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gimped summons?Follow

#1 Jul 29 2009 at 6:20 AM Rating: Decent
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i just returned to game after 2 years and was talking with somene telling me that if i did all the mini battles i would never be able to do anything end game with my summons that my avatars would be weakened ... is this so and is there anyway to fix this ? i did all summons solo this way long time ago before i left
#2 Jul 29 2009 at 6:24 AM Rating: Good
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There's no difference between Avatars obtained from the level 20 fights and ones obtained from the Prime fights. Your friend doesn't know what he/she is talking about.
#3 Jul 29 2009 at 7:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Blacklist the person that told you that because they're an idiot.
#4 Jul 29 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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Summons are summons are summons are summons. :)

Regardless of how you get them, they'll be in no way gimped because you got them from the solo 20 fight vs the regular prime fight. ^^
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#5 Jul 29 2009 at 11:34 PM Rating: Good
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lol this thread made me laugh.
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#6 Jul 30 2009 at 3:00 AM Rating: Excellent
It's sad and quite annoying that people still spout out this information to newer players when there's absolutely no truth behind it whatsoever. The avatars you get in the lv. 20 solo fights are absolutely identical to the ones you could get from the lv. 60+ party fights.
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#7 Jul 30 2009 at 6:17 AM Rating: Good
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And just to add, the only way you will be "gimped" is that you won't have Fenrir for the first 65 or so levels of your SMN career which isn't a big deal anyways.

When you're around 65 you can do the prime battles without being a complete wasted slot and get Fenrir with a group of people.

He has some great BP's but nothing you really need for soloing and nothing you really need for groups before that time.

Edited, Jul 30th 2009 1:17pm by DrObvious
#8 Jul 30 2009 at 8:16 AM Rating: Good
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Also remember, BSTs steal exp! Even if they are just in the zone!
#9 Jul 30 2009 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Mellowy wrote:
Also remember, BSTs steal exp! Even if they are just in the zone!

Yes, but only on Thursdays. And....oh crap, it's Thursday...
#10 Aug 01 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
And just to add, the only way you will be "gimped" is that you won't have Fenrir for the first 65 or so levels of your SMN career which isn't a big deal anyways.


Well not really a big deal, but it helps, having fenrir at level 1 means the difference between level 10 in an hour, and level 10 in 5 hours. He has the same perp as carby until 20, when you get carby mitts, and he hits for much harder. My roommate wanted me to level summoner to 37 for him way back in the day, before WOTG, and he had everything back then. I got him to 13-14 in about 2-3 hours. This was back when easy preys were giving 30 exp MAX per kill. With a little over double exp per kill on an EP, you can reach level 10 in about an hour. Not only that but with fenrir, soloing Ts is very easy.

But other than that, its not that big of a deal. He isn't really useful until he gets both ecliptic howl and growl. Eclipse bite isnt bad on Imps either. I myself got all the avatars through the mini fights, and I generally score higher BPs than other summoners.
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#12 Aug 03 2009 at 6:58 AM Rating: Default
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Why do people come on forums and just lie and spread misinformation? That's one of those things I can never really understand.

Unless you're downing expensive drink after expensive drink (and even then I still doubt it) I doubt you get level 10 in an hour. Fenrir is a lot of things but he isn't something that gets you 13+k EXP/hour at level 1.

And as long as you're smart, you can get level 10 in a few hours on any job without a lot of effort (I leveled SCH last weekend and getting level 10 was simple and I rarely cast spells until I got closer to 10). So I suppose you may have beaten me by a few hours in getting to level 10, but I also saved myself a crapload of money since the only spells I used at those levels were random WHM spells.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 10:10am by DrObvious
#13 Aug 03 2009 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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lightningcount wrote:
But other than that, its not that big of a deal. He isn't really useful until he gets both ecliptic howl and growl. Eclipse bite isnt bad on Imps either.

Fenrir remains the best avatar to use in the early levels, or even up to 50 or so. Moonlit Charge, Crescent Fang, and Lunar Cry are all potent for that level range. The earliest BP even worth using to tie up Rage timers is Double Punch at 30 or Megalith Throw at 35. Even then, I'd rather use Crescent Fang up until Double Slap at 50 for the rather powerful paralyze effect. It's less risky than Ramuh too, since it's single target.

Fenrir is already one of the avatars we cycle buffs in for in the higher levels, so there's no reason you should be able to cycle in Lunar Cry, which is just a different way of boosting the entire party's accuracy, an early version of Ecliptic Howl essentially. Coupled with his lower MP cost and higher than average melee potential, he's THE party avatar.

The only bad thing about Fenrir is his bullshit dependency on the moon.
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#14 Aug 03 2009 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think anyone is disputing that he's good or useful because Fenrir is in fact good and useful, what he's asking is if you're gimped if you don't have Fenrir (or just don't do the mini battles).

Short answer: No.

