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New weapons - COR on daggerFollow

#1 Aug 27 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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Interesting to see that COR is on the Dagger in the new S-E weapons video, along with THF/BRD/DNC.

Stats are - Lv95 DMG:49 Delay:189 DEX+15 Crit Rate+5% Occasionally deals severe damage

I've personally been more of a convert to the Dagger style than many here, and I'm excited to see COR getting added to things like this really strong crit-focused dagger. Certainly too early to say for sure (who's to say we're not on a gun with equally beefy ranged stats), but it could be a hint as to S-E's possible future plans for which gear COR gets access to.

To me it feels like outside of WS and some situational uses, shooting is becoming a thing of the past when you consider the COR gear in the Abyssea era like Loki's, Ocelot hands/legs, Epona's, Twilight Belt, Atheling, Cuauhtli set, and even some COR-specific stuff like Navarch hands. Fast attack speed, lots of crits.
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#2 Aug 27 2011 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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my main question is: what the heck is "severe damage"? Is it like regular crit hits on crack, or just a better chance of critting than before?
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#3 Aug 27 2011 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
Interesting to see that COR is on the Dagger in the new S-E weapons video, along with THF/BRD/DNC.

Stats are - Lv95 DMG:49 Delay:189 DEX+15 Crit Rate+5% Occasionally deals severe damage

I've personally been more of a convert to the Dagger style than many here, and I'm excited to see COR getting added to things like this really strong crit-focused dagger. Certainly too early to say for sure (who's to say we're not on a gun with equally beefy ranged stats), but it could be a hint as to S-E's possible future plans for which gear COR gets access to.

To me it feels like outside of WS and some situational uses, shooting is becoming a thing of the past when you consider the COR gear in the Abyssea era like Loki's, Ocelot hands/legs, Epona's, Twilight Belt, Atheling, Cuauhtli set, and even some COR-specific stuff like Navarch hands. Fast attack speed, lots of crits.




I always thought this job is made to use both melee and ranged attack though, if you look at the combat skill rating. Just not an expert at both melee and ranged. RNG has access to better ammo, DNC and THF has access to better melee and DW gears. Melee on COR does have situational use, besides getting TP to WS. Haste samba and stun with /DNC is one thing I can think of, but the attack speed of COR is just pretty terrible compare with THF and DNC.

Personally I like swords better, pirates in movies uses sword mostly. I really hope SE can make some better sword WS that's not empy WS in the future so I can play with swords more ._.

IMO atm "gun mage" play style is the only DD play style that's unique and this job excel at, and won't fall into DNC/THF/RNG-1 category.
#4 Aug 27 2011 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
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Suspect our time to melee will drop considerably once we can put up 3 rolls. Unless we get PR duration +++ in gear or merits, it's going to be a challenge to engage with mobs.

The biggest disadvantage we have to DNC and THF is not the fact that they can out damage a COR. It's the fact they can out evade COR. Which means for a number of mobs, they can solo or low man tank face to face. That makes meleeing with a good dagger far more important for them.

For COR, the opportunities to take melee swings is pretty finite. Not sure I'd go through an arduous VWNM process for that dagger if COR was my only job that can use it.


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#5 Aug 27 2011 at 11:03 PM Rating: Good
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Afania wrote:
attack speed of COR is just pretty terrible compare with THF and DNC.


I don't know that I'd say "terrible"...

Zelus Tiara, Twilight Belt, Ocelot hands and legs, aurore/dusk feet = 24% haste for not a crazy-unreasonable set. And you could even squeeze out more haste with Tiercel necklace and Dusk+1 hands. Add a Suppa to the mix, Dual Wield III from /NIN (same tier as THF gets)... that's not bad. A THF isn't going to be using any extra enhance DW gear other than 3% from Raider's Boomerang. And COR can use Blitzer's Roll, which is actually really effective for DW melee.

Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely not saying COR beats THF or DNC for melee DD (DNC especially has a considerable DW advantage through additional tier of DW trait and their AF3 body). But I don't want to misrepresent COR as awful when we really do have legit gear to pull off solid dagger melee.

Dartagnann wrote:
Suspect our time to melee will drop considerably once we can put up 3 rolls. Unless we get PR duration +++ in gear or merits, it's going to be a challenge to engage with mobs.

