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Dragoon Versus SummonerFollow

#1 Apr 23 2009 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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So, the title basically states my intent. I am just starting the game, but I want to get to know the classes and such first, before I actually start. Thus I have boiled down my main two choices of classes to either Dragoon or Summoner. So I wanted the boards opinions on which ones are better.

Some of these things interest me:
End Game Content
Soloing
Being able to get a group easily

But if you want to bring up points about either one then anything you can do to help is appreciate.

Thank you

(Note: Post was put onto both boards, Summoner and Dragoon in order to get the best results.)
#2 Apr 23 2009 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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In all honesty... the only 3 things that the 2 jobs share in common are:

1: both are technically pet jobs.
2: both can solo quite well
3: both have difficulty getting a PT. SMN because for what most people are looking for, SMN is a little sub-par. DRG because of a stigma that was placed on it froma nerf 6 years ago.

Both jobs are fun and generally require a love of the job to play it to end-game. They, however, are nothing alike. Comparing them is like comparing apples to pigs.
#3 Apr 23 2009 at 9:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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So. Dragoons are gimped because of a nerf that was corrected that happened 6 years ago?
#4 Apr 23 2009 at 11:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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no drg isn't gimp and the majority accepts it to be one of the greatest dds in the game i guess. but there are always some people that are unable, unwilling or just too jealous to correct their point of view.

if you just startet the game i would suggest to choose drg. you'll have to invest much time and some gil if you want all the avatars for your smn as early as possible. for new players that haven't made much friends and gil yet collecting the avatars (especially fenrir and diabolos) can be a real pain. so if you like both i'd suggest to save yourself a bit of frustration and level drg first. both jobs are great anyway.
#5 Apr 24 2009 at 3:48 AM Rating: Decent
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DRGs just tend to get picked for a DD spot fairly low until you reach bird camps, when their piercing bonus really takes over.

Neither job will find it easy to get invites, but at least DRG does get easier to find parties starting around level 55.

End game....you will find a lot more chances on SMN than DRG, which has virtually no end game use. Although even SMNs end game popularity has reduced over the years as stuff like zerging has becoming more popular.

Soloing....both are actually good solo jobs, but they solo completely different things normally.
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#6 Apr 24 2009 at 5:57 AM Rating: Decent
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I never said DRG was gimp. I simply said it has a stigma. Even today, if you poll a large sample of players, I'd say roughly 35% of them still believe in the stigma that DRG has suffered from for 6 years. That does, in turn, hurt PT invites. Another thing to note is that DRG is a melee. There are like 400 melee jobs available. That hurts DRGs invites as well.
#7 Apr 24 2009 at 6:15 AM Rating: Good
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A DRG so may be unfair to answer this, but on the other hand I have the invite experience to answer it. The stigma is pretty much dead. DRG, of all my classes except for BRD gets the most invites. Further more, since the introduction of both level sync and Colibri in East Ronfaure [S], the level at which DRGs(and polearm wielding SAMs) start getting easy invites is actually 35. I still, at 75, get really quick invites to East Ron unless I put {Level Sync} {No thanks.}, and even then I still get a random one here and there.

Problem there is you may find yourself in 35-38 level parties from 35-55, then it will be a toss up between 35-38 and 55-58 until middle 60s, then it adds 63-66 to that list until 75. You'll find occasional parties that level at different ranges(Mire @68+ etc) but the fast invites will be at those ranges.

This, of course, causes you to have severely underleveled skills, weapon, evade, etc. You either need to find a skill up party, force yourself to wait for a party that is your level, or solo skill ups(what I do).

Banggugyangu wrote:
Another thing to note is that DRG is a melee. There are like 400 melee jobs available. That hurts DRGs invites as well.

This is the only thing that really hurts our invites nowadays. Alot of people have been leveling SAM and DRG as well, so you'll find competition even among the generally most wanted classes.
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#8 Apr 24 2009 at 6:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Reason I don't like DRG in the lower levels, they really don't have much in the way of damage mitigation lower levels, and easily be one of the worst MP sinks of melee in those low levels. As they start getting high jump, super jump, sam sub, etc it starts improving, but before then, it really kinda sucks unless they sub NIN, but then they are lowering their DD output. Being a C and C- in Parry/Evasion doesn't help much either.

If they want to help DRG get over this last roadblock of being a viable DD in all levels, they need some sort of damage mitigation that works well in those low levels.


In the low levels I'll take a DD that can help eliminate downtime before I take a DRG. Now, if you have a PL....DRGs are great.