Yes, he has useful BP's but it's not like you'll be a RDM without Refresh or Haste, you'll just be a SMN without Fenrir. That isn't a big deal because you still have *plenty* to do in parties and soloing before 50 isn't that great and 50-65 Carby is the only way to go.

Now starting around 60-65 range, you need to get the prime battles done and get Fenrir.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 12:56pm by DrObvious
#15 Aug 03 2009 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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DrObvious wrote:
I don't think anyone is disputing that he's good or useful because Fenrir is in fact good and useful, what he's asking is if you're gimped if you don't have Fenrir (or just don't do the mini battles).

I must have misread lightningcount when he said this:
lightningcount wrote:
He isn't really useful until he gets both ecliptic howl and growl.

To which I countered that he is in fact useful before Ecliptic Growl and Howl.

However, in accord with the unsolicited and ancillary argument (no one actually asked) that you may or may not be gimp, it's not a "gimp" or "not gimp" deal. Not having Fenrir leaves a SMN with a painfully obvious lack of tools at those early levels. It's an impediment by a physical limitation, ironically one of the definitions of gimp.

Of course it's possible to level SMN without him, given the number of testimonies. But you are unarguably limited if you choose to do so.
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#16 Aug 03 2009 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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jlejeune wrote:
Not having Fenrir leaves a SMN with a painfully obvious lack of tools at those early levels.


Painfully obvious? Hardly. I was asked in perhaps 2 parties in all of my Summoning career if I had Fenrir, and those parties were fine with the fact that I did not. Fenrir is by no means necessary to be a good summoner. I actually just acquired Fenrir recently at level 70 - and so far, I am not all that impressed. Like all other avatars, he has his uses - but painfully obvious? I think not.
#17 Aug 03 2009 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Whoops, missed his comment somehow (actually thought you were quoting me >_>).

Anyways, like I said, he's without a doubt good but I don't think it leaves you with a painfully obvious lack of tools by not having him.

I leveled SMN 1-65 (actually 62 I think) just fine without him and there were of course situations he helps in but that doesn't mean I just sat there twiddling my thumbs. I was still plenty useful to the party and fit my role exactly as needed. By some strange miracle my parties survived because I healed just fine, I had plenty of buffs to choose from, and I even did damage when needed (I did most of my level well before Ward/Rage).

I've even had people tell me I was one of the best summoners they have ever played with and that was well before I got Fenrir. If I was painfully lacking in tools, I doubt I could get that kind of compliment. And before you say it, no, these were not newbs who had never seen a summoner, these were actually really good players who knew what they were doing.

The *only* people I've ever actually met in the game that look down on you if you don't have Fenrir are the level 40+ warriors with level 10 equipment if you're lucky who just don't know any better or the uppity people that think if you don't have the best possible equipment at all possible times it's painfully obvious you're not good enough and don't deserve them.

I've played my early SMN career without Fenrir, I know others that waited as well, and I know people that have had him their whole career and all the ones who do not fit into one of the two above categories pretty unanimously agree that you don't need him. He's a perk.

So again, no, in no way are you gimped at all for a lack of Fenrir in those early levels. Gimped would be a SMN wearing the absolute wrong gear, wrong sub, being 20+ with only Carbuncle, and so on.

Fenrir is a high level reward and should be treated as such. You get access to Summoner when you're level 30 and not level 60, that is the reason they added the trial size trials in the first place. They wanted to let people be actual useful summoners when they get access to the job while still leaving a reward for them when they get higher levels. If they can get Fenrir earlier, awesome, if not, it's not a big deal and gives you something you can work towards.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 3:32pm by DrObvious
#18 Aug 03 2009 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Squintik wrote:
jlejeune wrote:
Not having Fenrir leaves a SMN with a painfully obvious lack of tools at those early levels.


Painfully obvious? Hardly. I was asked in perhaps 2 parties in all of my Summoning career if I had Fenrir, and those parties were fine with the fact that I did not. Fenrir is by no means necessary to be a good summoner. I actually just acquired Fenrir recently at level 70 - and so far, I am not all that impressed. Like all other avatars, he has his uses - but painfully obvious? I think not.


Yeah, I think a lot Crawler's Nest parties I had asked if I had Fenrir and I had to say no. Some of them were upset about it but by the time the party was over I had them all wowed by the fact you didn't need Fenrir in Crawler's Nest to be useful.

-edit-
And sorry for the above mini-rant, but "No Fenrir = gimped SMN" is one of my mini-buttons and then the whole painfully obvious just annoyoed me.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 3:54pm by DrObvious
#19 Aug 03 2009 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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You seem to have mistaken this as an attempt at derision.

Most people recognize that the avatar system was poorly thought-out and designed. That's why most will accept a SMN not having Fenrir or Diabolos. This is far from a crusade to oust players lacking.

