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#1 Nov 09 2009 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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So, I got into game and tested new avatar favor system, and here are my findings.

Avatar's Favor is a Pet command, meaning that an avatar needs to be out for it to be used.

Naked, or near naked, Perpetuation cost is about -2 with Avatar's favor up. This makes all avatars near free with the right equipment and without other people's help.

When avatar's favor is up, it is permanent on Summoner, but can be clicked off.

However, the effect is only available if the avatar in question is up. While this does allow avatars to be switched out, there can only be one effect up at any given time.

It takes 30 seconds from summoning for full effect to be in play.

Each avatar has an icon when favor is up that will hit all party members in range.

No idea on how/if avatars are weakened yet. I haven't tested that.

This is awesome!

#2 Nov 09 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Any indication that the avatars themselves receive the favor?
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#3 Nov 09 2009 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Tested Diabolos, and it appears to cap out at +3 Refresh, meaning Lucky Summoner's Roll without job bonus. Again, this caps out at about 30 seconds. It appears to ramp up on three levels with each level about 10 seconds apart.
#4 Nov 09 2009 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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No idea yet. I'll test it with Ifrit to see if he gets double attack.
#5 Nov 09 2009 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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I haven't started the actual testing on the damage or HP / def etc... i'm sure someone will have a pc to use a program on it.

I'm getting the same -2. And when I switch avatars I get a new favor that replaces the old one.

You're right, this means that with great endgame collected gear we can have free avatars...on their rightful day. So..I guess people were right haha this really isn't going to do much of anything for us.
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#6 Nov 09 2009 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually, without Summoner's Doublet, the perp cost is at -2. If you have help, such as a SCH, COR, BRD, or RDM, or even Sublimation in a clinch, can do very well to keep MP up. Add in Elemental Siphon, and you can even use BPs regularly.
#7 Nov 09 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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One note to make is that each avatar has an unique icon that appears when favor is in place, and it affects all party members in range. If party members do not get the icon, it means that they're too far from the avatar.
#8 Nov 09 2009 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Did some tests with Ifrit, and it appears that favors do NOT affect avatars. In my fighting with enemies outside Windurst [S], Ifrit did not do any Double attacking.
#9 Nov 09 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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So this means that the summoners themselves area affected by their own avatar's favour?
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#10 Nov 09 2009 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Summoners are, yes. Avatars are not.

So, this means that Ifrit will not get Double Attack, but Summoners can get things like Regen and Refresh from the favor.

Notes on range:

It appears the range is Ward range/Protectra Range. If the party member runs out of range, the favor will stay on for a tic and then disappears. If the party members runs back in, it will be a tic before the favor comes back on.

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 4:24pm by Keylin
#11 Nov 09 2009 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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It takes 30 seconds from summoning for full effect to be in play.


Are you sure? Because it takes AT LEAST 45 seconds to max Titans bonus, and I'd guess more around 1 min. Which Favor did you test?
#12 Nov 09 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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A SMN friend with HQ staff, YY doublet and the stuff is losing 2mp/tic using diabolos ... could it be that SMN can't get refreshed by their own diabolos ? Or is it maintenance time already ?
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#13 Nov 09 2009 at 3:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Keylin wrote:
Naked, or near naked, Perpetuation cost is about -2 with Avatar's favor up. This makes all avatars near free with the right equipment and without other people's help.


At what level? I'm level 75, and I'm losing 4mp per tic. I'm using Redingote with perp -2, a HQ staff, and Evoker's Ring.

I should add that I'm testing this while not in a party, not sure if that would make a difference.

Oh, and one last thing. With Carbuncle's Favor in effect, I'm losing 1mp per tic. Without the Favor, Carbuncle is now costing me 3mp per tic, when before the update, he was free. What gives???


Edited, Nov 9th 2009 5:03pm by Squintik
#14 Nov 09 2009 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
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It looks like it takes about 1:20 for max favor to hit, at least with Carbuncle. Using the favor timer as a guide, I watched how much HP was being restored per tick. When favor was started, it started at 1 HP/tic, and went up to 2, to 3, to 4, to 6, to 7, to 8, to 10, and finally, after 1:20 it hit 12.

It appears that Diabolos takes a bit longer, as it hit 3 MP/tic at 1:30. A bit slow for my tastes. It appears that different avatars hit different favors at different paces.

