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Okay, someone please explain NM soloingFollow

#1 Jan 07 2011 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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Alright, I come from the land of PUP. In the land of pup I target NM's, max evasion gear, punch them, and the whm automaton heals me. Simple, easy, effective, fun.

Now, I've been getting neurotically addicted to smn. I knew I'd like the job, but I didn't realize it would be digital crack. I've had my learning moments, and my save-the-day moments. And, everybody loves Odin.



The one thing I have not figured out is hard to solo the hard stuff. The best I've come up with is putting Shiva out, use frost armor, use a rage pact, and let the nm wear it down. Before it dies, run waaaaaaaaay away, and then resummon Shiva upon death. Shiva attacks because I have agro, and the NM hits me 1-3 times until Shiva can reclaim hate. Stoneskin/blink/cure/repeat. If I'm not in abyssea, replace Shiva with Carbuncle.

Problem is, not only does this take a long time, it isn't nearly as effective as my pup. My pup tore through Charybdis the other day like it was a joke. I can solo 3x VT's at a time using the cloak and dagger atma in abyssea. Is there some trick to hard-core summoner NM killing that I haven't figured out yet?

For the record: summoning magic skill is somewhere between 240 and 250. I'm working on it.

Thanks in advance.
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#2 Jan 07 2011 at 3:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's not really one single way to solo on SMN, but the most important thing to understand is hate mechanics. Summoners roll with very low hate. We have to in order for a fresh avatar to get hate off us. The thing that distinguishes a good SMN from a bad one in solo or pet-burn type scenarios is often their management of enmity.

That being said, a few important things to know:
1. Enmity generation occurs based on how close your target is to anything that your spell/ability might build enmity on. The maximum range is roughly 30 yalms for most monsters (some NMs seem to have extended ranges but it's very rare). What this means is that, say for example you are 15 yalms from the monster your avatar is fighting and you cast Stoneskin. This will generate enmity. Now say you're 35 yalms away and cast Stoneskin, no enmity. Here's where it can get tricky... let's say you are 35 yalms away, but your friend is 15 yalms away and you Cure III your friend. This will generate enmity because even though you're far enough away, they are not. It's the target that matters.

How does this apply to SMN solo? Well for one thing, when you run away to resummon your avatar, you need to FINISH casting your summon before the monster gets within about 30 yalms from you. If you can do this, you will generate no new enmity. If you do this consistently, your avatar will have no trouble pulling hate from you in the first swing, even if the swing is a miss! Secondly, it's important to run away before curing yourself or casting Stoneskin. Don't stand just out of AOE range and start buffing yourself or you will generate enmity. If you build up too much enmity, you will have a very hard time keeping hate on your avatar which, as you discovered, is key to SMN soloing.



That being said, there's really two key ways to solo on SMN:
1. Hate-free kite. Basically you just summon & run away. Wait for avatar to die, repeat. Very simple. Absolutely essential to keep enmity at or close to zero for this. One mis-summon (spell finishes too late) can make it hard for the avatar to pull hate off you for the next 4 or 5 resummons. Carby is often used for this, but if you can get other avatars for free they work better. Fenrir works the best as he attacks faster than other avatars and does the same damage.

2. BP kiting. Basically same as hate-free kite, except that every time you resummon, when the monster approaches, you BP it to do damage and stick hate to your avatar again. Then you run away and wait for it to die, or release it when your BP timer is almost up. This can be risky because using a Blood Pact generates hate on the BP's target, and it's not an insignificant amount of hate. This is counter to the SMN goal of minimal enmity. However, it can speed up the battle by several orders of magnitude. This is the preferred way to solo, if it can be safely accomplished. The other way, as you discovered, is dreadfully slow. A really good tip for this method is to Assault after you BP. Many people Assault before BP but the BP locks their avatar in place and Assault has a 10-second cooldown. BP first (when the monster is about 15-20 yalms away), then Assault after and your avatar won't stand there looking dumb while they ready their BP.
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#3 Jan 07 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh just another little addendum, lately I've really been enjoying soloing with Garuda. What's nice about her is that she has both a really good BP (Predator Claws) and a self-healing BP (Whispering Wind). This can be a nice safety net in case you use Pred Claws (thus building enmity on yourself) and Garuda is dying before your BP:Rage is up again. If you let her die and resummon, you won't be able to get hate off yourself until the BP is up again, so you can use Whispering Wind or Aerial Armor to keep her alive longer.

