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Afflatus WHMs wrecking refresh rolls?Follow

#1 May 14 2009 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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Ahoy my fellow corsairs and commodores!

Since the addition of this very beneficial pair of abilities has been added and the WHMs in my Dynamis/Einherjar shell have learned to use it, I've found it increasingly difficult to keep our party's healer refreshed without interrupting the roll cycle for the front line melee.

Just wondering if any of you have run into this, and if you have seen it become a problem at all, or if you've come up with a way around it...etc. My shell is blessed with some exceptional WHMs who are quite capable of sustaining themselves without the need for extra refresh, but I don't expect this to be the case everywhere.

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#2 May 14 2009 at 7:35 AM Rating: Default
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Well, if your WHMs think that Afflatus Misery is a legitimate excuse to melee full-time then they aren't so exceptional. Even in Nyzul when I can actually hurt stuff on WHM, I'm usually too busy hasting all my melees, removing enfeebles, regen-ing and generally keeping my MP up (Mystic Boon can't keep up in such situations) that I have no time for it. If they're simply trying to get hit with things so they can Esuna, you don't have to be right on the front line for that, and even if you avoid it, that's why we have Sacrifice. Maybe I don't understand your problem fully.

Edit - They sure as hell shouldn't be meleeing in Einherjar. There's so much AOE crap there, they should be as far away as they possibly can. Except for the en-holy effect on your weapons and the boost to Banish damage, you can get the full benefits of Misery without being close to the mob all the time.



Edited, May 14th 2009 11:06am by Filian
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#3 May 14 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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IMO, If a healer has MP problems, it is not always the healer's issue. When there is a need of cure, there is someone curing and someone needs to be cured :P

The biggest issue I have in Dynamis/Einj with Ballad/Evoker Roll is.... scattered or overclustered players. That problem is not as bad for Bard, because Bard has much less restriction in recast. But if you are COR, the only way to reroll Evoker is to get rid of Evoker that is there already -- so you are often looking at every THREE minutes to be able to do it again.

Dealing with players over clustered together -- Evoker/Ballad always get higher importance imo, because the first most important thing is not to die and keep MP up.

And as for the new WHM abilities, even they are good, they are not good enough for a WHM that spams Cure IV, or stupid melees that "LERROY JENKINS BERSERK WS when mob at 90% HP Wahaha" "3rd Eye and Seigan are for wimps!"

Edited, May 14th 2009 2:01pm by scchan
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#4 May 14 2009 at 10:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, if your WHMs think that Afflatus Misery is a legitimate excuse to melee full-time then they aren't so exceptional.


Sorry, but I don't recall the OP saying that the Whm's in his party were meleeing. Afflatus: Misery isn't an ability to let Whm automaticly melee in every situation, in fact, it probably wasn't even designed for pure meleeing.

Afflatus: Misery is useful when enemies are using light-moderate damage AoEs and AoE ailment attacks that can be healed or removed with Cura and Esuna.
Einherjar is a perfect example of where Misery shines, with the huge likelyhood of both multiple and AoE ailments. Dynamis depends greatly on the area, while most do not require Misery, it can be put to great effect on occation.

In short, Misery wasn't made for Whms to beable to melee, it helps but it does not make it viable in every situation. Misery was made so that Whms can benefit in situations where they may be forced to come into the front lines themselves.
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#5 May 14 2009 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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At first I was wondering what exactly the Afflatus abilities would have to do with your roll cycles, but then I read some of the responses...

Anyway, if a WHM is using Misery and meleeing and isn't making any effort to separate himself from the other melee, he doesn't get Evoker's Roll. Simple. If I were the COR in this situation, I'd just treat the WHM like a melee, and he gets melee rolls.

If their goal is simply to get hit by AoE attacks for Esuna purposes or whatnot, it's simple enough to do that while still sufficiently distancing yourself from the frontline for buffs. At that point, if the COR still cannot keep the proper buffs separated, that's either his own problem, or a problem with the placement of the rest of the party (ex: the WHM and the backline being on opposite sides of the mob is no good, obviously)

I very rarely party with a COR (there aren't many of them, see) so this is rarely an issue for my own WHM.

Edited, May 14th 2009 2:53pm by Fynlar
#6 May 14 2009 at 12:02 PM Rating: Default
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Sorry, but I don't recall the OP saying that the Whm's in his party were meleeing. Afflatus: Misery isn't an ability to let Whm automaticly melee in every situation, in fact, it probably wasn't even designed for pure meleeing.

