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Is Evoker's Roll always necessary in meripo?Follow

#1 Apr 29 2009 at 9:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Hi, me again... sorry for the silly questions, but I am new to merit burns as COR (usually always went as MNK or BRD).

Anyways, here's my question. If a party has a BRD and a RDM, and the BRD is pulling fast, the RDM has refresh and ballad on plus whatever other MP refresh from sanction, etc..

Do you ALWAYS have to use evoker's roll?

I have noticed many times that the RDM is sitting on nearly full MP at all times, and doesn't even need to use convert.

Isn't Evoker's Roll kind of a waste in that situation?

I feel that if I didn't have to give that particular RDM Evoker's Roll, then I could increase my DD potential and therefore make the party better.

Am I wrong to think this?

I tried this out in a couple of meripos, and the RDM's get ****** if they don't get Evoker's Roll or if it wears off without being recast fast enough...

What's the deal? Do they have a right to be upset, or should I be upset at them for sitting on MP?

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#2 Apr 29 2009 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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No, you're not wrong to think that.
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#3 Apr 29 2009 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Or you could just give them the roll.

Unless they speically ask you not to. Or you ask them not to. I would prefer you to give them the roll. Its about what...20seconds? You can spare that.


I mean really.

As sch I have had brd+cor parties and expected both. But in certain areas,(bird camps) I can live without either buffs. But if we're talking mamools then ya probably gonna need both.


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#4 Apr 29 2009 at 11:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I once had a SCH main healing on Mamool Ja, and he specifically asked me and the BRD to not give him any form of Refresh. We decided to see if he was really as hot as he thought he was...and he was. Don't know how he managed so well, but it worked out great.

Anyway, if you think the healer would do fine without Evoker's, ask them if you can drop it out of the cycle. If they say they're fine without it, try dropping it and see how it works.

Of course, the only reason I could see for this would be to keep DD buffs on yourself longer and give yourself more time to do damage rather than buff. Minimal improvement in exchange for a possible major disaster.

tl;dr: The most important thing to do is ask them first. Communication is key.
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#5 Apr 30 2009 at 2:08 AM Rating: Default
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I really don't see how they'd be fine without evokers... were all the DDs gimping it up by subbing NIN or something?
#6 Apr 30 2009 at 3:22 AM Rating: Good
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Kerb wrote:
I really don't see how they'd be fine without evokers... were all the DDs gimping it up by subbing NIN or something?


If you have a good healer and dds that know what they are doing, its not hard at all. I've main healed merit parties as cor/dnc using 0 mp. A rdm properly using refresh and covert, especially now with super composure refresh, or a sch who uses sublimation properly, or even a whm/sch can all sustain themselves fairly well as long as all the dds aren't /war and zerking and taking hate with absolutely no form of damage mitagation. Sam or /sam has seigan. War and mnks can counter. Most single handers are /nin anyway. So as long as your dds aren't retarded should be no problem keeping mp up.

That being said, I still normally keep evokers up even if they don't really need it, unless they tell me not to, which does happen occasionally lol.
#7 Apr 30 2009 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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As I almost always go /DNC I don't feel the need to Evoker's up religiously so to speak. I usually help out with the healing so MP usually never is an issue. **** I've also had PTs where the healer magically disappeared (Read: AFK 5~10 Minutes) and I kept everyone alive.

It's always good to keep it up a majority of the time. It's nice to have a little cushion between converts.

~Ath
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#8 Apr 30 2009 at 7:32 AM Rating: Default
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Well at bird camp where the RDM can't do anything else but haste/refresh/Dia/Cure, I'm sure they can get by in many situations without Evokers.

But in that case, the DD should have come as /WAR to output more damage and get hit a bit more.

In a perfect situation the healers and DD work in sync so that the DD max their damage to the point where they are stressing the MP regen of the healer but not to the point of exhausting the mana resources.

Sometimes the DD gear too much for damage mitigation and the healer is bored and sometimes they pay no heed to damage mitigatioin and the healer runs out of MP.

Personally I'd keep the evokers roll on just for "oh ****" moments. 4 pecking furies in a row to an-unshadowed DD can use up MP in a hurry.

Also, in that situation, it might be better for the BRD to lay off the ballads to concentrate better on pulling, since that is more likely to influence xp/hr rather than a slight increase in COR DD output.
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#9 Apr 30 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dartagnann wrote:
In a perfect situation the healers and DD work in sync so that the DD max their damage to the point where they are stressing the MP regen of the healer but not to the point of exhausting the mana resources.

