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Quick Draw & AGI SetupFollow

#1 Mar 03 2011 at 8:36 AM Rating: Good
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Wildfire is just around the corner for me and i'd like to have my set evaluated.

Main: Vulcan's Staff
Sub: Fire Grip
Ranged: Armageddon
Ammo: Oberon's Bullet (Steel for TP)
Head: Navarch Tricorne+1
Body: Loki's Kaftan
Hands: Schutzen Mittens
Legs: Denali Kecks
Feet: Navarch Bottes+2
Back: Forban Cape
Waist: Aqualine Belt
Neck: Artemis' Medal/Navarch Choker
Earring: Hecates Earring
Earring: Moldavite Earring
Ring: Breeze Ring
Ring: Solemn Ring

Navarch Culottes+2 are available if those are better than Denali Kecks.
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Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
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#2 Mar 03 2011 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Just a quick note, the bullet you use with wildfire doesn t matter for a magic ws, so you could ws in bronze bullets if you want and have the same dmg as oberon, but for way cheaper.

you setup seems quite nice, maybe try and get those augmented MAB demon rings from abyssea taghrogi(spelling) Canyon.

For legs i use AF3 +2, but its only because i don t have denali, i usually try to stack MAB first and then AGI for slots when MAB isn t available.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 9:51am by AshMulder
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#3 Mar 03 2011 at 8:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Breezesoul or what ever the +7 AGI rings are called is a small upgrade. Of course a Novio over Moldavite, but who does sea anymore?

And don't waste Oberon's on Wildfire. It won't change your damage.

And in the end its the Atma that make Wildfire such a beast. Lone wolf, smoldering sky and Ultimate for bigger numbers. Smoldering sky, Ultimate and Sea Daughter for more WS.
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#4 Mar 03 2011 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Oberon's is there for Quick Draw more than anything, i couldn't find any singles on the Auction House so i had to get some the hard way.

Almost forgot about the MaB rings in Tahrongi, we're moving to Chloris/Glavoid for Dagger/Hand-to-Hand after i get Lv85 Armageddon so i might pickup some there.
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Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Invictus -- William Ernest Henley
#5 Mar 03 2011 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Ohhh Chloris you have my deepest condoleances.
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#6 Mar 03 2011 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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I've heard some really nightmarish stories about Chloris but from the few fights i've seen he does not seem that bad.
Am i missing something? I'm guessing it something about the requirements to spawn him?
____________________________
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Invictus -- William Ernest Henley
#7 Mar 03 2011 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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Hey guys. I am about to get wildfire also but for rng but have a couple gear questions about agi vs mab gear. Mostly just a few slots I'm not sure which way to go.

Uggy pendant vs 6 agi arctiers
Denali vs 10 Agi ambushers hose
Aqualine belt vs 7agi woe belt
8agi hat vs some anwig setup (agi4 ws dam+2%/mab2/mag crit rate +10%)

What would you guys reccomend?
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#8 Mar 03 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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My QD Set:

Full AF3+2

Forban Cape
Aquiline belt
Blobnag Ring
Auster's Ring
Oberon's Bullet
Moldavite Earring
Novio Earring

There is debate on whether Full Af3+2 is worth equipping for a chance of QD triple procing. The chance is about 10-12% and when it kicks in, it really kicks in. 3K+ on NM's. Lol. If you swap in possibly better pieces of gear instead of Af3 the #'s will be quite minor. If you don't have the entire set, wearing Schutzen Mittens, Denali Body, Denali Legs and Loki's Kaftan (or any other AGI+ piece) are good alternatives. If you have Armageddon TP isn't an issue, either are resists. A few QD's mixed in with a few shots combined with Triple Shot during Aftermath and you'll be dripping TP.

The only thing i really want to add are MaB rings. I could swap in Uggy Pendant, but swapping in gear for it to trigger is a pain.
#9 Mar 03 2011 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Matt demon rings are a lie.

Seen over a 100 rings with no matt.

Also question, for exp wouldnt two matt atmas and apoc be better for tp generation. Shooting just seems so slow to me when compared to meleeing.
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#10 Mar 03 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Default
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Tatham wrote:
Wildfire is just around the corner for me and i'd like to have my set evaluated.

Main: Vulcan's Staff
Sub: Fire Grip
Ranged: Armageddon
Ammo: Oberon's Bullet (Steel for TP)
Head: Navarch Tricorne+1
Body: Loki's Kaftan
Hands: Schutzen Mittens
Legs: Denali Kecks
Feet: Navarch Bottes+2
Back: Forban Cape
Waist: Aqualine Belt
Neck: Artemis' Medal/Navarch Choker
Earring: Hecates Earring
Earring: Moldavite Earring
Ring: Breeze Ring
Ring: Solemn Ring

Navarch Culottes+2 are available if those are better than Denali Kecks.


Besides higher AGI and MAB upgrades like 7 AGI ring, +2 head or Novio:

I think Ambusher's hose(10 AGI) is the best if you're not relying on AF3+2 STP to maintain your X-hit after WS. Also I think 8 AGI>3 MAB plus you got STP on it.

Uggy pendant for neck, it's not THAT hard to get rid of MP ._. Don't know why every COR I run into use Artemis' Medal or AF3 neck :/

Also Reaver Grip +1 if you want higher WF dmg, Rose strap if you want to keep X-hit. Fire grip hardly help anything except resist rate. But you can get lower resist from Reaver Grip+1 already.




MK187 wrote:
My QD Set:

Full AF3+2

Forban Cape
Aquiline belt
Blobnag Ring
Auster's Ring
Oberon's Bullet
Moldavite Earring
Novio Earring

There is debate on whether Full Af3+2 is worth equipping for a chance of QD triple procing. The chance is about 10-12% and when it kicks in, it really kicks in. 3K+ on NM's. Lol. If you swap in possibly better pieces of gear instead of Af3 the #'s will be quite minor. If you don't have the entire set, wearing Schutzen Mittens, Denali Body, Denali Legs and Loki's Kaftan (or any other AGI+ piece) are good alternatives. If you have Armageddon TP isn't an issue, either are resists. A few QD's mixed in with a few shots combined with Triple Shot during Aftermath and you'll be dripping TP.

