Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Nether Blast and Meteorite Testing ResultsFollow

#1 Aug 09 2009 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,181 posts
Nether Blast

Accurate Formula: Credit to Eiyui

(5 x Avatar's Level + 10) * MAB(of avatar)/MDB(of monster) * Day/Weather

*Diabolos is a BLM and has a MAB of 1.32 at Lv75.
*Ignores Resist Dark traits (Fomor, Skeles, Bats, etc)
*Ignores Magic Damage Taken-% i.e. Shell (but not Magic Defense Bonus+)
*Ignores Level of Target.
*Not affected by Diabolos' INT levels.
*Affected by Diabolos' MAB levels.
*Affected by Day/Weather (increase/decrease depending on element, same as elemental magic)

Meteorite

Approximate formula (not 100% accurate yet)

(500 + (Carbuncle INT - Monster INT) * 1.5 + TP/2) * MAB * Day/Weather

*Carbuncle's INT at Lv75 is 47.
*Affected by Day/Weather/Avatar MAB.


Methodology

Nether Blast
Took Diabolos out on a range of monsters (Lv30~Lv70), all dealt 508 damage. I wanted to see if it was dependant purely on his Level or if the level of his stats (primarily tested INT) affected damage. So I took him out on Lv30 monsters, with the following method:
SMN/SCH
1.Summon Diabolos.
2.Stone II monster - Record damage.
3.Command Ultimate Terror.
4.Nether Blast and cast Stone II whilst preparing move.

Stone II damage was used to determine the monster INT as damage formula is:
V+(cINT-mINT)*M = Damage
Where V=constant value, in this case 78, M was 1.0 and cINT was my INT.
Note: See http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Magic_Damage for more details.

Ultimate Terror absorbs a random amount of stats and gives those stats to Diabolos, an Absorb-All if you will. Of course, I didn't know when INT was being absorbed, so I needed to cast Stone II before and after, and only when I noticed a damage increase (because dINT was greater) did I know INT was absorbed. It was then that I did Nether Blast in order to determine if this added INT (on Diabolos) affected Nether Blast. It did not.

With that done, I knew it was purely down to Level. So I went to Promyvion, Summoned Diabolos and left, meaning back in La Theine Plateau I had a Lv30 Diabolos out, but yet it could still use Nether Blast.
Additional note: The perpetuation cost returns to max level however, SE ninja fixed this. A year or so ago, you could summon an avatar in a level capped zone then leave, and when you equipped your gear you could get a free diabolos.
This produced the following Nether Blasts in each level capped zone:
Lv 30 = 198
Lv 40 = 260
Lv 50 = 332
Lv 75 = 508
When plotted, this produces a (very nearly) straight line:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/kegsay/nb_chart.jpg

The line almost matched all values, but was still out by a little bit. This is where I worked out Avatar Level is calculated again, and selected the best match.

Meteorite
I first went to Tiny Mandragora in Sarutabaruta and played with Carbuncle's Stats using Glittering Ruby. When INT was boosted, Meteorite damage shot up a lot. TP did affect damage on a linear scale:
Carbuncle deals 8.3TP/hit
607 (TP 83.0%)+4
603 (TP 74.7%)+3
600 (TP66.4%)+4
596 (TP:58.1%)+2
594 (TP:49.8%)+4
590 (TP:41.5%)+4
586 (TP:33.2%)+3
583 (TP:24.9%)+4
579 (TP:16.6%)+3
576 (TP:8.3%)+4
572 (TP:0%)

Note: The +4 is the difference in extra damage from the one before it.

Knowing that Meteorite will most likely follow Elemental Magic for the layout of the formula, I started thinking how INT was tied into everything. But to do this, I would need to go to tougher monsters where I could determine the INT of the monster using Stone II. So I went to Lufaise Sheep and did the following:
1. Summon Carbuncle and use Glittering Ruby until INT was boosted on Carbuncle (note: This took me over 45mins!)
2. Stone II a sheep to determine INT.
3. Use Meteorite under two conditions:
-a. Carbuncle must not have hit the monster yet, else TP will boost damage.
-b. Must use Meteorite when stats boosted are +17 on myself, and therefore the same on Carbuncle.
Note: Carbuncle's Glittering Ruby effect decays from +18 down. I needed to BP when it was +17 from the issuing of the command to the log of damage.
4. Wait until the effect wears off, then BP again to determine damage of Meteorite without the +17 INT (since meteorite damage, unlike Nether Blast, is not consistent per monster)

Results showed that dINT was multiplied by 1.5 and added to 500, which matched my thoughts on Elemental Magic. It should be noted that on higher level monsters, a level correction is imposed, which reduces damage. I'm unsure how this affects the end damage.