Edited, Apr 24th 2009 10:44am by dakpluto
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#9 Apr 24 2009 at 6:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Dragoon is a great DD and my guess is the -60 you will get more invites as a DRG. The other day I had 2 DRG 2 BLU A BLM and a DRK in my pt (With a amazing PL) and the Dragons were dishing out quite a bit of damage at level 17-21. This being said I like SMN more just because it's good at endgame and a fun unique job to play. But despite my love for SMN I'd definetly get DRG to 50 before starting SMN because it will up the game experience that really helps with SMN as well as getting you time to get well connected. It's up to you.
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#10 Apr 24 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Souji wrote:
*A lot of points that are valid*


I'm not saying that DRG can't get invites... I'm saying that there are some people that still believe in the DRG stigma.

These same people are usually the ones that didn't even understand what the nerf originally was back in the day or that it wasn't specifically targeted DRGs. Not many people realize that MNKs were taking relic knuckles, getting 100 TP, then literally spamming the **** outta asuran fists, because using it resulted in having more than 100TP afterwards. Penta Thrust only left DRGs with somewhere around 70ish TP.

It's not as great as it used to be, but it's still there. Saying it's not is just being in denial. There's no cure for stupidity, and FFXI's servers are riddled with it.
#11 Apr 24 2009 at 7:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So, the title basically states my intent. I am just starting the game, but I want to get to know the classes and such first, before I actually start. Thus I have boiled down my main two choices of classes to either Dragoon or Summoner. So I wanted the boards opinions on which ones are better.


If you already decided for these two jobs, I suggest you start by DRG, It's easy to start by, because on Summoner, sooner or later you'll need a level 75 job, if you want to get all the avatars (Fenrir & Diabolos)

Quote:
Some of these things interest me:
End Game Content
Soloing
Being able to get a group easily

But if you want to bring up points about either one then anything you can do to help is appreciate.


Now if you will level X job because of End game...

I suggest you think twice, because you might end up throwing all your effort, just because the job is not suited to your play style.


Edited, Apr 24th 2009 1:56pm by Reaven
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#12 Apr 24 2009 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
End game....you will find a lot more chances on SMN than DRG, which has virtually no end game use. Although even SMNs end game popularity has reduced over the years as stuff like zerging has becoming more popular.


As I see it, it is "SMN for everything where you die 10+ times or DON'T FEED TP!!!!" and "One DRG for ANGON for everything!!!!" Neither amazing.
#13 Apr 24 2009 at 10:16 AM Rating: Default
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Mellowy wrote:
Quote:
End game....you will find a lot more chances on SMN than DRG, which has virtually no end game use. Although even SMNs end game popularity has reduced over the years as stuff like zerging has becoming more popular.


As I see it, it is "SMN for everything where you die 10+ times or DON'T FEED TP!!!!" and "One DRG for ANGON for everything!!!!" Neither amazing.


and of course Tiamat, Cerb, Khimmy, Vrtra, Odin.....

and please tell me you are not dying 10+ times to these and not using melee...
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#14 Apr 24 2009 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
End Game Content
Soloing
Being able to get a group easily


End Game, SMN probably has an edge.
Soloing, DRG is 1000x better.
Group invites, DRG is excellent as far as melee DDs go. SMN has been relegated to 7th resort healer.
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#15 Apr 24 2009 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
End game....you will find a lot more chances on SMN than DRG, which has virtually no end game use. Although even SMNs end game popularity has reduced over the years as stuff like zerging has becoming more popular.


As zerging become more popular you find more and more use for drg. Well not use but need for DRG. Excluding drk zerging, every zerg benefits immensely from angon. And even with drk zerg you will still have other DDs hacking away.
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#16 Apr 25 2009 at 3:35 AM Rating: Default
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dakpluto wrote:
Mellowy wrote:
Quote:
End game....you will find a lot more chances on SMN than DRG, which has virtually no end game use. Although even SMNs end game popularity has reduced over the years as stuff like zerging has becoming more popular.


As I see it, it is "SMN for everything where you die 10+ times or DON'T FEED TP!!!!" and "One DRG for ANGON for everything!!!!" Neither amazing.


and of course Tiamat, Cerb, Khimmy, Vrtra, Odin.....

and please tell me you are not dying 10+ times to these and not using melee...


Tiamat:
1 SMN (me, occasionally someone else comes)
7 BLMs
1 BLU
3 BRDs
2 PLDs
1 RDM
1 WHM
roughly in alliance

Cerb:
1 SMN (me!, occasionally someone more)
2-3 DRKs
2 PLDs
2 BRDs
1 WHM
2-3 RDM/DRK
Occasional BLMs for stuns
X SAMs

Kimmy
1 SMN (me!, occasionally 1 or 2 more)
3-4 RNG
1 BLU
2 DRK
1 THF
2 SAM
2 PLD
2 BRD/BLM
2 WHM
2 RDM/DRKs
some BLMs for stun
roughly something like that

Vrtra
Burn method, though we've only won once for god knows the reason.