The only thing i really want to add are MaB rings. I could swap in Uggy Pendant, but swapping in gear for it to trigger is a pain.


Hmmm I'd say ACP body with QD recast- and MAB is way better option than Loki, since AGI doesn't add dmg but ACP body not just add dmg, but also gives you more QD with lower recast-. Also I'm still not sure if QD in full set is worth it. ACP body gives -5 recast, it should be better option than +2 body over time no? Schutzen Mittens gives more TP, since QD is a good way gain TP it's too hard to give up too~ I only QD in feet+legs +2, not sure if head+2 is better than AF1+1 for QD~


I'd say if you don't have MAB rings, Rajas+Hoard ring is a very good option for QD. With AF3+2 legs/Rose strap and Schutzen Mittens, that's 22 TP you'll get every QD and without gimping your QD dmg.







Alobont wrote:
Matt demon rings are a lie.

Seen over a 100 rings with no matt.

Also question, for exp wouldnt two matt atmas and apoc be better for tp generation. Shooting just seems so slow to me when compared to meleeing.


There's a reason why RNG sucked in Abyssea :x

Shooting is only good if you REALLY need to avoid NM AOE or if you have WF(or if you focus on Leaden salute atma setup), so you can get TP with a fire or dark staff(HQ) equipped.

Those elemental staff adds quite a lot of dmg, especially when they stack with atma direct dmg+% and dmg+20% after QD with AF3+2 feet. If you do WF with a melee weapon, you're gonna see a huge WS/QD dmg drop. Regain roll/atma and WoTG earring with regain augment are very good to keep your WS speed up. 45 sec recast QD and some STP gear for QD set also helps.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 2:10pm by Afania
#11 Mar 03 2011 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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going back to chloris its not the nm thats nightmarish, its getting the KI's for said nm, that will make you wanna kill yourself.

and going back to augmented demon ring, although they suck to get(i know im 0/1million on mab augments) our ls rng got 2 rings +2mab on it, so its all about luck and randomness once more...
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#12 Mar 03 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I love how leople are just rating me down for nothing lol.

Anyway i know for NMs im going to want fire staff and such, but im curious about exp. Is a more melee geared setup better for producing tp then haveing to rely on regain?

Basically i guess i wanna know is the pay off for doing lesser ws dmg and gaining back dot better then gearing strictly for ws and doing fewer but larger ws.

Atma combos im debating are RR apoc smoulder vs sea daughter smouldering and another matt.
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#13 Mar 03 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Also Reaver Grip +1 if you want higher WF dmg, Rose strap if you want to keep X-hit. Fire grip hardly help anything except resist rate. But you can get lower resist from Reaver Grip+1 already.


Do we know that the fire magic acc bonus from fire grip is less than the resist boost from 2 AGI. I don't think the MACC/AGI equation is remotely solved for QD or WF/LS. But AGI will boos the damage of WF for sure but probably to an irrelevant degree in the case of Reaver's +1.
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#14 Mar 03 2011 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
Also Reaver Grip +1 if you want higher WF dmg, Rose strap if you want to keep X-hit. Fire grip hardly help anything except resist rate. But you can get lower resist from Reaver Grip+1 already.


Do we know that the fire magic acc bonus from fire grip is less than the resist boost from 2 AGI. I don't think the MACC/AGI equation is remotely solved for QD or WF/LS. But AGI will boos the damage of WF for sure but probably to an irrelevant degree in the case of Reaver's +1.



Well AGI is mainly for more dmg, unless your WS really got resist every time AGI should still be a better option IMO. Fire acc on the other hand is more of a situational swap.

Alobont wrote:
I love how leople are just rating me down for nothing lol.

Anyway i know for NMs im going to want fire staff and such, but im curious about exp. Is a more melee geared setup better for producing tp then haveing to rely on regain?

Basically i guess i wanna know is the pay off for doing lesser ws dmg and gaining back dot better then gearing strictly for ws and doing fewer but larger ws.

Atma combos im debating are RR apoc smoulder vs sea daughter smouldering and another matt.




I don't know what weapon you melee with, Mkris or Joy. But I tested with Joy in EXP pt and WS frenquency isn't that much higher. Mostly because there are wait times in EXP pt that you're not fighting. When ppl pulling the mob, or running back to Dominion NPC, or when you do DD rolls for other DDs, engage/disengage, that's the time you're not fighting and not getting TP via melee. So ranged attack setup kinda "catch up" when you're not engaged and still getting TP through regain and getting QD recast time back.

Each ranged attack and QD can also generate like 20~25 TP depending on your sub and STP gear. Also regain roll with AF3+2 body has average 3 TP/tic even with average numbers. So you certainly can get TP faster than you expected if you're doing EXP and spending time running around + engage/disengage. Mkris should TP faster, but I'm not sure if it's fast enough to make up all the WS dmg lose.

Also melee weapon dmg sucked a lot with fire attack/MAB atma setup anyways.

On NM it's very hard to compete with NIN or MNK who full time engage the mob though. Not like COR in melee mode can attack as fast as NIN MNK anyways.
#15 Mar 03 2011 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Afania wrote:
Dartagnann wrote:
Quote:
Also Reaver Grip +1 if you want higher WF dmg, Rose strap if you want to keep X-hit. Fire grip hardly help anything except resist rate. But you can get lower resist from Reaver Grip+1 already.


Do we know that the fire magic acc bonus from fire grip is less than the resist boost from 2 AGI. I don't think the MACC/AGI equation is remotely solved for QD or WF/LS. But AGI will boos the damage of WF for sure but probably to an irrelevant degree in the case of Reaver's +1.



