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The update is hereFollow

#1 Oct 21 2009 at 4:56 AM Rating: Good
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and it is win

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11eu/detail/4978/detail.html



Summoner
A new ability will be added for summoners, and with it, a brand new way for these masters of forbidden magic to lend their powers to party battles.

Avatar's Favor (Lv.55 Recast Time: 5 minutes Duration: 2 hours)
Channels the avatar's power towards a beneficial status effect for party members within range. Reduces perpetuation cost while active.


Carbuncle's favor = Regen
Ifrit's favor = improved "Double Attack" rate
Shiva's Favor = enhanced magic attack
Garuda's favor = enhanced evasion
Titan's favor = enhanced defense
Ramuh's favor = improved critical hit rate
Leviathan's favor = enhanced magic accuracy
Fenrir's favor = enhanced magic evasion
Diabolos' favor = Refresh

By summoning an avatar while this ability is active, a corresponding beneficial effect from above table will be granted to all party members within range of the avatar. The effect's potency will gradually increase until the avatar is released, and at its peak, can be expected to reach levels equal to those granted by the corsair's lucky number roll.
While multiple favors of the same variety will not be stackable, a single party can benefit from as many types as there are summoners. Furthermore, enhancements received through this ability can be used in conjunction with those received via magic spells, songs, the Phantom Roll ability, and so forth.



Edited, Oct 21st 2009 7:00am by theIronQuitter
#2 Oct 21 2009 at 4:58 AM Rating: Decent
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hmmmm i wonder if these effects will affect the avatars themselves..
double attack etc..
or Shiva using her own magic attk+ for heavenly strike

and would a diabolos with lowered perp cost and its own refresh make it, free?
(-perp gear allowing)

hmm HMMM i say!

oh lord and i just realised the effect of this in campaign hahahahaa
i'll be refreshing about 40 people at once.. or giving them all double attack >.<



Edited, Oct 21st 2009 7:04am by Rostofff
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#3 Oct 21 2009 at 5:02 AM Rating: Good
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I'm just hoping they make it so the effects hit us lol
#4 Oct 21 2009 at 5:03 AM Rating: Decent
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lol ya!
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37 WHITEMAGE
37 NINJA
37 SAMURAI
37 Dragoon
37 Thf
37 Warrior
O.o
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#5 Oct 21 2009 at 5:07 AM Rating: Decent
32 posts
i can't wait to see what the -perp cost is like and it's great there's no downside to using it like the ninja abilities last update


Edited, Oct 21st 2009 7:08am by theIronQuitter
#6 Oct 21 2009 at 5:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Rostofff wrote:
hmmmm i wonder if these effects will affect the avatars themselves..
double attack etc..
or Shiva using her own magic attk+ for heavenly strike

and would a diabolos with lowered perp cost and its own refresh make it, free?
(-perp gear allowing)

hmm HMMM i say!

oh lord and i just realised the effect of this in campaign hahahahaa
i'll be refreshing about 40 people at once.. or giving them all double attack >.<



Edited, Oct 21st 2009 7:04am by Rostofff


I had the exact same questions about Shiva/Leviathan and Diabolos. Additionally, it could have rather strange ramifications for merit parties.
#7 Oct 21 2009 at 5:23 AM Rating: Good
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Rostofff wrote:

and would a diabolos with lowered perp cost and its own refresh make it, free?
(-perp gear allowing)
Edited, Oct 21st 2009 7:04am by Rostofff



Most likely. At it's maximum potency, Diabolo's Refresh should be 3mp/tick. Outside of weather/day/location specific gear, the best you can do is get him down to 1mp/tick (unless you have Nirvana. This doesn't account for the reduced perp cost that the new ability gives. If the cost reduction is high enough, we may be able to have Refresh while he is out if we add on a Refresh body piece.

I REALLY hope these favors affect the avatars as well. It would finally give them the individualization I've wanted and really help out Shiva, Ramuh and Ifrit. It would also make Garuda an even better choice for soloing.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't a COR roll that enhances physical defense is there? I wonder how potent that will be.

I'm quite excited!


**Edit**
I just took a look at the Japanese POL site. Their description makes it sound as if the avatars will be weakened while this ability is up. I have to admit that I'm not surprised. We will have to wait and see if this is true and if so, how much are they weakened. It might force us to choose between support and DD and I can't think of too many situations where the former wouldn't be chosen.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 8:02am by Sasaraixx
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#8 Oct 21 2009 at 6:19 AM Rating: Good
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I hope they go to the avatar too. It would really make the avatar themselves "different", it all depends on how far these avatars perpet gets reduced, if it gets to the point where we can actually replace gear that has -perpet to gear that is useful to us.

I mean, Ifrit, 12% double attack..is nice, but you know, on something like Shiva, 10 MAB + fay weapon + expansion body alone, is a great boost to her merit pacts. I don't even see a magic accuracy boost for wiki, but I would be happy to have that in there for when we need to land some useful things like gravity, sleeps etc..

You know, Diabolos having him -perpet and - more perpet b/c of his 3 mp a tick refresh is most likely good enough to keep him out.

