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#1 Nov 10 2009 at 7:42 PM Rating: Default
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I'm seeing a lot of testing going on for the avatar favors but I can't figure out whether or not the response is very positive.

How satisfied are Summoners with the favor update?

My account isn't activated right now, so I can't test it for myself... but if this update makes us really useful and adds a new element to the job, I'd resubscribe in an instant. I'd really love it if I could play my Summoner more often - I feel like I levelled it for nothing, though I really like the job and controlling my avatars.

Kind of surprised they didn't add a new avatar just as "icing on the cake" (as another poster said) to their big SMN update, but it's all good.

Anyway, all updates are appreciated - but how huge is this one?
Are we finally going to be wanted/needed in more endgame situations?
From the looks of it, it seems more like it's meant to help SMNs in EXP 10~75...

Opinions?!

Edited, Nov 10th 2009 8:44pm by Poubelle
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#2 Nov 10 2009 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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This update wont be a cause for people to invite you to XP parties. If thats what you're chasing. I can see SMN taking the spot of a BRD or a RDM in a BLM party, be it Manaburn or at events, though. So you have that going for us.

To sum up your questions;
It's small.
Probably not.
The Favor is lv55, so even if it was meant to help SMN in XP parties it's only 55+.
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#3 Nov 11 2009 at 5:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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*Won't really help get merit PT invites over BRD/COR/RDM.

*Won't add extra damage from HNM (unless you want to use SMN for extra MAB for BLMs, or double attack for melee, but why would you give up a slot for effectively one cor roll when you can just get a cor and get 4? (since damage is gimped))

*Won't help soloing, except for possibly easier to get free Avatars.

*Would help for minor events e.g. Dynamis,Limbus,Nyzul where SMN plays semi DD, semi support roles.

tl;dr No, Favor's are limited to pretty much be party-only beneficial effects, and since one "roll" is worse than two rolls, I can't see people wanting SMN for merits, which limits the main purpose I think SE had in mind.

Nice addition, but it doesn't chance pretty much anything.
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#4 Nov 11 2009 at 5:46 AM Rating: Good
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Well idk about SMN because I don't actually have it leveled past 4, but speaking from an impartial party leader perspective (I make 95% of my exp parties) I've always considered SMN roughly equal with how I'd invite any other mage. Well, higher than SCH because they could haste. Now I'm even more wanting to have one while leveling BLU, if it's possible to hold Diabolos out for a relative while during battles.

Well I guess you SMN's can tell me what you'll be able to do actually, will it be possible to hold out Ramuh or Diabolos or Ifrit decently while exp'ing, enough for the buffs to be worthwhile? Or does it drain too much MP?

I'm not sure where this perspective of "SMN sucks and we don't want them in our parties" actually comes from really. Is this how it is on other servers? I mean... this may sound blunt but I look at mages for A. Haste B. Bit of cures. SMN (well I've felt) also has C. Couple of buffs + own damage. Now it has even more buffs.

Am I overestimating you guys? You seem like a great job to have in exp parties to me :/
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#5 Nov 11 2009 at 6:13 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure what it's like at 55, but at 75, once Diabolos's Favor is at full potency (3MP for me, unfortunately), Diabolos is free with Pluto's Staff, Evoker's Ring, Yinyang Robe, Nashira Gages, and Evoker's Pigaches +1.
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#6 Nov 11 2009 at 6:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Am I overestimating you guys? You seem like a great job to have in exp parties to me :/


I think what you're overestimating is the number of summoners who actually can play the job well and understand that its not a job that is meant to be the best at anything. Like you said a little bit of A,B, and C is what summoner brings to the table. You can't play all parts of the field equally and have fantastical super powers too. This update just brought the buffing and healing side of summoner up to par with the damage side of the job.

To be honest ever since I started playing this job the most adamant enemies of summoners have been summoners themselves.
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#7 Nov 11 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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The update helped, but it didn't take us our of our tier of where we are in the game. We're on that very line to where this update could of helped so much.

This update was suppose to make it so SMN's can summon, keep avatars out and pt buff the party. As a result we're weakened in damage, but we're increasing party damage.

This update did one good thing and made it so Favors help the party. Double attack on a group of melee's? With DoT, lower level BP damage and the occasional TP pact or 70, adding in we can toss out some helping cures is great.