I've seen some RDM pop like an R2 unit with a bad motivator Smiley: lol

~Ath
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#10 Apr 30 2009 at 7:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Or you could just give them the roll.

Unless they speically ask you not to. Or you ask them not to. I would prefer you to give them the roll. Its about what...20seconds? You can spare that.


I mean really.

As sch I have had brd+cor parties and expected both. But in certain areas,(bird camps) I can live without either buffs. But if we're talking mamools then ya probably gonna need both.


Dont forget why your there.


Obviously I give Evoker's Roll when needed, and if there's no BRD it's not even a question then I automatically assume I am needed for Evokers...

But since when did healers become so dependent upon 10 MP/tick refresh or they can't do their job properly?

My first job to 75 was WHM, and any time I play WHM in meripo I insist that the BRD only give me Ballad when I'm low on MP so they can pull faster!

That's what a HMP set is for... so you can rest and recover MP when you're not casting spells instead of standing there with your thumb up your ***.

Anyways, the main reason I asked is because outside of those parties I mentioned previously where the RDM would insist upon it (even though its a waste), I have had 2 parties in particular where I did not use Evoker's Roll hardly at all except on the rare occasion that the mage actually needed it, and they were the best parties by far.

One was with a RDM from my linkshell (who happens to be a Galka), and he was so good at conserving MP that he never even needed Evokers... and we did chain 150 or so on the 2nd floor of Nyzul Isle > Bhaflau Thickets birds before we had to take a break because we were just all getting tired.

And another party that was insanely fun was with a DNC and a DRG/WHM who shared curing duties, and we just roamed the bottom bird camp killing just as fast as repops... again we hit chain 150 or so before getting tired and needing a break.

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FFXI JOBS LEVELLED:

WHM 75 PLD 75 MNK 75 BRD 75
SMN 75 WAR 75 BLM 75 COR 75
RNG 72 DRG 60 DRK 50 THF 49
NIN 47 SAM 37 RDM 37 DNC 37


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#11 Apr 30 2009 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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I rarely use Evoker's. I go /DNC instead.

If I forgo Evoker's, that means I get to keep fulltime Corsair's.
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#12 Apr 30 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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redvenomweb wrote:
I rarely use Evoker's. I go /DNC instead.

If I forgo Evoker's, that means I get to keep fulltime Corsair's.

Sounds like we think alike.

~Ath
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#13 Apr 30 2009 at 8:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Cor 74, only cor in my ls / don't have much cor pals sooo i'll ask yall :o

Brd + Cor pty = example

my ls says cor's roll = waste, but i see a lot of people asking for it sometime :/

In a merit pt w/ a brd, is cor's roll good / bad? Or should i just ask them what they want?
What about when the dd ask for samurai / rogue's roll? idk really know the one's good / bad yet :/

and also >_<

I try to hit the healer w/ evoker's and scholar's roll (refresh / conserve mp) should i skip sch's?
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#14 Apr 30 2009 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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Ryankcross wrote:
Cor 74, only cor in my ls / don't have much cor pals sooo i'll ask yall :o

Brd + Cor pty = example

my ls says cor's roll = waste, but i see a lot of people asking for it sometime :/

Corsair's Roll is awesomesauce use it to replace Fighter's Roll in high end XP/Merit

Ryankcross wrote:
In a merit pt w/ a brd, is cor's roll good / bad? Or should i just ask them what they want?

With a Bard I would full time Chaos/Corsair's and the occasional Evoker's

Ryankcross wrote:
What about when the dd ask for samurai / rogue's roll? idk really know the one's good / bad yet :/

Again Chaos/Fighters are usually the most effective.

Ryankcross wrote:
and also why >_<
  • Chaos Roll: Huge band for your buck here. Probably our most potent roll here. Basically It's your defualt Melee Roll.
  • Fighter's Roll: Probably our next best Melee roll. Better then SAM do to X-hit builds and DA not only gains more TP but adds extra Damage as well
  • Rogue's Roll: Highly Situational - Hydra maybe. Crits just aren't as Potent in Merit/XP situations as other rolls.
  • Samurai Roll
  • Overated for XP/Merit IMHO except for a few instances. Ammo Burn Partys. Great for Solo tho

Ryankcross wrote:
I try to hit the healer w/ evoker's and scholar's roll (refresh / conserve mp) should i skip sch's?