It now all depends on how far the perpet is reduced by, if it's by half? 1/3? as long as it lets us keep avatars out this update will be a big boost for us.

Either way, fun and great update, I cannot wait until it comes out so we can use it. I hope our new avatars, if we get them, have some nice favors to them as well. Store TP? something great and fun. Either way, as long as you have a great reduced perpet cost and we're nt suffering from the perpet, we're good.
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#9 Oct 21 2009 at 6:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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It always annoys me when SE adds an ability with a short recast, a long duration, and a benefit that you'd be crazy not to full-time - because usually that sort of thing would be better-served as a job trait, not an ability you have to activate. The very fact that it isn't a trait suggests to me that "Avatar's Favor" will be susceptible to Dispel. I'm only speculating of course, but SE never adds a tremendous positive without there being a negative to keep it in balance.

Aside from that though, I'm excited about this update and can't wait to try out the ability. It's about **** time we were given a purpose in exp parties as an actual Summoner!

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 10:39am by Squintik
#10 Oct 21 2009 at 6:40 AM Rating: Good
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I must admit this is rather neat, and it was a pretty well thought out way to get summoners more requested. I'm interested to see what exactly Fenrir's "Magic Evasion" will do personally.

I wonder if summoners are gunna get that new avatar this update though, and if it will also have a corresponding favor...
#11 Oct 21 2009 at 6:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rostofff wrote:
oh lord and i just realised the effect of this in campaign hahahahaa
i'll be refreshing about 40 people at once.. or giving them all double attack >.<


If the ability works like Corsair rolls, this probably won't work in Campaign. It'll affect anyone you're directly partied with, but not everyone with allied tags.
#12 Oct 21 2009 at 6:45 AM Rating: Good
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the update states that party members in range will receive these beneficial effects. i hope the range doesn't suck.
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#13 Oct 21 2009 at 6:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The effect's potency will gradually increase until the avatar is released, and at its peak, can be expected to reach levels equal to those granted by the corsair's lucky number roll.


Will be interesting to see how long it takes for a favor to fully charge, if it remains activate if the summon is released and if so for how long. A free fighter's or rogue's roll could definitely give incentives for summoners to be included in melee heavy parties.

Shiva, Leviathan, and Diabolos look like they have pretty solid buffs, my only concern is if you need to be in proximity to the avatar then the avatars are the only ones going to be receiving the buff (since mages are generally not nearby).

I'm also very confused why this is a JA instead of a JT too... it doesn't really count as a stance if it should be and can be active without any penalties. Unless they're planning on adding some sort of JA to increase perp cost for a boost, this seems much, much more useful as a job trait so it can't be dispelled.
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#14 Oct 21 2009 at 7:02 AM Rating: Decent
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yay going to make diablos near mandatory to get, now i gotta stop slacking and get a group that can beat him lol.
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#15 Oct 21 2009 at 7:03 AM Rating: Good
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Requim wrote:

I'm also very confused why this is a JA instead of a JT too... it doesn't really count as a stance if it should be and can be active without any penalties. Unless they're planning on adding some sort of JA to increase perp cost for a boost, this seems much, much more useful as a job trait so it can't be dispelled.


There are reports that other language websites (German, JP, etc) state the avatars will somehow be weakened while its active. Maybe this is why its a JA and not a JT, in case the negative effect is too harsh for some cases?
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#16 Oct 21 2009 at 7:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Edited, Oct 21st 2009 4:42pm by Jinte
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#17 Oct 21 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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You know I think the recast timer on there is so you don't spam the favors. Think of it like this, you summon Titan for your PLD for say ultima, strait tanking and then you see the countdown begin. PLD switches gears, and you pull out new avatar Fenrir for his Magic Evasion favor, which to me if it acts like Death Blossom but on the flip side it will help with a lot with resists, then once it's over go back to Titan.

This way we're not restricted to summon, favor, release method because people will take a boost but only what they need, even if the magic evasion boost is small at first, it's something.

That's why I think there's a 5 min recast, and for 2hrs? well that's really not an issue, I mean SCH's arts are the same duration, and you will rarely notice it unless you're doing something that turns to be a lengthy process.

Still, if that's the drawback I say we won here. All I want to know is how much perpet is reduced, it would be nice for early summoners to use this ability and with it not have such large perpet restrictions so that you have to reach 75 gear just to be able to maintain the avatar.
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#18 Oct 21 2009 at 7:08 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not gonna jump to conclusions, but i think there's a part 3 they're planning to keep secret until later. The way this is set up right now just doesn't make any sense. I was expecting to see an opposite ability for increased perpetuation for a boost in dmg, attack speed, magic acc, magic attack, evasion, defense, magic resistance, etc.
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#19 Oct 21 2009 at 7:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I can see summoners fitting nicely into a BLM party with this though.
Diabolos out for refresh.. AND dream shroud, and nether blast, depending on enemy.
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#20 Oct 21 2009 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Admiral Jinte wrote:
Quote:
The effect's potency will gradually increase until the avatar is released, and at its peak, can be expected to reach levels equal to those granted by the corsair's lucky number roll.