That doesn't mean the inarguable fact remains that you're missing functions without him. This is different from being able to perform them to a lesser degree, but a complete lack. Label it gimp or don't, that doesn't change.

The period when his early abilities truly shine is those early levels everyone talks about. A good third of your leveling career, his BPs are the best. His paralyze is potent, more damage and safer than Ramuh's. His Lunar Cry is the single best debuff for low parties. He's one out of three jobs that can dispel.

If you do get him after that period is done, of course you'll never see just how beneficial they are.

A great axe user can WS Sturmwind and be called a great player, but that doesn't mean Shield Break isn't better. Likewise, a gaxe user that only tries Shield Break at 65-75 will never see just how useful it is 1-37+.

These are things that you should recognize. Not some party leader. You shouldn't be told this after the party invites you.

It's a steaming pile of crap that SE forces you to fight the uncapped battles, and then give Fenrir some of the best low level BPs a SMN can get, we all understand that. This has given rise to veterans recommending that you level SMN as a second job, but we know that you can't force people as to what they level.

It still can't change that he has some of the best low level BPs and that without him you're not just performing those functions to a lesser degree, you're outright lacking them. These should be obvious things.
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#20 Aug 04 2009 at 4:41 AM Rating: Decent
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jlejeune wrote:
the inarguable fact remains that you're missing functions without him.


Perhaps, but Fenrir should be considered a luxury, not a necessity - and it should not be assumed that all summoners should have him at an early level to be effective. The only reason I waited until level 70 to get him was because I had to. I had tried several times with different groups who each claimed to be experts at running Fenrir, but all ended in absolute failure. In the end, I had to get my SMN to a competitive level and assemble my own group. It would have been nice to have him sooner, but as I said before, he was by no means necessary.

jlejeune wrote:
It still can't change that he has some of the best low level BPs and that without him you're not just performing those functions to a lesser degree, you're outright lacking them. These should be obvious things.


You're probably right, but the irony in that, is that only someone who has Fenrir at a low level would see the obvious benefit you speak of. Someone without Fenrir at those levels will never notice. Ultimately, I don't think having Fenrir makes someone a better SMN; it just makes things easier if you do have him. It's like someone using a nailgun as opposed to using a hammer - you can still get the job done just as well with a hammer, but a nailgun just makes it easier.

#21 Aug 04 2009 at 6:37 AM Rating: Good
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Squintik wrote:
It would have been nice to have him sooner, but as I said before, he was by no means necessary.
That may be true.

Squintik wrote:
Ultimately, I don't think having Fenrir makes someone a better SMN;

That, however, is not.

Back in the heyday of rampant RMTing, all but the richest of WHMs leveled without Erase. But just like that WHM that did learn Erase at 32, that SMN with Fenrir, all other things equal, is better because he could do things SMN's without could not.

The abilities he could do also happen to be the most useful abilities for the first half of leveling.

The schism created where Fenrir is a luxury is not because of his abilities, but because of the system he was put in. That nail analogy is a bad analogy because it assumes you can do those things in the first place, which isn't true. Although nowadays a skilled group of 5 players can be geared to the hilt and reasonably expect to win, that you have to be of significant level to fight him is the only reason people don't expect a SMN to have Fenrir at level 20.

No one is forcing a player to get Fenrir for those reasons, but claiming that a SMN without Fenrir is the equal of a SMN with, all other things considered, is simply not the case.
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#22 Aug 24 2009 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
I think the biggest issue not mentioned is that mini-forks can be used to teleport you to battle zone and then you can do prime fights. BUT is you used mini-forks for avatars >> can't get another set for teleport purposes/

So, I have been told.

Hope this helps.

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#23 Aug 30 2009 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with most of the people here who say isn't not a big deal. But I agree..you are gimp without fenrir.

Even if a party DOESN'T ask if I have fenrir..I found Lunar Cry to be a big help on Mandy's when in Yhoat/Yutung. When it was Enemy -ACC down, that helped conserve MP and give me bigger windows for Ifrit Rage BPS (since mandies double hit)..and when it was Enemy -EVA...it helped a ton in parties that had no bards..cause you know no pug in the 20s/30s has peeps downing ACC food.

So will groups care? likely not..they normally want a healer and anything else is icing. But any tool you are lacking is one..you..well...lack. Period. and when you have those 1 tank and 5 melee groups that cant hit the broad side of a barn...fenrir is the next best things to a BRD or COR in those painful low level parties to help maintain a solid exp rate.

Granted, I had fenrir at level 1..but I stopped leveling at 20 to get Diablos..cause I don't want to be in a situation where I said "if I only had Diabolos"....

Fenrir can be dou'd/trio'd by summoners... beg your linkshell and I'm sure you can get it done. ****, a talented RDM can solo fenrir.

Edited, Aug 30th 2009 9:32pm by Alvehyanna
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#24 Sep 07 2009 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Hahaha this made me laugh so hard :) Thanks for the post.
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