Usually a 4 roll rotation is over kill. If you're healer absolutely needs then yes, though if its Merits i'd find another party mate.


Hope that helps

~Ath
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#15 Apr 30 2009 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
In a merit pt w/ a brd, is cor's roll good / bad? Or should i just ask them what they want?
What about when the dd ask for samurai / rogue's roll? idk really know the one's good / bad yet :/


Is there another roll in your ******* that can add 15-24% increase in xp/hr? If so use it.

If your party can't chain endlessly to get the chain bonus to xp, then give a roll that will produce endless chains. If you can chain endlessly then very likely an extra DD roll will only lead to overkilling the repop timers. COR will give a flat bonus to xp that can't usually be beat by another DD roll in that setting.

My standard rolls are COR/Chaos/Evokers. I still roll Evokers even though I go /DNC to most pickup meripo. Sometimes the RDM doesn't need it but they'll still say something if I stop rolling it.

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#16 Apr 30 2009 at 9:25 PM Rating: Good
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I usually do an occasional Evoker's. At bird camp, I've found that most RDMs and WHMs tend to be fine with that. However at mamool, your healer will generally need all the MP they can get.

Don't forget about Random Deal! Especially if you have a RDM. I seem to have a really good rate at resetting Convert, so it helps a ton, especially if you're not giving evoker's a 100%.
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#17 Apr 30 2009 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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I've found that ballad is one of the first songs to go in a fast-pace party with good DDs and a bard puller, so I generally do need evoker's to keep MP up. If I'm getting constant ballad then nah I don't need it, but usually it's more like "I'll toss you a ballad whenever a new pop shows up on top of us", so I get ballad for like 1 min out of every 5.
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#18 Apr 30 2009 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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What else would you give a RDM in merits, really?

I don't see why using Evoker's on him would keep you from using Corsair's.

Some RDMs prefer not to burn through their MP and only use Convert when they really have to. Others prefer to ride the Convert timer.

Query -- was that RDM casting Dia on every mob? If you're speedkilling, that alone should add enough MP usage to the RDM's plate to keep him out of excess.

Quote:
I've main healed merit parties as cor/dnc using 0 mp.


That's not really main healing.

A party that needs so little healing that a COR/DNC could cover it doesn't even need a "main healer". Sounds about as silly as inviting a PLD to a lolibri burn and calling him a "tank".
#19 May 01 2009 at 12:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
What else would you give a RDM in merits, really?

I don't agree with that logic. You don't have to do or give anyone anything, unless it makes sense to do so.

There are times where, especially on birds, the mage is sitting at nearly full MP all day, and using Evoker's isn't helping one bit (and by taking away from your damage, is hurting the exp). As Kerb hits on, this is probably because the DD's are /Nin instead of using /Sam or /War.. But there can be exceptions. NIN, THF, BLU, etc can all be strong DDs if geared and played correctly, and DWing it up isn't taking away from their damage like it would be for a WAR/NIN or MNK/NIN.

I'll agree that for the most part, the DDs 'should' be taking enough damage (and the mage casting enough otherwise - Haste, Dia, etc) to make Evoker's an obvious choice to use.. The only exception may be, as pointed out already, going COR/DNC.
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#20 May 01 2009 at 3:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There are times where, especially on birds, the mage is sitting at nearly full MP all day


I have never had scenarios like that as RDM or WHM in meripo. If you are, your mage probably isn't doing all of what he should be. I'm not talking about just healing, either.

Edited, May 1st 2009 7:06am by Fynlar
#21 May 01 2009 at 4:14 AM Rating: Good
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There are many things that I don't really see eye-to-eye on in this thread, so I thoguht i'd say a coupe of them and give my opinion why.

Viska wrote:
Fighter's Roll: Probably our next best Melee roll. Better then SAM do to X-hit builds and DA not only gains more TP but adds extra Damage as well


Hunter's roll easily surpasses Fighters roll in any situation unless melee are more than 88-89% ACC. Hunter's roll gives a good 10-15% acc on average which is at least an 11.8% boost to DD at 85% ACC and below.

