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#52 Oct 21 2009 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
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taishokukanoki wrote:
tmlane wrote:

Snake eye and Fold(the abilities you're referencing) do not guarantee consistent lucky rolls or XI's on a Cor's respective buffs (which is what they're going to need to match one of these Aura's these avatars give at peak strength). The chance for an inadequate buff is still very likely.


It doesn't guarantee consistent roll number, but it does provide a statistical increase to occurrence of higher results and a statistical decrease to the odds of a bust. (IE you don't need to double up)


So what's your point? 1 consistent buff is going to be more potent than 1 that fluctuates (especially when it needs to hit 2/11 values to be greater than or equal to the consistent buff). This is the whole reason why ppl prefer a brd over a cor from a buffing standpoint(well that and haste). Still speculation though since we don't know how long it takes the avatar to max out.
#53 Oct 21 2009 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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The fluctuations are of a narrower margin because optimal roll strategies does exist. The fluctuations are further then skewed by Snake Eyes. Snake Eyes creates, Higher highs and higher lows.
#54 Oct 21 2009 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Speaking of avatars, SE has never spoken about them as "job adjustments", but rather "new content". They'll have their own update note (if they are coming).

It could also just be a translation error, and these favors are what took 2 years to design and "balance".
#55 Oct 21 2009 at 3:47 PM Rating: Decent
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#56 Oct 21 2009 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
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taishokukanoki wrote:
The fluctuations are of a narrower margin because optimal roll strategies does exist. The fluctuations are further then skewed by Snake Eyes. Snake Eyes creates, Higher highs and higher lows.


A pointless argument since despite a narrower margin the buff is still inconsistent. Snake eye does not guarantee a lucky roll or XI even with a proper roll strategy. You're also neglecting the fact that the ability is on a 5 minute timer when maxed out making it only usable for 1 buff per roll rotation which a cor will often use to salvage a bad roll or save for their more powerful buffs.

I'll ask you again. What is your point? This does not cause a buff to cease to be inconsistent, and if a SMN can reach an equal value to a lucky number in an acceptable time then it will be the more potent buff.
#57 Oct 21 2009 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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tmlane wrote:
taishokukanoki wrote:
The fluctuations are of a narrower margin because optimal roll strategies does exist. The fluctuations are further then skewed by Snake Eyes. Snake Eyes creates, Higher highs and higher lows.


A pointless argument since despite a narrower margin the buff is still inconsistent. Snake eye does not guarantee a lucky roll or XI even with a proper roll strategy. You're also neglecting the fact that the ability is on a 5 minute timer when maxed out making it only usable for 1 buff per roll rotation which a cor will often use to salvage a bad roll or save for their more powerful buffs.

I'll ask you again. What is your point? This does not cause a buff to cease to be inconsistent, and if a SMN can reach an equal value to a lucky number in an acceptable time then it will be the more potent buff.


Regardless I doubt the Favors will be "job enhanced" so it will only be more potent buff for parties who have no WARs or DRKs or SAMs as melee jobs, or no BLMs for nuking jobs.
#58 Oct 21 2009 at 4:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rolls are "free" but Favors are not. In fact, Favors are WAY TOO EXPENSIVE.

Actual cost:
1) Decrease in avatar performance
2) Perp cost if there is any
Opportunity cost:
1) MP lost by NOT /healing.

But more to the point. Can the Favors reach max effect within the span of one merit fight? Which is what? 30-40 sec?

If not, then you'll have to keep it up for multiple fights and not able to rest. IT's all around bad.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 6:07pm by taishokukanoki
#59 Oct 21 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Wow...
It seems they finally added the update that would make summoners and summons truly valuable... Only about 5 years too late. It's sad because I would have LOVED this back when I played...
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Yay!
#60 Oct 21 2009 at 4:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Although this update will make us more desirable in parties, I'm not sure it makes us desirable enough to warrant choosing a Summoner over a Corsair or Bard for buffing, or even as a support-buffer to work alongside one of those jobs. Unless there are more details to this update that make the situation better, I'm not convinced that it'll improve our ability to find parties. There might be some interest in Summoners at first, but after the average player realizes we can't be healer and buffer at the same time effectively, invites will drop off again.

I do like some elements of this update, but the more I think about it, the only thing it means to me is that with the new ability active and my avatars' perpetuation cost reduced further, I'll be able to kite Djinns for longer before having to rest.
#61 Oct 21 2009 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Congrats on your upgrade SMNs, you've truly deserved something. It may not be a new avatar but man oh man, I really want to see you guys in a manaburn party most of all.