Well AGI is mainly for more dmg, unless your WS really got resist every time AGI should still be a better option IMO. Fire acc on the other hand is more of a situational swap.

Alobont wrote:
I love how leople are just rating me down for nothing lol.

Anyway i know for NMs im going to want fire staff and such, but im curious about exp. Is a more melee geared setup better for producing tp then haveing to rely on regain?

Basically i guess i wanna know is the pay off for doing lesser ws dmg and gaining back dot better then gearing strictly for ws and doing fewer but larger ws.

Atma combos im debating are RR apoc smoulder vs sea daughter smouldering and another matt.




I don't know what weapon you melee with, Mkris or Joy. But I tested with Joy in EXP pt and WS frenquency isn't that much higher. Mostly because there are wait times in EXP pt that you're not fighting. When ppl pulling the mob, or running back to Dominion NPC, or when you do DD rolls for other DDs, engage/disengage, that's the time you're not fighting and not getting TP via melee. So ranged attack setup kinda "catch up" when you're not engaged and still getting TP through regain and getting QD recast time back.

Each ranged attack and QD can also generate like 20~25 TP depending on your sub and STP gear. Also regain roll with AF3+2 body has average 3 TP/tic even with average numbers. So you certainly can get TP faster than you expected if you're doing EXP and spending time running around + engage/disengage. Mkris should TP faster, but I'm not sure if it's fast enough to make up all the WS dmg lose.

Also melee weapon dmg sucked a lot with fire attack/MAB atma setup anyways.

On NM it's very hard to compete with NIN or MNK who full time engage the mob though. Not like COR in melee mode can attack as fast as NIN MNK anyways.


I can attack the same amount as NIN or MNKs with propper DD setups and multi hit weapon. What are average numbers of wildfire with only smouldering?
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#16 Mar 04 2011 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
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Alobont wrote:
[

I can attack the same amount as NIN or MNKs with propper DD setups and multi hit weapon. What are average numbers of wildfire with only smouldering?


With a Vulcan's staff or with a melee weapon?

My BLU friend has 24% haste and OA2~4 magian weapon, and never attack as fast as NIN and MNK with proper DD setup. The DA from gears/atma/WAR sub stack together somehow made none multi-hit weapon "catch up" to multi-hit weapon in terms of attack speed.


#17 Mar 04 2011 at 8:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Afania wrote:
Alobont wrote:
[

I can attack the same amount as NIN or MNKs with propper DD setups and multi hit weapon. What are average numbers of wildfire with only smouldering?


With a Vulcan's staff or with a melee weapon?

My BLU friend has 24% haste and OA2~4 magian weapon, and never attack as fast as NIN and MNK with proper DD setup. The DA from gears/atma/WAR sub stack together somehow made none multi-hit weapon "catch up" to multi-hit weapon in terms of attack speed.


With a melee weapon.

If they are catching up theres some wrong because a multi attack weapon with same atmas will produce more tp. Only people who out tp me on COR are thfs, some sams, and dancers and drgs. I generally am ahead or even with other dds.
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#18 Mar 04 2011 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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Even if you do have as much haste as nin/mnk/thf/dnc, they just have faster weapons (martial arts and DW+very low delay daggers/katanas). They get below 180 delay which means they get TP faster because of the way TP scales with delay. The farther under 180 delay (per hand) you get, the more TP over time you will get.

There is also some truth to DA/TA atmas/gear closing the gap between multi hit weapons and single hit weapons. Just like a ridil/joy war back in the day should never merit DA. The multi hits on weapons (Joy/Ridil/Mkris/Soboro/Magians etc) is mutually exclusive from DA or TA traits/gear/atmas. So if you have a 50% DA weapon and add 10% DA in gear, the boost is cut in half to 5% because you can only proc a DA from gear/atma/traits on a hit that you single atk from your weapon.

If you have a 50% DA weapon and you add 50% more DA from gear/atmas/traits you will get the equivalent of 75% DA. If you have another weapon and add 50% DA gear/atma/trait you get 50% DA. Over 100 swings, the 50% DA weapon will atk 175 times. The normal weapon would atk 150 times. 175/150=16.7%. The weapon with a base 50% DA only attacks 16.7% more than one with ZERO DA. This is whats happening in abyssea now.

Combine that with the point that most Occ atk 2-X time weapons are rather slow/low damage and you can see why a fast, high DPS weapon in the hands of a Dual wielder/martial arts traits speeding them up will do FAR more DPS and gets even FASTER tp if their per-hand delay is under 180, and its not small wonder that a great Nin/Thf/Dnc/Mnk can tear stuff up the way they do in abyssea.

A job like Cor just wont keep up with that kind of TP exclusively from melee, and their actual melee damage will be pretty weak to claim it is 'making up' for anything.
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#19 Mar 04 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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Alobont wrote:
Afania wrote:
Alobont wrote:
[

I can attack the same amount as NIN or MNKs with propper DD setups and multi hit weapon. What are average numbers of wildfire with only smouldering?


With a Vulcan's staff or with a melee weapon?

My BLU friend has 24% haste and OA2~4 magian weapon, and never attack as fast as NIN and MNK with proper DD setup. The DA from gears/atma/WAR sub stack together somehow made none multi-hit weapon "catch up" to multi-hit weapon in terms of attack speed.


With a melee weapon.

If they are catching up theres some wrong because a multi attack weapon with same atmas will produce more tp. Only people who out tp me on COR are thfs, some sams, and dancers and drgs. I generally am ahead or even with other dds.



Never try to WF with only one fire attack atma before, I'll try to test it next time when I get on and have time. I'm pretty curious about optimal ways to TP and atma setup myself anyways.