The bad part is we can't do it ourselves. Our "focus" is flexability, and we should be able to do it on our own not with the help of a refresher.

So it comes down to, if you have a well geared SMN, a refresher and an open slot for an endgame event..why not?

This update was a start, we just need a few more -perpet to make our job worth taking up. They have a second chance at not **** us over with the mid-november update. Let's hope the evolith system will put in avatar perpet cost - on items that we normally couldn't put things in before...earrings? waist? legs? neck? mid level perpet - in these slots would help the smn job out a lot and give S.E. what they were aiming for.

The power is there, the ability to maintain isn't at least not until the 70's and with a refresher.
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#8 Nov 11 2009 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I played about 2 hours with my SMN after work.

At first it seemed lame, but the more I think about it, the better the adjustment seems. I think the only reason it looks bad is because of the reduced rage damage. Then again, NO ONE likes that kind of thing.

While it won't specifically help us get any more exp parties than we already do, it does increase our support role more than anything.

Because of the adjustment, we now have a virtually free Diabolos, an with the 317+ smn magic skill, the most potent AoE refresh in the game. Since I am the only SMN in existance that has neither AF feet+1 nor the Nashira Gages, I'll still pay the 1/tick perpetuation. Which is not too bad, that can easily be maintained with sublimation and aspir.

Which brings this to another point. SCH sub will be now more important than anything, since that sub will be able to provide the SMN with the best MP in the long run. That sub will also enable the SMN to keep out avatars longer in the process.

Another thought tha came to mind while I was thinking of replying to posts. Since we have now the best refresh in the game (4/tick without recasting or rerolling, and being continuous AoE for 2 hours), we will probably become VERY useful in raids. Virtually free Diabolos, continuous refresh, with Dream Shroud, and perhaps some damage.

Or get out the Carbuncle (mitts have been fixed) and have a continuous Regen effect on the melée/tank party while spamming Carbuncle's healing wards.

For the situational big boss fights, the SMN can just summon some other avatar for the buff, and even with 5/tick perpetuation or less, that avatar will last quite a while until SMNs' MP comes even close to running dry, assuming the SMN is not spamming something else in the process.

And another thought that came to mind. BRD sub. Would the ballad from BRD sub not stack with Diabolos' refresh? Any SMN with 317 smn magic skill or over will automatically get him free, and the party would have themselves a +5/tick refresh in the process. That can include their own personal refresh, RDM refresh, COR refresh, etc. But either way, this adjustment has made the SMN the most potent refresher of all.

317 smn magic+ for 4/tick refresh. Otherwise 3/tick.
318 smn magic+ for 15/tick regen. Otherwise 12/tick.

Also, keep in mind, I am writing this post in respects to level 75.

Also, keep in mind, that activating favors is OPTIONAL. (I had to actually catch myself writing a post yesterday. I was under the pretense that it was forced.)
#9 Nov 11 2009 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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the most potent AoE refresh in the game.


Technically COR has that title, with Evoker's Roll, XI, with a SMN in the PT. Ours however is a lot easier to not only get, but maintain too.

Endgame, I can't see it changing much. CORs can give Evoker's and a more potent form of our Dream Shroud via Wizard's Roll, and can then either do a small amount of damage or curing, or drop party and give another PT two more rolls.

SMNs would only be able to do the Evoker's, along with minor damage or curing.
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#10 Nov 11 2009 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Am I overestimating you guys? You seem like a great job to have in exp parties to me :/


Simply put. We run out of MP and need to rest. RDM, WHM, SCH will get you longer chains. I of course were able to keep up on fairly long chains back in the days, but doing that means NO AVATARS, which means this whole update changed nothing since it would prevent me from resting back MP when the sponging is low and it gives me a MP drain on keeping them out.

Besides I think it is more fun to be a WHM and main heal + drop buffs than to be a SMN and main heal + drop buffs, simply because that is what a WHM does, while it is only 25% of what the SMN could be doing.

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To be honest ever since I started playing this job the most adamant enemies of summoners have been summoners themselves.


No, party members are the worst enemy of the SMN job. I can't remember a single day since 2004 that I dared to play my way without fearing party members would riot, kick me, black list me, and slowly make me hated by the whole community.

