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COMBAT SMN!Follow

#1 Jul 11 2009 at 4:06 AM Rating: Decent
While mindlessly grinding away experience points, I was thinking of ways to make the summoner and avatar work a little more as a team...
I think that would be cool; I just haven't been able to come up with many examples.

I mean, I'm not suggesting that Carbuncle should be used as as projectile, etc.

I heard a couple times on here that Fenrir could be rideable.
That's an outstanding idea, he looks made for it.
It's one example of how the summoner and avatar could work in sync.

But what I'm thinking of is a little different. Basically, I've decided that in one more level and I'm SMN75, I'm going to focus on skilling up and learning to use a staff properly... I want to be right there, alongside my buddies as we fight bad guys.

I'm going to do anyway, for the 'fun' factor, but the problem with this is that it probably won't end up doing much damage or being all that useful.

This lack of uselessness translates to any melee-based summoner tactics being restricted to solo play.

So, what if... (most used set of words on this board?) Square Enix implemented ways for the summoner and avatar to work together side-by-side, right on the battlefield? My ideas are all a little silly compared to the highly mathematical ones that you've all come up with, but I'll continue anyway.

The idea is that you and your avatar are to both fight a monster together; use your avatars' Blood Pacts as usual.
What would be different is a set of various triggers and bonuses between the meleeing summoner and his avatar.

Here's an EXAMPLE. (Please note that I'm not familiar at all with Staff Weapon Skills yet)

  • A summoner engages an enemy wielding a Staff, accompanied by Ifrit.


  • While both the summoner and avatar are using their basic attacks, the summoner uses his Staff to perform Spirit Taker on the enemy.


  • This action by the summoner triggers the avatar, Ifrit, to automatically perform a Fire-based magic blast on the enemy.


  • So, basically, just a fun little combo system between the summoners and their avatar for boosted damage. Unlike the Blood Pacts, these combos wouldn't have an MP cost. You're using your MP by keeping your avatar summoned and continuing to use occasional Blood Pacts, as well. (depending on your MP)

    I know that my idea would probably not work, I'm just sleepy and having fun on my summoner; thinking of ways that I could have even more fun, and be strong, too.

    Maybe the combo/team system could just offer less subtle benefits... like, the summoner's abilities would just become stronger in battle if an avatar was with them.

    For EXAMPLE!!!

  • A summoner engages an enemy wielding a Staff, accompanied by Carbuncle.


  • While both the summoner and avatar are using their basic attacks, the summoner uses his Staff to perform Retribution on the enemy.


  • Carbuncle augments the summoner's Retribution Weapon Skill, causing major bonus light damage. Rather than the usual skill animation, Carbuncle uses his tail to whip the summoner's Staff forward during Retribution.


  • Anyway, I'm just pouring out my ideas! Sorry, they aren't very good. Smiley: bah

    But a system where our avatars helped us fight so we weren't just standing back so often could be really cool.

    Right now the system is a lot like Pokemon where the summoner does nothing but order commands and heal.

    I think if summoners were given more of a role we might be on the road to usefulness!

    Tell me what you guys think. I don't even know if my idea made sense, it's 8:05 AM in the morning. I'm sure you've heard worse.

    Edit :( sleep deprivation, damn... how do I delete posts

    Edited, Jul 11th 2009 4:21pm by Poubelle
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    #2 Jul 11 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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    Meleeing is actually what a SMN "should" be doing. The problem is that it doesn't fall under the most efficient thing.

    It is like how NIN "should" be stealthy killers, but ended up as tanks. Funny enough there is an update coming to fix that, but I could easily bet my whole country on that SMN will never get some kind of melee update.
    #3 Jul 11 2009 at 1:50 PM Rating: Default
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    Mellowy wrote:
    Meleeing is actually what a SMN "should" be doing.

    There's nothing that ever indicated that SMN should melee. Every job was given a decent or better stat in some weapon so that it was an OPTION, just like in every other game.

    In fact, every indication is that SMN is doing exactly what it should with SMN/WHM|SCH, based on the FFXI-specific tools we're given and past series history.

    What Poubelle is proposing is a tweaked DRG+Wyvern system applied to SMN, which is a novel idea. It wouldn't see much use outside of solo, I'd say. A melee SMN is already highly situational, and takes a good deal of effort a lot of SMN's aren't used to.