More testing will be needed in order to create a perfect formula.


Edited, Aug 9th 2009 7:20pm by kegsay

Edited, Aug 9th 2009 7:21pm by kegsay

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 10:28am by kegsay

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 5:36pm by kegsay

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 5:37pm by kegsay
____________________________
Kegsay - 85SMN/85BLU/85SCH
Goldsmithing-60, Cooking-61, Synergy-60
Shaded Specs Obtained 20 June 2005

http://kegsay.livejournal.com/
#2 Aug 09 2009 at 7:29 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
34 posts
Nether Blast formula doesn't look right. If you assume Diabolos to have BLM as main job like other avatars, (level*5 + 10)*MAB fits all values you posted.

Also, you say "*Ignores Magic Defense i.e. Shell (but not Magical Damage Taken-%)", but shell counts as magic damage taken.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 5:30am by Eiyui

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 5:32am by Eiyui
#3 Aug 09 2009 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
**
886 posts
Thanks for taking the time to test this! Even if your calculations aren't all correct, the data can still be a useful base to determining what the real formula is. I'm not a math mage though, so I'll leave the checking to others. One thing that caught my eye though, was:

Quote:
*Carbuncle's INT at Lv75 is 47.


I find this a bit hard to swallow, as I can't even imagine a galka with the worst possible job/sub for INT hitting this low. And aren't all the avatar's jobs BLM? I would imagine carbuncle's INT to be much higher than this, but perhaps I'm wrong, or it calculates differently. That was what caught my eye though as something that might need more retesting though.

Thanks for helping out!

____________________________
Main Character: Psion
World: Phoenix
Resident of Windurst
75BLU/75PUP/70COR
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?186284
#4 Aug 10 2009 at 4:40 AM Rating: Decent
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
Carbuncle has auto-regen, so more likely that he is actually WHM job. (He even gets regen at 25 if I recall). Still 47 INT on a WHM is a bit unexpected. But I've always been under the impression avatars are relatively gimp on stats. My reasoning is that 8% attack from crimson howl never seem to do much for Ifrit.
#5 Aug 10 2009 at 5:47 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,181 posts
Quote:
*Ignores Magic Defense i.e. Shell (but not Magical Damage Taken-%)", but shell counts as magic damage taken.


Shell counts as Magic Defense Bonus, which during spell calculations is included, MAB/MDB.

Magic Damage Taken-% is different, this is calculated after the final result has been obtained, and then a % is taken off.

Test it if you wish, I watched a Fomor PLD in the Thickets be dealt 508 damage, then after using Shell III, still 508 damage.

Quote:
Nether Blast formula doesn't look right. If you assume Diabolos to have BLM as main job like other avatars, (level*5 + 10)*MAB fits all values you posted.


Thank you, I will take into account Diabolos' BLM main job when figuring out the calculation, but your equation isn't correct so please don't say it is.

Assuming MAB IV (so 1.32)
(Level*5+10)*MAB
Level/Actual/Calculated
30 = 198 / 211
40 = 260 / 277
50 = 332 / 343
75 = 508 / 508

Quote:
Carbuncle has auto-regen, so more likely that he is actually WHM job. (He even gets regen at 25 if I recall). Still 47 INT on a WHM is a bit unexpected.


I think the main reason for the low INT is that Avatars do not appear to have a subjob. The files I used to help me calculate attrributes were as follows:
Stat chart for each job (See bottom)
Ranking Calculations

WHM have Rank E in INT which gives them 25 base INT
If you assume the Race is Hume, or Rank D, that gives them an added 28 INT.
This indicates they have 53 INT, but its unknown if the increase in stats declines post-61 (like it does for PCs) or not (like it does for monsters).

E = 3+(Lv-1)*0.3 = 25
D = 3+(Lv-1)*0.35 = 28
Total: 53

Thank you for all the input, I shall make several revisions throughout today.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 9:47am by kegsay
____________________________
Kegsay - 85SMN/85BLU/85SCH
Goldsmithing-60, Cooking-61, Synergy-60
Shaded Specs Obtained 20 June 2005

http://kegsay.livejournal.com/
#6 Aug 10 2009 at 6:08 AM Rating: Good
***
3,059 posts
kegsay wrote:
Shell counts as Magic Defense Bonus, which during spell calculations is included, MAB/MDB.

Magic Damage Taken-% is different, this is calculated after the final result has been obtained, and then a % is taken off.