I doubt any MNK, BLM, BST or any other job ever had to fear getting black listed for simply playing their jobs how they enjoy it. SMN though is the job that you either play the way you don't want, or you don't play at all.
#11 Nov 11 2009 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I am not very knowledgable on COR, but how high can a COR get the refresh? I thought it's highest was 4/tick. Does COR sub BRD in that instance where it acts a refresher?

I only remember having a COR in my BLM party once, and I do not really pay attention to someone else's performance, unless I happen to notice it (or the lack of it).

Does BRD as a sub job with ballad even stack with the SMN's favor?
#12 Nov 11 2009 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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FinalPlay wrote:
I am not very knowledgable on COR, but how high can a COR get the refresh? I thought it's highest was 4/tick. Does COR sub BRD in that instance where it acts a refresher?

I only remember having a COR in my BLM party once, and I do not really pay attention to someone else's performance, unless I happen to notice it (or the lack of it).

Does BRD as a sub job with ballad even stack with the SMN's favor?


If the COR hits a XI roll, and either has:
*A SMN in the PT OR
*Has the relic hat and hit the 33% chance of rolling like the main job is in the pt

the COR can give out a 5 mp/tic refresh.

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#13 Nov 11 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
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That is so true, I started it in 2004, and always worried about how I was judged. My SMN never gets merit party invites, and will not now.

And honestly, since I gave up putting up my flag as SMN, I will not start it now. But SMN are being underestimated, not over, in my opinion. I can heal just fine, and since I'd be using Carbuncle, would also not get hate as a result of it.

I think people simply refuse to work with a SMN. My own LS leader told me in his own words that he would not take a SMN over a RDM, ever. So, it is just the mindset of the people that make us SMNs so sad. And emotionally empty inside....

The more SMNs become 'outcasts,' the more I will play it.
#14 Nov 11 2009 at 11:45 AM Rating: Default
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Meh!! COR should have never gotten refresh anyway!!! *wink

But, but, but SMN can still do blood pacts! :). Or COR just joins Mage party along with SMN, and have Diabolos favor *AND* Evoker's roll going!! Yes?

That way, the SMN will even get a refreh himself, ONTOP of Diabolos. Easier time to Nether blast, or do Dream shroud ONTOP of the magic damage roll, whatever you may call that one.
#15 Nov 11 2009 at 11:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd say that the people saying Favors don't change anything are simply referring to "SMN's situation." That is, the rate at which we get invited to parties or get asked to go to some events.

However, simply speaking of the SMN job itself, I'd say that the update changed quite a bit. It adds whole new ways to play the job. I'm loving it so far, and I'm still missing a few key pieces of gear to take full advantage of it.

I think SMN's would have to show what they can do now before the situation changes for them. And I don't see that happening soon, or even ever. It's similar to the whole lolzpup thing.
#16 Nov 11 2009 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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FinalPlay wrote:
we will probably become VERY useful in raids. Virtually free Diabolos, continuous refresh, with Dream Shroud, and perhaps some damage.


More useful than before, surely; very useful is debatable. We're only doing 1 MP a tick more than what several other jobs can already accomplish, but unlike the other jobs (COR, BRD, RDM), our utility essentially ends there. BRD can also spam sleeps and slow; COR can also add damage, and maintain more than just refresh; RDM can refresh as well as haste and enfeeble.

The update was better than nothing, yes, but it really just elevated the utility of summoner to "in many cases still somewhat inferior to X, but certainly better than before," which is disappointing; I was quite excited about the Favours, and no MMO's "huge job update" should be so highly debatable in its improved utility...

FinalPlay wrote:
Or get out the Carbuncle (mitts have been fixed) and have a continuous Regen effect on the melée/tank party while spamming Carbuncle's healing wards.


I have to say that this seems like a situation seen through too much of a positivist lens. The regen is barely more than SCH's easy-to-maintain Regen II, and even when "spamming healing wards" (if the verb "to spam" constitutes about one cast every 50-or-so seconds), leaves SMN a rather lacklustre healer.