As far as Diabolos, I can get him free with the following equipment:

Weapon: Dark's Staff
Grip: Staff Grip
Ammo: Fortune Egg
Head: Summoner's Horn (No Dark Weather)
Neck: Summoning Torque
Ear: Loquacious Earring
Ear: Summoning Earring
Body: Summoner's Doublet (No Dark Day)
Hands: Nashira Gages
Ring: Evoker's Ring
Ring: Conjurer's Ring (HP lowered with -HP gear)
Back: Summoner's Cape
Waist: Heirarch's Belt
Legs: Evoker's Spats +1
Feet: Evoker's Pigaches +1

I also had refresh sigil and full Diabolos favor in effect.

Edit: If I had a Pluto's Staff or a Bahamut's Staff, I would not need refresh sigil.

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 5:03pm by Keylin
#15 Nov 09 2009 at 3:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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My Diabolos is broken or something.
It gives me 3 MP/Tick Refresh effect, not 4 as mentioned by other people.

My current set (not on Darksday or with Dark weather):
Bahamut's Staff
YinYang Robe
Nashira Gages
Evoker's Ring
Evoker's Pigaches +1
Auto Refresh

Diabolos is free but I saw on party member's MP bars that they have a 3 MP/Tick Refresh effect. >.>
#16 Nov 09 2009 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
At what level? I'm level 75, and I'm losing 4mp per tic. I'm using Redingote with perp -2, a HQ staff, and Evoker's Ring.

I should add that I'm testing this while not in a party, not sure if that would make a difference.

Oh, and one last thing. With Carbuncle's Favor in effect, I'm losing 1mp per tic. Without the Favor, Carbuncle is free - what gives?


As noted in my earlier post, I'm also using Nashira Gages, Conjurer's Ring, and Evoker's Pigaches+1 (Feet +1). Those three items would knock your perpetuation down to -1. Get a Nirvana, and you can have free avatars any time.
#17 Nov 09 2009 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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SeeYouTaru wrote:
A SMN friend with HQ staff, YY doublet and the stuff is losing 2mp/tic using diabolos ... could it be that SMN can't get refreshed by their own diabolos ? Or is it maintenance time already ?


What more does he have?

HQ -3
YY -1
Ring -1
Auto-refresh -1
Favors -2

Remember that he needs to remove 13 perpetuation.
#18 Nov 09 2009 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok. Unless I'm doing something wrong, as far as I'm concerned, this ability is totally useless. The perp reduction is not enough, we won't be able to keep our avatars out for long in any party situation, and unlike COR and BRD, we'll be a burden on other party members. There'll be too much downtime as we rest our MP, and with that in mind, no party will want us when they can get a BRD or COR instead.

I was hoping there would be more to this ability than we were expecting, but so far, there isn't.
#19 Nov 09 2009 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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Diabolos is free but I saw on party member's MP bars that they have a 3 MP/Tick Refresh effect. >.>


Wait, we just concluded it is 2 MP per tick on SMN. Could it be that it doesn't stack with auto-refresh trait? No other reason others should get 3 and not us.
#20 Nov 09 2009 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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One note, the favors do NOT carry over when zoning.
#21 Nov 09 2009 at 4:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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If this update was intended to give Carbuncle a higher perp cost so he would no longer be free, then that really screws up our ability to carby-kite.
#22 Nov 09 2009 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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The carby mitts are not working at all, i'm pretty sure this wasn't intentional at all as they would now have carby mitts in the game that are rare-ex, cannot be bought/sold/augmented, and have no function whatsoever. They'll fix it in the coming "I fugged up" patch.


I'm very happy with favors though. -2 is a good amount, this ability was not meant to completely remove the need to collect good end game gear to have your avatars cheap or free. Also if you take advantage of day/weather instead of ignoring it you can have the avatar of day or weather free with favor effect. I'm happy also that the weakening of the avatar is not very harsh at all for what you get in return. If anyone is having trouble keeping their avatar out for 3 minutes, what you need to do is work on a good perpetuation gear set. I can't wait to use this when camps pick up again tomorrow in my endgame shell, since i logged out as drg last night and had to camp as that when i logged on.

