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Part 1: Suggesting Suggestions We’ve Suggested Before.
It’s common in the Allakhazam FFXI forums to see new idea threads criticized early on for being nothing more than re-writes of older ideas. As the person who created the thread, this can be upsetting. Don’t worry about it. In fact, there are dozens of people who view this particular forum of Allakhazam, and these people are only a small section of the hundreds of people who visit the FFXI section of Allakhazam each day. Allakhazam has been around for a very long time, and has been a premier FFXI site for as long as the game has been out. With all of those voices on these forums, it’s hard to imagine that any ideas are ever truly “new” or “novel” anymore.
But that’s okay. Don’t be afraid to post because you are don’t know if your idea is just a repost or not. At the same time, though, don’t take it personally if the first couple of replies to your thread tell you that this has been a subject that has been beaten to death many times before. Take a note about it, and let the thread go if you have nothing new to present. The only time you shouldn’t post is if you know a particular subject has been discussed to the point where no new information will ever come out of it. A common such subject on this forum is a suggestion to remove Perpetuation Cost from Avatars and Spirits. This idea has been discussed, debated, and defeated many, many times since SMN was brought to FFXI. While no one denies that removing Perpetuation Cost would be largely beneficial to how the job class operates, it’s just as recognizable that the developers at SE will never remove the principle drawback to the job class. Every job class has a hindrance, a weak point, and for Summoners, this weak point is our Perpetuation Cost.
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Part 2: Putting On My Yuna Form
Let’s face it, Summoners in Final Fantasy games have a long and rich history. Most every fan of the Final Fantasy genre of RPGs has either a favorite Summoner, or a favorite Summon (mine happens to be Fat Chocobo). But it’s important to remember that the Summoners of past Final Fantasy games are not the Summoners of present-day Final Fantasy Online. The Summoner as it is presented in FFXI is a job class unique to any Final Fantasy, with a playstyle and impact that is also unique amongst the genre.
Because of this, it is almost never a good idea to look for inspiration for your idea threads in other Final Fantasy games. The obvious exception for this is when proposing new avatars. In that respect, most every Final Fantasy game has similar styles of avatars.
Just keep in mind that if your new idea is to be taken seriously, it needs to make sense within the confines of Final Fantasy XI. We can’t “become” our avatars like we could in FFX anymore than we can equip Materia like in FFVII. I know that this is all fictional, but there is a reason why you don’t see stormtroopers fighting Klingons, and why Naruto and Ash don’t go off and fight to destroy the One Ring and save Middle-Earth. Each Final Fantasy is its own universe, and the Summoner from FFXI should be kept separate from the Summoners elsewhere.
By that same token, Summoner is what Summoner is. Any new idea that would end up radically changing the job class at a fundamental level most likely isn't going to happen. Summoners aren't going to be recoded to equip Scorpion Harnesses and Polearms. Avatars aren’g going to be coded to get Samurai-esque job abilities. Spirits aren’t going to be coded to fetch your slippers and the newspaper. You shouldn't expect it to happen that way.
*Note* Suggestions based on World of Warcraft or any of its mechanics is a wholly separate source of forum etiquette. For some reason, people who play FFXI find themselves pitted against people who play WoW like it’s an epic battle amongst online RPGs. I won’t say you shouldn’t post suggestions for Summoner that are inspired by things you’ve found in WoW, but if you choose to do so, expect extra resistance.
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Part 3: Oh Avatar, Where Art Thou?
New Avatar-based suggestions deserve their own section in this guide. More common than the pains of subbing White Mage, Summoners in FFXI are constantly looking for any word, hint, or subtle detail about our next great avatar. As of this thread, there are 6 Celestial Avatars (Titan, Shiva, Garuda, Ifrit, Leviathan, Ramuh), 3 Terrestrial Avatars (Carbuncle, Fenrir, Diabolos), and 8 elemental spirits.
While it is common to wonder about where the next strain on our macros will come from, it’s important to recognize several “beliefs” regarding Avatars in FFXI:
http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?pager.offset=2&cId=3145765&p=
Quote:
1UP: I'm sure you can't be specific, but is Blue Mage the only job you plan to add to Treasures, or do you plan to add others and/or Summons?
HT: I can't say how many new jobs, but Blue Mage is not the only one. And when you say that new summons were not implemented in Chains of Promathia, you're assuming that Chains of Promathia is already finished... [laughs]
HT: I can't say how many new jobs, but Blue Mage is not the only one. And when you say that new summons were not implemented in Chains of Promathia, you're assuming that Chains of Promathia is already finished... [laughs]
The actual origin for where this comes from, however, is here:
http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?pager.offset=3&cId=3148759&p=
Quote:
SUMMONER: One observation the development team has noticed has been the tendency of Summoners to only cast an avatar when they need a specific spell (i.e. Aerial Armor), and then to release them. The team would like the Summoner to leave the avatars out longer. To achieve this it's considering giving the Summoner more MP, although in reality a lower perpetuation cost might be more effective. The duration of Summoner-derived party buffs will depend -- finally -- on the level of a Summoner's summoning magic skill. The FFXI team is planning to add more abilities for avatars. There are no plans to add Bahamut as an avatar. The reason for this is because if the developers were to add Bahamut as a summonable avatar, they would have to reduce his strength considerably, and the team didn't want to do that. New avatars will, however, be added in the future.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Constellation_Chart
(This one is fairly weak in effect. The true assumption is that any new celestial Avatars would probably be bound to this chart). Regardless, this chart has a long and sordid history all its own, being responsible for many damaging rumors and hearsay over the years.