The biggest disadvantage we have to DNC and THF is not the fact that they can out damage a COR. It's the fact they can out evade COR. Which means for a number of mobs, they can solo or low man tank face to face. That makes meleeing with a good dagger far more important for them.


I do think both of these are extremely good points. But for situations where melee is viable, it's nice to see COR getting on some high end weapons instead of those being THF/DNC only, like magian daggers or Auric Dagger for instance.

I still see myself being buffs first priority, "gun mage" firing off QD second, but dagger melee now solidly into third. Ranged is super-situational for me now, my ranged gear is usually for Slug only and I frankly won't miss Slug a bit if it ever becomes truly irrelevant for non-Wildfire users. I don't even always bring my Slug set with me now... Leaden with appropriate atma does the job well, and Evisceration isn't too shabby of an alternative (especially if you're doing something easy where it isn't even worth wasting ammo on Slug).

Edited, Aug 28th 2011 1:10am by Anza
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#6 Aug 28 2011 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Melee is generally best for trash mobs at this stage in the game. Ranged is generally the ticket for anything above that. Its nice to have another toy at least.
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#7 Aug 28 2011 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Suspect our time to melee will drop considerably once we can put up 3 rolls. Unless we get PR duration +++ in gear or merits, it's going to be a challenge to engage with mobs.

The biggest disadvantage we have to DNC and THF is not the fact that they can out damage a COR. It's the fact they can out evade COR. Which means for a number of mobs, they can solo or low man tank face to face. That makes meleeing with a good dagger far more important for them.

For COR, the opportunities to take melee swings is pretty finite. Not sure I'd go through an arduous VWNM process for that dagger if COR was my only job that can use it.





SE haven't mention any detail info about 3 rolls, so I wouldn't worry about it atm. Maybe it's just a JA with 15min recast time, so every 15 min you can do extra roll and that's it.


Plenty of melee jobs can't out eva THF and DNC, but they still has access to good melee weapons. You don't really need the ability to eva tank mobs to have a good weapon XD




Anza wrote:
Afania wrote:
attack speed of COR is just pretty terrible compare with THF and DNC.


I don't know that I'd say "terrible"...

Zelus Tiara, Twilight Belt, Ocelot hands and legs, aurore/dusk feet = 24% haste for not a crazy-unreasonable set. And you could even squeeze out more haste with Tiercel necklace and Dusk+1 hands. Add a Suppa to the mix, Dual Wield III from /NIN (same tier as THF gets)... that's not bad. A THF isn't going to be using any extra enhance DW gear other than 3% from Raider's Boomerang. And COR can use Blitzer's Roll, which is actually really effective for DW melee.




Personally I have 25%(dusk feet+1), suppa and twilight knife offhand, and eponas for double/triple attack. I sometimes go kill some NM with friend with Evi setup, and really, COR's attack speed is terrible compare with THF NIN DNC MNK in same pt even with 25% haste/twilight knife ;(

There are a couple of reasons for this.

1. If I use QD to gain TP, the JA animation will reset attack delay(I think), losing a few attack round. Compare with jobs that just straight melee and ws, using a JA once a while slows things down. With melee atma setup, QD dmg is barely worth anything, it's just for gaining TP that's it.

In fact if you're in high haste situation with a BRD and haste samba, I'm not even sure if using QD is viable, it's possible to lose more than you gain if attack delay capped.

2. THF and DNC not just have more DW gear, but also has massive amount of Triple attack/double attack. THF has triple attack job trait, plus triplus dagger/AF3+2 head, and they can merit it. DNC has Saber dance to enhance DA, which beat the sh*t out of average number DA roll. DNC also has way more DW gear, and 10% haste samba.


I'm not saying it's not doable, personally I think it's fun to melee and I like to melee more than shoot stuff(I lv this job up to 75 pre-abyssea in sword melee style), and I do believe melee is always intended to be part of this job when SE made it. But it's just one aspect that COR doesn't excel atm. On the other hand in terms of ranged magical dmg dealing ability, COR is probably on the top....you got BLM, SMN and SCH that can do the same, but BLM also takes longer to generate enough MP/casting time and it generate lots of enmity and not spammable.