Odin
4-5 SMNs!!!!!!!!!
4-5 RNGs
Tank party
Occasional melee people


So yea, SMN is dead in my LS. Nothing except Odin makes people swap to it. Heck our SMN to BLU ratio is usually 1:1 on these things, and both are pretty great at them. (Though it would make more sense with like 4 SMN and 4 BLU to kill things faster)

Btw, planned AV fight for the future also has 10 BLMs and 0 SMNs, not that we use either on JoL... just throwing SAMs on JoL with DRG "hate shedders" and PLD tank.

Did I mention

Dark Ixion
1 SMN (MEEEEEEEEEEEEE)
5 RNG
1 BLU
X SAMs
tank party

Sand Worm
5 BLMs
1 COR
tank party
X SAMs

Fafnir
SAMs
BLMs

Etc.


My LS strategy is "if it works, why change it". (And we actually USED to go 4-5 SMNs on tiamat, but apparently changed it to BLMs because it was better???)
#17 Apr 25 2009 at 6:16 AM Rating: Good
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Well....if your LS is thinking BLMs > SMNs on Tiamat, I think that kinda speaks enough on the strategies and job choices of your linkshell.


I mean obviously a mob with a high magic defense and average physical resist, and horrible AoE TP moves, my job of choice would be the BLMs spamming spells and TP... [/sarcasm]


I believe I posted on here the example before that the only job that could even touch me on a early morning with me as the only SMN was 2 top geared DRKs. http://www.dakpluto.net/tiamat110107.html One was a K.club DRK, other Merc. Kris. I came within 6000 total damage of the Merc. Kris DRK. BLMs did a whopping 3%-5% more than the tanks....

Only reason you should ever use BLMs on Tiamat is if you are doing the sleep on land -> nuke in air method, which you should only do that if really short on people or just really like taking twice as long to do a Tiamat.

Cerb...eh, Melee can do better, but are just stupid to have to heal through it, and TP gain on Cerb can get really bad at times. Still best to have SMNs doing the bulk of the damage and have melee as SAM or /SAM and rotate in for WS damage only.

Khim, see same as above with Cerb. Melee = stupid. They should only be coming in for WS only. Between Dreadstorm, Mist, Thunderstrike, etc you should never be building TP on him. Melee should only come in for WS only. And even then your melee of choice should be BLU. If a moron showed up DRK to our Khim I'd tell him to warp his **** back home and switch to a job that will actually be of use to us. So again, your best DoT....SMN. BLMs are stun only as Khim's magical defense is completely stupid, and even worse if you haven't broken the wings. Fortunally Fulmy isn't as stupid as Gates, so can normally get by with 2 Stunners.

Sandworm: yeah, wouldn't bring a SMN within 100 feet of it. It is a pretty crappy job for it. All the inside mobs are really best done with an old fashioned SC -> Massive MB method. (Well, kinda exception with Lambton, but can still be done if careful.) Obviously with Lamton, a bad timed P.claws can pretty much make you cry as you watch it heal the worm for 10-15%.

Ixion: yeah, plenty of TP mobs, weak in the rear...SMN is "ok" damage, but really best replaced with /THF DD.

Vrtra: well, right now the best strat is....well...ignore it (unless they finally un-ninja the stupid draw-in change) If they haven't fixed it, then really unkillable anyways as you can't kite or even straight tank the **** anymore. Good job SE....

Fafhogg: I'll make the claim right now. You got RR with Magic Attack, capped Magic Attack merits, and capped Wind Blade or Thunderstorm, you are now the best DD there. Between a stupid low resist rate on Merit BPs on them, great damage, and MBing, we now own. BLMs have to back off because of hate...we don't. And no BLM is going to touch an average of 1400-1800/min damage with no stop. However...the only reason why I balk at bringing a ton of SMNs to DA now.....god we suck at claiming...seriously we need something better than Dia for claiming :\



I still find plenty of uses for SMN in Limbus (more Temenos than Appolyon though.)

Now, without a doubt there is places where SMN is worthless (but lots of jobs suffer that.) But if your LS is completely ignoring SMN now, they are making **** a lot harder than it needs to be.