Carbuncle's favor = Regen (11 Dancer's Roll: 14 hp/tick / 17 hp/tick (w/o dnc / w/ dnc))
Ifrit's favor = improved "Double Attack" rate (11 Fighter's Roll: 18%/24% (w/o war / w/ war))
Shiva's Favor = enhanced magic attack (11 Wizard's Roll: +12/+16 (w/o blm / w/ blm))
Garuda's favor = enhanced evasion (11 Ninja Roll: +50/+65 (w/o nin / w/ nin))
Titan's favor = enhanced defense (Best Guess, 11 Chaos Roll, applied to defense: +31%/+41% (w/o def job/ w/ def job))
Ramuh's favor = improved critical hit rate (11 Rogue's Roll: 18%/24% (w/o thf / w/ thf))
Leviathan's favor = enhanced magic accuracy (11 Warlock's Roll: No Numbers Available that I know of)
Fenrir's favor = enhanced magic evasion (Best Guess, 11 Warlock's Roll applied to Magic evasion: See above comment about Warlock's Roll)
Diabolos' favor = Refresh (11 Evoker's Roll: 4 mp/tick / 5 mp/tick (w/o smn / w/ smn))


XI is not the lucky number for COR. It gives the most powerful buff, but it is not the lucky number. Each roll has its own lucky number. Chaos Roll, for example, has IV as its lucky number. So all of the buffs you stated are more powerful than what I think you should be expecting.
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#21 Oct 21 2009 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sasaraixx wrote:
I just took a look at the Japanese POL site. Their description makes it sound as if the avatars will be weakened while this ability is up.


I was wondering if that would be the case. If it is, and depending on how much avatars are weakened by, this may negate the party benefits. Parties love to have Corsairs and Bards for their rolls and songs, but those jobs usually fulfill other important roles in addition to buffing - namely pulling, sleeping links, and in the case of Corsair, some DD. Summoners aren't particularly effective at pulling (not in merit parties, anyway), and can't sleep links too well - so our only other purpose in a party would be DD and healing. If our avatars are weakened while "Avatar's Favor" is up, our DD capabilities will take a hit. And if we're keeping our avatars out to maintain the party effect, even with the perp reduction, we won't have the mp pool to effectively heal party members. So that means we probably still won't be as desirable in party situations, not when there are bards and corsairs available.

I'm guessing that if we are invited to parties, it'll still be as main healer. The only difference is that now, we'll be using "Avatar's Favor" + Carbuncle for party regen in addition to casting healing spells. Since Carby is free by 55 anyway and we can keep him out, the party regen bonus will have a chance to reach maximum effect.
#22 Oct 21 2009 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
It's a stance move like velocity shot/hasso/light arts, so I'm sure it has a negative effect like weakenening the avatar somehow. Let's just PRAY it isn't increased Blood Pact timers,although that would be balanced...

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 7:07am by TheHolyDragoonSeraphus
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#23 Oct 21 2009 at 8:25 AM Rating: Decent
This update makes me very happy. I'm just a little sad that they didn't call it Junction, though.

You're an old Alla Smn poster if you get that.
#24 Oct 21 2009 at 8:25 AM Rating: Default
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composure for rdm has same duration and recast just hope this doesnt wear off when u zone hate that when campaign bouncing
#25 Oct 21 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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I would like to preface all of my future ramblings with the fact that I hate stances.

Admiral Jinte wrote:
As for perp cost, well, that's your deal, I wouldn't even know where to start. Have fun theory crafting until the update Smiley: lol

There's not much to theorycraft. Good SMNs can get Carby free, Fenrir and Garuda 2 MP perp, and the others 4 MP without relying on outside Refresh, Weather, or Day. Makes me doubt that the reduction will be more than a handful of MP, 2-4 probably. 4 would be great, because it makes everything free and you could potentially activate Yinyang Robe on more than just Carby. The avatars will undoubtedly get weakened under it, but it means is we're not spending more MP than the initial summon cost to give people Favors, so it's not taking away resources to do our active jobs.

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You're an old Alla Smn poster if you get that.
Hardly old, wasn't even a year ago.
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#26 Oct 21 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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Squintik wrote:


I was wondering if that would be the case. If it is, and depending on how much avatars are weakened by, this may negate the party benefits. Parties love to have Corsairs and Bards for their rolls and songs, but those jobs usually fulfill other important roles in addition to buffing - namely pulling, sleeping links, and in the case of Corsair, some DD. Summoners aren't particularly effective at pulling (not in merit parties, anyway), and can't sleep links too well - so our only other purpose in a party would be DD and healing. If our avatars are weakened while "Avatar's Favor" is up, our DD capabilities will take a hit. And if we're keeping our avatars out to maintain the party effect, even with the perp reduction, we won't have the mp pool to effectively heal party members. So that means we probably still won't be as desirable in party situations, not when there are bards and corsairs available.