Afflatus: Misery is useful when enemies are using light-moderate damage AoEs and AoE ailment attacks that can be healed or removed with Cura and Esuna.
Einherjar is a perfect example of where Misery shines, with the huge likelyhood of both multiple and AoE ailments. Dynamis depends greatly on the area, while most do not require Misery, it can be put to great effect on occation.

In short, Misery wasn't made for Whms to beable to melee, it helps but it does not make it viable in every situation. Misery was made so that Whms can benefit in situations where they may be forced to come into the front lines themselves.


I understand that, but if he's having a problem refreshing the WHM because of Afflatus Misery, what other explanation could there be than that they are meleeing?
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#7 May 14 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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what other explanation could there be than that they are meleeing?


As stated in previous posts-

Misery can only be utilized if the WHM is also being affected by AoE. This is particularly useful in Einherjar, where aoe debuffs (such as Attack Down) are often spammed. If the WHM is standing in range, he can use Esuna or Cura to great effect, making his job much easier.

I also like to use it in Salvage against gears and the Zhayolm chariot.

As for OP, I suggest coordinating rolls with your WHM. If they are as good as you say, I'm sure they would be quite happy to oblige moving slightly apart from the melees when you are ready to give them the roll. Just send them a /tell, move, roll, and get back to business.
If your WHM just doesn't want the roll, don't worry about it.
#8 May 14 2009 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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If they are even 5 steps apart from the melee, any good COR would be able to guage the distance and give the WHM their specific rolls, therefore that is not a problem. Maybe we should have the OP specify exactly what the problem is if it isn't WHMs meleeing.
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#9 May 14 2009 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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Because the White Mage has to cast Cura and Esuna on themselves. Which means they have to walk to the melees for them to get the effect. They just have to be more aware of when the Corsair is rolling and act accordingly I suppose. Which can be difficult at times, from a White Mage's point of view.
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#10 May 14 2009 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Misery is absolutely the way to go for WHM in certain situations in Einherjar, and as stated above, it has nothing to do with meleeing.

When you get enemies spamming low damage, but frequent AoE moves that include status ailments, the WHM needs to be upfront to not only get the status ailment on them to use Esuna, but to take the damage so they can counter it with a Cura. This negates stuff like leeches' Acid Mist, skeletons' Black Cloud, Wivre's Demoralizing Roar, Bats' Slipstream, Turbulence, Sonic Boom etc. for about 40 mp it removes everything from the group instantly and cures them to full.

Try to have them stand like Paladins do in xp parties, up close but on the very edge so you can reach them and the backline mages. If that doesn't work then they just have to go without Evoker's.

Edited, May 14th 2009 10:09pm by JingWoo
#11 May 14 2009 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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No, it isn't.

Stay in afflatus solace until you see a melee hit by a detrimental AoE with impairing traits. Cast sacrifice on that melee, switch to misery, run into range and esuna, then run out. There is no reason to be in melee range save for casting a quick bar spell in Einherjar, especially when mobs like slimes are present.

You should stay in solace because:

1) It adds MDEF to your bar spells
2) It adds stoneskin to your cures
3) Sacrifice takes off more statuses/a wider range of status ailments in solace
4) Not ALL AoEs require you to be in misery to remove...AoE paralyze, blind, etc do not require misery for esuna to work

The only time where I have stayed in misery full time would be on Ouryu due to the large radius of bai wing coupled with the fact that being hit by the damaging AoEs charges curas potency and makes it very useful for sustaining backline jobs in between.

As for the OP's problem, I can sympathize with your plight even though I play WHM at events. I usually drive my BRDs nuts in dynamis due to all the running about with esuna. Of course, BRDs can simply pianissimo ballad me so that isn't really an issue...I haven't had the opportunity to play with a COR on any endgame events but I'm sure it'd be worse since you do not have a pianissimo-like ability.

Perhaps make a macro with your PT's WHMs name in it that has a /tell explaining for them to gather to you for evokers. That's really the only solution I can give you.

Personally, I do not need ballad or evoker's for things like Einherjar or Dynamis. If a BRD insists on giving me ballad, pianissimo + ballad 2 will sustain me just fine. Dark arts + aspir on statues/casting mobs is great in dynamis but you don't have that much leeway in Einherjar.