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#18 Apr 25 2009 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
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yrr wrote:
no drg isn't gimp and the majority accepts it to be one of the greatest dds in the game i guess. but there are always some people that are unable, unwilling or just too jealous to correct their point of view.

if you just startet the game i would suggest to choose drg. you'll have to invest much time and some gil if you want all the avatars for your smn as early as possible. for new players that haven't made much friends and gil yet collecting the avatars (especially fenrir and diabolos) can be a real pain. so if you like both i'd suggest to save yourself a bit of frustration and level drg first. both jobs are great anyway.


Something in this one I really want to stress also.

Take it from someone that did SMN as their first 75...it's NOT a good first 75 job, lol. Besides being one of the most complex jobs in the game, it requires a fairly high knowledge of FFXI game mechanics, knowledge of how to work in several party roles, and good knowledge of the macro system. Also, as mentioned with stuff like Fenrir, Diabolos, there is also stuff like Carby mitts, all of which you either need a very good deal of 75 friends helping you, or need to do on another job before you do SMN.

Can it be done...yes. Is it a smart or good thing to do SMN first? No. Your life will be much easier if you do another job that you enjoy first, then go and do SMN with a greater knowledge and better chance at getting the toys you will want.
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#19 Apr 25 2009 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I believe I posted on here the example before that the only job that could even touch me on a early morning with me as the only SMN was 2 top geared DRKs. http://www.dakpluto.net/tiamat110107.html One was a K.club DRK, other Merc. Kris. I came within 6000 total damage of the Merc. Kris DRK. BLMs did a whopping 3%-5% more than the tanks....


Could be fun to parse myself sometime just to see how I fair compared to their BLM and SAM tossing. What are good/easy/not too memory consuming parsers?
#20 Apr 25 2009 at 10:22 AM Rating: Default
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Dragoon are Melee. Summoners are Casters.
Dragoon do the main damage, pet backup. Summoners are reversed.
Dragoon cannot command their pet. Summoner's can.
Dragoon need nothing to leave pet out. Summoner's have a perp. cost.

They are apples and oranges, for the people in this thread seriously trying to compare them, they are seriously nothing alike, IMHO.


Onto the main thread:

End Game, You'll TYPICALLY get more help out of summoner, as a lot of mission fights are astral burned, or require summoners for one reason or another, whereas DRG is simply another DD. However, in things like Nyzul, DRG will get more invites, simply because SMN doesn't fit TOO well into Nyzul, but they CAN. However, for things like Tiamat, Jormy, etc, SMN will CLEARLY win, as we can deliver hate free large damage hits that can do more in one hit than some melee will be able to dish out the entire time.

Soloing is different. At higher lvls, as much as I hate to admit it, DRG can outsolo summoners... EXCEPT on bomb type and goblin type monsters. No class can outkill monsters that have the chance to suicide. Granted, some can kill a lot faster, but summoners are the only ones that can have a 99% success rate. (There's bound to be one event where you cross paths right as it explodes -.-;) Lower lvls, you'll see summoners soloing more, but as they get higher, DRG gets a lot better at soloing.

Grouping... DRG can DD, SMN is typically not really liked in groups, at least on Pandemonium. Each server will give you a different response.



As I said at first, the classes are completely different. In my personal opinion, try them out, then decide. Summoner can get a feel for the job by level 30, and Dragoon is pretty much by level 20, with some extra jumps and weaponskills after that.

Onto my actual opinion:

Endgame: Summoner
Soloing: Dragoon
Partying: Bard/Red Mage.
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#21 Apr 25 2009 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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My shell uses a similar mix of jobs as Mellowy's. I always get annoyed seeing a ton of blms and me as usually the only summoner at Tiamat because they are less effective on him, yet they feel no shame complaining about me coming as smn to most things. These are pimped out geared blms and they have a huge resist rate on Tiamat. Most of their spells land for 100-600 damage while my typical grand fall with no astral pot was hitting 500 damage pre-update (haven't been online for last 3 tiamats. I think the reason for this though is that people who love playing blm generally hate playing smn for some reason, so even when summoner is called for those people will do anything to not have to drag smn gear out of storage and play it. I found 5/5 merit pacts on Tinnin to have a much lower resist rate than blm nukes and same damage, but I still go pup to that.



I think a lot of people are underestimating the speed with which drg has risen through the ranks as a melee DD over the past 3 years. Angon endgame is a large benefit to any zerg, Drg is a solid DD in almost any event or enemy (just not wyrms and dragons how ironic). A lot of events I show up to summoner I get asked to switch to drg because they want more DD. Einherjar, Dynamis, Salvage, Limbus, Zergs, etc i'm usually asked to show up as drg. For most HNM's in endgame summoner is very effective at doing damage to large enemies, and its a great job for nearly any mission across any expansion. I haven't experienced any drg negative stigma in over 2 years. On my server drg burns are extremely popular for meriting and I get merit invites while anon or not seeking on drg just as often as you would on brd (I don't walk around on drg anymore without anon up. So sick of meriting). If you want to have an easy road leveling up i suggest drg because not only is it a powerhouse DD for exp parties, you can solo at any level as drg/mage. Drg solo is far superior in speed and simplicity to smn soloing on anything that does not explode or 1 shot you.