I'm not sure how effective that additional effect is. If that dagger can instantly deal 80% HP dmg of the mob(something like twilight scythe can proc death on the mob), maybe it's worth using against none-NM mobs. Other wise it probably not gonna make a big difference unless you're meleeing in Abyssea.






#8 Aug 29 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Plenty of melee jobs can't out eva THF and DNC, but they still has access to good melee weapons. You don't really need the ability to eva tank mobs to have a good weapon XD


Yes but they win because they just flat out out damage THF and DNC. If you are a dagger wielder, you need a schtick to get a party spot. Low man tanking, soloing and TH are pretty much the reasons THF and DNC get used these days. Not because they can out melee a COR and therefore are uber DD's.

If all a COR could do was slightly out damage a THF or DNC, we still wouldn't get invited for that purpose. We get invited to buff and to do crazy WF brews. None of those things currently require a high end dagger. Not that I don't want a high end dagger. It's just that after all the time I'm spending on Empyrean weapons and trial of Magian weapons, I'm getting burned out on weapon upgrades.
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#9 Aug 29 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not so sure a THF on his own would out-damage a COR with 3 potent rolls.
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#10 Aug 29 2011 at 9:12 PM Rating: Good
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When you consider that a cor has to spend ~20 seconds per roll on average to get a good buff on the rolls instead of meleeing, there is a good chance that the thf is going to come out at least even. That is 20% of melee time when the cor isn't meleeing. Not to mention if they implement the PR recast at 30 seconds when you have an 11 up.

Edited, Aug 29th 2011 10:14pm by Meldi
#11 Aug 29 2011 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
Plenty of melee jobs can't out eva THF and DNC, but they still has access to good melee weapons. You don't really need the ability to eva tank mobs to have a good weapon XD


Yes but they win because they just flat out out damage THF and DNC. If you are a dagger wielder, you need a schtick to get a party spot. Low man tanking, soloing and TH are pretty much the reasons THF and DNC get used these days. Not because they can out melee a COR and therefore are uber DD's.

If all a COR could do was slightly out damage a THF or DNC, we still wouldn't get invited for that purpose. We get invited to buff and to do crazy WF brews. None of those things currently require a high end dagger. Not that I don't want a high end dagger. It's just that after all the time I'm spending on Empyrean weapons and trial of Magian weapons, I'm getting burned out on weapon upgrades.




Unless the game mechanic changes again at lv 91~95, currently high end dagger is only useful in Abyssea with Evi build anyways, and COR is not even useful in Abyssea. Everything else doesn't require a high end dagger at all.

I'm not sure if /DNC or /NIN DW a high dmg dagger+joytoy or Mkris will mathematically beat main hand joy or Mkris and /WAR at lv 95 with higher DPS or not though.

#12 Aug 30 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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A Corsair's job is to do rolls & shoot cards. If we get a chance to shoot it's a bonus. How a corsair can have time to DD with a sword or dagger is beyond me. It's like asking a rdm to DD instead of enfeebling / curing / nuking.

It would be nice if SE gave us a weapon that is bette then a HQ fire staff :)
#13 Aug 30 2011 at 11:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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MK187 wrote:
A Corsair's job is to do rolls & shoot cards. If we get a chance to shoot it's a bonus. How a corsair can have time to DD with a sword or dagger is beyond me. It's like asking a rdm to DD instead of enfeebling / curing / nuking.


If you want to debate melee versus ranged, that's one thing. To say we should do NEITHER is lazy bullsh*t unless you're rolling/busting non-stop trying to keep all XIs up.

Yes, the primary role of COR is to buff. You can fire off some instant QDs in between with no problem. There is plenty of time left to do other things in between. Whether re-rolling, melee, ranged, or even casting spells while /mage (eww). You DO have time to do one of those things.

It's not hard to run around and buff while still engaged to the mob. It's also not hard to put up a DD roll on the melees while you're in there swinging away with them.

Meldi wrote:
When you consider that a cor has to spend ~20 seconds per roll on average to get a good buff on the rolls instead of meleeing, there is a good chance that the thf is going to come out at least even. That is 20% of melee time when the cor isn't meleeing. Not to mention if they implement the PR recast at 30 seconds when you have an 11 up.