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 5:29pm by shadowkind
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#23 Nov 09 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Mellowy wrote:
Wait, we just concluded it is 2 MP per tick on SMN. Could it be that it doesn't stack with auto-refresh trait? No other reason others should get 3 and not us.
Auto-Refresh is always the first thing taken by Perpetuation, we could test this with Carby already. You can easily get over -9 (5 Mitts, 3 Apollo's, 1 Evoker's Ring, 1 Pigaches+1) in gear not including a body, then put on YYR for Refresh, and still only have 1/tick.
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#24 Nov 09 2009 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Has anyone really tested Ifrit's Favor? I went to fight things, and I didn't Double Attack at all with Ifrit's Favor on.
#25 Nov 09 2009 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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I've been hearing Ifrit's Favor is pretty much broken right now.
#26 Nov 09 2009 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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It's incredibly easy to test if the avatars favors work on themselves. I'd test it myself but I'm on PS2 and the download keeps screwing up and going slow, only to restart itself.

Anyways...

The T2 nukes (ie Fire 2, Blizzard 2, learned at level 10) deal the same damage for each avatar.

Take out ifrit, throw on a favor, and have him use Fire 2 on a level 0 mob in a starter zone.

Take out shiva, throw on a favor, and have her use Blizzard 2 on a level 0 mob also.

If the damage is the same, even after letting shiva's favor build up a little bit, then the favor has no effect on the avatar.
#27 Nov 09 2009 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Terrible disappointment. It's annoying enough that our avatars don't get the favor effects, but they're significantly weaker when we use it? Come on.

#28 Nov 09 2009 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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would love for someone to prove me wrong, but after 10 minutes of playing around with this ability it looks like it's time to put summoner away again for another 3 years.
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#29 Nov 09 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm trying to see if this will have any positive impact on a soloing SMN.

I guess it depends on if a weakened Diabolos > Carby for kiting, seeing how you can get MP back with Diabolos now.

Other than that, meh.
#30 Nov 09 2009 at 5:33 PM Rating: Default
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moonica wrote:
would love for someone to prove me wrong, but after 10 minutes of playing around with this ability it looks like it's time to put summoner away again for another 3 years.


hmm, could be...

Overall, a neat little tweak, but +62 defense or refresh only when perpetuating an avatar doesn't exactly fix Summoner... especially at the cost of ~15% avatar power. Basically I get to have less perpetuation in exchange for less avatar. T _ T

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 11:14pm by KaneKitty
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#31 Nov 09 2009 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
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Basically, someone said these favors will be more situational. But really, this only solves so much, we still require a refresher to make it so the perpet is 0 so we can use whatever avatar we want. I wish this ability worked as I thought it would be, and that's to fill in the gap where you can't supply perpet cost and make these pets free..and it's a fair exchange for the 15% reduction on avatar blood pacts. All i can hope is that this is anther bug.and they'll adjust it in some tomorrow with an emergency mait with the other bugs.
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#32 Nov 09 2009 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Unclear wrote:
Basically, someone said these favors will be more situational.

I'm really disappointed with this update. It just does nothing for SMN. It has sparked some interest, yes - but in the long run, it won't boost our chances of getting party invites. Why? SE has put us in the same realm as Bards and Corsairs, but the problem is, BRD and COR can both do their jobs without downtime, and without their primary job functions being bound to something that is constantly depleting like MP. They can also put up more than one party effect at a time, and can potentially give a stronger bonus than the SMN ability does. For SMN to even be comparable to either of those two jobs, our ability would have to have a stronger effect (to compensate for only having one effect at a time), and our MP cost would have to be nil. But since that isn't the case, parties will always choose a COR or a BRD over a SMN. Even if neither of those jobs are available (for whatever reason), a party would more than likely choose another DD than a SMN. Especially since if we are in a party specifically to use Avatar's Favor, we won't be able to play the role of healer or backup healer - not with an avatar out full-time. This ability, sadly, is a joke.
#33 Nov 09 2009 at 6:59 PM Rating: Default
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Summoner never needed fixing.

A huge issue with the job is the lack of understanding in how to use bloodpacts.

The non-tiered Merit 2 magical BPs are superior to the physical bloodpacts for a vast number of things, including its pure dmg/mp ratio and most importantly high accuracy. But is rarely used to its potential because its a) not free - ie: need merits b) most SMNs fail to fully merit one ability and instead spread it over several c) lack of appreciation of the Avatar MAB gear we've been given access to this year (Redingote and Fay Staff)

Avatar's favor adds things in a group setting that can be useful. But are largely things none of the 'fix smn' threads had asked for so clearly, it's not going to 'fix' anything.

