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#1 Jun 18 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok I have to know can anyone fully explain whether Avatar: Enmity - or + affects the avatar holding hate or losing hate? I keep seeing different arguments supporting several theories. Im big on trying to solo things and if i could get this enmity issue covered i might be able to pull off kills like avesta's rdm did with a good kite path. Thanks in advance for any help
#2 Jun 18 2009 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Enmity on the Avatar works like Enmity on the player, and there's no supporting documentation to suggest anything otherwise.

Assuming you understand the basics of Hate-generating actions, distance-based enmity rules, and the value of adding +Enmity to the Avatar and -Enmity to the player, then you should be able to apply what you know without issue.

What exactly are you looking for?
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#3 Jun 18 2009 at 12:16 PM Rating: Default
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For soloing purposes I want to best equip myself to be able to sustain avatar hate especially right after a recast when the mob is in-route to me while kiting. If i could beef up avatar defense and hate holding capabilities soloing NM's and tougher mobs would be easier especially with a good kiting path. Also, are you saying the avatar:enmity - is for the player and not the summoner?
#4 Jun 18 2009 at 12:42 PM Rating: Default
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Confirmed in a recent SE interview: na.square-enix.com/events/ffxi/tour2005/tx/transcript.html

FFXI Stratics: One of the biggest debates in the summoner community deals with the stat found on the artifact armor "avatar: enmity: -". Who receives this effect?

Sage Sundi: The enmity status is related to the avatar, not to the summoner. It's useful to use "avatar: enmity+" when you want your avatar to keep the hate.


This answered my question thanks all
#5 Jun 18 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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"Also, are you saying the avatar:enmity - is for the player and not the summoner?"

What is the difference between the player and the summoner ?

Avatar:enmity - and avatar:emnity+ is for the avatar and no one else.

While it is a good idea to build an avatar:emnity+ set, there is the problem that it can take quite a while and some effort to actually get the desired armour pieces.

For instance, it took me several years to get relic legs -1. Not every dynamis shell does Tavnazia regularly, and the drop rate is unpredictable, to put it mildly.

With YingYang robe, relic legs + feet and the Diverter´s ring from the Castle Oztroja (S) SCNM you would get avatar:emnity +11, which would certainly be welcome for any solo activites.

I don´t know which of avesta´s achievements you are referring to. But don´t forget that soloing some of the harder stuff is a lot easier for a RDM than a SMN. And emnity issues on the SMN/Avatar side is only a small fragment of the reasons for that.
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#6 Jun 18 2009 at 2:42 PM Rating: Default
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how hard was that SCNM and do you know anyone that has tested the koschei piece or even has it?
#7 Jun 18 2009 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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There's actually a pretty sizable amount of avatar enmity gear in the game now. Wearing relic+1 legs and feet, diverter ring, yy robe, breeder's set, and ACP pet enmity+2 earring if you can get it... that's a total of 15-20 (estimated because of unknown breeder's set bonus info) avatar enmity. That's pretty major.


I have breeder's mufflers and i'm currently working on the mask. If I get breeder's mask i will try to test how much enmity that gives. Its supposedly a lot of enmity added for having both pieces. My guess would be that they give +5 enmity like the YYR.

Edited, Jun 18th 2009 10:44pm by shadowkind
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#8 Jun 18 2009 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Correct, the bonus gives Pet: Enmity +5 judged by my personal results.

So, the max is 18. Personally I can have Avatar Enmity +16 :
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q52/papesse/pol2009-06-1905-25-19-26.jpg

Still need the Ear from ACP.


I have the Koschei Crackows also. In my opinion they have a Atk bonus better than our AF2 but wihtout the BP delay-2...

The SCNM is "hard", here's a video of my first run :
http://www.dailymotion.com/channel/videogames/video/x6x2db_a-malicious-manifest-bcnm_videogames?from=rss
But the second run was pretty easy after, radically different. The best technique is a SMN burn err I mean Astral Flow burn to kill the Eles quickly.

Edited, Jun 18th 2009 11:48pm by papesse
#9 Jun 19 2009 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Mackavelipac wrote:
how hard was that SCNM and do you know anyone that has tested the koschei piece or even has it?


