AF2 pants, usefulness?Follow

Coronach has negative enmity; Namas Arrow just has low enmity for the damage (reportedly).

I don't know about Namas, but as far as Coronach goes, if a RNG and a NIN walk outside Whitegate and RNG uses Coronach on a Lesser Colibri (~1500 damage), Hojo: Ni will pull it off of him.

As for parties and subjobs:

I guess I'll go ahead and play the part of the broken record again - /DNC is the most underrated SJ for COR, by a long shot. COR/xxx+COR/DNC+BRD/NIN will walk over COR/xxx+BRD/WHM+BRD/NIN for free.

I literally cannot remember the last time I merited with a DD that had /NIN (my primary merit tank is SAM/WAR). COR/DNC (paricularly M.Kris /DNC) provides fully-functional backup healing on demand while also allowing for ~90% of the damage output of a straight DD subjob. Drain Samba (even subbed) is incredibly effective at reducing MP demand. When I used Joyeuse, I'd generally save to 125 TP, then use Drain Samba+WS... but since I got M.Kris, there's simply no need. I break 25 TP on my first melee round after a WS.

M.Kris COR/DNC is like playing a different game. I don't know how else to put it.

Ill agree that COR/DNC just cant stack up to the amount of damage /rng and /war can do. The fact your having to save over 100tp every time drastically reduces your ability to pwn. I'm not say /dnc is bad, its just different.

Back to kwonos and his pwnage, your hp is the problem. With pecking flurry being able to crit at 900 on an elvaan I can see why your dieing so much. More HP merits should stop that. Also your enmity merits are @#%^ing you over. Think about taking one or two out. You may think they arent having a drastic effect but they are. You cant really see it when your pting with a relic weilder because their damage is almost on par with your hate.

I was going to say you could look int getting a Commodore Frac +1 to replace your denali body but, your need for hp over rides that. I have lately tended to start meleeing in an Assault Jerkin, when im not needing the acc boost for Pah Body. I like it alot.

Also I now understand why I thought those numbers were off, I wasn't takeing into account how much Dia III was doing.

I have one question, the othernight when I wsa breaching 600 attack I wasnt hitting for much harder then I was at 400. I was wondering if it was because I didnt have enough STR to supplement the attack.

I am a big cor/dnc fan myself, I have given up trying to convince people. Anyone in my ls who has merited with me knows how well it works and and releaves some stress on the healer.

I have done some pickup parties(yea I know) where I am using most of my tp to cure, I tend to leave those very fast.

I still need to finish my dnc sub :( Its sitting at 35, which was good enough to get me everything I needed for soloing on nin/dnc, but I'm still embarassed to actually party with it. I'll go solo it to 37 some afternoon and give cor/dnc a shot on meripo. I believe that it works good, /dnc is incredibly strong.

What I am curious about is why /dnc if you have two bards? Is the healing really necessary with a brd/whm and a rdm/whm? Or does the healing compensate for the damage you'll be taking?

I'm also curious what food you were using in that parse? Coeurl sub?

I definitely plan on giving it a try in meripo when I finish it off, but I'd imagine sometimes the extra healing isn't needed. Although maybe it gives you the freedom to heal yourself if you don't have shadows.

In a party that only has brd+cor or cor+cor I can easily see cor/dnc being the superior choice.

Have you tried cor/nin since you got your m. kris in setups where the mp wasn't an issue?

I haven't, because I don't. For whatever reason, I just don't wind up with dual BRD parties. If I did, I might switch to /RNG, but it just hasn't come up. However, Drain Samba (and Box Step) might convince me to stay /DNC.

The cool thing about Box Step is that if I end up with 110+TP (which happens a lot with M.Kris) it's a free damage boost to WS.


Subs+Chaos+Corsair's+Hunter's+Samurai+Min4+March2


There are only two situations I can imagine that being the case:

1) you are partied with BRD/WHM
2) you are partied with THFs and NINs (jobs that will have Utsusemi regardless)

Every other job can see a substantial benefit by using another subjob.