    It's not something I care about personally, I leveled SMN for the by-proxy system, I would have leveled any of the other pet jobs if I was truly interested in a team-based system.

    Edited, Jul 11th 2009 3:51pm by jlejeune
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    #4 Jul 11 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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    Quote:
    It is like how NIN "should" be stealthy killers, but ended up as tanks.

    Actually, NIN "should" be debuffers and pullers, which is clearly how the design team originally envisioned them.
    #5 Jul 11 2009 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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    I viewed NIN as the adaptable damage dealer. They could start nuking with the elemental wheel and /RDM or /BLM, or they could go /WAR and melee with their katana, or they could go /RNG and throw shuriken. Sadly, SE dropped the ball on making ninjutsu do viable enough damage post-60 and the immense lack of shuriken.
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    #6 Jul 11 2009 at 4:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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    I solo my SMN a lot doing FoV to get exp and keep my skills out of the crapper from level sync partys and when I solo I always melee. Eat a sushi sub /DNC and find mobs that have an MP pool. Aspir Samba is a great way to keep MP up w/o resting and the damage I do though weak adds up. I'am thinking of building an equip set for SMN/DNC with more focus on DD. I would never do this in a party but It's fun in solo play.
    #7 Jul 12 2009 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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    Quote:
    I viewed NIN as the adaptable damage dealer. They could start nuking with the elemental wheel and /RDM or /BLM, or they could go /WAR and melee with their katana, or they could go /RNG and throw shuriken. Sadly, SE dropped the ball on making ninjutsu do viable enough damage post-60 and the immense lack of shuriken.

    Heh, that's how the players started to see NIN... eventually. It took ages for us to figure out how to get proper DD from NIN -- when I first started playing, /THF was still perfectly acceptable because it helped pulling and offered a DD boost once a minute. It took players a while to notice the effectiveness of shuriken spamming, and even longer to discover "the wheel" and the value of /RDM for making it faster and more effective.

    Those DD options, and the effectiveness of shadows as more than a tool to get back to camp alive while pulling a mob, seemed to be completely lost on the game's design team. NIN was a lot like SMN for awhile -- neat toys but not much of a role to fill with them. NIN got lucky that players eventually found a great way to use the job. One could argue that SMN is still waiting for that.

    And, come on SE... still no throwing WS's? It would take an unpaid intern two hours to write the code for them. They don't even need new animations...
    #8 Jul 12 2009 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
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    Quote:
    There's nothing that ever indicated that SMN should melee. Every job was given a decent or better stat in some weapon so that it was an OPTION, just like in every other game.


    Nothing except the complete lack of anything else to do.

    The game has 19 subs. 5 of them could make you cure, 14 of them would force you into melee due to nothing else you can do.

    Look at WHM. Is there any subjob that leaves them no other option than melee? No, they can always cure.

    Look at BLM. Is there any subjob that leaves them unable to nuke? No, they can always nuke.

    You can keep going on a lot of jobs and every single job can do "their thing" independent of subjob.

    SMN quite logically is meant to do what most subs allow it to do, which is melee.

    The thing is that you CAN play alternative styles. You CAN heal on SMN. You CAN tank on NIN. You CAN tank on WAR. You CAN heal on PLD. These alternative styles are usually more strict on subs. You can't go PLD/WAR and expect to drop -na spells on your party while healing. You can't go NIN/THF and expect good tanking. And of course you can't go SMN/WAR and expect to heal well.

    Melee is what SMN is designed for. Craptastic melee.

    Healing is what SMN is good at. But confusing what a job does well with what it is meant to do is easily done if you do not think it through.

    You can take the hint from past FFs like FF4. Rosa, the main healer, is meant to be shooting arrows when nobody needs a cure, or whack mobs with elemental staffs. Is she good at it? No, she does crap damage, but crap damage is better than curing full HP people.

    If you can't accept that someone out there actually believes there is a place for crap damage dealers, then you should go replay some FFs and see for yourselves.
    #9 Jul 12 2009 at 10:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Mellowy wrote:
    Nothing except the complete lack of anything else to do.

    That, in the history of any education at any college or university for any profession of any trained or educated man for any society, is the worst reason to assume anything. Lack of extraneous options does not imply intent.

