Reminder to 75 COR poseters re: dd corFollow

I never use use exp bands for merit parties. I like being able to get the @#%^ out of Dodge, quick. =P

But I'm trying to explain the point that Milich is trying to explain, that people seem to be missing.

If you take 3 unmerited DDs along the lines of the one I linked earlier, put them in a party with an unmerited RDM, an unmerited BRD/NIN, and an unmerited COR, and slapped Hunter's Roll + Chaos on them, you likely wouldn't ever break 15-18k/hr. I think we've all been in that situation a few times, where 2-5 people in the party don't know what they are doing, and everybody suffers.

A party like that doesn't have to be a sh*tty party, though... even 6 completely unmerited players can get upwards of 30k/hr (edit - well, ok, maybe 23-25k/hr) at bird camp. All it takes is the proper food (Crab Sushi), the proper buffs (2x March, Fighter's - only in this case with 3xSAM/COR/Evoker's, 2x Ballad), the proper debuffs (Dia II + Light Shot - if up, Elegy, Slow), some good positioning by the puller, and gear sets that turn out to not be completely useless (in this case, the SAMs all manage to have a 6 hit build in spite of their apparent lack of funds).

Are you going to find this type of thing in a pick up party? No, probably not... I wouldn't count on finding that many smart players in my own LS, and it has some of the most well informed players I know of in it. But it doesn't mean you shouldn't try for it, or offer suggestions. Even without going heavily into detail, most people will understand when you tell them something like "Well, I've been parsing this fight, and you're dead last, behind the random skillchain damage and Dia II". And yes, I have told bad DDs stuff like that. They typically drop, or go into a fury for the next few mobs using all their JAs to try and pull hate, then die, then drop. You can bet your ass though, if I get stuck in a pick up party with bad players who refuse to listen to reason, I'm not sticking around.

Edited, Jul 12th 2009 9:48am by TybudX

I recommend anyone who does meripo pick-ups should make lists of DD's so over time you hardly ever go wrong.

A simple list of competant DD's in your eyes goes a long way to not ending up with 1 DD (or 2) that makes the whole party suffer. I only started doing this 3-4months back, when i just got fed up of making uber pty's on paper, just become severly dissapointed by certain melee's performances.

This thread has been going on for so long I'm kind of confused what people (particularly Pahn, Carrilei, and RVW) are arguing about. Not here to start any fights just trying to get the gist of what everyone's saying.

Pahn's arguing that due to respawn times and the finite number of mobs at a merit camp there's very little you can do to increase the max xp/hr and cor dd adding to killing speed is helpful but ultimately negligible when paired with competent dds?

Carrilei and RVW are saying that maxing out the damage potential of every party member(cor in particular) adds a significant increase to killing speed and thus xp/hr (the 33k/hr example)?

Just pointing out I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouths so correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just trying to understand what you people have been arguing about for the past couple pages.

Off-topic question: I've been wondering if its worth droping 700-800k on a martial. How much acc does martial gun give to slugshot at 100%tp? 20? 30? more?

LOL boy are you wrong. That is the fallacy of denying the antecedent. While X does cause Y it is not the only thing that can (potentially). Let me look up the ONLY 2 proper simple logical comparison forms and post them. (one of these is modus Tollens, the other is Modus Pollens if my memory serves)

I know 1 is
X ->Y
!Y
therefor not X

The other I believe is
X -> Y
X
Therefore, Y

Yeah, you can confirm the antecedent or deny the consequent, BUT not vise versa. Denying the antecedent and confirming the conquest do not make a statement necessarily true.

No I am not a Philosophy student, I studied History. But I have taken plenty of logic classes and a Philosophy or two.

As to you melee example with a baselines: The person saying no your wrong could think there is no baseline which matters. There are few to no other options that can be taken from that particular statement. But you wrote it to exibit that quality. It still does have more than one possible diagreement. One could be argueing that DD never make a difference in EXP, or that no baseline exists that more DD sloes down exp. If we use the same from and replace the context with another similar argument we can see how many different meanings can come from that disagreement as well.
If the line were to read "DD make a big difference to exp even if a baseline is reached" then disagreement could mean that they don't, or it could be that they think support jobs make a big difference once a baseline is reached, or even that pulling is the main factor. Disagreement does not imply the exact opposite at all. Only a differing opinion.

Lastly, context never matters when fallacious logic was used in the first place. And My example perfectly illistrates the fallacy you are commiting with the statemnt

Hope you are happy about being wrong.

PS. telling me to shut up will never work.