Personally I haven't got a chance to pt with any THF or DNC(including DNC with Saber dance up) that attacks faster than MNK. So I don't think COR's attack speed can catch up to a MNK~ Especially good TP gears such as Epona's ring/Atheling Mantle/Brutal don't really benefit multi-hit weapons and if COR not subbing WAR that's 10% DA lose also.
#20 Mar 04 2011 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
Even if you do have as much haste as nin/mnk/thf/dnc, they just have faster weapons (martial arts and DW+very low delay daggers/katanas). They get below 180 delay which means they get TP faster because of the way TP scales with delay. The farther under 180 delay (per hand) you get, the more TP over time you will get.

There is also some truth to DA/TA atmas/gear closing the gap between multi hit weapons and single hit weapons. Just like a ridil/joy war back in the day should never merit DA. The multi hits on weapons (Joy/Ridil/Mkris/Soboro/Magians etc) is mutually exclusive from DA or TA traits/gear/atmas. So if you have a 50% DA weapon and add 10% DA in gear, the boost is cut in half to 5% because you can only proc a DA from gear/atma/traits on a hit that you single atk from your weapon.

If you have a 50% DA weapon and you add 50% more DA from gear/atmas/traits you will get the equivalent of 75% DA. If you have another weapon and add 50% DA gear/atma/trait you get 50% DA. Over 100 swings, the 50% DA weapon will atk 175 times. The normal weapon would atk 150 times. 175/150=16.7%. The weapon with a base 50% DA only attacks 16.7% more than one with ZERO DA. This is whats happening in abyssea now.

Combine that with the point that most Occ atk 2-X time weapons are rather slow/low damage and you can see why a fast, high DPS weapon in the hands of a Dual wielder/martial arts traits speeding them up will do FAR more DPS and gets even FASTER tp if their per-hand delay is under 180, and its not small wonder that a great Nin/Thf/Dnc/Mnk can tear stuff up the way they do in abyssea.

A job like Cor just wont keep up with that kind of TP exclusively from melee, and their actual melee damage will be pretty weak to claim it is 'making up' for anything.


I think your over estimating some of the haste numbers. The cap is 80% which includes dual weild and other sources of haste. Cor can hit that 80% just like the other DD jobs, which actually mames the cor -delay roll good as it its effecting your weapon delay and not counting to haste. As far as TP regeneration goes cor gets the same atmas as everyone else + regain roll + quick draw. I think your underestimating quick draws power.

To fully utilize QD you need to fire it at 80% then you can WS right after. I think we just need to parse some stuff and find out. We need to see what atma set up will produce the most damage with DOT and ws combined.
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#21 Mar 04 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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I was only explaining in greater detail WHY multi hits have lost a lot of ground with the new gear/atmas adding obscene amounts of DA/TA. Not that cor cant get TP from melee. But cor is in a catch22. You cant have melee atmas, melee weapons (that are ONLY for TP because the DPS sucks), and have **** wildfires/QD requiring Fire staff+Magic atmas. There just isnt a way to have both at full power and half assing one side or the other just flounders. I was only talking about the reason multi-hits arent what they used to be in my previous post. Considering the actual DPS from cor melee will always be pretty abysmal compared to their WS damage, I cant imagine how focusing on the melee side for gear/atmas will produce more damage than focusing on the WS side (staff/atmas etc) since there really is no equivalent to a good Joy build at lv 90 as their was at 75.
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#22 Mar 05 2011 at 2:49 AM Rating: Good
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Alobont wrote:


I can attack the same amount as NIN or MNKs with propper DD setups and multi hit weapon. What are average numbers of wildfire with only smouldering?




Ok did some very quick test after I got home, I tested with a Vulcan's staff and a Warp Cudgel(forgot my sword in MH XDDD)


Here is the result:

Subjob is RDM(MABII)

WS set:
Vulcan't staff(or Warp Cudgel)/Rose strap/Armageddon/Bronze bullet
Navarch's Tricorne +2/Uggalepih pendant(latent effect on)/Moldavite/Hecate's
Loki's Kaftan/Schutzen mittens/Breeze ring/Solemn ring
Forban cape/Aquiline belt/Navarch's culottes +2/Navarch's bottes +2

With cruor buffs on AGI was 86 + 129
Atma was Lone wolf and Sea Daughter. I don't have Smoldering sky yet, but both Smoldering sky and Lone wolf are fire attack: Major, so they should be the same...
Lucky No.5 Wizard's roll(I land on No.5 the entire time) and regain roll.
Didn't use any temp items


Mob was Bluffalo in Abyssea Uleguerand near CF 4 and 5

WS with Vulcan's staff all after fire shot dmg+20%
3253
3803
3169

WS with Warp Cudgel after fire shot
3308
2757
3483

Then I go added Atma of Ultimate
(Lone wolf/Ultimate/sea daughter)

With Vulcan's staff
5264
4386(This one I waited too long after fire shot, so it didn't have dmg+20% effect. Or else it should be 5262)

With Warp Cudgel
4579
4403(This one I used temp item to recover HP, so Uggalepih pendant latent effect not on.)

It seems that without Ultimate, not just the WS dmg dropped 1k+, but the WS dmg got very unstable. With Ultimate, it's usually the same number 95% of time on none NMs. I guess macc+ superior on Ultimate plays an important role~~

So if you want consistent WS dmg, Ultimate is a must have.










Edited, Mar 5th 2011 3:52am by Afania

Edited, Mar 5th 2011 3:54am by Afania
#23 Mar 05 2011 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Alright with those numbers in mind. I'm thinking for optimal TP gain under a melee weapon, we should be looking at the following.

Atma of the Gnarled Horn: AGIL+50, Crit Hit Rate+20%, Counter+10
This gives a large boost to Wildfires damage and gives us some buff on the melee side as well.

Atma of Ultimate:
Everyone knows this one.


Atma of the Apoc or VV:

Apoc grants 15% triple attack which is always nice for generating TP, but thats about all this one offers for DD purposes. VV on the other hand grants 5% more double attack and a regain effect, along with stronger melee hits.

Afania think you could do some testing with these?