There's a reason a COR doesn't give dancer's roll to the melee party, or why BRD doesn't bother with paeon; in this scenario, the Summoner in question justifies a place in the group about as much as a Blue Mage who does little more than sword-melee while tossing out a periodic Healing Breeze, unfortunately.
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#17 Nov 11 2009 at 1:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, avatars can still attack? I have not yet heard much if mages still got the Diabolos' favor while it is assaulting a mob. Same thing with Carbuncle. Minimum damage, I am aware, however it is better than nothing. While a continuous Regen may not sound impressive, it is continuous, and automatically AoE, and SMN/SCH could just manually cast his own Regen II spells, and still Cure III.

Either way, this was not meant to counter argue or anything like that, but like you said, what we can do now is definately better than what we were able to do before. I won't say that we became Gods or anything, although I wish, Summoners would deserve to be Gods with all the **** they had to go through just to get to be what they are at 75.
#18 Nov 11 2009 at 4:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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shadowkind wrote:
understand that its not a job that is meant to be the best at anything.
That's kind of why nobody invites us.
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#19 Nov 11 2009 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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jlejeune wrote:
shadowkind wrote:
understand that its not a job that is meant to be the best at anything.
That's kind of why nobody invites us.


Yeah, pretty much. XD

When looking to fill a space, leaders rarely look to fill half of several roles at once with one member, and the other half of said roles with another; it's simply easier to grab (for example) one dedicated tank, one dedicated healer, one dedicated support, and a few dedicated DDs, everyone knows what they must do and they'll each (ideally) preform those few actions well.
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"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#20 Nov 11 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think in an exp situation smn is more restrictive than in end game, because I haven't experienced any problems like that in end game, just in exp parties these days which are far different from the ones going on when i was leveling the job. The favors update seemed to focus on the last 20 levels of play. But the last 20 levels is when smn starts first developing (boobs) anyway.
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#21 Nov 11 2009 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Meh, SMN still, and will, always be one of the most beautiful jobs of the game. And with them idle buffs, will make OTHER jobs be even better. Well, if you get my drift.

BRD can cast Paeon, and can spot heal, but SMN has an *automatic and continuous* (aura) Regen II, can spot heal, and have Carbuncle heal ontop of that. And do damage. Every 50 seconds. DON'T LAUGH!!

COR can refresh, but SMN gets an *automatic and continuous* (aura) Refresh, can buff, and do damage. Every 50 seconds. Don't laugh now! I mean it!! And SMN can spot heal ontop of that.

No job can provide a double attack bonus. Is that right? Point is, we are Summoners, not strict support classes like BRD and COR.

Someone said, we were not meant to be the best at everything, but we are definately GOOD! And... So beautiful.
#22 Nov 11 2009 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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shadowkind wrote:
I think in an exp situation smn is more restrictive than in end game, because I haven't experienced any problems like that in end game, just in exp parties these days which are far different from the ones going on when i was leveling the job. The favors update seemed to focus on the last 20 levels of play. But the last 20 levels is when smn starts first developing (boobs) anyway.


I feel like your post is one of those cases where the poster begins telling some sort of story and gradually (thanks to a couple of guys, possibly who were up to no-good) begins to weave Fresh Prince of Bel Air references throughout until, by the end, you realise that you've just been reading something different than what you expected. At any rate, I'd rate that up twice if I could but in West Philadelphia, born and raised...
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"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#23 Nov 11 2009 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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Just curious, the augment list posted on BG contains things that can be done with the evolith/synergy system, on it is avatar perpet -1. Do you think it will be possible we might see those evolith's to put on some gear to maybe help with the gap?

I mean this is a two part update, mid-november is still a week or two away. A evolith of perpet-1 to something simple as a ruby earring with a few more pet boosts since i'm sure there's 3 slots or so avaible..would make for a decent piece...and it would really fill in that gap that the favors didn't fully put in.
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#24 Nov 11 2009 at 10:46 PM Rating: Good
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Unclear wrote:
Just curious, the augment list posted on BG contains things that can be done with the evolith/synergy system, on it is avatar perpet -1. Do you think it will be possible we might see those evolith's to put on some gear to maybe help with the gap?

I mean this is a two part update, mid-november is still a week or two away. A evolith of perpet-1 to something simple as a ruby earring with a few more pet boosts since i'm sure there's 3 slots or so avaible..would make for a decent piece...and it would really fill in that gap that the favors didn't fully put in.