I only use COR/NIN in merit for pulling.

What would be the purpose of COR/NIN with M.Kris? Damage mitigation?

I guess I'm just pretty used to the 2 bard setup. Its easier to find a relic brd/whm than another competent cor.



Damage mitigation and DoT. With /dnc I suppose you are alleviating a lot of the burden you place on the mage by helping with healing. TP gain with m. kris/joyeuse isn't that far behind tp gain with just m. kris. Joyeuse typically means enough of an acc cut that you are going to be using sushi. Joyeuse acc with sushi on /nin should be low 80s, and m. kris acc should be capped at 95%.

You have ~1.9 swings a round with m. kris at 95% acc and 1.45 swings around with joyeuse at ~82% acc, 4.8 base TP a swing which is 14.37 TP a round. Total delay is 332.8 so you end up at 2.59 TP/sec.

In your setup you were at 80% acc with just m. kris and 5.2 TP a hit. That gives 7.9 TP a round. Delay is 192, so your TP gain is 2.47. If you were /rng it would be 85% acc which is 2.62. I would say for all intents and purposes these numbers are roughly equal.

Edit: here I mean 2.62 ~ 2.59 as it differs by only 1%

DoT with kris/joy is 10.1 and DoT with just m. kris (giving you /rng for 85% acc) is 4.25 (I've also given you 2 swings a round average with m. kris opposed to my 1.9 just to be generous).

This does not take meat into consideration, obviously you will have higher damage. You probably have 350-360 base attack, with minuet IV thats 420 attack. Coeurl subs will be reaching their cap, but lets still just say they are adding 20% damage to everything you do (trying to round up for your sake).

Your melee damage was: 35,138

Boosting your acc from 80 to 85% brings it to: 37,334

That means without subs it would have been: 31,111

However with roughly equal attack joyeuse/kris combo should do ~ 2.35 the DoT which is: 73,110

This is a gain of 41,999 melee damage.

Now for weaponskills. I'm going to be extra generous here and say that you could weaponskill 15% more often if you were /rng because you wouldn't be using sambas (drain samba two lasts 90 second, so you shouldn't have to be doing it but after every third weaponskill or so). At this point I'm excluding barrage.

Now your total weaponskill damage was: 121933

Giving you 15% more weaponskills makes your ws damage: 140,222

The extra TP gain going from 80 to 85% acc brings your ws damage to: 148,985 (this is because you can ws more if you get tp faster)

However that is with subs, without subs you'd be at: 124,154

This is a loss of 24,831 damage for /nin. So on /nin you gain 41,999 from melee and lose 24,831 on weaponskills. Thats a bonus of 17,169 in favor of /nin.

Now there are two more issues to consider. First of all will barrage compensate for the 17,169 damage? It might along with the extra weaponskills. It does take about 7 seconds to fire off sharpshot/barrage so in truth you're probably only gaining half a weaponskill worth of tp since you could be meleeing during that time.

The bigger question for me is what your weaponskill accuracy is. In these numbers I'm assuming capped ws acc. If your accuracy is sitting down at 85% with with /rng using subs then the comparison isn't even close and /nin wins because it will be capped up at 95%. If you are up at 90%+ with meat (which I doubt) then it comes down to barrage. Even supposing barrage added on the 17,169 damage deficit that means best case scenario you are equal damage on /rng and are using more of the mage's mp.

Just to compare if your weaponskills were at 80% with /dnc and 85% with /rng. Then this increases your ws damage again to 158,296. On the other hand if you are at 80% on /dnc and 85% on /rng then /nin with sushi would be at 95%. This would bring the /nin ws damage to 147432. Making /nin only down by 10,864 damage in weaponskills and up 41,999 in melee.

Barrage would have to compensate for 31,135 damage. I am very skeptical that /rng can keep up with /nin based on the numbers you provide. The other option is using sushi on /rng but a lot of that ends up being wasted. Not only that but you'll lose by a lot more in the DoT department and the TP gain won't be THAT much faster.