In exp haveing maax damage from your ws isnt that big a deal when mobs only have 10-15k hp. The goal for all of this is to find out what is going to produce the highest damage over time, as I believe that shooting even with regain atmas and such is still behind the TP curve by a little bit then melee weapons.

For NMs and stuff I agree that staff and such should be the way to go.


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#24 Mar 05 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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Alobont wrote:
Alright with those numbers in mind. I'm thinking for optimal TP gain under a melee weapon, we should be looking at the following.

Atma of the Gnarled Horn: AGIL+50, Crit Hit Rate+20%, Counter+10
This gives a large boost to Wildfires damage and gives us some buff on the melee side as well.

Atma of Ultimate:
Everyone knows this one.


Atma of the Apoc or VV:

Apoc grants 15% triple attack which is always nice for generating TP, but thats about all this one offers for DD purposes. VV on the other hand grants 5% more double attack and a regain effect, along with stronger melee hits.

Afania think you could do some testing with these?

In exp haveing maax damage from your ws isnt that big a deal when mobs only have 10-15k hp. The goal for all of this is to find out what is going to produce the highest damage over time, as I believe that shooting even with regain atmas and such is still behind the TP curve by a little bit then melee weapons.

For NMs and stuff I agree that staff and such should be the way to go.




Sure I can try to test it, but I think you're underestimating your TP speed with regain and a staff in EXP pt. Sea daughter is 5 TP/tic, regain roll average is 3TP/tic with AF3 body. That's like 8TP you'll got every 3 sec without engaging the mob. If your puller in EXP pt doesn't pull very fast(95% of EXP pt doesn't), it's more likely to have overflow of TP if you're in EXP pt after all the running to NPC, waiting for mob etc. Also if you're subbing SAM, you get more TP per shot/QD and Meditate for TP too.

At least for me when I joined my friends EXP pt I'm always sitting close to 100% TP whenever I engage the mob, do a QD and TP 100%. Most of the EXP mobs only has 6~7k HP, so after fire shot and WS they pretty much have to pull a new mob. Although WS when mob below 40% HP sure is kinda a waste because half of the dmg are wasted.

I can do WS and give you the WS numbers, but I think you'd have to parse with both melee weapon and a staff to find out which way TP and dmg faster XD.



Edited, Mar 5th 2011 3:36pm by Afania
#25 Mar 05 2011 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Afania wrote:
Alobont wrote:
Alright with those numbers in mind. I'm thinking for optimal TP gain under a melee weapon, we should be looking at the following.

Atma of the Gnarled Horn: AGIL+50, Crit Hit Rate+20%, Counter+10
This gives a large boost to Wildfires damage and gives us some buff on the melee side as well.

Atma of Ultimate:
Everyone knows this one.


Atma of the Apoc or VV:

Apoc grants 15% triple attack which is always nice for generating TP, but thats about all this one offers for DD purposes. VV on the other hand grants 5% more double attack and a regain effect, along with stronger melee hits.

Afania think you could do some testing with these?

In exp haveing maax damage from your ws isnt that big a deal when mobs only have 10-15k hp. The goal for all of this is to find out what is going to produce the highest damage over time, as I believe that shooting even with regain atmas and such is still behind the TP curve by a little bit then melee weapons.

For NMs and stuff I agree that staff and such should be the way to go.




Sure I can try to test it, but I think you're underestimating your TP speed with regain and a staff in EXP pt. Sea daughter is 5 TP/tic, regain roll average is 3TP/tic with AF3 body. That's like 8TP you'll got every 3 sec without engaging the mob. If your puller in EXP pt doesn't pull very fast(95% of EXP pt doesn't), it's more likely to have overflow of TP if you're in EXP pt after all the running to NPC, waiting for mob etc. Also if you're subbing SAM, you get more TP per shot/QD and Meditate for TP too.

At least for me when I joined my friends EXP pt I'm always sitting close to 100% TP whenever I engage the mob, do a QD and TP 100%. Most of the EXP mobs only has 6~7k HP, so after fire shot and WS they pretty much have to pull a new mob. Although WS when mob below 40% HP sure is kinda a waste because half of the dmg are wasted.

I can do WS and give you the WS numbers, but I think you'd have to parse with both melee weapon and a staff to find out which way TP and dmg faster XD.



Edited, Mar 5th 2011 3:36pm by Afania


Yeah im just curious of ws numbers right now, still need 33 more lanterns.
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#26 Mar 05 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Even if you do floor your delay, I can't see it being enough of an increase in TP phase damage and WS rate to offset a 40% reduction in WS damage.

You're also building for Exp like this is the Birds era and you have to do it for more than a few hours at a time. Why Exp on a capped job past the first few batches of merits to cap all categories?

This is the classic FFXI blunder of over-optimizing for trash mobs and 'perfect' (COR, BRD, DNC all in one party, etc) situations. It's why I was never impressed that a piercing job could outdamage my DRK at birds by 10%.

Edited, Mar 5th 2011 4:53pm by Raelix
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#27 Mar 05 2011 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
Even if you do floor your delay, I can't see it being enough of an increase in TP phase damage and WS rate to offset a 40% reduction in WS damage.

You're also building for Exp like this is the Birds era and you have to do it for more than a few hours at a time. Why Exp on a capped job past the first few batches of merits to cap all categories?

This is the classic FFXI blunder of over-optimizing for trash mobs and 'perfect' (COR, BRD, DNC all in one party, etc) situations. It's why I was never impressed that a piercing job could outdamage my DRK at birds by 10%.

Edited, Mar 5th 2011 4:53pm by Raelix


Because we already know how tog ear for max damage on NM's. I could really care less about exp, i dont even exp any more honestly, but I like to know who togear for certain occasions. Sometimes I get in the mood to jsut plow through a bunch of trash mbos and I want to know what the best setup for that is. On top of that, I'd rather not go back to /ra spam unless it truely is superior to melee spam for trash mobs.