EDIT: really bad typo lol

Really curious how the Double Attack rate will proc with Ifrit's Favor.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 6:03pm by RaideLeonn
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#62 Oct 21 2009 at 7:05 PM Rating: Default
Heya Manifest! Any bets whether they eventually implement a second mode like Sch, or just keep it a single selectable mode like Rdm?

I'm rather curious to see what a Smnburn plays like now (an uncapped Smnburn, not a capped Astralburn). Does each Smn get to pick a different avatar now? Especially if the avatars *can* get these buffs.

Worth noting: Garuda can benefit from her own Hastega, which stacks with Bard March. Garuda cannot benefit from March. Hastega will not benefit other avatars, even other Garudas. Thus, we have a precedent to *suggest* that the avatar will benefit from her own Favor. What would be REALLY nice is if other pets (especially other avatars) can also benefit from the Favor.

Also worth remembering is that glorious 'bug' that let pets receive buffs in Campaign. The coding *does* exist to allow it, S-E just has it set to disallow it.
#63 Oct 21 2009 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I was overcame with a sense of Deja Vu when I saw the adjustment notes. After 10 minutes of digging through my old posts, I found this post I made in Dec 2008.

http://www.zam.com/forum.html?forum=29&mid=1230249312182478080&page=1&howmany=50#m1230619930210778891

The similarities are striking.
Dekusutaa Dec 29, 2008 wrote:

Here's the more 'wish list' items.

1)Add Party-wide bonuses for having avatar out. Up to 3 SMNs can stack their differing avatar bonuses. Repeats do not stacks. Effects are Halved for /SMN and do not stack with multiple /SMN.
Ifrit +5% attk +30 Ice Resist
Leviathan +5 MDB +30 Fire Resist
Shiva +5 MAB +30 Wind Resist
Garuda +5% Eva +30 Earth Resist
Carbuncle +1 Regen "Resist Charm" +30 Dark Resist
Titan +5% Def +30 Thunder Resist
Ramuh +5% Crital Hit +30 Water Resist
Fenrir +5% Accuracy +30 Light Resist
Diabolos +5 Conserve MP "Resist Sleep" +15 All Elemental Resist

2) For the new avatars being designed, have then do very specific things
ie: one that can take a beating and tank. one that can do a lot of damage but has a + dmg penalty making them not ideal for taking hits.






Edited, Oct 21st 2009 7:08pm by Dekusutaa
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#64 Oct 21 2009 at 8:40 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Although this update will make us more desirable in parties, I'm not sure it makes us desirable enough to warrant choosing a Summoner over a Corsair or Bard for buffing, or even as a support-buffer to work alongside one of those jobs. Unless there are more details to this update that make the situation better, I'm not convinced that it'll improve our ability to find parties. There might be some interest in Summoners at first, but after the average player realizes we can't be healer and buffer at the same time effectively, invites will drop off again.


Isn't SMN already considered a good healer? I'm honestly asking, because I don't merit anymore unless for fun (I've had capped merits for quite some time, well non NIN, but NIN merits suck anyway). I would assume hastega and cure III would be enough in most merit pts. Not to mention dia2 if you decide to go /whm. Instead of trying to be healer and buffer at the same time, why not just pick one? If you're healing, sub whm or sch. If buffing sub cor (up to 17% atk) or brd (ballad) which go along nicely with your new buffs.

Maybe I'm just biased because SCH is basically the last choice for healing in merits because of lack of haste. But SMN doesn't seem bad to me as healer or buffer. I see problems trying to do both at once though.

I'd love to merit with a SMN. I think SCH and SMN work well together, we cover each others weaknesses very well. SMN can hastega and receive weather, and with SCH there, DDs have absolutely no reason to hold back with seigan and /nin. Now with the new buffs, maybe SCH can be accepted as a healer. 35% AoE haste, 1 atk buff + dia2, double attack, and 100% offense from DDs, oh yeah and lol +7 Str. But I'm just a silly SCH with a dream...


Edited, Oct 21st 2009 11:03pm by Fermion
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#65 Oct 21 2009 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Squintik wrote:
Although this update will make us more desirable in parties, I'm not sure it makes us desirable enough to warrant choosing a Summoner over a Corsair or Bard for buffing, or even as a support-buffer to work alongside one of those jobs. Unless there are more details to this update that make the situation better, I'm not convinced that it'll improve our ability to find parties. There might be some interest in Summoners at first, but after the average player realizes we can't be healer and buffer at the same time effectively, invites will drop off again.

I do like some elements of this update, but the more I think about it, the only thing it means to me is that with the new ability active and my avatars' perpetuation cost reduced further, I'll be able to kite Djinns for longer before having to rest.