Summoner can be somewhat difficult to level up because its kind of awkward in exp parties. Generally you will be a healer in parties, but ocassionally get to be support role. Summoner is strange in that what it does in parties is not what it does in end game at all. I almost never cure anyone at endgame events, and i'm not expected to. I think you should take Dak's advice on summoner though and consider it as a second job after you've gained game experience and have a lvl75 job to help you gather the things required for summoner. Summoner can be slow and difficult to level if you're unlucky, but I can garuntee you that Drg will level VERY fast and you can pick up smn right after you're done.


I leveled drg 1-75 in 2 weeks 4 years ago, you can probably do it even faster now. The key is to solo for exp in between party invites. And actually a 75drg/mage can solo any of the 6 basic avatars in the protocrystals, so I would personally recommend drg to 75 then smn to 75.
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#22 Apr 25 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:
Quote:
I believe I posted on here the example before that the only job that could even touch me on a early morning with me as the only SMN was 2 top geared DRKs. http://www.dakpluto.net/tiamat110107.html One was a K.club DRK, other Merc. Kris. I came within 6000 total damage of the Merc. Kris DRK. BLMs did a whopping 3%-5% more than the tanks....


Could be fun to parse myself sometime just to see how I fair compared to their BLM and SAM tossing. What are good/easy/not too memory consuming parsers?


Direct Parse is best IMO. The only problem (and all parsers suffer from this) is that you can only get a 100% accurate parse when you are the only SMN. Otherwise you will either get:

1) All people's avatars damage counted as 1

2) false % by filtering to only your pets, and other pets are not counted.

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#23 Apr 25 2009 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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dakpluto wrote:
Mellowy wrote:
Quote:
I believe I posted on here the example before that the only job that could even touch me on a early morning with me as the only SMN was 2 top geared DRKs. http://www.dakpluto.net/tiamat110107.html One was a K.club DRK, other Merc. Kris. I came within 6000 total damage of the Merc. Kris DRK. BLMs did a whopping 3%-5% more than the tanks....


Could be fun to parse myself sometime just to see how I fair compared to their BLM and SAM tossing. What are good/easy/not too memory consuming parsers?


Direct Parse is best IMO. The only problem (and all parsers suffer from this) is that you can only get a 100% accurate parse when you are the only SMN. Otherwise you will either get:

1) All people's avatars damage counted as 1

2) false % by filtering to only your pets, and other pets are not counted.



Kind of funny that I will be the only SMN in 95% of the cases so there won't be a problem.

I assume it is easy to find in google, or are there many trojans around?
#24 Apr 25 2009 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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http://sourceforge.net/projects/directparse


The official site for it.

Edited, Apr 25th 2009 9:27pm by dakpluto
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#25 Apr 27 2009 at 6:12 AM Rating: Decent
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DigiDude wrote:
Dragoon are Melee. Summoners are Casters.
Dragoon do the main damage, pet backup. Summoners are reversed.
Dragoon cannot command their pet. Summoner's can.
Dragoon need nothing to leave pet out. Summoner's have a perp. cost.

They are apples and oranges, for the people in this thread seriously trying to compare them, they are seriously nothing alike, IMHO.


It is indeed apples to oranges, but in the end you still get juice. It just tastes a little different.

If this person is just starting the game, he's probably trying to decide which job he should take to 75 first. Most players choose an advanced job as their first because they're a little more exotic than the basic jobs. These being 2 very opposite ends of the spectrum will also depict which advanced jobs he should start with. I think it's a good question honestly.

BTW... DRG CAN control their pets, you just gotta know how. *Hint: the answer lies in the subjob*
#26 Apr 27 2009 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah...but you can't tell your pet "hey...stupid.....go attack that cactus for me."

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#27 Apr 27 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
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That is because they have the same intelligence as your NPC fellow.
#28 Apr 28 2009 at 6:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Mellowy wrote:
That is because they have the same intelligence as your NPC fellow.


Does this mean that your NPC fellow is only as smart as a lizard, and anything that a BST can charm is smarter?

*edit: I suppose it could also be the inverse. If I was helping someone and they looked at me and said, "Hey, go run up and kick that tiger between the legs." I'd say, "You're crazy, you first."

Edited, Apr 28th 2009 9:42am by Banggugyangu
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