Hardest one of the 3, if you ask my LS. We are currently 1/2 on beating it, but it isn't like it is high priority since most people want to gear their SAMs or RNGs rather than their SMNs or SCHs.

I'd like to try the shoes though. Feels like double defense bonus on garuda could be nice.
#10 Jun 19 2009 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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i'd love the shoes and the ring from that fight, but my LS has only done it once when i wasn't there since they were released. And as mellowy said the priority for most shells is on spamming the other 2 since it drops melee gear.
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This resulted in a backlash from the PLD. "He saved u lot from dying by using his 2hour!" *eyeroll* *****, please. I'm a mother-@#%^ing-DRAGOON. -Kellinda (Live Journal)
#11 Jun 22 2009 at 6:00 AM Rating: Good
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Mosel wrote:
"Also, are you saying the avatar:enmity - is for the player and not the summoner?"

What is the difference between the player and the summoner ?

Avatar:enmity - and avatar:emnity+ is for the avatar and no one else.


If the Player can equip -Enmity, and the Avatar can equip +Enmity, then you can gain an enmity differential between the two.

Based on the reply above, -if- the most +Enmity that an Avatar can wear is +18, and the most -Enmity that a player can wear is -50, then the differential between the two is 68. Obviously this isn't possible, given the fact that the Avatar +Enmity takes up the same slots that some Player -Enmity would take, but the principle is there.

And that's what I mean. If a Summoner is building an Enmity system and only focuses on the Avatar, that Summoner is missing the larger of the two halves of the build. There is significantly more -Enmity that the player can wear than +Enmity that the Avatar can wear.

*edit* although, it does get sticky given the amount of Enmity that the player's actions generate versus the Avatar's isn't as well documented.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2009 10:10am by Acturus
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milich wrote:
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Everytime Arcturus sees this, he starts to die inside.......I know it D:
actually, i think every time Acturus is called Arcturus he dies inside.


Now THIS is PvP!

MNK ~ SMN ~ SCH
#12 Jun 22 2009 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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Acturus wrote:
And that's what I mean. If a Summoner is building an Enmity system and only focuses on the Avatar, that Summoner is missing the larger of the two halves of the build. There is significantly more -Enmity that the player can wear than +Enmity that the Avatar can wear.

While I'm not necessarily disagreeing, there's another faucet to player enmity and avatar enmity.

It depends on what you're trying to do. Enmity increases/decreases only occur when that particular character is doing something. So how much of a net difference there is depends on how much you do as a SMN compared to your avatar.

If your avatar is generating significantly more actions than you, typically in an auto-attack scenario, or Summon-BP-Release role, basically anything where you're not primarily support and doing more than BPs/Pet Commands, then you're better off looking at primarly Avatar Enmity+. If you're not doing more than commands, but your avatar is doing multiple melee swings, high damage, or high cures, then your enmity is minimal as it is and your rate of increase is insignificant compared to the Avatars. There, you don't need player enmity-. There, the net difference is only seen a handful of times. You should try to get the highest Avatar Enmity+ you can.

However, if you're in a full support role, and you as a SMN are doing a lot of actions (Cures mostly, but multiple buffs and status cures affect it too), then you'll see the net difference most of the time. As a SMN, you're matching your avatars number of actions, so you should try to get the highest net difference in player and avatar emnity.

So, what is the main point of this PowerPoint presentation, SMNs need multiple emnity sets! Huzzah for more gear sets in the name of optimization.
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#13 Jun 22 2009 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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I was posting from the point of view that the OP wants to use Enmity to his advantage during kited fights, which would place a significant burden on the Avatar's melee attacks to maintain a good amount of Enmity.

The trouble, of course, is that the Avatar loses ALL enmity when it dies or is dismissed. The player doesn't get that same luxury. Over time, the player will amass enough Enmity by performing actions within range that no amount of Avatar Enmity will pull the mob off before the SMN dies.
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Before you ask a stupid crafting question, read this.
milich wrote:
Quote:
Everytime Arcturus sees this, he starts to die inside.......I know it D:
actually, i think every time Acturus is called Arcturus he dies inside.


Now THIS is PvP!