Edited, May 14th 2009 11:15pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#12 May 14 2009 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Hitome wrote:
Stay in afflatus solace until you see a melee hit by a detrimental AoE with impairing traits. Cast sacrifice on that melee, switch to misery, run into range and esuna, then run out. There is no reason to be in melee range save for casting a quick bar spell in Einherjar, especially when mobs like slimes are present.
That works if you want to use a Curaga II instead of a Cura, the Cura requires you get hit first for the potency boost. In addition, they spam the moves so fast in Einherjar that you will never keep up when using the one minute delay from switching stances. I usually have to hasten myself and stand in range to remove everything. And the main point is that they stand in range to use Cura also. For most situations, Solace is obviously the way to go. Claiming there are no situations for Misery though just means you never use Cura, ever.
#13 May 14 2009 at 7:18 PM Rating: Good
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Cura is insanely useful like I mentioned for things like Ouryu. I assume it'd be the same for Fafnir/Nidhogg/other wyrms but I haven't had the opportunity to fight any of those on WHM since the update. There are times for full time misery but staying within melee range can be very dangerous in Einherjar.
#14 May 14 2009 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I agree. I would never stand in range on slimes. It's good for low/moderate damage AoEs like the ones I listed in my initial post and a few others that I can't think of right now. I still love Curaga, but when they spam the moves constantly and they do low damage that won't wipe you instantly, 30 mp is alot cheaper than 120 mp, and the additional 18 mp on Sacrifice.

Edited, May 14th 2009 10:29pm by JingWoo
#15 May 15 2009 at 6:42 AM Rating: Good
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So he came here and made a post asking us how to tell his WHMs to stand back a bit? I'd like to give him a bit more credit than that. Mages running up temporarily is not a new problem associated with Afflatus Misery; We always had to do it for protectra/shellra and barspells. The solution is an interestin strategy I like to call "wait 5 freaking seconds for the WHM to come back".



Edited, May 15th 2009 7:46am by Filian
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#16 May 15 2009 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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All the responses are much appreciated. I posted semi-ambiguously because I am not a WHM main, and as such do not completely understand the mechanics of these abilities and when to use them.

When posting, I was thinking specifically of Einherjar, though I have run into the same situation in Dynamis (just not as often). The way our 'shell does Einherjar, we have the mages generally stay where we enter, the melee slightly ahead of there, and a puller brings back a few mobs at a time to be slept. A chooser swaps to the next mob as appropriate, which can lead to a lot of bouncing around the room.

The WHM(/SCH) in question was not meleeing (like I said, they know better), but was in fact coming to the front line to be hit with all the AoE affects in order to remove them. Fortunately, Cura is a very MP efficient spell to begin with, and she was also using Sublimination (iirc) to restore MP. The RDM stood further back, supporting the melee with additional cures and haste.

While it ended up not being much of a problem (MP was low about halfway through, thanks to bats & leeches, but after some resting all was well), it was a new adjustment for me, and so I wondered if anyone else here found themselves in similar situations, whether in these same events or others, so the community could discuss. I typically just landed melee rolls on her, or quickly moved to apply Evoker's when she was near the RDM. Usually, she was too close to the rest of the melee to position myself to just hit her. (side note: if the melees were all DRK/BLU/PLD, I'd just hit them all...)

This also a subtle way to express the need for a Pianissimo-like ability for CORs. :D

Thanks to all for your comments.
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#17 May 15 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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heavensword wrote:
This also a subtle way to express the need for a Pianissimo-like ability for CORs. :D


Eh, no thanks. We get along fine without it. Just need to keep an eye on what the party is doing and also alert people to the rolls you're giving if you think it will be a problem.

And while we're on the topic, I don't want a Haste roll, a movement speed roll, or a Reraise roll either.

Let BRDs be BRDs and CORs be CORs.
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#18 May 15 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Well, if your WHMs think that Afflatus Misery is a legitimate excuse to melee full-time then they aren't so exceptional. Even in Nyzul when I can actually hurt stuff on WHM, I'm usually too busy hasting all my melees, removing enfeebles, regen-ing and generally keeping my MP up (Mystic Boon can't keep up in such situations) that I have no time for it. If they're simply trying to get hit with things so they can Esuna, you don't have to be right on the front line for that, and even if you avoid it, that's why we have Sacrifice. Maybe I don't understand your problem fully.


In my ls, since I run it, I had a night where the sole WHM was /NIN for the entire run. It actually worked amazingly. A WHM/NIN with Mystic boon and March x2, Min/Mad, and Ballad x2 is a @#%^ing beast when it comes to healing. If you did have a WHM meleeing, @#%^ evoker's, give em melee rolls like fighter's and chaos so they can get mp back faster.