Edited, Mar 5th 2011 10:19pm by Alobont
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#28 Mar 06 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Alobont wrote:
I could really care less

ORLY?
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#29 Mar 06 2011 at 8:53 PM Rating: Default
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Raelix wrote:
Alobont wrote:
I could really care less

ORLY?
YARLY

Also who is rating me down, just wanna put a name to the face is all.
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#30 Mar 07 2011 at 3:02 AM Rating: Good
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Alobont wrote:

Yeah im just curious of ws numbers right now, still need 33 more lanterns.



Atma: GH/Ultimate/VV
SJ RDM

AGI and WS set same as above except I used a joytoy this time

No.7 Wizards roll, watersday(don't know if this actually affects WS dmg)


(Without Uggy pendant latent effect)
3884
3884
(With Uggy pendant latent effect)
4052
3856

All after fire shot dmg+20%

#31 Mar 07 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Afania wrote:
Alobont wrote:

Yeah im just curious of ws numbers right now, still need 33 more lanterns.



Atma: GH/Ultimate/VV
SJ RDM

AGI and WS set same as above except I used a joytoy this time

No.7 Wizards roll, watersday(don't know if this actually affects WS dmg)


(Without Uggy pendant latent effect)
3884
3884
(With Uggy pendant latent effect)
4052
3856

All after fire shot dmg+20%



Seems like that will probably be the melee combo to test against vs something like SD,Ultimate,SK. Thank you for the testing Afania.

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#32 Mar 07 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
watersday(don't know if this actually affects WS dmg)


If you're testing anything elemental based, don't do it on corresponding days. Fire Obi/Zodiac Ring do add on bonus damage to Wildfire, so my guess would be Watersday penalty can apply.

I've yet to determine which is overall better, +3% damage (zodiac ring) vs Augmented Demon Ring or Stormsoul Ring.

Those with access to Wildfire, out of curiosity, how often do you melee? I find myself fulltiming Vulcan's Staff rather than using joy/mkris. Also has anyone tested Brulo's atma?
(Atma of the Burning Effigy: STR+ Minor [negligible for wildfire], Fire WS dmg+Major, Gain Full Benefit of Firesday/Weather bonuses.)

Edited, Mar 7th 2011 3:58pm by Wyuli
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#33 Mar 07 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Wyuli wrote:
Quote:
watersday(don't know if this actually affects WS dmg)


If you're testing anything elemental based, don't do it on corresponding days. Fire Obi/Zodiac Ring do add on bonus damage to Wildfire, so my guess would be Watersday penalty can apply.

I've yet to determine which is overall better, +3% damage (zodiac ring) vs Augmented Demon Ring or Stormsoul Ring.

Those with access to Wildfire, out of curiosity, how often do you melee? I find myself fulltiming Vulcan's Staff rather than using joy/mkris. Also has anyone tested Brulo's atma?
(Atma of the Burning Effigy: STR+ Minor [negligible for wildfire], Fire WS dmg+Major, Gain Full Benefit of Firesday/Weather bonuses.)

Edited, Mar 7th 2011 3:58pm by Wyuli


I would assume Burning effigy would only truelly be ebtter with a SCH in the pt.
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#34 Mar 07 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I would assume Burning effigy would only truelly be ebtter with a SCH in the pt.


Not necessarily. Without needing to use Karin Obi due to the Atma to guarantee day bonus, I could use something else like Aquiline Belt for both QD/Wildfire.
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#35 Mar 07 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Wyuli wrote:
Quote:
I would assume Burning effigy would only truelly be ebtter with a SCH in the pt.


Not necessarily. Without needing to use Karin Obi due to the Atma to guarantee day bonus, I could use something else like Aquiline Belt for both QD/Wildfire.


Doesnt the Fire belt beat out aquiline and id assume Karin Obi?
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#36 Mar 07 2011 at 6:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Doesnt the Fire belt beat out aquiline and id assume Karin Obi?


I'm going to assume you're not referring to this Fire Belt, and you're meaning Flame Belt instead.

Next, I'm going to assume you didn't mean Flame Belt, because Wildfire has Gravitation/Darkness for skillchain properties, which means Flame Belt is irrelevant (unless you really want that Conserve TP+7).

Wildfire has a fTP mod of 5.5. Elemental Gorgets/Belts add 0.1 to fTP. According to Kirschy on BG, this is Wildfire's formula:

[floor(5.5 * (Lv + 2 + floor(0.85 * floor(AGI * .6))))] + [2 * (Your AGI-Enemy INT)]

Looking at Leaden Salute/Trueflight's formulas:
( fTP * ( 75 + 2 + (0.83 * (AGI * 0.3)))) + 2 * ( AGI - EnemyAGI )

Looking at Leaden's 75+2 vs Wildfire's Lv+2. Going to assume Leaden's 75+2 is Lv+2, due to the time Leaden Salute was released.

Let's assume our AGI = 150. EnemyINT = 75. Character Lv.90. I think floor means to round down?

[floor(5.5 * (92 + floor(0.85 * floor(150 * .6))))] + [2 * (150 - 75)]
[floor(5.5 * (92 + floor(0.85 * 90)))] + [2 * 75]
[floor(5.5 * (92 + floor76.5))] + 150
[floor(5.5 * 168)] + 150
924 + 150 = 1074

Now, let's add in Soil or Shadow Belt, as I have no clue if Snow/Aqua belts work.

[floor(5.6 * (92 + floor(0.85 * floor(150 * .6))))] + [2 * (150 - 75)]
[floor(5.6 * (92 + floor(0.85 * 90)))] + [2 * 75]
[floor(5.6 * (92 + floor76.5))] + 150
[floor(5.6 * 168)] + 150
940 + 150 = 1090

Difference of 16 points of damage. Let's now change to Aquiline Belt. MAB is calculated as another term I believe. MAB+3 being 1.03

( [floor(5.5 * (92 + floor(0.85 * floor(150 * .6))))] + [2 * (150 - 75)] ) * 1.03
( [floor(5.5 * (92 + floor(0.85 * 90)))] + [2 * 75] ) * 1.03
( [floor(5.5 * (92 + floor76.5))] + 150 ) * 1.03
( [floor(5.5 * 168)] + 150 ) * 1.03
( 924 + 150 ) * 1.03 = 1106

If I'm wrong, please correct me. I'd test this vs lv0 rabbits but maintenance isn't quite over yet.
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#37 Mar 07 2011 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Wyuli wrote:
Quote:
Doesnt the Fire belt beat out aquiline and id assume Karin Obi?