Edited, Jul 12th 2009 5:02pm by LordTrey

MR mice!
MR not!
MR2.
CMEDBD feet.
LIB,
MR mice.

not going to read the rest of your post because i don't care, but no. by any chance do you know how much HP colibri generally have, and how much damage a melee generates with various common buffs? why don't you swing your "i'm-a-reasonable-poster-for-the-people"-peen my way and answer me that.

I also think, the better DD you have the less you should be parsing.

For good COR's - Parsing 20% means theres something wrong with your DD's
For good COR's - Parsing 10% means you melee are good and doing their job well

Lol wow, you just don't ever stop do you? I see you not only capped your ability to be completely condescending but you also merited it. cg! At least you picked up that it was (mostly) about your attitude that I was referring to. You come off as a "i know everything about everything" type who thinks everyone else is beneath him. Are you even a COR? That's a good question. Doesn't say so in your sig but you only have 3 jobs listed and I'm sure you have more than that.

Let's do some math. I can hit a 2k slug and remove about 40% of a colibri's life on my own. So gonna say colibris have 6.5K or so HP on average.

As for how much a melee generates, you know damn well that absolutely depends on the player. I can't even tell you how much a SAM generates because I just saw a SAM parse 15% in a pt i parsed 31.5% in on the same job.

What exactly are you contesting here? Oh wait, you didn't even read it. Nice start. But what I said rings absolutely true. "Oh i soloed Kirin, it's easy.. a retard could solo Kirin" same type of thing. 30k+ parties are not typical. That's a fact. They are possible but not typical. Why do you think some people get all excited about chain 100? Because they don't achieve it all that much, regardless of whether it's hard or easy or not. So, yes the "infinite chains are easy, retards could do it in their sleep" type attitudes pretty much makes you exactly what I said it did. You feel the need to stroke your peen in these forums the same way DDs do in merit pts. You can't even stop yourself lol. You're stroking it right now as you read this =o. Please stop, it's freaking me out :P.

On the occasions you actually do add something worthwhile to the discussion, you are incapable of doing it without being condescending or insulting to whoever it is your replying to/flaming/whatever it is you think you're doing. You'll earn far more respect by dropping the attitude but then I'm assuming you actuall give a damn about respect. Silly me.

I don't throw around the word "elitist" just like you apparently never use the word "princess" lol. I've seen the term used by people on these forums to describe other people and you fit that category more than anyone else I've seen. 1) that's not a compliment lol. Don' get it twisted. 2) I freely admit to only really checking out the COR forums for the most part, occasionally SAM, general blah blah. My 200something posts should tell you I don't spend my life on here like you and your 6K+ posts must. Whoa, 8.6k even.

So if there are people out there who managed to come across as more insulting and I simply don't know about them, I apologize to them for marginalizing their "contributions" to the community lol.

Seriously, on a personal note, do you ever reply to a post without trying to get into a forum-peen/pissing contest with someone? Is that all you do? Cuz it's all I see you do. Anyone else seen this guy do something other than that?

Facts are facts. 30k/icp pts are not typical or just guaranteed because a certain set of jobs show up. The difference between the 75s (on ANY job) who are close to the ceiling of that job and those who aren't is MASSIVE. You clearly must know that. Should 2 really strong DDs be enough to carry a chain? Yes. I've done it with just 2. I've also seen a lot of chains die before 100 for various reasons. If you consider that a pt that can chain 7 can ICP, I find that to be mistaken. To geniunely ICP (lets stick an at least chain 100 stipulation on it), you can't be riding the time limit every time because eventually you'll lose tp, miss a WS, have some other pt steal a bird from your camp, whatever and that'll be that. Someone will get their TP eaten or some poor unfortunate DD will penta thrust at the same moment as a COR slug shots and do about 200 dmg instead of 1k+ and neither one has tp the next fight. I just love how ppl throw around 30k+/hour like it's expected of everyone. Your average player and I'd say even most of the above-average ones aren't doing that. You can argue that they should, certainly, but you can't argue that they are because they just aren't. Not up for debate.

Maybe you are one of those types who refuse to pt with normal ppl. For someone who claims to know so much about the game, I can't believe you could be so out of touch with what a normal merit pt is actually like. If you think 30k/hour just magically falls from the sky, then you're crazy.

I've been in plenty of pts that couldn't dream of 30k and I've been in some that could pull it off. Again, let's claim a good DD COR would represent 15% of dmg in a pt. Assume 30 seconds per kill, seems reasonable enough. OK, take the COR's gun away and you drop to what? 35 seconds a kill? maybe more? Over the course of an hour, that's like 10 minutes gone. At 30 seconds a kill, that's 20 colibris. With COR roll up, that's a lot of xp. 4K+. If repops are not an issue, there's no way losing dmg helps XP gain. No way.