I'm guessing that if we are invited to parties, it'll still be as main healer. The only difference is that now, we'll be using "Avatar's Favor" + Carbuncle for party regen in addition to casting healing spells. Since Carby is free by 55 anyway and we can keep him out, the party regen bonus will have a chance to reach maximum effect.


The exact text is, 召喚獣の力を抑える代わりに

I can't think of any other way to translate it other than "In exchange for supressing the avatars power."

We will have to wait and see 1) how large/what kind of a penalty the avatars receive and 2) how long it takes to max out the favors. It could be a reduction in Rage power or it may increase the Blood Pact timer or prevent use of Blood Pacts entirely!

The longer it takes to reach the max boost, the more discouraged you will be from releasing avatars. You also have to have the ability active when you summon the avatar so there's no getting in a BP and then activating the favor.

I don't forsee MP management being a problem though. You can already get the costs down to 2 or 4 depending on the avatar. If we're talking endgame events, you will have at least 1 form of refresh. Add that with the reduction in perp cost and I think we're almost guaranteed to have free avatars with some refresh left over.

Quote:

The very fact that it isn't a trait suggests to me that "Avatar's Favor" will be susceptible to Dispel.


I don't see how that would be possible. The description makes it sound as though you must be within the avatar's range in order to receive the bonus. So if you had Garuda meleeing the mob and you are as well, then you get the evasion bonus. Run to the back line and you loose it. Run back in again and you get it back. I'm not sure how you could dispel the effect off of a player as the real effect rests on the avatar. Now, if it is dispelable off of the avatars themselves then that would be a HUGE problem. However, the ability is on the Summoner herself, so I don't see how that would work. I wouldn't put it past SE though . . .

I'm just going to remain midly optimistic until the update when I can test it out for myself.
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#27 Oct 21 2009 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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Requim wrote:


Shiva, Leviathan, and Diabolos look like they have pretty solid buffs, my only concern is if you need to be in proximity to the avatar then the avatars are the only ones going to be receiving the buff (since mages are generally not nearby).


Well, 2 of those 3 avatars best moves are ranged attacks (Heavenly Strike and Nether Blast). Putting aside whatever the negative effect of this JA may be, you could theoretically leave Shiva and Diabolos summoned but not engaged on the mob. The mages can receive the favor and you can launch your attakcs from a distance.
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#28 Oct 21 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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looks cool but i expect some kind of downside. weakened avatars sounds very possible, be it weakened pacts or something similar.

maybe skill related, maybe a set % skill loss on pacts, could affect the accuraccy of offensive pacts or the duration of wards with the ja active,

would kinda make sense, your avatars would be a bit weaker as a loss of skill would be a loss of accuracy on rage pacts and also kill the duration of various ward pacts. even something small like a 10% loss in skill could see you needing to find and stack over 60 to keep hastega capped with the ja up.

but either way just a theory.

edit:- also like someone above said it wont make smn as desirable as cor/brd. it never will. since favors are linked to the avatar you're restricted to 1 at a time, so gonna be impossible to have like a refresh favor on your mages and a double attack favour on your melee. but stacking it with existing wards may work well, keeping the party hasted with garuda while being able to keep your pld and blus refreshed for example. aside from the loss of potency everytime you swap avatars to put a ward up,

all that said though it's still something i imagine i'm going to have a lot of fun playing around with :) just waiting to see how it all works out.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 11:18am by Dzian
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#29 Oct 21 2009 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Admiral Jinte wrote:
Quote:
The effect's potency will gradually increase until the avatar is released, and at its peak, can be expected to reach levels equal to those granted by the corsair's lucky number roll.

Carbuncle's favor = Regen (11 Dancer's Roll: 14 hp/tick / 17 hp/tick (w/o dnc / w/ dnc))
Ifrit's favor = improved "Double Attack" rate (11 Fighter's Roll: 18%/24% (w/o war / w/ war))
Shiva's Favor = enhanced magic attack (11 Wizard's Roll: +12/+16 (w/o blm / w/ blm))
Garuda's favor = enhanced evasion (11 Ninja Roll: +50/+65 (w/o nin / w/ nin))
Titan's favor = enhanced defense (Best Guess, 11 Chaos Roll, applied to defense: +31%/+41% (w/o def job/ w/ def job))
Ramuh's favor = improved critical hit rate (11 Rogue's Roll: 18%/24% (w/o thf / w/ thf))
Leviathan's favor = enhanced magic accuracy (11 Warlock's Roll: No Numbers Available that I know of)
Fenrir's favor = enhanced magic evasion (Best Guess, 11 Warlock's Roll applied to Magic evasion: See above comment about Warlock's Roll)
Diabolos' favor = Refresh (11 Evoker's Roll: 4 mp/tick / 5 mp/tick (w/o smn / w/ smn))

XI is not the lucky number for COR. It gives the most powerful buff, but it is not the lucky number. Each roll has its own lucky number. Chaos Roll, for example, has IV as its lucky number. So all of the buffs you stated are more powerful than what I think you should be expecting.