If Carby's regen ability averages >3 hp/tick and stacks on Carby itself, it sounds like it will (based on the comparison to the Corsair roll's lucky number strength) it be awesome for marathon soloing some tougher NMs and great for HNM and end game where dot could be an issue.

The real question is if the buffs stack on the avatar. I <3 Garuda and Wind Blade which I took to lvl 5, but I'd be heartbroken to have to roll back merits to build up Shiva and Heavenly strike with Shiva's irresitable MAB bonus. But I gotta do what I gotta do.

The unfortunate part is, I've only just recently decided to spend merits on Titan's Geocrush too...


Edited, Oct 21st 2009 10:09pm by Dekusutaa
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#66 Oct 21 2009 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Could it be fair to assume that there would be a part 3 to the update? Since they lumped smn and bst in one? Could the 3rd be...a new... nah.
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#67 Oct 21 2009 at 11:22 PM Rating: Good
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Isn't SMN already considered a good healer?


Only thing making SMN better than WAR at healing is the amount of MP. With the introduction of DNC a SAM/DNC is probably superior to SMN/WHM for healing... but you wouldn't want a good job sacrifice their main for others, leave that for crappy jobs.

Quote:
Worth noting: Garuda can benefit from her own Hastega, which stacks with Bard March. Garuda cannot benefit from March. Hastega will not benefit other avatars, even other Garudas. Thus, we have a precedent to *suggest* that the avatar will benefit from her own Favor. What would be REALLY nice is if other pets (especially other avatars) can also benefit from the Favor.


As I've said since SCNM was added to the game, I suspected the aura effect to come in a SMN update. And since we have precedents of bosses not getting slow or gravity themselves, I doubt the avatars will get the boosts themselves.
#68 Oct 21 2009 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Fermion wrote:

1) I'd love to merit with a SMN. I think SCH and SMN work well together, we cover each others weaknesses very well. SMN can hastega and receive weather, and with SCH there, DDs have absolutely no reason to hold back with seigan and /nin. Now with the new buffs, maybe SCH can be accepted as a healer. 35% AoE haste, 1 atk buff + dia2, double attack, and 100% offense from DDs, oh yeah and lol +7 Str. But I'm just a silly SCH with a dream...


Smn and a Sch in one party (as is) would be overkill. Good Sch can keep the entire healed as is, and they make claims of being able to allow all DD's to go /sam or /war and go balls to the wall, which they use as an argument to overcome no haste. I've yet to merit with a Sch healer, so I can't confirm nor deny that claim.

Smn, can also keep the entire party healed and hasted on their own and also use Rages as well. There's really no point (as is) to have both in one party. Each of them separately would benefit more from a Brd, Cor, or Dnc than they would a Sch, or Smn. Now, Smn's more common issue now, is we require everyone to use /Nin to be safe and smooth. It's gotten to the point now, where people have realized Whm and Rdm are both able to support a party while allowing War's to /sam, Sam's to /war and Drg to /sam. Because of that fact, people are a lot less likely to settle for a Smn or Sch as merit healers these days.

Moving on to the update and 100% support role...
Smn/Cor with Ifrit Favor.
Assume you're spamming Crimson Roar every 1:30 (again I'm assuming double BP timer) and using Chaos Roll, as well as the expected 18% Double Attack from the favor.

We're looking at 18% Double Attack, BP ward's 9% Attack plus /Cor's Chaos Roll's Average 8.2%*.
18% Double Attack & 17% Attack.

That would put us dead even with Corsairs for front line buffs, assuming they were using Fighters(DA) + Chaos(Att).
But... Cor can Deal more Damage than a Smn, and with zero MP cost.
Cor can offer Refresh to the back line, as well as hMP or Exp bonus.
Cor can also reliably and quickly sleep a mob.
Cor can also (not optimally) act as a puller.

So even if you wanted to make the statement that a Smn could keep up with a Cor in Damage, the 3 other remaining factors will still justify everyone choosing a Cor and Brd over Smn. Haste is not something we can offer a party unless the main healer is a Sch or Dnc. From a Sch's standpoint, maybe a Smn becomes the #2 option second to Bard. Dnc main healing... Is what I consider an exotic party that you can't make a basis on, along with drg/whm parties. Pre-update, I'd also venture to say that a Dnc was a better support job than Smn, assuming they have 5 merits into Haste Samba. Post update, I'd have to guess that for the typical merit party Smn would be ahead of Dnc now. But Smn can still offer Mana Burns something.