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 5:16pm by Dekusutaa
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#34 Nov 09 2009 at 7:40 PM Rating: Good
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I think a majority of the SMN community including myself are mainly upset with SE's mind set of "Lets beat around the bush".

Don't get me wrong Avatar Favor is a welcome change and a great idea. However, SE could have handled it much much better instead of leaving the community with a "Why" feeling.

ie: Why does avatar Favor lower our dmg ~15% when we are already 1 of the slowest DD/Support jobs in the game?

Why does avatar Favor NOT work on our avatars?

And why are Carby mitts broken!

On the plus side at least they are finally starting to realize we need more then just +mp and are adding much more gear that enhance our avatar performance.
#35 Nov 09 2009 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Carby mitts being broken will be fixed no doubt.

As for favors not working for avatars, it's a bit of a mixed blessing. MAB working on Shiva would make Heavenly Strike ungodly and make all other tier2s irrelevant, and for me personally, shifting merits to that bp, which I only unlocked but did not take up beyond lvl 1, would have been a hassle.



Edited, Nov 9th 2009 5:48pm by Dekusutaa
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#36 Nov 09 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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So, I had an opportunity to test Ifrit's favor in a "real world" setting. In this case, I was in a party with a BLU/NIN, MNK/WAR, BLM and RDM. It was the Excavation Duty assault, and all I really did was pull out Ifrit, throw out a Warcry, and use his favor the entire time.

BLU and MNK were definately reporting an increase in Double Attack, and I even did a couple of DAs as well (In a 15 minute period, I did about 3). So, Ifrit's Favor might not be borked as we originally thought, but it definately seems to be subtle. Perhaps great for NINs or /NINs or MNKs or PUPs where there's a good amount of attack rounds, but not so great for 2 handers...like SMN.
#37 Nov 09 2009 at 8:21 PM Rating: Good
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HalladayWeekend wrote:
I'm trying to see if this will have any positive impact on a soloing SMN.

I guess it depends on if a weakened Diabolos > Carby for kiting, seeing how you can get MP back with Diabolos now.

Other than that, meh.


Sadly, it's not going to work how you may think it will work.
Although, I cant figure out how you think it will work.

Carby kiteing works not only because Carby is free. It works because you can run far enough away so that;
A. You dont get hit while trying to re-summon
B. When you re-summon (far enough away) you dont get any Enmity.

Trying to do this with Diabolos you would need to be standing next to him in order to get refresh. Which would leave you open to AoE attacks as well.
If Diabolos was a lot (significantly) stronger then Carbuncle it could work. Stand near him, hopefully right at the end of the 10' so you could avoid AoE. Then when Diabolos is 15~20% run as fast/far as you can so that you can Re-summon without hate and interuptions.
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#38 Nov 09 2009 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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This ability, sadly, is a joke.


I..well agree with you, they had a chance to do something amazing and just ended up screwing up. Their entire "We want smn's to keep their avatars out" can't be done if these avatars do nothing but cost mp to keep out and more mp to use pacts while we're using more MP to cure. I got on right after the update, was already outside summoned Ifrit..saw my perpet still ticking away..and instantly felt the same way.

I understand not giving shiva the 10 MAB because she would be the one to use. The others? I have no clue, i don't think it would kill if Ifrit got DA, Ramuh got critical hit rate % boost...Don't even think Titans def boost would make him into a tanking god...so I don't see how it would hurt especially if we're taking out a 15%.
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#39 Nov 09 2009 at 9:12 PM Rating: Decent
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If you use an offensive blood pact your Favor's Timer resets. You can test it easy with Diabolos. Summon him wait for his perp cost to decrease by 1 (your getting his refresh) then use Somnolence, Netherblast or Camisado. The refresh resets to its most base form. It does not appear to reset when you use Noctoshield or any defensive pact. Not sure about things like nightmare or ultimate terror.

Edit: It doesn't seem to reset if you have Diabolos's Favor maxed. Only if your still waiting for it to max. More testing. Wrong.

On the plus neither Nightmare or Ultimate Terror reset it.

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 7:17pm by Greenjester

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 7:29pm by Greenjester
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#40 Nov 09 2009 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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You people would actually prefer that Shiva not get the 10 MAB just so all of the pacts can be equal?