Yup, XI is the perfect number for COR not Lucky Number... .. Hooray for SMNs..
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#30 Oct 21 2009 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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Rostofff wrote:
I can see summoners fitting nicely into a BLM party with this though.
Diabolos out for refresh.. AND dream shroud, and nether blast, depending on enemy.


Actually, I thought a SMN would be a nice addition to a BLM pt in dynamis. Not only for the reasons you mentioned, but for Nightmare as well.
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#31 Oct 21 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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SylphiaOnFairyServer wrote:
This update makes me very happy. I'm just a little sad that they didn't call it Junction, though.

You're an old Alla Smn poster if you get that.


Heh, hi again Sylphia. Yes, I remember, it was a year ago next month ^^
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#32 Oct 21 2009 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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Holy ****, what the heck is Mellowy going to complain about now?
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#33 Oct 21 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Rostofff wrote:
hmmmm i wonder if these effects will affect the avatars themselves..
double attack etc..
or Shiva using her own magic attk+ for heavenly strike


Considering Corsair rolls and Bard songs, S-E usually specifies when a buff effects pets. "Pets" for the purposes of COR rolls include avatars, automatons, summoned and charmed beast pets, and DRG's wyverns. BRD songs don't effect pets.

When pets are effected, it seems that they are directly specified by a "pet buff". COR has Drachen Roll for Pet MAB/M.Acc, but Warlock's/Wizard's Rolls (M.Acc and MAB) do not effect pets. Beast/Puppet Rolls are for pet Atk/Acc, but Chaos/Hunter's are only for player Atk/Acc.

Remember too that Dancer's sambas initially helped pets, but S-E quickly stepped in and changed that. It seems that S-E is generally pretty reluctant to let pets get buffs intended for players.
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#34 Oct 21 2009 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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RusticusSageo wrote:
Quote:
Admiral Jinte wrote:
Quote:
The effect's potency will gradually increase until the avatar is released, and at its peak, can be expected to reach levels equal to those granted by the corsair's lucky number roll.

Carbuncle's favor = Regen (11 Dancer's Roll: 14 hp/tick / 17 hp/tick (w/o dnc / w/ dnc))
Ifrit's favor = improved "Double Attack" rate (11 Fighter's Roll: 18%/24% (w/o war / w/ war))
Shiva's Favor = enhanced magic attack (11 Wizard's Roll: +12/+16 (w/o blm / w/ blm))
Garuda's favor = enhanced evasion (11 Ninja Roll: +50/+65 (w/o nin / w/ nin))
Titan's favor = enhanced defense (Best Guess, 11 Chaos Roll, applied to defense: +31%/+41% (w/o def job/ w/ def job))
Ramuh's favor = improved critical hit rate (11 Rogue's Roll: 18%/24% (w/o thf / w/ thf))
Leviathan's favor = enhanced magic accuracy (11 Warlock's Roll: No Numbers Available that I know of)
Fenrir's favor = enhanced magic evasion (Best Guess, 11 Warlock's Roll applied to Magic evasion: See above comment about Warlock's Roll)
Diabolos' favor = Refresh (11 Evoker's Roll: 4 mp/tick / 5 mp/tick (w/o smn / w/ smn))

XI is not the lucky number for COR. It gives the most powerful buff, but it is not the lucky number. Each roll has its own lucky number. Chaos Roll, for example, has IV as its lucky number. So all of the buffs you stated are more powerful than what I think you should be expecting.


Yup, XI is the perfect number for COR not Lucky Number... .. Hooray for SMNs..


Not to mention Warlock's Roll's values are known. Lucky Number buff is 10 Macc and 14 Macc with rdm.

Edit: The reference to cor buffs with regard to the smn update and the fact that Titan buffs physical defense makes me wonder why cor doesn't have this available (on gallant's roll would make sense to me). Oh well, gratz smn's looks like a nice update for you guys. ^^

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 12:21pm by tmlane
#35 Oct 21 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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jlejeune wrote:

so it's not taking away resources to do our active jobs.


Yes it does. You can't /heal MP. The cost is way greater than you think if it actually does weaken BP.

If the weakness is large enough, SMN would still be useless only now instead of BP, release, /heal. It's summon, favor and... nothing.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 1:32pm by taishokukanoki
#36 Oct 21 2009 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
wth is Mellowy?
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#37 Oct 21 2009 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Priphea wrote:
Holy ****, what the heck is Mellowy going to complain about now?


He'll find something. Spirits were ignored, I see.
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#38 Oct 21 2009 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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wth is Mellowy?


<Found it!>:

Mellowy wrote:
Sigh. Fail update again.

Pros:

1. Summoners can now buff as well as CORs after level 55. (So we only suck for 55 levels now)
2. Lowered perpetuation was about time!
3. SMN burns should be pretty good now with up to 6 corsair buffs at max potency after a while.

Cons:

1. Now you can choose between Garuda with Hastega + Evasion up + level 5 Wind blade (The regular average SMN setup) or Titan with Stoneskin + Defense bonus + level 5 Geocrush (second most normal setup) ALTERNATIVELY Ifrit for LOLWARCRY + LOLPUNCH + DA bonus or Ramuh for LOLSPIKES + possibly 75 BP thunderstorm + Crit rate.