*Note* The poster Nashreen on BG is a friend of Elmer the Pointy and plays under the character name Corinth. He attended the Japanese 2008 Fan Fest with Elmer, and his statements are accepted as he was a first-hand observer of the information.
Information was also released at the NA Fanfest in 2008 where a member of the Development Team has stated (para),
Quote:
Two new avatars are under consideration, including one that is very large. One or both may be implemented in the “not so far future.”
Source: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10;mid=122860974867562811;num=59;page=1
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Part 4: "New Ability" Talking Points
Taking a cue from Part 2, this is a non-inclusive list of common talking points for the Summoners on this (and other) forums when discussing new abilities:
1. Avatar melee
2. PC melee
3. New Avatars
4. Summoning Skill improvements
5. Subjobs
6. Avatar Stats/Skills
7. Bloodpact modifications
8. Bloodpact Additions
9. Unique Abilities (Avatar specific)
10. Unique Abilities (Summoner specific)
Do keep in mind that common talking points will have common reactions and common responses.
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Part 5: Spinning The Thread
With all that has been established thusfar, it is important to give a few pointers on how to structure idea threads.
First, recognize the need. After all, your suggestion is to improve upon the existing job class. It is important to point out the reason why you created the thread in the first place.
Second, know the job class. All too often, certain intricate details about the Summoner job class are neglected, omitted, or forgotten in a new idea. It helps to read things like the stickies at the top of this forum as well as reference material on other information sites to help you gain a full understanding of the job class.
Third, understand the purpose of your post. You are posting an unfinished idea, looking to hear the opinions of others about your work. If you think your idea is perfect the way it is, and you neither want nor care about the opinions of others, then the Summoner Job Class forum on Allakhazam is not the right place for your post. You would do better posting in the Feedback and Suggestions forum (forum=29) of Allakhazam, or even emailing SE through your PlayOnline portal.
Fourth, be as descriptive as possible. I’m not suggesting you create the entire backstory to your new Avatar, but at least include things like potential Bloodpacts, or at the least, a common theme for the Avatar’s abilities.
Fifth, be as specific as possible. If you want to see more gear introduced to the game that has Bloodpact timer reduction on it, explain which gear slots you would like to see and how much reduction you think it appropriate.
Sixth, include any drawbacks that you are aware of. It’s not uncommon for one person to run out of steam mid-design. After all, SE has an entire team of developers that plan these things, and if you are missing a key piece to that new Weapon you want to see introduced, admit it and open yourself up to the opinions of the other forum-goers. In a constructive thread, this will ultimately strengthen the idea.
Last, accept criticism. I know you really, really want your idea to be accepted by the community, but it isn’t always going to happen. Many good ideas go through several versions of change before becoming a finished product. At the same time, what you think is a good idea may not be considered good by the community. It helps to understand and accept these things.
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Part 6: The Patient Rebuttal
Internet forums can be hotbeds for argument, senseless accusations and personal attacks. For some reason, the Summoner forums here at Allakhazam seem to be a focal point for antagonism, logical inaccuracy, and all-around nastiness. I quote this passage from one of the Admins that I got recently in a PM (reposted without permission):
Wordaen wrote:
I don't get called to the [World of Warcraft] forums even a third as often as I get called to the SMN [forums].
As stated above, this particular admin gets more calls regarding heated debate to the Summoner Job Class forum 3 times as often as to the entire World of Warcraft forums.
For those of us who believe we have seen it all, read it all, and know it all, there are some healthy ways to introduce debate without immediately igniting a flame-fest. Based on my experience, it's usually the person or persons who are reubtting that throw the first stones, and while it may help postcount, it's not very beneficial to the forum as a whole.
First, judge the merit of the initial post on the information presented. That is to say, if it is a new idea, try to discuss the new idea. Your first reply to any thread should never be an attack. It’s important to try to remain as patient as you are able for as long as you are able.
Second, ask questions. Many times a new idea thread leaves out key pieces of information. Initially, point those out in the form of a question. Give the Original Poster an opportunity to fine-tune his suggestion. From there you can decide whether or not the idea has merit
Third, do unto others. If the OP is complying with the flow of discussion, do not introduce insults or attacks. If the OP, however, resorts to personal attacks and mudslinging, well, you have license to do the same. I don’t necessarily advocate such low-brow methods of discussion, but it’s no different than attending a dinner as someone else’s guest. The primary rule is to let the host dictate the formality of the evening. Likewise, let the OP of the thread choose how to follow up the initial post.
Fourth, don’t be afraid to give your opinion. After all, opinions drive discussion. But, at the same time, understand that your opinion can and will be challenged by others. Be ready to back up your opinion with fact at all times. The person presenting the idea thread should already be expecting challenges, but that doesn’t mean that your counter-points will remain uncountered themselves.
Last, recognize when a thread has degraded. In conjunction with the third point, oftentimes a thread will simply lose its momentum and unravel into a series of flames and postcount increases. Again, it is up to you to either engage in the event, or remove yourself.
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Part 7: In Conclusion
In conclusion, the Summoner Forums here on Allakhazam are tumultuous on the best days, and nuclear on the worst. I'd like to believe that something like a guide to creating new ideas is frivolous and unnecessary, but I've long since learned that common sense isn't common practice. It is my hope that a guide like this will help organize you newcomers (and some regulars too) so that if you truly think that your idea to improve the job class is worth discussing on this forum, you are prepared for intelligent, safe, positive discussion!
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 9:43am by Acturus
Edited, Dec 10th 2008 11:08pm by Wordaen