One could only hope for that kind of insight on SE's part but, given the truly staggering array of mage-oriented staves pathetically worse than NQ elemental staves, I shudder as I think how SE decidedly made perpetuation-1 slots available only on weapon and body pieces.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#25 Nov 12 2009 at 7:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Let's just share my experience last night - when I headed to Port Jeuno for limbus after being on SMN (which is rare) since I was doing those different damage types NMs in Romave for Shantotto... I'm actually really still quite upset about it now.

Stood around waiting for jobs to be called - expecting to be told to get on COR or RNG or something... get put in BLM party for Diabolos refresh. Go to limbus and BLMs are sleep-nuking... so can't really do much in the way of damage without being timed incredibly carefully, can't release avatar cos it was like mass taru-moan-ga III if I did because it turned their mp crack off - so I just had to stand there, keep hitting dream shroud, throw out a cure... and not move, with Diabolos superglued to my backside. Oh and keep a finger over retreat macro in case the avatar went after a mob the BLMs were trying to sleep. The one time that happened I got lines of "stupid effing Diabolos" - only not with the fluffy version of effing.

I have never been so bored in all my time in-game. It even beat BRD in the BLM party in dynamis for boredom. To top it all off - when I mentioned I was bored I got told (only half jokingly) "you're just a BRD now - deal with it." Can't change avatars for variety because that's like shoving a drug addict into cold turkey for the time it takes to cast, do something, resummmon and favour to rebuild - no more Earthern Ward, Aerial Armour, Predator Claws... not even any more lil blue squirrel (although I was tempted to stand with him out and regen 'em all out of ring latents).

I'd like to thank SE wholeheartedly for ruining a job that, while I didn't get to play it much, I enjoyed. Almost chucked my AF2 and YYR away last night I was so cross - and now SMN is a job I'm no longer prepared to play for anything other than solo/mass SMNer activities. Full props to SE for achieving what I thought was impossible - making a fun job now more boring to play than HNM BRD in the black mage party. If I'm going to get the "come SMN to stand by the BLMs and be bored" - I'll say no and take the risk of a broken linkshell.

Now I fully appreciate that at least part of this is the LS I'm in and the dynamics of who was on that night, and the fact that people were being wise asses to show off for the amusement of others in a joking way - but it's exactly what I saw happening when they announced the favours and it is, sadly, what the job's likely to become relegated to. There's invites and being used for stuff - but at what price? I think that what happened last night was more than a price I'm prepared to pay.

The job didn't suck - but now it does.
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#26 Nov 12 2009 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
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One could only hope for that kind of insight on SE's part but, given the truly staggering array of mage-oriented staves pathetically worse than NQ elemental staves, I shudder as I think how SE decidedly made perpetuation-1 slots available only on weapon and body pieces.


Oh I know, I'm just putting it out there as the final small..tiny..pin sized beam of light. I doubt they'll let more than one of the same be put on the same piece.

I guess I just imagine how smn torque would be with an avatar perpet -1 to it. Or a wasit / back piece that we would use for it too. And IF they did that..it would fix what I always wanted with the job. I got everything for this job, working on znm items for Nirvana, so obviously I don't mind working towards any perpet - gear they might put out here...guess just have to wait and see.
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#27 Nov 12 2009 at 8:19 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Let's just share my experience last night - when I headed to Port Jeuno for limbus after being on SMN (which is rare) since I was doing those different damage types NMs in Romave for Shantotto... I'm actually really still quite upset about it now.

Stood around waiting for jobs to be called - expecting to be told to get on COR or RNG or something... get put in BLM party for Diabolos refresh. Go to limbus and BLMs are sleep-nuking... so can't really do much in the way of damage without being timed incredibly carefully, can't release avatar cos it was like mass taru-moan-ga III if I did because it turned their mp crack off - so I just had to stand there, keep hitting dream shroud, throw out a cure... and not move, with Diabolos superglued to my backside. Oh and keep a finger over retreat macro in case the avatar went after a mob the BLMs were trying to sleep. The one time that happened I got lines of "stupid effing Diabolos" - only not with the fluffy version of effing.