Fighter's roll w/o a WAR probably gives around 8-10% DA boos on average, which is less than an 8-10% Boost if those jobs have Brutal or /war. It also only allows 2H's to ws 1 hit earlier 8-10% of the time. WIth a war in pty, that goes up to 15%?, those are saying high rolls w/o unlucky's or 11's.

Sam's roll guarantee's in almost all cases an attack round less to 100% TP with or without a SAM in the pty (only time a 2H won't knock a hit off 100% TP is with an unlucky).

Fighter's roll may have a kinda eye candy to it, but it is 3rd-4th in our potential best melee rolls. (SE put DA+2 as an ACP stat, look how much attentsion that 1 stat caused over the job forums, and look how many noobs have it on their Mirke's or w/e becasue they don't know any better).

Just my take on it tho Viska.

earthsuming wrote:
Or you could just give them the roll.

Unless they speically ask you not to. Or you ask them not to. I would prefer you to give them the roll. Its about what...20seconds? You can spare that.


I mean really.

As sch I have had brd+cor parties and expected both. But in certain areas,(bird camps) I can live without either buffs. But if we're talking mamools then ya probably gonna need both.

Dont forget why your there.



You obviously have little idea of how Cor works, and just see us as buffs (much like some guys just look @ women as *** objects).

Kerb wrote:
I really don't see how they'd be fine without evokers... were all the DDs gimping it up by subbing NIN or something?


Thing is, most meripo setups still need DD to have some form of dmg mitigation in the group. 2H's /SAM, others /NIN. Are you saying your RDM can successfully heal a couple of mnk/war's and a sam/war in a RDM,BRD,COR,MNK,MNK,SAM setup? DMG mitigation is part of hate bouncing meripo's.

I never usually post long stuff, but was bored.


Edited, May 1st 2009 8:16am by Sandmasterr
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#22 May 01 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You obviously have little idea of how Cor works, and just see us as buffs (much like some guys just look @ women as *** objects).


To be fair, your buffs are really the reason why you get invited in the first place. Any COR who doesn't see and recognize that is, quite bluntly, deluding themselves.
#23 May 01 2009 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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I've come to notice that birds aren't too stressful on the healers, so I'll roll an evokers when they get to half mp or so, mamool, I roll regardless, they'll need it for those "oh ****" momemnts that happen there.
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#24 May 01 2009 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Thing is, most meripo setups still need DD to have some form of dmg mitigation in the group. 2H's /SAM, others /NIN. Are you saying your RDM can successfully heal a couple of mnk/war's and a sam/war in a RDM,BRD,COR,MNK,MNK,SAM setup? DMG mitigation is part of hate bouncing meripo's.

Yes, I am saying that. Every DD should be able to use /WAR or whatever their most damaging sub is and go full-out 24/7 if the party is good. You don't need to bounce hate when the mob dies in 12-15 seconds.
#25 May 01 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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A WHM or RDM supported by both a BRD and a COR should be able to do that, yeah. That's a TON of MP regeneration. XD

Take one of them out and it will start to become more of a gray area.
#26 May 01 2009 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Yes, I am saying that. Every DD should be able to use /WAR or whatever their most damaging sub is and go full-out 24/7 if the party is good. You don't need to bounce hate when the mob dies in 12-15 seconds.


I don't think every job should be able to sub /WAR in meripo, that's just silly...

SAM/WAR or NIN/WAR are fine because they already have damage mitigation, but MNK/WAR, DRK/WAR, DRG/WAR, etc. etc. etc. will slow you down because of having to stop for MP.

And please don't say Counterstance is damage mitigation or I'll send you to the MNK forums where you will be slapped in the face 1000x. At best Counterstance is a 50/50 chance of not getting hit while you cast Utsusemi: Ichi... and then only if you have the MNK AF2 boots and other +counter gear for your macro.

I went to meripo today with my MNK, and the other 2 DD were SAM/WAR, and who do you think tanked the whole time?

If I had been MNK/WAR I would have been raped in the face repeatedly by Mamools lol.
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FFXI JOBS LEVELLED:

WHM 75 PLD 75 MNK 75 BRD 75
SMN 75 WAR 75 BLM 75 COR 75
RNG 72 DRG 60 DRK 50 THF 49
NIN 47 SAM 37 RDM 37 DNC 37


Woodworking 100+6

Server: Asura
Characters: Gangstathugz, Aedal, Sugababie, Balthezar (retired)
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