I'd say that since the introduction of Misery, WHM has made it to the front lines in my book for events like City Dynamis, Limbus that doesn't involve U/O, some salvage runs, Nyzul, Sky/Sea farms, and any event where mobs don't have extremely high levels, defense, or evasion. Hell, WHM/SCH melee is pretty @#%^ing sweet for merits these day, I'd even take it over a RDM. I mean you have more cure potency, better regens, -10% on spell costs, half cost on big spells, easy access to 5mp a tick refresh in a standard merit pt, sublimation, and mystic boon.

I know this isn't all on topic or anything, but to say WHM's who melee aren't so exceptional, is just sheer stupidity. Melee WHM can be put to amazing use in the right situations, if you have a WHM good enough to pull it off.
#19 May 15 2009 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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In my ls, since I run it, I had a night where the sole WHM was /NIN for the entire run. It actually worked amazingly. A WHM/NIN with Mystic boon and March x2, Min/Mad, and Ballad x2 is a @#%^ing beast when it comes to healing. If you did have a WHM meleeing, @#%^ evoker's, give em melee rolls like fighter's and chaos so they can get mp back faster.


three BRDs? wut

But yeah, I melee in Nyzul on my WHM/SCH now. I won't be winning any parses, but that isn't my goal anyway. My biggest problem now is learning to keep Stoneskin down so that I can actually make use of Cura >_> As long as you recognize that there are some things that you should not be meleeing, it isn't any problem at all.

Edited, May 15th 2009 4:15pm by Fynlar
#20 May 15 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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We generally go into dynamis with 2-3 brds, essentially 1 per pt, and then rotate them the whole run.
#21 May 15 2009 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Rotate brds the whole run?! Thats crazy.
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#22 May 15 2009 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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In my ls, since I run it, I had a night where the sole WHM was /NIN for the entire run. It actually worked amazingly. A WHM/NIN with Mystic boon and March x2, Min/Mad, and Ballad x2 is a @#%^ing beast when it comes to healing. If you did have a WHM meleeing, @#%^ evoker's, give em melee rolls like fighter's and chaos so they can get mp back faster.

I'd say that since the introduction of Misery, WHM has made it to the front lines in my book for events like City Dynamis, Limbus that doesn't involve U/O, some salvage runs, Nyzul, Sky/Sea farms, and any event where mobs don't have extremely high levels, defense, or evasion. Hell, WHM/SCH melee is pretty @#%^ing sweet for merits these day, I'd even take it over a RDM. I mean you have more cure potency, better regens, -10% on spell costs, half cost on big spells, easy access to 5mp a tick refresh in a standard merit pt, sublimation, and mystic boon.

I know this isn't all on topic or anything, but to say WHM's who melee aren't so exceptional, is just sheer stupidity. Melee WHM can be put to amazing use in the right situations, if you have a WHM good enough to pull it off.


Afflatus Misery didn't do anything to solve the major fundamental problem flaw with WHM, or any mage, meleeing. People who don't play mages seem to think that we only cast occasionally and spend the rest of the time just standing around, but a _good_ mage will almost always be casting something. If they aren't casting something immediately important, there are almost always seconday or tertiary spells of benefit that they could be casting. The problem is that while you're casting, you simply won't be swinging your weapon, and vice versa. Imagine trying to DD where youre expected to keep everyone alive and hasted and free of enfeebles and every spell takes 3 or 4 seconds to cast. Oh, and the only way you can keep your MP up is to melee. The more you cast, the more you need to melee to get MP back with Mystic Boon, but the more you cast, the less time you have to melee.

No matter how you look at it, in most situations, if you're meleeing then you're failing to do your job in some other way. I guarantee you that I have more experience with WHM melee than 90% of WHMs do, so I can tell you exactly where it does work. It works in low number situations (duo, trio) and it works on situations where the mobs are weak and your party does not rely on you as much. Nyzul is one example of this, but even then it's only on occasion.
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#23 May 15 2009 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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Afflatus Misery didn't do anything to solve the major fundamental problem flaw with WHM, or any mage, meleeing. People who don't play mages seem to think that we only cast occasionally and spend the rest of the time just standing around, but a _good_ mage will almost always be casting something. If they aren't casting something immediately important, there are almost always seconday or tertiary spells of benefit that they could be casting. The problem is that while you're casting, you simply won't be swinging your weapon, and vice versa. Imagine trying to DD where youre expected to keep everyone alive and hasted and free of enfeebles and every spell takes 3 or 4 seconds to cast. Oh, and the only way you can keep your MP up is to melee. The more you cast, the more you need to melee to get MP back with Mystic Boon, but the more you cast, the less time you have to melee.