So once again, what are you contesting? The only part of my post you apparently read was where I accused you or playing pocket pool with your f-peen while you spout off about how much everyone else sucks and how unbelievably easy everything in this game is. You don't think that attitude brands you in the minds of other people as one of those types? "In a word, no" Why don't we ask them?

P.S. let me know if you actually got this far in the post. Knowing that you read the whole thing this time would really make my whole day :D.

you write too much. i'm way too bored with this topic to read almost any of it. if i recall, you were saying that "infinite chain is common" was some sort of epeen swinging. it's not. if you're trying hard to craft your wit and if it's at all for my benefit, make it more concise, because otherwise it's going to go to waste. if you've got fans reading all that garbage though, by all means carry on.

If you merit with really pimp DD, theres noway you could hit 20% total dmg. if you did, that means these pimp 2H DD only managed 26%-27% total dmg each. Buffing takes upto 5-15secs per buff too, in the good pty's, a bird will KO in 10-15secs.

I <3 COR, I <3 it a lot, i have the up-most respect for the job, (but only respect about 5% of CORs in game, stupid gimps), but you have to look at it none bias. If you think you can reach 20% in a pty with good War's, Sam's, Mnk's, Drk's, then those DD's are not good. A Well made bird meripo will see them KO within 10-25secs, every 5-6 mins, your spending ~10% of the time buffing (based on three 10second buffs in 5mins)

The DD out put is simply not as meaty either, we can pop off great ws's wit h work. War's, Drk's, Sam's can put out just as good ws dmg, and have DoT that reach's ~40% of their total dmg. MNK's Asurans only account for 10% of their total dmg, their DoT accounts for 90% (strange, but true). A COR simply can't keep up with power house DD's like that. Not the well geared, 'good at their job' DD's anyway.

i dunno, rate up's for all recent posts on thread as it seems someone has ben rating posts down (personal warefare perhaps o.O). Just keep this debate light.

When I read about DD COR, it just makes me think about a COR that slacks off on his buffing duty so he can shoot more.
I know BRD are allowed to slack off in the buff so that they can keep XP chains alive, I hope DD COR don't do that so they can post about big numbers.

That's what I see happen even more so lately..CORs start slacking off on buffing so they can focus on the DD aspect.

Only struggle left is to convince the mage to include you in the Haste cycle.

If they refuse to give you haste, you can always refuse to give them Evoker's, or to leave your Luzaf's off when using Corsair's hehe

Holy sh*t. Lots of mud in here. o_O and no screenshots of the battle damage...anyway.

I only read through the 3rd page and the first page, and i thought the FIRST page was pretty bad with the arguing.

I haven't partied hardcor at 75 yet. I ding'd 75 in a sync party, and only went to 2 merit parties and then stopped to get gear and detonator and more gil to prep for mass merit spam. In the time I leveled from 65~75, I was almost always the main puller aside from 5 or less parties where I had a BRD who was willing to pull instead. Having said that, I have not been confident in which DD sub is the best choice for my gear and merits. I've been trying to figure it out without asking here. I won't ask yet! But now that you know my level of experience in merit parties at 75, let me share two observations and a quote:



Observation#1
You may not want this quote to be true, but I have a prime example to share.
It's not a screenshot, but I can edit or reply within the next 48 hours as I'm sure he'll still be LFP in the normal hours. The same COR for three nights now I have watched him have his flag up for 2-4 hours and not get an invite. I know he's not AFK, because I watch him put the flag up. I watched him move around whitegate. His seacom looks like this:
{Fisherman} {No thanks.}
{Level Sync} {No thanks.}
{White Mage} X

Observation#2
Brd's are invited to buff.
Cor's are also invited to buff.
A majority of the time, a Brd is also asked to pull, however this is not a set-in-stone task every BRD must do.
A majority of the time, a Cor is invited to be a brd replacement, or a compliment.

There is one big difference between us though. The moment we use a weaponskill, even once every 3 mobs, while pulling and buffing without missing a beat and keeping pace like a BRD, we're already better than the(a) BRD. The only person who cares about how much damage we do more than a Brd, is ourselves.