I'm going to assume you're not referring to this Fire Belt, and you're meaning Flame Belt instead.

Next, I'm going to assume you didn't mean Flame Belt, because Wildfire has Gravitation/Darkness for skillchain properties, which means Flame Belt is irrelevant (unless you really want that Conserve TP+7).

Wildfire has a fTP mod of 5.5. Elemental Gorgets/Belts add 0.1 to fTP. According to Kirschy on BG, this is Wildfire's formula:

[floor(5.5 * (Lv + 2 + floor(0.85 * floor(AGI * .6))))] + [2 * (Your AGI-Enemy INT)]

Looking at Leaden Salute/Trueflight's formulas:
( fTP * ( 75 + 2 + (0.83 * (AGI * 0.3)))) + 2 * ( AGI - EnemyAGI )

Looking at Leaden's 75+2 vs Wildfire's Lv+2. Going to assume Leaden's 75+2 is Lv+2, due to the time Leaden Salute was released.

Let's assume our AGI = 150. EnemyINT = 75. Character Lv.90. I think floor means to round down?

[floor(5.5 * (92 + floor(0.85 * floor(150 * .6))))] + [2 * (150 - 75)]
[floor(5.5 * (92 + floor(0.85 * 90)))] + [2 * 75]
[floor(5.5 * (92 + floor76.5))] + 150
[floor(5.5 * 168)] + 150
924 + 150 = 1074

Now, let's add in Soil or Shadow Belt, as I have no clue if Snow/Aqua belts work.

[floor(5.6 * (92 + floor(0.85 * floor(150 * .6))))] + [2 * (150 - 75)]
[floor(5.6 * (92 + floor(0.85 * 90)))] + [2 * 75]
[floor(5.6 * (92 + floor76.5))] + 150
[floor(5.6 * 168)] + 150
940 + 150 = 1090

Difference of 16 points of damage. Let's now change to Aquiline Belt. MAB is calculated as another term I believe. MAB+3 being 1.03

( [floor(5.5 * (92 + floor(0.85 * floor(150 * .6))))] + [2 * (150 - 75)] ) * 1.03
( [floor(5.5 * (92 + floor(0.85 * 90)))] + [2 * 75] ) * 1.03
( [floor(5.5 * (92 + floor76.5))] + 150 ) * 1.03
( [floor(5.5 * 168)] + 150 ) * 1.03
( 924 + 150 ) * 1.03 = 1106

If I'm wrong, please correct me. I'd test this vs lv0 rabbits but maintenance isn't quite over yet.


Yeah sorry forgot belts and gorgets went off ws attributes lol.
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#38 Mar 07 2011 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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Wyuli wrote:
Those with access to Wildfire, out of curiosity, how often do you melee? I find myself fulltiming Vulcan's Staff rather than using joy/mkris.


Honestly? Never. SeaDaughter, Tactician's Roll, WotG earring. The ONLY time I would consider melee would be on mobs that have insane magic cut. Losing Vulcan's staff would be a travesty.

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#39 Mar 07 2011 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Ya since i got wildfire i don t melee anymore either, i tried filling all my inventory slots with MAB gear plus the usual Smoldering/ultimate/wolf(or sometimes sea daughter) and use Tacticians and BLM rolls, has been working wonders so far and puts my Caladbolg to shame(i have woe gun, not empy)
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#40 Mar 08 2011 at 6:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Wyuli wrote:
Quote:
watersday(don't know if this actually affects WS dmg)


If you're testing anything elemental based, don't do it on corresponding days. Fire Obi/Zodiac Ring do add on bonus damage to Wildfire, so my guess would be Watersday penalty can apply.

I've yet to determine which is overall better, +3% damage (zodiac ring) vs Augmented Demon Ring or Stormsoul Ring.

Those with access to Wildfire, out of curiosity, how often do you melee? I find myself fulltiming Vulcan's Staff rather than using joy/mkris. Also has anyone tested Brulo's atma?
(Atma of the Burning Effigy: STR+ Minor [negligible for wildfire], Fire WS dmg+Major, Gain Full Benefit of Firesday/Weather bonuses.)

Edited, Mar 7th 2011 3:58pm by Wyuli



In abyssea most of the time with vulcan's staff. The TP speed of Joytoy isn't much faster than vulcan't staff but WS/QD dmg lose is too huge.

In Nyzul I still melee a lot though. Wildfire dmg isn't much better than slug outside...

The only real use for melee in abby is probably just for NM fights that resists WF and you /DNC haste samba **** for MNK and NIN~
Or maybe Aeolion Edge amber light gold chest farm.




Does Zodiac ring affects elemental WS too? I know it affects QD but if it affects WS it'd be great~~

#41 Mar 08 2011 at 11:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
In abyssea most of the time with vulcan's staff. The TP speed of Joytoy isn't much faster than vulcan't staff but WS/QD dmg lose is too huge.

In Nyzul I still melee a lot though. Wildfire dmg isn't much better than slug outside...

The only real use for melee in abby is probably just for NM fights that resists WF and you /DNC haste samba **** for MNK and NIN~
Or maybe Aeolion Edge amber light gold chest farm.

Does Zodiac ring affects elemental WS too? I know it affects QD but if it affects WS it'd be great~~


I went and tested on lv.0 rabbits when I first got my Zodiac Ring, and yes, it does give bonus to Wildfire. Tested with Karin Obi to guarantee day bonus and not wonder if day did proc. No screenshots to prove it, but I can go test it again when Firesday rolls around and I'm online to be there for it.