I'm going to call bull sh*t on this. Tell me, in Dynamis (hell anything where WHM/NIN would be viable), what spells are you going to be casting? Haste cycle on a few melee. Cures. Can't really count Pro/Shell since you can very easily cast them in down time and they last for half an hour. Are you full timing a regen cycle? If you are it's a waste of mp since Regens are like cures, and thus reactionary. So basically you haste, cure, regen and status removal.

Holy sh*t, that's crippling! You'll never ever get tp like that! The only way to get your mp back up is to melee! @#%^ pianissimo'd ballads and noble's, Sanction/Sigil/FoV Refresh! In all honesty, even with all the casting pausing your timer, you can still generate more mp over time through mystic boon spam than refresh/evoker's.

The reason most mages don't melee is because their damage sucks complete @#%^ing ass for the most part. The reason it's becoming more viable for WHM to melee, is that they have other purposes they can fulfill by meleeing. If you're going to be standing up front to tank advantage of m isery anyway, why not melee? Hell, meleeing give you tp to use mystic boon, which can give you a nice mp return over time. So you have a purpose to your melee, other than damage, that makes it worthwhile.

Let me rephrase that, because RDM has a purpose to melee besides damage also. WHMs purpose on the frontlines is a useful purpose.
#24 May 15 2009 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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Well since you have no personal experience with it, you'll pretty much have to take my word for it. I've tried it. Honestly, I've tried meleeing WHM almost everywhere and I would love to say it's practical but it just isn't in most situations. There is simply a point in the ratio of time spent meleeing to time spent casting beyond which it becomes impossible to keep MP up, assuming you are performing all your vital jobs, and it happens quite early. In a perfect theoretical world your job may include "only" hasting 4 melees, but in practice WHM is a much more reactionary and unpredicatable job. Chances are you will be keeping an appropriate barspell up, removing debuffs constantly, regening your melees whenever possible, curing when not and tossing out raises and flashes as necessary. And then if there really is time off, you should be resting, which is still more efficient than Mystic Boon for recovering MP. This all goes without even considering the sacrifices in gear you would need to make to even be remotely effective meleeing on a Dynamis-level mob. It also goes without considering the potential benefits of that other little JA we got, Afflatus Solace.

I duo with my GF in Caedarva regularly, me as WHM/NIN and her as THF and without tooting my own horn, I'll just say that we're both well-equipped. In fact, I'm not sure where I could even improve on my WHM melee set. In such a situation, with only two players to take care of, meleeing works if neither of us make a mistake and if I drop every ounce of gear and time I possibly can on meleeing. (even then my damage is dismal compared to hers by the way) When we fight anything even slightly harder than that, it's more practical for me to stay away. We duo'd Ungur last week and I sure as heck wasn't going to melee that, my MP simply wouldn't have kept up even with only one person to keep alive. Plus, I catch one bad para or he dispels my sublimation or I eat a radiant breath and we're fooked. If I had a full party on Ungur, I would basically be condemning them all to death by insisting that I melee too.

If you're really interested in having this conversation, take it to the WHM forums and see what people who actually play the job have to say.
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#25 May 15 2009 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Mobs that I don't advise meleeing in Nyzul (this is pretty much all common sense, so if you have it, you might as well save time by finding some other post to read):

- Imps. Alas, you cannot Esuna silence, and although your frontline might not even need Silena, it's not really practical for you to get silenced along with them
- Sewer Syrup, mainly because his Fluid Spread is a killer. Regular slimes are not as bad, and you might even be able to utilize Cura
- Dahaks
- Wyverns
- Any of the bosses. Note however that you might find it useful to stand in range for some of them for Cura/Esuna purposes. If you're really pimped enough to think you can also handle meleeing against those, then...

Mobs that you could melee, but you'll want to make sure some things are taken care of first:

- Soulflayers. Make sure that Ice Spikes gets removed first, and do not stand behind whoever has hate
- Skeletons/ghosts. Yeah, you'll be tempted to waste no time and club these suckers up, but please Banish them first asap; your other melees will appreciate it. Also, make sure they don't have Ice Spikes
- Pots. Same as above, but replace Banish with Silence
- Bombs/clusters. Make sure to throw on the Blessed Briault and Solace and Barfira first; it could save a life if they decide to combust


There's probably more that could be added into both groups, but I am now leaving work and don't have the time to think of any more!
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