Edit: I've had m. kris and joyeuse since before corsair came out. I've partied many times on /rng, on /war and on /nin. I've run the numbers every way I can and on colibri /nin just seems to come out on top. Its not to say the others are that far behind, but they also usually involve death. I know people have suddenly gained an aversion to believing /nin can be a DD sub (in part because of the 2 handed update), but in the right situation it can be and at the same time offer damage mitigation. I still like /rng for mamool because I don't get hate as much and my accuracy feel lousy even with sushi at times.

I really do look forward to trying out /dnc. I think with m. kris I could really help a lot in those parties that need a bit extra healing and I'll do my part to hold back and not get hate. But when that is not needed, unless someone can provide me numbers proving otherwise, /nin seems to offer the best option (assuming you have m. kris and joyeuse).

Edited, Jan 8th 2009 4:27pm by Kwontos

Edited, Jan 8th 2009 4:50pm by Kwontos

I was under the assumption you would have run the numbers and had determined that meat was optimal. If meat in your situation > sushi in your situation and sushi on /nin > meat on /rng then clearly /nin with sushi wins.

I have no problem running these numbers assuming 95% accuracy. I need to use actual accuracy numbers because sword has inherently lower accuracy. I'll go with 10% less, in my case I have 19 less skill with suppa on, I'm not sure what your merits look like, but for me it should be 19 less skill.

M. Kris on /rng
TP/sec = 2.93 TP/sec
DPS = 4.51

M. Kris/joyeuse on /nin
TP/sec = 2.62 (I am using 85% accuracy on joyeuse here, that what I should have in my setup)
The tricky part is DPS. I'm going to go ahead and give joyeuse a 5% damage penalty due to the lack of attack. I am down 19 attack which with minuet on will be < 5% of my total attack.
DPS = 60*((35*1.45*.85*.95)+(8*1.9*.95))/332.8 = 9.99

So the /rng setup gives 1.118 times as many weaponskills and the /nin setup gives 2.215 times as much DoT.

Let D be the % of your damage on /rng coming from DoT and W the % of your damage on /rng coming from WS. Then D+W=1

Now lets examine when /nin damage is equal to /rng damager (ignoring barrage so far). This will happen when

D*2.215+W/1.118 = D+W = 1

Solving this system of equations gives:

D = 8%
W = 92%

So in order for these to equalize out your weaponskills would have to do 92% of your total damage. There is no way that that is the case. In the numbers you provided W = 72.36% which isn't really close to 92%. DoT is just too strong.

I realize that you had to spend TP on various steps and what not, so suppose on rng your W (barring barrage) was 80% and D was 20%. Then under the same situations on /nin you'd do 115.86% of your /rng damage. Thats 15% higher. I cannot believe that barrage every 5 minutes will contribute 15% extra damage. This is also being fairly generout claiming that your WS damage will be 80% of your total damage. I have a feeling something closer to 75% is in order, but I may be wrong.

Just for kicks at 75% of your damage coming from weaponskills /nin is giving a 22.46% increase in total damage. Which is completely insurmountable by barrage.

Edit: 75% is probably an underestimate on my part. Going ahead and running the numbers with 85% of your damage coming from weaponskills on rng (just to try and overestimate) you end up with ~ 9% more damage from /nin. This is a reasonable amount for barrage to compensate for. It would probably be close (assuming your ws damage could be pushed up to 85%).



I should have thought of that. I was looking for the ws column. That makes perfect sense though.

That would bump your /rng accuracy up to 91% or so. Which means with /rng and staying on top of barrage and using meat you might do as much as /nin, except you lose damage mitigation which I have a feeling in at least a couple instances will cause you to hold back a little bit.

Edit (continued): My point is that /nin is just as viable of a DD option if you have the right gear. On top of that it does offer damage mitigation and might let you ws a bit more freely which is a bonus. Not to mention its actaully a bonus to other DD if you ws at the start of the fight. If no other DD have shadows then there is nobody better for the mob to be on than the cor. It means they will take less damage, are less likely to get tickled, etc.