You know you don't have to actually re-roll every 30 seconds, right? With Nav+2 hands and winning streak merits, once you get a good roll on yourself solo you can leave it there for quite a while. I like to space them out a bit when I start and then just keep XIs on myself. If you're solo you can just re-roll in between mobs while running around anyway, it's not really as if you're losing 20 seconds of pure melee time.

I'm not sure I beat a THF solo, but it's not too far off... If I've been doing something like an elemental magian trial maybe I'll come /DNC and toss up Blitzer's/Tactician's, it does well. If I had a 3rd pure DD roll, I wouldn't be at all surprised to outdo a THF.


Edited, Aug 30th 2011 1:51pm by Anza
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#14 Aug 30 2011 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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That's the point i was trying to get across. With Rolls, QD, doing /ra and WS. When does a corsair have time to swing at a mob with a dagger?
#15 Aug 30 2011 at 10:28 PM Rating: Default
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MK187 wrote:
That's the point i was trying to get across. With Rolls, QD, doing /ra and WS. When does a corsair have time to swing at a mob with a dagger?




If you do old game content like Nyzul/Ein/limbus/assault on this job, those mobs will die too fast that you can't get TP at all if you /ra, so melee is still a better choice.

Except I wouldn't use a dagger in those situations as well, unless it's mathematically proven that melee with a D49 dagger and focus on more DPS deals more dmg than multi-hit weapon and WS dmg focus.

If that "deal severe damage" is truly awesome, it may actually replace multi-hit weapon though.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 12:29am by Afania
#16 Aug 30 2011 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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doctorugh wrote:
I'm not so sure a THF on his own would out-damage a COR with 3 potent rolls.



THF on his own is pretty self-efficient though.

THF also has innate DW(that means you can /WAR for higher dmg and DA and won't lose offhand hit when you do dagger WS) and offensive JT/JA. COR doesn't have any offensive JT/JA except rolls.



They don't spend time to double up when they use offensive JA as well.




Edited, Aug 31st 2011 12:34am by Afania
#17 Aug 31 2011 at 4:13 AM Rating: Good
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I'd be more inclined to use this on DNC than COR simply because with a 4-hit (eventually) Armageddon build, there's little use for meleeing unless it's for fun.
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#18 Aug 31 2011 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
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Afania wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
I'm not so sure a THF on his own would out-damage a COR with 3 potent rolls.



THF on his own is pretty self-efficient though.

THF also has innate DW(that means you can /WAR for higher dmg and DA and won't lose offhand hit when you do dagger WS) and offensive JT/JA. COR doesn't have any offensive JT/JA except rolls.



They don't spend time to double up when they use offensive JA as well.




Edited, Aug 31st 2011 12:34am by Afania


Except you are not factoring in the extra 10% DW that thief gets as /nin. That more than makes up for 10% DA, and a good portion of berserk as well. You are going from (in my case with Suppa and Raider's Boomerang) a minimum of just under 49% effective haste to ~43%

That 6% effective haste difference makes thf/nin about 11% faster than thf/war without DA. I also melee in 19% TA and 12% DA, so /war's 10% DA is an effective increase in hits of about 5% over thf/nin just factoring DA and not delay difference. Put them both together and thf/nin gets about 4.9-8% more hits over time than thf/war (I rounded DA and TA up on /war because they were over .5, if I round them both down I get the 8%, 4.9% is probably more accurate). /war's Berserk on average gives about 5-8% enhanced damage over time based on mob defense. So for TP phase thf/nin and thf/war are pretty even, with a slight advantage to thf/war imo. WS, thf/war hands down wins in terms of damage due to berserk and DA, DW doesn't enter, HOWEVER, thf/nin gets more WS over time, 5-8% more because the DW doesn't decrease TP gain with my current equipment. All in all, they should be about even.**

**All of this is calculated without outside haste. Once a whm|rdm|etc. enters the picture with haste, things skew much more in thf/nin's favor. Thf/nin's effective haste with whm haste is 60%, thf/war's effective haste with whm haste is 54%

Quote:

Quote:
Meldi wrote:
When you consider that a cor has to spend ~20 seconds per roll on average to get a good buff on the rolls instead of meleeing, there is a good chance that the thf is going to come out at least even. That is 20% of melee time when the cor isn't meleeing. Not to mention if they implement the PR recast at 30 seconds when you have an 11 up.