Sometimes I still go COR/DNC and help stunlock with another NIN/DNC. Works wonders on the three gigas NMs for Briareus, and other slow-starting NMs (Minax Bugard comes to mind).

Does anyone have full AF3+2 set yet? I'm missing hands, want to know if full set bonus is worth losing QD Mirke/Schutzen Mittens (leaning towards no). Still debating over AF3+2 legs vs Denali as well.
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#42 Mar 08 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Full af3 isnt worth it. Proc rate is only about 5%. The only pieces worth useing for QD are really the feet and hands and thats if you dont need thr tp.
Cant use the body since we have acp, cant use hat cause of AF, cant use legs since denali adds agil
Macc and matt. Hands are the only piece really and thats only
If you dont need the tp.

Id assume if your meleeing your gonna want the tp so use the mitts. If
Your standing around back lineing use af3 gloves. Id also assume during a zerg you can swap in pants over denali.
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#43 Mar 08 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Someone needs to do some math and compare the 5-8% chance of QD triple procing vs. wearing Tricorne & Merc. Body. Over time which combination would do more damage.


#44 Mar 08 2011 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
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MK187 wrote:
Someone needs to do some math and compare the 5-8% chance of QD triple procing vs. wearing Tricorne & Merc. Body. Over time which combination would do more damage.




Its been done already. Full af3+2 isnt worth it, jsut wear two pieces and enjoy it when it procs.
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#45 Mar 09 2011 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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Alobont wrote:
Full af3 isnt worth it. Proc rate is only about 5%. The only pieces worth useing for QD are really the feet and hands and thats if you dont need thr tp.
Cant use the body since we have acp, cant use hat cause of AF, cant use legs since denali adds agil
Macc and matt. Hands are the only piece really and thats only
If you dont need the tp.


Why would you wear Navarch's Gant's +2 to Quick Draw in? It adds nothing and there are a few other choices.

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#46 Mar 09 2011 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Need at least two pieces of af3+2 to get set bonus. Hands and feet are the best ones to use.
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#47 Apr 07 2011 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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Alobont wrote:
Need at least two pieces of af3+2 to get set bonus. Hands and feet are the best ones to use.


Slight necro...

Supposing you are wearing Nav+2 feet and wanted another piece for set bonus:

1) Loki/Navarch Gants +2: AGI+11, Store TP+7
2) Navarch Frac+2/Schutzen: AGI+8, MAcc+15, QD TP Bonus

Isn't that a pretty easy choice in favor of #2 even if you DON'T need the TP? M.Acc+15 outweighs AGI+3, right?

Edited, Apr 7th 2011 3:33pm by Anza
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#48 Apr 07 2011 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
Alobont wrote:
Need at least two pieces of af3+2 to get set bonus. Hands and feet are the best ones to use.


Slight necro...

Supposing you are wearing Nav+2 feet and wanted another piece for set bonus:

1) Loki/Navarch Gants +2: AGI+11, Store TP+7
2) Navarch Frac+2/Schutzen: AGI+8, MAcc+15, QD TP Bonus

Isn't that a pretty easy choice in favor of #2 even if you DON'T need the TP? M.Acc+15 outweighs AGI+3, right?

Edited, Apr 7th 2011 3:33pm by Anza


If you dont have ACP body with QD-5 then number 2 is your best bet. I just assume any real cor has that qd-5 augment since it so powerful.

Without Mirke, AF2 body over hands, with mirke and not in a situation where you need the extra tp (ie outside of exp) AF3 hands.

The agil amount is a moot point really. 97% of the time your QD is going to land and be just fine without stacking agil.

Edited, Apr 7th 2011 8:42pm by Alobont
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#49 Apr 08 2011 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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Alobont wrote:
If you dont have ACP body with QD-5 then number 2 is your best bet. I just assume any real cor has that qd-5 augment since it so powerful.

Without Mirke, AF2 body over hands, with mirke and not in a situation where you need the extra tp (ie outside of exp) AF3 hands.

The agil amount is a moot point really. 97% of the time your QD is going to land and be just fine without stacking agil.


Aha... Mirke. Knew I was forgetting something. Agreed that AGI stacking seems pretty redundant.

As a "real PUP", I can't give up Pet MAB/MAcc+7 augment on my Mirke (which I have paired with Acc+10). That being said, I am thinking about redoing it and putting QD-5 alongside the pet nuking augment, since I now have better melee/WS options.

How do you think a Mirke with QD-5 stacks up, if that augment is paired with something completely useless to COR as opposed to the traditional MAB augment?
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#50 Apr 08 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Works just fine. Mine is ratt+10 qd-5, though im planning on redoing it since I have wildfire now.
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#51 Apr 08 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
Alobont wrote:
If you dont have ACP body with QD-5 then number 2 is your best bet. I just assume any real cor has that qd-5 augment since it so powerful.

Without Mirke, AF2 body over hands, with mirke and not in a situation where you need the extra tp (ie outside of exp) AF3 hands.

The agil amount is a moot point really. 97% of the time your QD is going to land and be just fine without stacking agil.


Aha... Mirke. Knew I was forgetting something. Agreed that AGI stacking seems pretty redundant.

As a "real PUP", I can't give up Pet MAB/MAcc+7 augment on my Mirke (which I have paired with Acc+10). That being said, I am thinking about redoing it and putting QD-5 alongside the pet nuking augment, since I now have better melee/WS options.

How do you think a Mirke with QD-5 stacks up, if that augment is paired with something completely useless to COR as opposed to the traditional MAB augment?



You can use STP gears for any AGI slots you're currently using if you feel AGI stacking is redundant.

I'd say MAB augment on Mirke makes very little difference, not like you're going to do 300 more dmg with it, so go ahead if you want second augment for other jobs =)
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