So, are you going to do 1k more damage than 0, or 2k more damage than 0? The key is that you never lose sight of being the BRD replacement if thats what your job is for that party. If you are a compliment to a BRD, offer to pull for them instead sometimes. Hey, if you can pull at the same pace they would, and keep buffs up, and still WS every 3, or even 5 mobs...you're being more effective than they are. If they still want to pull, then slap on the DD sub and go to town. But being a 'DD cor' to where you limit yourself to only one aspect of our job is going to leave you LFP more times than a COR or BRD should ever be LFP.

I'm not saying it's pointless to do damage, but it IS pointless to bicker about how -much- damage we do, because a majority of our invites aren't going to be from someone expecting us to do damage. They're going to expect us to be like a BRD+1, and even with poor performance of using a weapon skill once in a blue moon already performs this BRD+1 standard. All the epeen 'WE ARE DD' attitude around here had me seriously worried about trying to merit at 75, here I was thinking I am going to blow chunks because I can't put up huge numbers. Then I realized I put up more numbers than a BRD does, and I felt a lot better about it.


So anyway. Speaking of all the mud in here. Like I said at the beginning. Where's all the authentic battle damage?!

While this is becomingly increasingly true as more COR's are playing in a BRD-wannabe style, it still doesn't excuse COR"s from making an effort to do educate the populace about what a COR brings to the party.

I had a party invite last night where, once again, I was asked to play the roll of BRD puller and run around bringing in birds and sleep staging them for the melee while applying buffs. I asked the party leader after the invite if he was getting a BRD and he said, "Why get a BRD when we have a COR? Is BRD + COR any good?" I told him that the only parties I've ever been in that broke 15k xp/hr were COR + BRD. He laid me some BS about making 18k/hr the other night with 5 DD's and a RDM. Then our party proceeded to make about 12k xp/hr. Just short of endless chaining with WAR/NIN dual wielding axes, 2 SAM/THF's and a DRK/SAM. That's the state of affairs in most PUGs on my server.

I've been in 8k xp/hr parties and 25k xp/hr parties and the big difference between the two is the good parties bring a BRD + COR and they expect the COR to bring a DD sub. If I don't see that committment from the party leader then I know We'll never get top notch xp. And I think that's what this board is really saying. We've seen meriting from both sides and universally the best xp/hr remains a BRD + COR + RDM + 3 DD with COR subbing a DD sub and taking the spot of a DD, not as a BRD replacement.

fuckin sad. i've BRD'd for 4 gimp /NINs and an average RDM and made 20k. i feel like we're not even talking about the same game.

this thread is terrible.

I have both BRD and COR, and I must say out of the 550+ merits I have (mostly earned on BRD and COR) I find that its typically not worth it for me to go COR over BRD. Sure, I have a DD COR (middle of the road items and max merits focused for DD COR) and sure, I make more exp in these parties where I am COR and there is a BRD/NIN pulling. But the problem is its only about 3k more exp per hour (it takes me to about 25k EXP from 21-22k on my BRD). I shoot for TP, so realistically I burn about 50k in gil every hour to make roughly 3k more exp on average. To me, the tradeoff just isnt worth it.

Now, of course there are situations where a DD COR can mean 8k more exp/hour, but I find this is only the case with A) 3 well geared DD are in the pt B) we have a BRD and C) we are at the North Mamool camp through Nyzul -> Thickets. Sadly, about 90% of the time only 2 (or less) of those stipulations are present.

In my travels lately, I've come to the conclusion that the jp cor/whm are not all lazy, had a merit pt today, and my friend invited a jp cor/whm, I was skeptical but I wanted to see what this one would do.

I've have now realized that some of them actually want to DD but are pigeon holed by the jp community into cor/whm, the poor guy wanted to shoot something so bad I could see it in his eyes, the rdm never went below 50% mp and the cor never really use any cures.

He did come up and whip out his sword and melee a bit, light shot a couple birds that resisted or linked, then BAM! I saw a slugshot! I was like.. wah?

Poor guy was only hitting for 500-600 though, if I spoke japanese I'd take him under my wing and show him how its done, he just was not geared for it.

Asked a jp cor seeking as whm to a pt yesterday and then asked him to come cor/rng or cor/war, to my surprise he had a good melee for tp set and good slug build, then I saw one seeking as cor/rng later in the day. maybe they see us having all the fun and want in lol.

on a side note some jp brd was seeking and invite me when I was running around as cor/blm for some warp, had in her comment "no /war or /sam", I showed up in whitegate as cor/war, well it was NA prime, and I was the only cor seeking, it turned out to be a 27k/hr pt. maybe I made a good impression, hope I changed some of thier minds on the whole thing.

The hard part of /war isn't slug accuracy, it's melée to acc. B- swd is the killer. But with sushi merits and decent acc gear it is acceptable.