You know you don't have to actually re-roll every 30 seconds, right? With Nav+2 hands and winning streak merits, once you get a good roll on yourself solo you can leave it there for quite a while. I like to space them out a bit when I start and then just keep XIs on myself. If you're solo you can just re-roll in between mobs while running around anyway, it's not really as if you're losing 20 seconds of pure melee time.

I'm not sure I beat a THF solo, but it's not too far off... If I've been doing something like an elemental magian trial maybe I'll come /DNC and toss up Blitzer's/Tactician's, it does well. If I had a 3rd pure DD roll, I wouldn't be at all surprised to outdo a THF.



That is true. I wasn't trying to imply that at all. Also true with AF3 hands and winning streak, they would lessen the percentage of time that you are rolling instead of meleeing. However, whether you do your rolls one after another or you space them out, the principle is the same. You are going to take anywhere from 0 seconds to 45 seconds to get either your desired result or a bust. On average it is going to be ~15 seconds. Instant lucky numbers will be balanced out by those times you roll 10x 1. As for the other part, sure if you are both only meleeing when you already have your rolls up, a fully buffed 3 roll cor can beat a solo thf. But the whole running between mobs thing? What is the thf supposed to do when he beats you to the new mob, wait for you to engage? The time it takes you to roll should be a factor no matter where you do it (Mid fight or between mobs, because it limits your movement and delays your ability to fight).

Edit: bust not buff

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 10:31am by Meldi
#19 Aug 31 2011 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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You should be macroing in visible gear when you roll anyway (I use Nav+2 hands, Commodore hat, PR recast Desultor Tassets, appropriate Navarch pieces for their roll), so you'll be blinking out anyway and it shouldn't limit your movement. I added an intentional visibile gear swap on double-up too specifically to blink and allow me to keep running instead of getting the animation. So yeah, you can roll and run with no downtime.

As for this talk of 0-45 seconds to get your desired roll... so what, you can still melee the whole time while you're rolling. I get that there is SOME JA lag that affects your attack speed, but it's not as if you're unable to auto-attack and roll at the same time. People acting like a COR is useless from initial roll until the final result of double-ups are simply not correct.

If you're solo (or in a DD party buffing other melees), you can simply use PR while meleeing just like any other job would use their JAs during auto-attack. When solo, I personally just put up a couple rolls and redo them when they wear, or maybe cycle three rolls. Each one lasts me for 6:36 with 3/5 Winning Streak and Nav+2 hands, so that's not all that much time lost to JA lag. Honestly, I actually use more JAs while meleeing when I'm on PUP (maneuvers, which don't last for 6+ minutes each) or DNC (so many constantly used JAs).

Meldi wrote:
those times you roll 10x 1

Come on now, you're going overboard with exaggeration. That's not even possible with the double-up timer, rolls are only eligible for double-up for 45 seconds and the double-up timer is 8sec. Not that I've even ever rolled 1 six times in a row on a single buff in all my years of COR.

Meldi wrote:
Except you are not factoring in the extra 10% DW that thief gets as /nin. That more than makes up for 10% DA, and a good portion of berserk as well. You are going from (in my case with Suppa and Raider's Boomerang) a minimum of just under 49% effective haste to ~43%


If you're going to say that, in fairness a COR/NIN and THF/NIN have the same DW tier. PLUS a COR could use Blitzer's Roll for another 10-15% delay reduction (assuming AF3 hat and the conservative strategy of staying on rolls of 4, 7, 8, 10, 11). I personally like Blitzer's/Tactician's when I'm doing some random trash mobs on COR.

Again, I'm not saying COR necessarily beats THF offensively - THF having access to some better offensive gear and better traits (Triple Attack especially) is a big deal. But COR isn't as worthless with a dagger as one might infer from some of the comments here, particularly on "trash mobs" - which is really most anything other than high level Abyssea NMs and Voidwatch these days. And rolls are hardly an afterthought, even if you're talking a solo COR. Add more players to the party to also benefit from the buffs (this even includes calling your NPC!), and the total DD generated goes up even more.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 7:30pm by Anza
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#20 Aug 31 2011 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
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I was referring to the poster who said switch thf/nin to thf/war for more damage on the last.