Test it if you wish, I watched a Fomor PLD in the Thickets be dealt 508 damage, then after using Shell III, still 508 damage.
Shell is -MDT, it counts towards the 50% cap of -MDT. There's a different reason Nether Blast ignores it somewhere, most likely because Nether Blast can be capable of bypassing (if not all, at least some) buffs.
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#7 Aug 10 2009 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,181 posts
Quote:
Shell is -MDT, it counts towards the 50% cap of -MDT. There's a different reason Nether Blast ignores it somewhere, most likely because Nether Blast can be capable of bypassing (if not all, at least some) buffs.


Ahh, duly noted. I have done further testing, and it supports that MDT-% is ignored, but MDB is not (RDM main job monsters take less damage). Updating the OP.
____________________________
Kegsay - 85SMN/85BLU/85SCH
Goldsmithing-60, Cooking-61, Synergy-60
Shaded Specs Obtained 20 June 2005

http://kegsay.livejournal.com/
#8 Aug 10 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
***
3,059 posts
kegsay wrote:
Ahh, duly noted. I have done further testing, and it supports that MDT-% is ignored, but MDB is not (RDM main job monsters take less damage). Updating the OP.
That makes a lot more sense. MDB is used directly against MAB, and if MAB works it stands to reason MDB will. -MDT is applied at the very end of magic damage formulas, so it's a trivial matter to truncate the formula before it's applied.
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#9 Aug 10 2009 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
164 posts
I suppose it's possible that Carbuncle has the stats of an Elvaan WHM with no sub. This would give him 47 INT. It would also give him the highest MND possible, if that matters for any of his abilities (Healing Ruby maybe?).

I'm also not sure if it's good to assume Diabolos is a BLM. If each MAB+1 is giving him +1% damage, then it seems likely that he doesn't have the MAB trait.
#10 Aug 10 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
****
7,451 posts
Mobs can have main and subjobs. Nearly every mob has Double Attack at level 25 and higher.

Using job traits is not a good estimate of Job Class.

It's more appropriate to consider the game itself when Carbuncle was introduced. Many things that were out then are obsolete or antiquated in today's Vana'diel.
____________________________
Before you ask a stupid crafting question, read this.
milich wrote:
Quote:
Everytime Arcturus sees this, he starts to die inside.......I know it D:
actually, i think every time Acturus is called Arcturus he dies inside.


Now THIS is PvP!

MNK ~ SMN ~ SCH
#11 Aug 10 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
****
7,451 posts
Also consider that most incidents of Carbuncle and the Celestials tend to cap at or around level ~68.

At level 68, a Hume BLM with no subjob has 59INT. Since it's common for us to refer to our Avatars as being at ~70% the potency of a naked PC at the same level, it's worth noting that 47INT is 79.6% of 59.

Along those lines, a Hume BLM with no sub at 75 has 63INT. 47INT is 74.6% of 63INT.

It falls in line with expected Avatar outputs and base stats being at about 75% the capacity of a naked PC at the same level.
____________________________
Before you ask a stupid crafting question, read this.
milich wrote:
Quote:
Everytime Arcturus sees this, he starts to die inside.......I know it D:
actually, i think every time Acturus is called Arcturus he dies inside.


Now THIS is PvP!

MNK ~ SMN ~ SCH
#12 Aug 10 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
34 posts
Quote:
Thank you, I will take into account Diabolos' BLM main job when figuring out the calculation, but your equation isn't correct so please don't say it is.

Assuming MAB IV (so 1.32)
(Level*5+10)*MAB
Level/Actual/Calculated
30 = 198 / 211
40 = 260 / 277
50 = 332 / 343
75 = 508 / 508

You're doing things wrong. BLM does NOT get 32 MAB at level 30, they get 20 at 10, 24 at 30, 28 at 50, and 32 at 70.

(30*5 + 10)*1.24 = 198
(40*5 + 10)*1.24 = 260
(50*5 + 10)*1.28 = 332
(75*5 + 10)*1.32 = 508

Everything adds up.

Edited, Aug 10th 2009 10:20pm by Eiyui
#13 Aug 10 2009 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,181 posts
Quote:
(30*5 + 10)*1.24 = 198
(40*5 + 10)*1.24 = 260
(50*5 + 10)*1.28 = 332
(75*5 + 10)*1.32 = 508


Ahh, my mistake, now I see where you're coming from. Thank you for your input, I'll update the OP with your formula.
____________________________
Kegsay - 85SMN/85BLU/85SCH
Goldsmithing-60, Cooking-61, Synergy-60
Shaded Specs Obtained 20 June 2005

http://kegsay.livejournal.com/
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 12 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (12)