Edited, Jan 8th 2009 6:50pm by Kwontos

I know, computing barrage damage is difficult, its not as straightforward as everything else. But it would have a lot of ground to cover. The other thing to keep in mind is that the process of barrage takes time, JA's add a small delay in and then you have to shoot your gun (its definitely worthwhile, but you aren't meleeing at the same time). When you add this up probably only gained around 1/2-2/3 of a weaponskill. Once you're using sushi barrage is really all /rng is offering and it is hard to fit it into the formulas.

The most difficult aspect is haste and rolls. For instance if you have double march and sam roll then you're weaponskilling every 15-20 seconds. So barrage adds 1 ws in every 12-15 which is not that substantial. If you have a slow puller, aren't getting hasted, no marches, etc then barrage has a much bigger impact. This makes it impossible to directly weigh. But we can ask what % we think is reasonable for barrage to add. I don't see it adding more than 10-15%, which best case scenario is going to even things out with /nin assuming you can go all out and you aren't hurting the mages mp.

I really love how people get into micro-managing their damage. Geez, people, its a game.

There is enough chaos and randomness occuring in a meripo, I imagine it hardly matters if one setup is slightly superior to another. One WC break by a melee will throw everything off anyway.

But its fun to see you guys go into the mental masturbation about this stuff. You guys must be real chick magnets at parties lol.

So I think we have kind of a disconnect here.

1) This was my first party with M.Kris; I was wearing my haste setup to find out exactly what my accuracy with /DNC would be (I was also using Box Step instead of Quick Step, for the same reason). If I were /RNG in accuracy gear, you'd need to add another 26.5 accuracy to my total, putting me at ~93% ACC with meat. It bears mentioning that I was also using my STR/RATK set for slug, not my RACC set.

2) I specifically said to compare single-wield /NIN to dual-wield /NIN to isolate the net difference between SW and DW. If they are close, then there's no point in using /NIN for damage mitigation when /DNC will give me an accuracy bonus trait and increase damage mitigation for the entire party.

3) I think comparing /RNG to /NIN in situations where the accuracy cap is exceeded (due to sushi) is somewhat disingenuous; you're throwing away /RNG's accuracy trait. The more relevant comparison in such a scenario would seem to be /NIN to /WAR, and given that we're talking about COR in a situation where healing isn't an issue (the third support job, be it COR/DNC or BRD/WHM, should be able to handle the extra MP drain), the only reason to use /NIN would seem to be a taru-specific concern about being oneshotted.

Remember, we aren't really talking about replacing /DNC with /NIN here; /DNC enables other party members to discard Utsusemi and /NIN has nothing to compete with that. Effectively, we are talking about /NIN vs. /WAR and /RNG, and in a situation where COR/DNC is picking up all the healing slack (I have partied with KC RNG/WAR without MP issues), COR/WAR would seem to walk over COR/NIN in capped accuracy scenarios.

Edited, Jan 8th 2009 4:39pm by redvenomweb

So what was the original topic of this thread again lol j/k. Some good discussion in here.

Yeah, RVW rocks.

This is true.




How much acc are you looking to need to cap it without useing sushi?

I believe you need 397 ACC to cap against LV82 G.colibri.

256+16 dagger skill = 264 ACC
66 DEX (Hume) = 33 ACC
Accuracy Up I & II (/RNG) = 22 ACC

= 319 ACC

78 accuracy from gear is a pretty stiff order.

There are a few things wrong with that Acc list.

Hollow instead of Accurate Earring, 4 > 2
Ancient Torque instead of PCC or PCA, 11 > 10
Skadi's Cuirie alone has a total of 14 Acc, not 10, ahead of all other options
Commodore Bottes +1 come to 8.5 Acc, not 7
Enkidu's Mittens over HQ War Gloves, 7 > 6

So, you're underestimating maximum Acc by 10.5, it seems.

Also, Suppa won't work with RVW's Dagger example. Diabolos's Earring would probably be the Acc choice instead. Tack that on and you're at 80 + 13.5 Acc (so 93.5).

Edited, Jan 9th 2009 2:55am by Carrilei