I.e. Either you use good wards and good merit pacts or you use good auras. No avatar has all three.

2. No ward updates. Yea, so we still have no reason to use anything but hastega, and only at 70+ with enough +skill.

3. No spirit updates. SE officially showed that spirits are dead and they couldn't care less about them. Considering they don't care for 8 magic pets, I see no future for the puppet mage frames.




As always, it is a good update done wrong. Here is how any SANE person would have made it:

Avatar's Favor (Lv.55 Recast Time: 5 minutes Duration: 2 hours)
Channels the avatar's power towards a beneficial status effect for party members within range. Reduces perpetuation cost and gives haste effect on pets while active.

Under this status the Summoner receives a third BP timer called Aura that allow you to select the following AOE buffs around your avatar.

<insert same image as in update notes>

PS. The effects also apply to pets.


I kid you not.
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#39 Oct 21 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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I thought you would have figured out by now that SE only cares about pure melee jobs and is only able to understand how melee jobs operate in their own game. They have no idea how to balance mages and pet jobs let alone how to give them abilities that's actually useful.

SE gives mages and pet jobs "interesting" abilities that has no place in the game. That's why I wouldn't be playing FFIV, it's made bey the same Devs and I have no confidence in their ability to make mages fun.
#40 Oct 21 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mellowy wrote:
Sigh. Fail update again.

Pros:

1. Summoners can now buff as well as CORs after level 55. (So we only suck for 55 levels now)


No, you can't buff "as well as CORs". You can just buff better than SMN used to be able to.

COR = can have two different buffs on each party member, and can have different buffs on different players. SMN = One party buff at a time, active on everyone in range.

COR = is not restricted from doing anything else while buffs are active (e.g. DD). SMN = is restricted in that you can't change avatar, and favors possibly weaken the active avatar.

SMN appears to be able to equal a lucky # COR roll for similar effects, but not the highest strength COR roll (XI, which is always better than a lucky). And that's "at its peak", with the update notes saying the strength of the effect is "gradually increasing". So as soon as you put up the buff, it won't be equal to a lucky COR roll.
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#41 Oct 21 2009 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Anza wrote:
Mellowy wrote:
Sigh. Fail update again.

Pros:

1. Summoners can now buff as well as CORs after level 55. (So we only suck for 55 levels now)


No, you can't buff "as well as CORs". You can just buff better than SMN used to be able to.

COR = can have two different buffs on each party member, and can have different buffs on different players. SMN = One party buff at a time, active on everyone in range.

COR = is not restricted from doing anything else while buffs are active (e.g. DD). SMN = is restricted in that you can't change avatar, and favors possibly weaken the active avatar.

SMN appears to be able to equal a lucky # COR roll for similar effects, but not the highest strength COR roll (XI, which is always better than a lucky). And that's "at its peak", with the update notes saying the strength of the effect is "gradually increasing". So as soon as you put up the buff, it won't be equal to a lucky COR roll.


It really depends on how long it takes for your respective buff to max out.

I know it's not going to be the same as a maxed out cor buff, but a cor getting constant XI's on a buff (the only roll stronger than a lucky) is not going to happen very often. SMN's getting the consistency of a cor buff without the dangers of a bust or a bad roll (both strong possibilities for a cor and the job's key drawback).
#42 Oct 21 2009 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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tmlane wrote:

cor buff without the dangers of a bust or a bad roll (both strong possibilities for a cor and the job's key drawback).


Merit allows COR to make their buffs much more consistent on the high end.
#43 Oct 21 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
No, you can't buff "as well as CORs". You can just buff better than SMN used to be able to.


You know, I TRIED to sound at least a little positive. Sadly it backfired as "OMG, that is wrong. It won't be that good!".



But there are several things I fear, and that will come true (After all, this update was exactly what I feared).

1. No Favors will land on pets. They stack with songs, rolls etc, so obviously SE was thinking "yea, this will work just as normal buffs".

2. There will be a damage decrease when the ability is on (about 25% avatar attack reduction)

3. It will take about 3 min to gain full power. Just "randomly" the same duration your pacts are so you can never keep a ward on AND max potency.

4. If you ever get a party invite post 55, they'll tell you to use ifrit or get lost.



Of course with this I've set my expectations so low that I can't be anything but pleasantly surprised.
#44 Oct 21 2009 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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taishokukanoki wrote:
tmlane wrote:

cor buff without the dangers of a bust or a bad roll (both strong possibilities for a cor and the job's key drawback).


Merit allows COR to make their buffs much more consistent on the high end.


Snake eye and Fold(the abilities you're referencing) do not guarantee consistent lucky rolls or XI's on a Cor's respective buffs (which is what they're going to need to match one of these Aura's these avatars give at peak strength). The chance for an inadequate buff is still very likely.