MNK ~ SMN ~ SCH
#14 Jun 22 2009 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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Acturus wrote:
The trouble, of course, is that the Avatar loses ALL enmity when it dies or is dismissed. The player doesn't get that same luxury. Over time, the player will amass enough Enmity by performing actions within range that no amount of Avatar Enmity will pull the mob off before the SMN dies.
That point in time is indeterminable. You should be avoiding putting yourself in a position where you're spamming -nas and Cures in hate generation range. If you are in that position, there are already other things to worry about.

Of course, if you're kiting in a room that's 20' by 20' and you can't escape hate generation, you'll want to rethink your gear. But a majority of kites use standing outside the 25'-30' range to minimize our hate which means enmity+ on the avatar will push it's hate higher than your hate quicker, consistently. The player enmity- would see use on occasional BP activations and your emergencing curing here and there.
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#15 Jun 22 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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Another factor not being considered is that avatar enmity up affects your entire alliance, whereas Summoner enmity down affects just yourself. If you have tons of enmity down, it's not going to help your avatar pull hate over someone else in the party.

Now, whether you want your avatar to pull hate over other people in the party is another question entirely... but I find that quite often the answer is "YES!" Any time an avatar can pull hate without causing a spike flail or similar move, it's generally a good thing. I love pulling hate away from the DDs or tanks with an avatar. When it happens, I'll leave the avatar out until it dies or loses hate, because my perpetuation cost is paltry compared to the benefit of preventing a few attack rounds from hitting players. On the other hand, that's usually accomplished by a BP:Rage, in which case we're probably better off ensuring the BP does good damage than trying to boost avatar enmity, since more damage means more enmity. For example I swap out my Smn Spats +1 for Marduk's Shalwar while doing BP's. This costs me 2 avatar enmity but I gain 5 smn skill. Ultimately I believe this to be more valuable.

Really what it comes down to is that if the Summoner doesn't make any mistakes, their own enmity should not be an issue at all. We do very little that actually generates enmity, and those things which do should pale in comparison to the enmity being generated by other players and/or our avatars. The greater the net enmity difference between you and your avatar, the more room you have for making mistakes and recovering, but it should never be "required."
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#16 Jun 23 2009 at 5:01 AM Rating: Good
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Mackavelipac wrote:
big on trying to solo things and if i could get this enmity issue covered i might be able to pull off kills like avesta's rdm did with a good kite path. Thanks in advance for any help


We're leaving the OP's scope of questioning. Alliance hate isn't important when there is no alliance, Perg. (^.^)

It sounds like the OP wants to try to solo sky gods and such.
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Before you ask a stupid crafting question, read this.
milich wrote:
Quote:
Everytime Arcturus sees this, he starts to die inside.......I know it D:
actually, i think every time Acturus is called Arcturus he dies inside.


Now THIS is PvP!

MNK ~ SMN ~ SCH
#17 Jun 23 2009 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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Hmm, in that case ignore about the first half of my post. The point about increasing avatar's damage rather than enmity, and the last paragraph still apply in solo situation.
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#18 Jun 23 2009 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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Acturus wrote:
We're leaving the OP's scope of questioning. Alliance hate isn't important when there is no alliance, Perg. (^.^)

It sounds like the OP wants to try to solo sky gods and such.

It's better to have your avatar able to consistently build hate quicker than you (focus on Avatar Enmity+) rather than shoot for an indeterminable grace period between when you will cap hate and when you would likely cap hate (focus on Player Enmity-).
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#19 Jun 23 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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Still, it would help for the OP to equip -Enmity on himself in slots where more important gear (like -Perp or +Enm for the Avatar) wasn't utilized.

The Errant Cape springs to mind in one such slot.
____________________________
Before you ask a stupid crafting question, read this.
milich wrote:
Quote:
Everytime Arcturus sees this, he starts to die inside.......I know it D:
actually, i think every time Acturus is called Arcturus he dies inside.


Now THIS is PvP!

MNK ~ SMN ~ SCH
#20 Jun 24 2009 at 8:23 AM Rating: Default
21 posts
To the poster that has the koschei, what kind of increase in dmg/def were you noticing? Just curious because they feet really interest me if they are decent and/or than af2
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