17: 505

Total damage per weaponskill cycle (excluding crits):
Waghs: 864 + 511 = 1,375
Wargs00: 504 + 411 = 915
Wargs17: 742 + 505 = 1,247

Delay per round:
Waghs: 360+60 = 420
Wargs: 360+140 = 500

Time per cycle @ 100% melee accuracy:
Waghs: 7.1 * 420 + 120 = 3,102
Wargs: 5.2 * 500 + 120 = 2,720

Time per cycle @ 80% melee accuracy:
Waghs: 7.1 * 420 / .8 + 120 = 3,848
Wargs: 5.2 * 500 / .8 + 120 = 3,370

Overall DPS @ 100% melee accuracy:
Waghs: 26.6
Wargs00: 20.2
Wargs17: 27.5

Overall DPS @ 80% melee accuracy:
Waghs: 21.4
Wargs00: 16.3
Wargs17: 22.2

Overall this puts Wargs17 ahead of Waghs by about 3.5%, and Waghs ahead of Warg00's by over 30%. That includes neither Waghs' bonuses (acc+att) nor its detriment (losing latent over 100 TP). The accuracy should be worth ~3% while the attack should be worth ~4.5%. Total gain from the latent should be around +7.5% (with situational variations). Loss in fundamental damage from losing latent is roughly 1% total damage per 10 TP held over 100 on average (this is from mnk calculations; not going to redo them here).

Waghs get slightly more melee crits per weaponskill cycle, Wargs get more benefit from crits on the weaponskill itself. Not going to factor those in, but it might give a small additional advantage to Wargs.

Implication is that Waghs matches Warg17's when used regularly by about 120 TP. Warg00's shouldn't be even remotely close.

Going back to the base post by Drksamus comparing Warg00's with Waghs, he gave 5 attack rounds needed to weaponskill with Wargs and 10 attack rounds needed to wepaonskill with Waghs. With perfect accuracy and 2.1 hits per round, 10 rounds would give 126 TP to Waghs; with perfect accuracy and 2.48 hits per round, 5 rounds gives 85.5 TP to Wargs. That difference clearly heavily skews the resulting conclusion, essentially removing one third of Wagh's weaponskill damage to make the comparison, as well as skewing the weaponskill cycle numbers.

Can someone confirm TP/hit for pups using Waghs? My calculations say 5.7 base, 6.0 with Rajas+Brutal; Drksamus claimed 5.5.

Edited, Apr 21st 2010 9:19pm by Kinematics
Apr 21 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Good
1,088 posts
Kinematics wrote:

Can someone confirm TP/hit for pups using Waghs? My calculations say 5.7 base, 6.0 with Rajas+Brutal; Drksamus claimed 5.5.

You are correct. The TP gain from waghs is 5.7 base, 6.0 with Rajas + Brutal. It seems what you're saying is that Wargs17 seem to be only on par with Waghs (latent on), and even at times worse than Waghs... or at least that's what the 0.38 extra attacks have to outweigh.

Edited, Apr 21st 2010 9:05pm by Kametame
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Apr 22 2010 at 8:11 AM Rating: Decent
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It seems like they are all fairly interchangeable with Wagh's and Hades.

Mantis was slightly ahead of destroyers for mnk going off what I heard last on BG, which means it will probably be beating Wagh's for pup, though not by much. 3dmg -5dly vs 5acc 14atk is close, with the attack ~ to a point of damage or two and the accuracy worth a point of damage or two.

Wargs were inferior for mnk, however, mnk also has lower base delay and a lower ws:tp ratio (30:70). It could pull ahead if you were punching a wall, but honestly I would see it failing in the field due to people not WSing immediately and just being slower in general. It would replace hope staff for OAT weapons though, which has uses for /dnc!

Unless the magian weapons can be upgraded again they seem like a huge time sink for sidegrades. I'm guessing/hoping the 0 dmg one will possibly be upgradable to a OA x 3 with VNM tier 4 items if they do introduce more trials, but at the moment either Wargs (0/17) are just so slow.