I think it sounds like a fair tradeoff. 1 Cor buff of value equal to a lucky roll up at all times is very good (this is still up in the air since it's unknown how long it takes to reach this level). Having anything more could potentially be overpowering.
#45 Oct 21 2009 at 2:32 PM Rating: Default
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I'm pretty pleased. This will also bring more focus to what the job could already do before hand. So many times I'm asked why Summoner is my favorite job. "Isn't it boring to play?" "Well, now all summoner's are is AF burning dummies." "You have too many restrictions."

Or even more focus to what the job can't do. No, I can't use 2 ward pacts back to back.

Hopefully now it wont be a job that's viewed so simply. Summoner has always been much more complex than people have given credit for, if you ask me.
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#46 Oct 21 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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i think it's a bit of a dis to not put the +DA/crit (or ****, +haste) on garuda, since that would be a real boon for SMN in merit parties. other than that, it looks like a really strong update, especially the magic stuff.
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#47 Oct 21 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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milich wrote:
i think it's a bit of a dis to not put the +DA/crit (or ****, +haste) on garuda, since that would be a real boon for SMN in merit parties. other than that, it looks like a really strong update, especially the magic stuff.


{True strike.}

My initial reaction to the update announcement was 4 Blm 1 Cor 1 Smn pt for some extra magic power at ls events.
#48 Oct 21 2009 at 2:54 PM Rating: Default
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tmlane wrote:

Snake eye and Fold(the abilities you're referencing) do not guarantee consistent lucky rolls or XI's on a Cor's respective buffs (which is what they're going to need to match one of these Aura's these avatars give at peak strength). The chance for an inadequate buff is still very likely.


It doesn't guarantee consistent roll number, but it does provide a statistical increase to occurrence of higher results and a statistical decrease to the odds of a bust. (IE you don't need to double up/re-roll for higher number)

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 4:55pm by taishokukanoki

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 4:55pm by taishokukanoki
#49 Oct 21 2009 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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But it isn't all the time. It will completely depend on how long it takes. It would be nice if it grew as fast as glittering ruby shrinks.
#50 Oct 21 2009 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Not gunna do my old school choo-choo's but I'll just go in order

"Why is it an Ability not a trait"
Because it's only logical to expect a negative side effect that SE doesn't want us to spam back and forth between the 2 options, and assume we'll just choose one or the other. I'm thinking along the lines of Hasso/Seigan and whatever the new Nin 2 abilities were. But instead of giving us 3 choices (depending on part 3 of the update) we only get 2. Normal avatars where we can BP>Release>Repeat in a DD role (loose term) or Weakened Avatars that support the party.

"Will the pet get the buff as well"
Assuming the above is the way it will actually work, I doubt the pet will get the buff, although a weakend pet + a buffed pet = back to a normal strength pet? It will all depend on what the 'weakened' pet will constitute. Few Idea's already thrown out, BP timer, Smn skill, etc etc.

Looking at a few of these, My first guess, and probably (imo) most preferable, is double blood pact timers. At first thought there will be a lot of complaints, but assuming most of us are near 45 second recast as is, we're only looking at 1:30 timer. That's not really that bad when considering any of our Ward's normally used. In fact, it fits perfectly assuming our durations are 3 minutes. All buffs will still be active as before with no change. Hastega, Howl, and any other party buff used, is expected a 3 min duration, and your recast won't matter, unless you're keeping 3 wards on as is, and there are very few of you who do keep 3 buffs active. The reason this is my first guess, is because it's the same concept as hasso. But again it's just a guess.

Second possibility, someone mentioned a reduction in Smn Skill. While this would solve a handful of complaints of "Why did I spend this much time/effort getting 340+ Smn Skill, if I see no effect after the ~310 mark on anything but Siphon?" A percentage cut to Smn Skill would emphasize the need for the better gear to reach the Smn skill needed under the negative effect. While I won't write this idea off, it's less likely to be implied, because SE won't like the idea of All the positives of the job ability, if the negative effects can be negated with enough +Smn Skill gear/merits.

Other possibilities, lower attack/accuracy, or a more delay. I don't foresee SE going through the work of alternative tables for avatar acc/att for this ability, but slowing the avatar attack speed down would be as easy as applying a constant 'slow' effect which would be easy, but again, I doubt this will be the actual down side, but who knows.

Going back to my first guess of double the blood pact timer, let's take a look at the other side of the spectrum. First I'll just say, yeah it will suck for wards like sleepga from shiva when we're solo'ing etc. But lets look at the Rage side. For anything End game, where Smn are the main DD, yeah, it'll be no good, but for party situations or other events you have to see the bigger picture.
We're comparing BP/Release 3 times a minute, vs 2 BP + 3 minutes of melee dmg, lower perp cost, and a party AoE bonus. That's not a bad payoff, and I've even willing to bet, that on merit mobs, 3 minutes of melee damage will be near the damage 1 BP provides on average.
>> Quick math side note << 320 delay = 5.3 seconds, 3min = 180sec 180/5.3 = 33 melee swings, 33*70%acc = 23 hits. (celestial based on enil's melee threads on birds)42 Damage a hit would mean 966 Damage in 3 minutes. Which more than likely is what you're probably averaging with most 70 Pacts. Assuming the lowest cut in perp is -1tick, 3 minutes, is 60mp. So for 100 less MP you get the same damage expected. Which looks good on paper, but 3 minutes of avatar out means zero /healing. So, you're actually losing MP overall, but not nearly as much as you'd think. We can get into the melee'ing with spirit taker discussion if you want, I'm not really up for it. But It's hard not to expect anyone to have a -3 Perp Fay Crozier by now, which has a decent 50 base Dmg, which isn't too horrible for Spirit Taker, espesually if you're macro'ing in Mnd/Int. But like I said, different story, different time. And then you have to start fighting the 'omg tp feeding' issues.