I don't see many BLMS lobbying for every nuke to have Stone potency....
#41 Nov 09 2009 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Well they also weakened the avatar bp damage when favour is on and according to another post, it will reset the beneficial buff to its lowest strength whenever you use an offensive BP with favour on.

So if it had applied to Shiva, you'd still be maybe nuking below normal strength.

Edited, Nov 9th 2009 8:05pm by Dekusutaa
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#42 Nov 09 2009 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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Hey guys I'm really happy for you, and I'm gonna let you finish, but a free Garuda with this new ability and my NQ wind staff, relic body on windsday, af+1 feet, evoker's ring, and karura hachigane along with FoV refresh is one of the greatest things of all time.

Ok perhaps I should slow down on the memes a bit lol...
#43 Nov 09 2009 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Arcari wrote:
Hey guys I'm really happy for you, and I'm gonna let you finish, but a free Garuda with this new ability and my NQ wind staff, relic body on windsday, af+1 feet, evoker's ring, and karura hachigane along with FoV refresh is one of the greatest things of all time.

Ok perhaps I should slow down on the memes a bit lol...


haha, we need more posters like you Arc.

Too many cynical people, to put it mildly. rate up.
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#44 Nov 09 2009 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Well they also weakened the avatar bp damage when favour is on and according to another post, it will reset the beneficial buff to its lowest strength whenever you use an offensive BP with favour on.

So if it had applied to Shiva, you'd still be maybe nuking below normal strength.


Right, well I guess that's part II of my disappointment. If only these buffs would have applied to the avatars, and not weakened them, this update would have been amazing.

But SE is VERY stingy about giving us ways to increase the damage of our avatars, so it makes sense that this big SMN update actually restricts the offensive output of our job.
#45 Nov 09 2009 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I honestly think the effect of favor resetting upon the use of a bloodpact rage is some kind of glitch, because it doesn't always happen when i've done it. If its not consistant, its probably a glitch. I wouldn't be surprised if some of what we know so far is based on glitched execution because the job and the gear that effects it has seemed to be glitched since the update this afternoon.
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#46 Nov 09 2009 at 10:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes it may be a glitch, using 'ward' effects also turns off the favor efforts for a brief period.

my perp with diabolous at full buff out went from 'free' to -5 perp to -3, to -1 then back to free in a matter of 1-2 seconds.

doing more testing on offensive bps
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#47 Nov 10 2009 at 6:42 AM Rating: Decent
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I may have skipped by someone answering this already, but has anyone tested the favors in campaign? Do they effect all the npcs like bps? If so...sweet. I imagine you'd get quite a few curing points for having a constant regen up on every npc in range.
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#48 Nov 10 2009 at 11:25 AM Rating: Default
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HalladayWeekend wrote:
You people would actually prefer that Shiva not get the 10 MAB just so all of the pacts can be equal?

I don't see many BLMS lobbying for every nuke to have Stone potency....


What MAB? Avatars do not get the favor bonus themselves.

This is more like BLMs complaining about retrace, since it doesn't help US, but it helps others.
#49 Nov 10 2009 at 11:26 AM Rating: Default
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Theshizknight wrote:
I may have skipped by someone answering this already, but has anyone tested the favors in campaign? Do they effect all the npcs like bps? If so...sweet. I imagine you'd get quite a few curing points for having a constant regen up on every npc in range.


Only party (haven't tested alliance). No effect in campaign.
#50 Nov 10 2009 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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What MAB? Avatars do not get the favor bonus themselves.

This is more like BLMs complaining about retrace, since it doesn't help US, but it helps others.


Right, avatars don't get the bonus themselves. And more than one person has said something along the lines of "Well I'm glad that the avatars don't get the bonus, because that would make Heavenly Strike the best merit pact."
#51 Nov 10 2009 at 12:08 PM Rating: Default
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HalladayWeekend wrote:
Quote:
What MAB? Avatars do not get the favor bonus themselves.

This is more like BLMs complaining about retrace, since it doesn't help US, but it helps others.


Right, avatars don't get the bonus themselves. And more than one person has said something along the lines of "Well I'm glad that the avatars don't get the bonus, because that would make Heavenly Strike the best merit pact."


They should go look up the +Macc boots for Shiva only.
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