* /Cor Chaos Roll average is based on the theory that you'll Double up on 1-3 and 5. Leaving a possible 4,6,7,8,9,10,11 result, 12%,6%,7%,1%,8%,9%,15% respectively. Combined = 58. 58/7 = 8.2% Attack on average.
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#69 Oct 22 2009 at 12:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Mellowy wrote:
Only thing making SMN better than WAR at healing is the amount of MP.

And AOE hastega
And AOE Stoneskin
And hMp gear
And Clear Mind 5
And Elemental Siphon
And YinYang Robe
And Auto Refresh
And...
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#70 Oct 22 2009 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
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If the general feel is that the avatars will be weakened during this ability, it would make no sense for them to gain the favor bonus. If that's the case, it will be pretty disappointing.

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#71 Oct 22 2009 at 4:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I foresee a "an avatar weakened cannot move, but still retains everything else" coming, which would mostly help mages strategies over melee ones.

I'm not really interested by merit performance honnestly, we don't want smn to become a new bandwagon job like SAM did and end up with 90% of ppl not knowing what they do.
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#72 Oct 22 2009 at 5:31 AM Rating: Good
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Smn and a Sch in one party (as is) would be overkill. Good Sch can keep the entire healed as is, and they make claims of being able to allow all DD's to go /sam or /war and go balls to the wall, which they use as an argument to overcome no haste. I've yet to merit with a Sch healer, so I can't confirm nor deny that claim.


In that situation, the SMN would obviously be buffing so /cor would be best.

A 350 hp stoneskin, at the very least -25 damage phalanx really do make healing very easy. **** throw in AoE blink if you want to make the case even stronger, although I've never needed it. Also, everyone has pro4, it's not a huge difference but defense does matter a little bit when you hardly have any. Usually by the time one person's stoneskin is broken, someone else has taken hate, then by the time their stoneskin has broken, I'm casting another one. The way I do it is when the 2nd person's stoneskin has broken, I cast it again. I rarely ever even use cure, regen 2 is usually enough.
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#73 Oct 22 2009 at 5:52 AM Rating: Default
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There's not any real update notes that say the avatar will be weakened is there? Besides the one people translated from the other site, there isn't anything..definate? Just curious because people seem to be so sure on it, but with good reason I will admit that. Just wanted to make sure that I didn't miss something that specifically said the avatars would be weakened. Me personally I don't think there will be but I have nothing to back that up so all I can really say is won't know until we get through the update.
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#74 Oct 22 2009 at 6:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gerkin wrote:
Mellowy wrote:
Only thing making SMN better than WAR at healing is the amount of MP.

And AOE hastega
And AOE Stoneskin
And hMp gear
And Clear Mind 5
And Elemental Siphon
And YinYang Robe
And Auto Refresh
And...


All that means is that SMN is an MP battery; not a better healer. The only reason people want us in parties in a healing role is because we have the MP supply to back up the many, many, many small cures we will have to throw out. And that's based on us not keeping an avatar out.



Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 8:55am by Squintik
#75 Oct 22 2009 at 8:32 AM Rating: Default
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you guys dont think the, suppresses avater power, or whatever could mean OTHER avaters? i mean your recieving the favor of one avater, why wouldnt the other avaters not want to help you as much since you dont have their favor or whatever. thats probably the "negative" to the stance like always. and it probably is a ja so smn cant just keep switching around, i mean you can hit one and then go to the other, but then you have to wait 5 min for the first one, if it was a jt, they would basically all be in effect at once.
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#76 Oct 22 2009 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Unclear wrote:
There's not any real update notes that say the avatar will be weakened is there? Besides the one people translated from the other site, there isn't anything..definate?


It's on all other language versions of the playonline FF11 page. English is the only one that got left without a mention of avatars becoming weakened. I guess they assumed that we'd understand that "channels the avatar's power" means that its power is used to give the effect. I didn't at first, but now I think I see what they meant.

From the French page:
Quote:
Diminue la puissance de l'avatar en échange d'un effet protecteur donné par celui-ci. Le coût magique de l'avatar est réduit sous cet effet.


I can't even speak French but I can understand it a bit. I'm pretty sure the beginning there says "Decreases the power of the avatar in exchange..."

An online translation of the German page, since I understand that less, gives:
Quote:
Your Avatar gives a positive status effect to group members in the effective range and thereby is weakened. While the duration of effect are reduced maintenance costs.


And someone already mentioned that the Japanese version of the page also says this.

relmmagus wrote:
you guys dont think the, suppresses avater power, or whatever could mean OTHER avaters?


I see what you're saying, and this is how I imagined it would work when I first thought of a system like this (before they announced it). However, it seems to point to the avatar you're currently using in every case.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2009 1:25pm by Ildon
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