Side Note>>> Fenrir's expected melee dmg is 52 per hit, and he attacks @ 4.6 seconds, which is 39 swings in 3 min @ 80% acc = 31 landed hits = 1612 damage in 3 minutes. WAAAAYYYY more than you can expect from a 3rd Eclipse bite. And that's based on Merit Mobs. Add in the fact fenrir is already the cheaper avatar and you're looking at potential, but his AoE effect is not as desirable, but Ecliptic Howl can be useful for the Party. Again on the Melee thing, any avatar other than Garuda allows you to use Walmart Turban, and 5% haste is a chunk to gain when considering melee dmg.

For the Solo'ers... Assuming option 1 is correct, this will be huge. I can't see any down side to this for you, you should all be jumping for Joy. Especially after reading what I wrote above about Fenrir's DoT and MP. Also take into consideration, that the damage will be more than double above when applied to EP/DC mobs, due to the higher avg melee as well as higher Acc rate.

For the General Smn's, you wanted lower perp cost, and incentive to keep avatars out, congrats you got it. If you expected it to come without any downsides, be realistic. Although I agree even with zero down sides to this ability, I didn't see it being over powering, but, such is life. And as a 'hybrid' job SE is always trying to push us into 1 choice of 3 roles. No downsides would allow us to do multiple roles. This gives us more tools to choose between the 3. End Game DD won't see any change, but our healer and support roles will be more viable in game, giving back some options we use to have.

For the Main healers, If you remember the relief you got when we were given /sch for Regen 2 in merits, this is even better. We just got Regen3GA with no mp cost. Free, FREE carby WITHOUT the need for a light staff, means you can use martial staff for your spirit takers, and /healing shouldn't be an issue. You get to keep Carby out for 3 minutes at a time (assuming you're still going to be hastega'ing) and shouldn't run into any MP issues even with /whm casting the occasional cure 3's. I read a lot of people say "I wouldn't mind being the party's b*tch/healer if I could at least do it with my avatars because that's why my jobs suppose to be about!!!11one1!!" While not everyone agrees with this, we can all certainly agree it's a large step in the right direction, and even is support roles, running around with carby will always be a regen 3'ga

For the other kind of solo'ing... Carby Kiting!
Guess what? HUGE update for us as well. Hate Free Regen 3 on (lets say half the time) Obviously you won't be in range for regen constantly, but there's no reason you can't stay withing Regen range until <pethpp> reaches 50%, plus we don't always need hp. But this will definitely help in the extend carby kiting situations where casting carby over and over, slowly builds hate over time, and carby doesn't pull hate back after the first hit or two (or miss or two if you have my luck, lol)

Again, the above is all based on the assumption the only downside is BP timer being doubled, which as I said, I think is the most preferable downside listed so far. Well... Actually the -smn skill would be the easiest to overcome, lol. But for that specific reason I don't see it becoming the implemented downside.

Wall o text, but I've been quite for a while. :p
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#51 Oct 21 2009 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:
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No, you can't buff "as well as CORs". You can just buff better than SMN used to be able to.


You know, I TRIED to sound at least a little positive. Sadly it backfired as "OMG, that is wrong. It won't be that good!".


Well hey, people seem to be getting on you for not jumping for joy at the update. I'll balance it out a little and call out that overly optimistic statement ;)

Quote:
4. If you ever get a party invite post 55, they'll tell you to use ifrit or get lost.


How is that any different from any other job being expected to play a certain way? Parties expect a BRD to use Minuet/Madrigal on melees, Ballad on mages. They expect a COR to use Evoker's on mages and Chaos on DDs. RDMs are invited to parties to heal and refresh, not to cast Enspells and nukes.

And honestly, depending on party makeup it's really probably "Ifrit or Diabolos or get lost". Then you have Shiva's for a mage party or a particular event. The rest of the favors seem pretty situational.

Quote:
Of course with this I've set my expectations so low that I can't be anything but pleasantly surprised.


I *am* a bit surprised there's not more grumbling about no new avatars, after S-E actually talking about them in the past. People seem pretty positive in general about making SMN a clear third place buffing job (which it probably already was, this just pushes it closer to BRD COR). It's certainly a plus, and a way for SMNs to get lv.55+ party invites a lot easier. But I really don't think it's as fantasic as some people are making it out to be.

Edited, Oct 21st 2009 5:22pm by Anza
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