As for the others, yes, I was exagerating at the 10x 1, I have rolled 5x 1 with a 2 for whatever one skipped lucky a number of times. I have rolled 5x 1s to get a lucky 5 quite a few times too. So it does happen that you use the whole timer for doubling up.

When it comes down to it, I think we are on the same page. I don't see the stuff I was originally responding too. I think it was in the post that you edited, but the basic gist of it was that a fully buffed cor with 3 rolls would out damage a thf. I was merely pointing out that it takes time to get a cor fully buffed, and it takes time to keep a cor fully buffed. That time has to be factored. You can't just say, well I have to roll now, mob dead and running for 20 seconds so I can put rolls up.
#21 Aug 31 2011 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
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If that "deal severe damage" is truly awesome, it may actually replace multi-hit weapon though


Currently an augmented yataghan (8D +6critDam) + Twilight should be any facsimile of (dagger) + joy or M.kris.

I'm going to theorize that "Severve damage" probably adds another +1 to cratio on a certain percent of hits that have crit'ed.

Edited, Sep 1st 2011 6:43am by doctorugh
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#22 Sep 01 2011 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Meldi wrote:

Except you are not factoring in the extra 10% DW that thief gets as /nin. That more than makes up for 10% DA, and a good portion of berserk as well. You are going from (in my case with Suppa and Raider's Boomerang) a minimum of just under 49% effective haste to ~43%

That 6% effective haste difference makes thf/nin about 11% faster than thf/war without DA. I also melee in 19% TA and 12% DA, so /war's 10% DA is an effective increase in hits of about 5% over thf/nin just factoring DA and not delay difference. Put them both together and thf/nin gets about 4.9-8% more hits over time than thf/war (I rounded DA and TA up on /war because they were over .5, if I round them both down I get the 8%, 4.9% is probably more accurate). /war's Berserk on average gives about 5-8% enhanced damage over time based on mob defense. So for TP phase thf/nin and thf/war are pretty even, with a slight advantage to thf/war imo. WS, thf/war hands down wins in terms of damage due to berserk and DA, DW doesn't enter, HOWEVER, thf/nin gets more WS over time, 5-8% more because the DW doesn't decrease TP gain with my current equipment. All in all, they should be about even.**

**All of this is calculated without outside haste. Once a whm|rdm|etc. enters the picture with haste, things skew much more in thf/nin's favor. Thf/nin's effective haste with whm haste is 60%, thf/war's effective haste with whm haste is 54%


Edited, Aug 31st 2011 10:31am by Meldi



If you have a BRD in pt and use double march and cap attack delay, wouldn't /WAR beat the hell out of /NIN?

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 1:46am by Afania
#23 Sep 02 2011 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
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No, although, I think I greatly understated(miscalculated) the potency of berserk, so that may affect the outcome. More haste favors /nin, not /war. On thf, with haste + 2x march, /nin effective haste is ~79%, /war effective haste is ~75%, so delay isn't capped. That makes /nin 19% faster than /war.
#24 Sep 02 2011 at 7:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Meldi wrote:
No, although, I think I greatly understated(miscalculated) the potency of berserk, so that may affect the outcome. More haste favors /nin, not /war. On thf, with haste + 2x march, /nin effective haste is ~79%, /war effective haste is ~75%, so delay isn't capped. That makes /nin 19% faster than /war.



Gear=25% + DWII from Job trait=15% + Haste=15% + March=20%~30% + suppa 5%

Wouldn't that put attack delay to 80% cap already, making higher tier DW useless except getting less TP?

Edit: I don't have BRD, so I'm not 100% sure if march can go to 30%. But once a friend of mine with BRD leveled told me BRD march can go to 30%, so I'll just believe XD

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 9:48am by Afania

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 9:52am by Afania
#25 Sep 02 2011 at 10:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Magic Haste cap is 43.75%, DW delay reduction and and haste delay reduction are calculated separately, that is why I say effective haste.

Brd 2x march is generally about 20-21% I think, with soul voice it is 30. Don't quote me on that.

Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 11:13am by Meldi
#26 Sep 02 2011 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Meldi wrote:
No, although, I think I greatly understated(miscalculated) the potency of berserk, so that may affect the outcome. More haste favors /nin, not /war. On thf, with haste + 2x march, /nin effective haste is ~79%, /war effective haste is ~75%, so delay isn't capped. That makes /nin 19% faster than /war.


Yes but less TP on those hits, making it take longer to WS.

Beserk gives 25% attack 60% of the time (effectively I'm going to say 15% more damage, although I'm not considering cratio which pushed that number up or crit% which pushes that number down).

War get Attack bonus +10

War gets 10% DA (essentially 10% more overall damage, of course it has some diminishing returns, but does add to WS as well)

In the end I would guess /war would edge it out; but /nin utility makes me like /nin for COR more.
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#27 Sep 03 2011 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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doctorugh wrote:
Meldi wrote:
No, although, I think I greatly understated(miscalculated) the potency of berserk, so that may affect the outcome. More haste favors /nin, not /war. On thf, with haste + 2x march, /nin effective haste is ~79%, /war effective haste is ~75%, so delay isn't capped. That makes /nin 19% faster than /war.


Yes but less TP on those hits, making it take longer to WS.


Not with daggers you don't. That is the whole point.

doctorugh wrote:

Beserk gives 25% attack 60% of the time (effectively I'm going to say 15% more damage, although I'm not considering cratio which pushed that number up or crit% which pushes that number down).

War get Attack bonus +10


Here is where my stuff kind of falls apart. I have been crunching some numbers and it is looking like berserk represents a much more significant bonus that I initially claimed. Its looking like accross all defs and level differences, berserk represents about a 30% increase in base damage. This seems to be holding true for low def, high def, even match to IT+++. With that much bonus, /war wins for thf probably by a significant bit. On cor however, since you lose dual wield, it favors /nin.

doctorugh wrote:

War gets 10% DA (essentially 10% more overall damage, of course it has some diminishing returns, but does add to WS as well)


What are you TPing in as a cor? I TP in Brutal, Twilight Belt, Orthus back (Can't remember the name), Epona's Ring. That is already a base of 13%, plus 3% triple attack, the overall damage increase from 10% DA on /war is going to come out to about 6-7% due to those factors. On my thief it is just under 5% because I start from 19% TA.

In terms of melee damage, /nin will beat /war on cor by a very large margin. Its only close or favors /war on thf because you don't lose DW when you switch to /war on thf.
#28 Sep 03 2011 at 3:01 PM Rating: Default
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Meldi wrote:
doctorugh wrote:
Meldi wrote:
No, although, I think I greatly understated(miscalculated) the potency of berserk, so that may affect the outcome. More haste favors /nin, not /war. On thf, with haste + 2x march, /nin effective haste is ~79%, /war effective haste is ~75%, so delay isn't capped. That makes /nin 19% faster than /war.


Yes but less TP on those hits, making it take longer to WS.


Not with daggers you don't. That is the whole point.


Maybe we are miscommunicating, but the way I'm understanding your post is that you believe that a dagger with /war and DW daggers on /nin, each hit give the same amount of TP. Additionally I'm getting the impression that you think haste and dual wield are calculated together, when in fact its a seperate calculation. IE 50% haste on /WAR will benefit /NIN (with 30DW) exactly the same.

Quote:
What are you TPing in as a cor? I TP in Brutal, Twilight Belt, Orthus back (Can't remember the name), Epona's Ring. That is already a base of 13%, plus 3% triple attack, the overall damage increase from 10% DA on /war is going to come out to about 6-7% due to those factors. On my thief it is just under 5% because I start from 19% TA.


So your interval for attack with DA with 3% TA and 13% DA is 1.1861

Add DA 10% and it becomes 1.2831

1.2831/1.1861 = 8.18%

Additionally it factors in on your WS. Lets assume you drop twilight belt during WS (11 DA, 3 TA)
The fTP (when factoring avg number of hits) moves from 6.3334 to 6.5274/

6.5274/6.3334 = 3.1% more WS damage. Now saying that 50% of your total melee damage is WS then thats an addtional 1.55%

So in this senario (8.18+1.55) you have 9.73% more damage.

Initially I didnt feel like doing the math, inheirantly knowing this was the case, but there you go.

Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 4:20pm by doctorugh
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