As you get better at juggling the NM around and keeping it focused on your avatar instead of yourself, you can do harder and harder NMs. I've been doing stuff lately that people are saying is impossible to solo. The other day I solo'd Tunga, the chigoe NM that spams Break/Breakga. I also have taken out Mx'ghrah quite a few times, that's the T2 VNM in Abyssea Misareaux, and that thing is a complete nightmare. Since you're on Asura, I'd be happy to take you out sometime and show you the ropes. It's really just about getting the rhythm down.
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#4 Jan 07 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you, I learned a lot from these posts. Definately up for duoing whenever.
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Pandemonium rest in peace.
#5 Jan 11 2011 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Also once resummoned using a magical BP can easily get hate off u quickly so u can run. Its hit and run and resummon its nice to get a PC off but at times windblade can save u from a smack in the face.
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#6 Jan 15 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Whilst Summoners can solo very well on their own you can get safer, quicker and more consistent kills if you team up with other Summoners. I fell that it's in the duo/trio category that Summoner really begins to shine as a low man way of taking down really tough NM's.

Thanks to the information Pergatory posted on Enmity I've managed to tally up some successful NM kills with my partner who just got Summoner to 90. We've got 6/8 AF3 head seals for her from Aggressor Antlion, and obtained a Caller's Pendant and Cirque Sash from Ironclad Severer (w/o the use of Grand Fall).

Summoner may be a bit slower than PUP on certain NM's (I play PUP and SMN myself) but there are NM's that suit each job. I really wouldn't like to take down Ironclad Severer on my PUP and Gnawtooth Gary would be excruciatingly slow and messy to kill on my SMN.
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#7 Jan 16 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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Mangotastic wrote:
but there are NM's that suit each job. I really wouldn't like to take down Ironclad Severer on my PUP and Gnawtooth Gary would be excruciatingly slow and messy to kill on my SMN.


This is the biggie - I'm a BST main, but there's some stuff where BST shines, some stuff where SMN shines and so on - my pets on BST are hardier, but on SMN I'm not limited by a call beast timer or running finding something new to fling at a mob. There's also a few differences in terms of when sneak does/doesn't wear as well - but they're more minor.
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#8 Jan 21 2011 at 11:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks for the help all. Just last night I soloed my first NM on smn: Tonberry Lieje. He didn't drop the belt, and I did take a few hits, but I got the win against a nm that can fire off Ancient Magic and has perma-blaze spikes.

What I enjoyed the most was that I wasn't just watching my timers, spamming ja's. I was moving around, playing the map as well as the NM. Really fun. Now I need to get my merits where I want them so I can take out more NMs.

Groups of 3 or 4 were watching for a while, hoping I'd die so they could claim the NM. They quickly gave up, nobody doubted that a single summoner could kill off what they came as a party to take out. Now that's something all in itself.

Can't want to try my next NM.

Peace.
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Thydonon - PUP99, SAM99, WAR99, DNC99, BST99, SMN99, BLM99
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Pandemonium rest in peace.
#9 Jan 21 2011 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Groups of 3 or 4 were watching for a while, hoping I'd die so they could claim the NM. They quickly gave up, nobody doubted that a single summoner could kill off what they came as a party to take out. Now that's something all in itself.


I've never had any luck in killing anything that doesn't cast AM really. I'm too chicken to run up and BP on fast casting spells, or on mobs that never cast. I tried to solo Lieje once (before you had more than one atma) and it was a bit too risky solo at 80. I believe I got it to about 50% before hate started to become an issue, where I decided to ***** it and teleport out, getting killed at about 80% teleport so I didn't exit, and then a friend showed up just minutes after so I gave it another try and it was so easy with someone just distracting the NM a bit so you don't get pummeled.

I also made an attempt to solo the pot in Grauberg, but due to it casting multiple types of elements, my pet seemed to die very fast (also from spikes). I had it down to about 80% before a group of 2 asked me to team up since they wanted to kill it too. Later I duoed it with a BST also, and it was so easy. It makes a huge difference if you have to be at 30' range and run all over the place, or if you can just calmly kill the mob.
#10 Jan 24 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Tonberry NM is tough. I have Vayu Staff +2 (so -15 on BP). I cast Garuda pop Predator Claws and WW. Run as far as I can, rinse and repeat. Have temp items in menu to use if needed. IV buffs from Light Spirit. Is risky, but can be done. Would like to have more HP gear and protection for this fight.
#11 Jan 24 2011 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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543 posts
Killed it again. I've found a way that, while not fast, is easy.