I have never been so bored in all my time in-game. It even beat BRD in the BLM party in dynamis for boredom. To top it all off - when I mentioned I was bored I got told (only half jokingly) "you're just a BRD now - deal with it." Can't change avatars for variety because that's like shoving a drug addict into cold turkey for the time it takes to cast, do something, resummmon and favour to rebuild - no more Earthern Ward, Aerial Armour, Predator Claws... not even any more lil blue squirrel (although I was tempted to stand with him out and regen 'em all out of ring latents).

I'd like to thank SE wholeheartedly for ruining a job that, while I didn't get to play it much, I enjoyed. Almost chucked my AF2 and YYR away last night I was so cross - and now SMN is a job I'm no longer prepared to play for anything other than solo/mass SMNer activities. Full props to SE for achieving what I thought was impossible - making a fun job now more boring to play than HNM BRD in the black mage party. If I'm going to get the "come SMN to stand by the BLMs and be bored" - I'll say no and take the risk of a broken linkshell.

Now I fully appreciate that at least part of this is the LS I'm in and the dynamics of who was on that night, and the fact that people were being wise asses to show off for the amusement of others in a joking way - but it's exactly what I saw happening when they announced the favours and it is, sadly, what the job's likely to become relegated to. There's invites and being used for stuff - but at what price? I think that what happened last night was more than a price I'm prepared to pay.

The job didn't suck - but now it does.


So, the moral of the story is...for all you SMNs wishing you could buff as well as BRD/COR so you could take a spot from them in a party...looks like you got your wish. Is it really worth it?

I want to ask something to all the SMNs here. Let's say we became totally specialized in one role (since our versatility kills party invites). For the easiest example, let's say Refresh(ga) whore. And let's say we ramp up Diabolos's Refresh to say...6 mp/tic when fully charged? There we go, single biggest source of Refresh from one job in the game, putting RDM, BRD, and COR out of business in terms of providing Refresh. Let's say this suddenly got us all the party invites in the world (exp/merits/endgame). Would you be glad because you finally get a chance to use your SMN for SOMETHING, or would be upset like this poor person I quoted because you'd be heading into the realm of RDM/BRD boredom?

Also, out of all the roles SMN can fulfill, which one would you choose to specialize in if you had the chance? As said before, our versatility is cool and all, but it kills our party invites because our talents are so spread out we're not overly good at anything as a result.
#28 Nov 12 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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If we became specialized in ONE area...I wouldn't play this job again becuase I play jobs with flexability..that can switch from one role to another. This is why I love SCH, RDM, PUP.

Plus if we did, we would still be restricted by one thing..prepet cost. That's all that's stopping us from my point of view. Perpet - to the point where we can recieve refresh from a refresher job, and gain MP from it.

We still have a lot of testing to see where this update takes us. The diabolos thing..seems fine to me, acts like a leash for blm's to stay near you and don't wnoder off like they do when I'm brd.

So..like I said my small beam of hope is laying on Evolith and the ability to put perpet cost - where we couldn't before and finish that gap..if that happens? I'm going to break out something nasty with my SMN.
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#29 Nov 12 2009 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
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Not a SMN myself well its 30, but for T4 ZNM I was really glad of Shiva's Favor it seemed very noticeable and the SMN was still doing decent damage with Shiva.

My BLM love aside I do however think that of all the ways to steer SMN in the right direction for the purpose of getting in exp pt's this wasnt the best way to go. Not that i'm saying SMN endgame should be changed just something to make it more exp friendly without burning in the tunnel and having 30 Summoning Skill at 75 >.>
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#30 Nov 12 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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Tyka wrote:
Not that i'm saying SMN endgame should be changed just something to make it more exp friendly without burning in the tunnel and having 30 Summoning Skill at 75 >.>


I wonder how strong Avatar's Favour would be for any given bonus with only 30 skill to back it up...
#31 Nov 12 2009 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know how much smn skill of 30 gives you but I do know the "fun" of manually skilling up the smn magic skill! Get a lawn chair and sit outside bastok..and watch the day go by!
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#32 Nov 12 2009 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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So, the moral of the story is...for all you SMNs wishing you could buff as well as BRD/COR so you could take a spot from them in a party...looks like you got your wish. Is it really worth it?


But that isn't my wish. My wish is to be versatile AND useful at the same time. Or rather, useful BECAUSE I'm versatile.