Had they been +80-100 delay (normal +48-60) it would be significantly cooler and comparable to every other OAT weapon, but a penalty of 80-92 delay is just ridiculous when basically all the other ones only have a ~15 delay penalty. Hell, the GA only has a 10 delay penalty and the GS is faster than the standard GS (and can keep 6hit).
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Jun 22 2010 at 1:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Wargfangs17 now attacks on both hands! now theres 2 more upgrades, the nq *lower base dmg* and the higher base dmg one >< 50 items of something I have never heard of.
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Jun 22 2010 at 3:01 AM Rating: Good
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Don't forget that the 0 damage OAT wargs also got upgraded, now with one crappy one with 7 double attack and 23 base damage, the other with 0 damage still... but occasionally attacks 2-3 times!

Light the pahn signal!
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Jun 22 2010 at 3:13 AM Rating: Good
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takawaka wrote:
Wargfangs17 now attacks on both hands! now theres 2 more upgrades, the nq *lower base dmg* and the higher base dmg one >< 50 items of something I have never heard of.

Not only that, but it seems like DA stacks with the OAT. Friend of mine got five hits on a round, though it could be attributed to lag.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2010 2:13am by Kametame
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Jun 22 2010 at 3:56 AM Rating: Decent
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i just did more field testing and yeah got some 5 hitters here and there! man im happy i worked on these regardless of how much crap i got from some people >_< , im no math person but building tp just got crazier @_@ the new oats look even more badass!
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Jun 22 2010 at 4:12 AM Rating: Good
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This begs the question... Did kenkonken/glauzfaust's aftermath get fixed as well? :o
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Jun 22 2010 at 4:36 AM Rating: Decent
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they did word it as if all h2h that has oc. atk twice was fixed. anyone have a kenk XD? man 79 is far , head hurts.... what scares me is the next level cap means even more work to stay at least up to date, thats in three months? i hope the collect stuff nms are t3 and not new full blown nms designed to grind 80's into a fine pulp XD, whats next ?!

Gold Pimpfinger DMG: 35 delay 140 occ. atks too much
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Jun 22 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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i like "occasional attacks too much". if anyone lights the pahn signal, all i have to say is get D+17 OAT. i'm assuming the proc rate is still 40%, but now it apparently works like faith (both hands, allows DA). unlikely they'll release anything more powerful than that, though of course it itself might get more powerful via the magian stuff.

i mean, you could do math on it, but it's going to be so wildly ahead of, say, waghs, that you should be able to parse or even eyeball the difference. re: +0 damage, 40%~ DA is 40% more melee DoT and WS (from the TP). i don't offhand know what PUP h2h skill is like nowadays (or how it scales with these new levels being gained), but for MNK75s of old, mantis is around a 45%~ melee damage increase over no weapon, so it would even out w/ the OAT +0 damage (would actually do more melee damage than the OAT), and would do a bit less WS damage assuming stringing pummel since it has okay secondary mods.

my point is that i wouldn't rush out to get +0, since it's kind of a sidegrade at best. i admit that i'm not aware of how hard it is to get the +17 OAT, but it's something to shoot for.
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Jun 22 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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Warfangs sound amazing now... yet I just dropped Trial 71 to switch paths and go for the Mantis > Verethragna path.

How does Verethragna (with no mods) stack up to the fixed wargfangs?

(DMG+27, Delay +51)
Jun 23 2010 at 8:41 AM Rating: Decent
36 posts
Well OAT is OAT..and thats what its always going to be..

Mantis is +dmg and then what in a future update. I think looking at future updates you may be better off going for +dmg... What will they add... +dmg with OAT.. hmm. .... I am still on the fence about the OAT since it really doesnt seem like when the magian trials are over that it will be the epic weapon.
Jun 23 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
3,816 posts
I like to note that, the path with no damage on it (+0 onry) Now has the option of occasionally attacks 2-3 times.
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