Leviathan only.
MM and Mounted Hero atma, although MM + anything will be enough.

Put Leviathan on the nm, sneak/invis, run to conflux 8. When leviathan dies, resummon, kite north/south with the north most point of the kiting being by the conflux. Leviathan is perfect for this nm, one flare 2 he took only did 53 damage. Some of the NM moves will reset hate, so you have to fulltime prot/shell/stoneskin/blink/barfire because you will take a few hits.

If it resets hate, just run towards it and as you pass it hit the Grand Fall macro, and that should be enough to get hate back on the avatar. Once I started using Mounted Hero I began spamming Grand Fall and occasionally Spring Water just to make the fight easier and faster. Leviathan owns this mob.

0/5 on drop. SE loves summoner. That's why they made our nm lottery pop with 200+ blaze spikes. Because they love us. >.>

Good luck.

Edited, Jan 25th 2011 10:49am by Thydonon

Edited, Jan 27th 2011 9:56am by Thydonon
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Thydonon - PUP99, SAM99, WAR99, DNC99, BST99, SMN99, BLM99
Asura
Pandemonium rest in peace.
#12 Jan 25 2011 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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I guess I'm a bit more suicidal than most SMN on this forum lol...

I solo him the same way I fought him when we trio'd him Thydonon, relentless Pred Claws until it dies. I fight him in that little triangular area behind the tonberries. There's just barely enough room to kite a caster there if you're good. Every once in a while he lands a spell on me, but I always kill him before he kills me (I only resummon about 10 times to land 7 or 8 BPs and he's toast, the enmity from using Pred Claws isn't a big deal when Garuda crits for 190 on most swings and since he's a caster, even if she doesn't get hate you just run and eventually he'll stop to cast and she'll get hate back). He's never landed a melee swing and only the occasional spell which, assuming you have HP and good merit abyssites, shouldn't be a problem. I don't even use shell or anything, too lazy... although I did use Convert once for about 1500 HP (my new favorite trick in a pinch).
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#13 Jan 26 2011 at 6:47 PM Rating: Default
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Always try to pair up nms with thier elemental weakness when selecting your avatar. Some avatars are crap yes. But until you understand what you can get away with this is the best approach.

IE dont use garuda on Bakka till you know what you are doing. Dont use shiva either. Something weird about curing and doing no dmg to bakka... I use Ifrit and he is cake.

I also use Physical BPs unless hate is an issue. Drop Mounted champion use MM RR and VV. What you will see is that you will do 2-4k dmg vs 700-2k. This speeds the fight up tremdouosly.

Another tip is drop /rdm and go with /whm. IF you get in a bad situation you can cast cure 4 and almost cure yourself full. Always run far away after hate is established and recast blink and SS to make sure you are fresh.

If mp is an issue you may want to sub rdm. I just use a martello though in those rare instances I had bad fight. Just remember doing so will make nm release.



Edited, Jan 26th 2011 7:49pm by Fumikuu
#14 Jan 27 2011 at 4:20 AM Rating: Good
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Pergatory wrote:
although I did use Convert once for about 1500 HP (my new favorite trick in a pinch).

Oh god yes. Reverse converting has saved my life so many times.
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#15 Jan 27 2011 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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I had been wondernig if smn/whm would be best for soloing in abyssea. You can divine seal + cure 4 as often as you can convert, and I'd never convert to get mp when facing a NM if I could possibly avoid it.

As for using physical pacts... I don't have RR or VV yet. Those two, along with Baying Moon, are on the short list. But until I pick them up I'll probably have to stick to magic blood pacts. For now I suppose I could drop mounted and use kirin, that would give me another 40 int and boosts magic accuracy as well, which is a good amount of damage on the magic rages.
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Thydonon - PUP99, SAM99, WAR99, DNC99, BST99, SMN99, BLM99
Asura
Pandemonium rest in peace.
#16 Jan 27 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
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While that's true, and /WHM is generally safer for many reasons including Cure IV, DS+Cure IV doesn't touch Convert for a once-in-10-mins save-your-life ability. You can use Convert while running away screaming bloody murder, whereas DS + Cure IV can only be used once you're already safely far away from the monster and have a few seconds to cast without some monster breathing down your neck.
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