    You assume a SMN will be twiddling their thumbs, incapable of doing anything. That is simply not the case. Our avatars are an ever present function of the job, and when deprived of all other tools, they will still be there. Quite simply, that is the only intent given. Or to rephrase that, "what we should do." That is what should be compared to a WHM's cure, a BLM's nuke, or any other job's primary function.

    Nevermind that there is nothing to promote us above other mages with melee as a primary function.

    Quote:
    If you can't accept that someone out there actually believes there is a place for crap damage dealers, then you should go replay some FFs and see for yourselves.
    Questioning someone's Final Fantasy "resume" is not a good idea. For every character that doesn't follow current player-base convention you pull up, I can list another that does.

    Consider this as some food for thought, the biggest pattern you can see across the entire series is that melee is an option for every single character. Yet in every single instance, there are characters where it is more beneficial to ignore that option and use them for their intended purpose.

    Just because Rosa can shoot an arrow, doesn't mean Rosa should shoot an arrow.
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    #10 Jul 13 2009 at 2:55 AM Rating: Default
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    Quote:
    Nevermind that there is nothing to promote us above other mages with melee as a primary function.


    There are, and there aren't. SMN has no spell interrupting melee swings, putting SMN first out of all mage jobs for melee. But that only counts if you are using spirits or restrict yourself to fenrir or garuda for wards. If you actually try to cover more wards you do get more spells interrupting melee swings.

    Quote:
    You assume a SMN will be twiddling their thumbs, incapable of doing anything. That is simply not the case.


    But you just said they'll use their avatars and that is it. If that isn't twiddling your master thumbs while the pet works, I don't know what is. Instead of twiddling you could engage and melee.

    Quote:
    Just because Rosa can shoot an arrow, doesn't mean Rosa should shoot an arrow.


    It does mean the game developers intended her to shoot. Else they would not have given her a bow. (She could have gotten a staff if the only reason to have a weapon was for looks)

    In FFXI's case the intended SMN melee is obvious if you look at the complete lack of cure spells on the main job. If SMN was meant to cure in every single situation, I suspect they would be having natural cure spells. You know, like Rydia, Garnet, Yuna, etc.

    Saying SMN is meant to heal in FFXI is like saying MNK is meant to heal in FF5, just because you can be MNK with WHM spells tacked on.

    Saying SMN is meant to only send pets in, is like saying Yuna is meant to only summon avatars. Some jobs are fit to do more. SMN is fit to melee along avatars.

    It still isn't optimal way of playing, but it is the intended way.

    Quote:
    That, in the history of any education at any college or university for any profession of any trained or educated man for any society, is the worst reason to assume anything. Lack of extraneous options does not imply intent.


    At the same time BST and SMN is in the same boat. They have a pet they can idle while it fights, or they can walk up and melee. Neither have natural cures or any JA's to enhance themselves with. Just a weapon and a rating.

    BST is just as intended to melee as SMN, and I take the freedom of assuming it is intended to melee. Even though it may just have the axe for looks and should be in the back lines.
    #11 Jul 13 2009 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
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    Mellowy wrote:
    Saying SMN is meant to heal in FFXI is like saying MNK is meant to heal in FF5, just because you can be MNK with WHM spells tacked on.

    Except I never said SMN's were supposed to always main heal, either. Don't put words in my mouth.

    Mellowy wrote:
    BST is just as intended to melee as SMN, and I take the freedom of assuming it is intended to melee. Even though it may just have the axe for looks and should be in the back lines.

    Did you seriously just compare a BST with access to Huaberk, Byakko's Haidates, Dusk gear, the top DD axes, Rampage, and free pets, to a SMN with a hefty MP price tag and Tabin?

    Edited, Jul 13th 2009 7:14am by jlejeune
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    #12 Jul 13 2009 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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    Monsieur Poubelle wrote:
    I mean, I'm not suggesting that Carbuncle should be used as as projectile, etc.

    I think this is the best idea to come out of this thread. I want a Carbuncle Cannon!
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    #13 Jul 14 2009 at 5:28 AM Rating: Good
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    Monsieur Poubelle wrote:

    I heard a couple times on here that Fenrir could be rideable.
    That's an outstanding idea, he looks made for it.


    Galkas would disagree. It's bad enough they don't get mongoloid chocobos to ride so it looks proportioned.

    Mellowy wrote:
    Meleeing is actually what a SMN "should" be doing. The problem is that it doesn't fall under the most efficient thing.


    /eyetwitch
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