Quote:
I'd say that the people saying Favors don't change anything are simply referring to "SMN's situation." That is, the rate at which we get invited to parties or get asked to go to some events.


It doesn't change anything that was broken. That is more or less the problem. We have dozens of useful tools, but they need fixing to be able to use them. Instead SE insists on only giving us new ones, which are hit and miss. This favor system is a hit, but only as an addition, not as a combination of older content.

For example we have Dispel + ga * 2 on a BP...and how often do we use it? Personally I never do, because it takes too long to get out Fenrir, wait on BP:ward timer to get ready to dispel something that BRD or RDM just wooshes a spell/song at instantly.

Separate it FROM fenrir and FROM the timer and suddenly we could dispel 2 buffs on things like Sandworm as soon as needed, as long as we had an avatar out engaged.
#33 Nov 12 2009 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mellowy wrote:
We have dozens of useful tools, but they need fixing to be able to use them. Instead SE insists on only giving us new ones, which are hit and miss.


That's why I feel a little confused whenever players on this forum talk about wanting new avatars. As far as I'm concerned, we don't need new avatars - we need SE to fix/tweak the ones we have. There are so many bloodpacts I don't use because they're either useless or extremely situational, or simply because I feel compelled to use a "safer" or more reliable BP given the time and MP constraints. I think SE needs to focus more on improving what we have before adding anything else.
#34 Nov 12 2009 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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COR can refresh, but SMN gets an *automatic and continuous* (aura) Refresh, can buff, and do damage. Every 50 seconds. Don't laugh now! I mean it!! And SMN can spot heal ontop of that.

No job can provide a double attack bonus. Is that right? Point is, we are Summoners, not strict support classes like BRD and COR.


Fighter's roll from cor is double attack, and a commonly used DD roll alongside chaos. Also, Cor is not a strict support class, it's a support/DD hybrid. Even if a cor isn't shooting/WSing, it can still pop a 200+ (unresisted) quick draw every minute. Of course, nobody brings cors to events for their damage, but it's nice to have on top of the buffs. Smn, on the other hand, should ideally be used for damage, with the buffs as the cherry on top.

Quote:
Stood around waiting for jobs to be called - expecting to be told to get on COR or RNG or something... get put in BLM party for Diabolos refresh.


I really don't get why they wouldn't just bring you cor, in that case. A general 3/tic evoker's combined with constant wizard's, along with the flexibility of being able to do other things, makes more sense than standing around with diabolos for four hours.
#35 Nov 12 2009 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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Squintik wrote:
That's why I feel a little confused whenever players on this forum talk about wanting new avatars. As far as I'm concerned, we don't need new avatars - we need SE to fix/tweak the ones we have. There are so many bloodpacts I don't use because they're either useless or extremely situational, or simply because I feel compelled to use a "safer" or more reliable BP given the time and MP constraints. I think SE needs to focus more on improving what we have before adding anything else.


I agree wholeheartedly, especially because SE's "new avatar(s)" would be considered a fix, and would likely cause us to ignore all previous avatars as well as having their own problems, as well.

The end result would just be a different kind (i.e., updated) of partially-broken job, which isn't a solution at all, but rather tosses a newer problem on top of an older one.

Frankly, I cannot understand how Summoner ever made it to release back in 2004 (?) - it's only magic skill was essentially useless, its merit spells were negligible, it had no gear that enhanced the Avatars, and it could only do one action per minute, what the heck, SE? After years of updates more than doubling the power of the job, it still suffers from its initial design failures, and is only beginning to come into its own, though even so remains bested, as others have also pointed out, by a Corsair.

Maybe one day they'll figure out what most serious Summoners who post on these boards already know and have experienced.

maybe...
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#36 Nov 12 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
That's why I feel a little confused whenever players on this forum talk about wanting new avatars. As far as I'm concerned, we don't need new avatars - we need SE to fix/tweak the ones we have. There are so many bloodpacts I don't use because they're either useless or extremely situational, or simply because I feel compelled to use a "safer" or more reliable BP given the time and MP constraints. I think SE needs to focus more on improving what we have before adding anything else.


A thousand times this. New avatars would be nice and all, but I'd rather them fix the ones we already have first.
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