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Vougier's contus or Stingray+2(10% WS)_Follow

#1 Feb 20 2011 at 10:38 PM Rating: Decent
Wondering which will have better DoT in the long run:

DMG122 Lance
DMG105+7 Lance with +10% WS dmg


Also would Light Belt be better than a Ang.Belt?
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#2TaoDRG, Posted: Feb 21 2011 at 3:06 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) When it comes down to the belt choices, and light belt it's more than likely that other belt options will win. Considering that the WS isn't a multi hit. Since Gorget/Belt seem to perform a ton better on those.
#3 Feb 21 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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TheHolyDragoonSeraphus wrote:
Also would Light Belt be better than a Ang.Belt?
For drakesbane? Warwolf better than both in abyssea. Outside either Ang. Belt or Warwolf belt, probably depending on your dDex. Light belt is pretty weak as it's essentially taking drakes from a 4.0ftp WS to a 4.1ftp WS (ftp bonus only applied to 1st hit, same as gorget).

We use Love Torque over Gorget and by essentially the same logic we should use Warwolf over ele belt. Though as metioned above, Warwolf vs Ang.Belt is a tough one. If you needed the acc Ang.Belt would trump it np but outside abyssea you wont on pretty much everything due to the level difference now. I'd probably stick with warwolf outside Abyssea too, you will probably still need dex to get your dDex high, and 5Str on a 50%Str mod WS is pretty big.
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#4 Feb 21 2011 at 7:00 PM Rating: Decent
I've also heard that since WSC is what really matter more in WS calculations than base dmg that Quint Spear might be potentially a great weapon in abyssea. WS would be weak 600-800 but you could WS almost every other second, plus OA2-5 stacks with Jump. Depending on the distribution of multi hits for quint spear it could be pretty nice.
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#5TaoDRG, Posted: Feb 21 2011 at 8:07 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's not all about spamming ws though, and furthermore it would be -too weak-, better off using Love Halberd or the OAT polearm if your aim is to spam, and spam and spam. But while you spam, the monster will also spam TP.
#6 Feb 21 2011 at 11:24 PM Rating: Default
Is our best weapons still Gungnir/Ryunohige? Ryu might be awesome now since the upgraded ToM version of mythics gives +25% to mythic ws dmg which would be awesome for Drakesbane. And I wonder if Ryunohige's enhanced jump effect works for Spirit/Soul Jump.

Edited, Feb 21st 2011 9:24pm by TheHolyDragoonSeraphus
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#7TaoDRG, Posted: Feb 22 2011 at 6:52 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Mythics were only given 15% boost in WS damage from what I heard. The Jump damage on Ryunohige doesn't work with Spirit and Soul Jump and from the last time I pted with Roby, it's not 100% it's only a % increase to crit, but that was way back when.
#8 Feb 23 2011 at 4:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ryunohige is our best lance now. Gungnir isn't so much. Geirskogul may have gotten a healthy damage boost on the 90 version but inside it'll still suck compared to drakes. Outside couldn't say. After that it's basically a weaker version of empyrean lance with 30Acc (which you rarely, if ever, need).
Gungnir: 133 Dmg, Occasionally (very rarely) does 2.5x damage.
Rhongomiant: 132 Dmg, Occasionally (frequently) does 2.0x damage.

Edit: Of course Empy's ODD requires you to use Camlann's Torment, which is basically gierskolulz with a 60% Vit instead of AGI mod, so Relic is probably better as you can have your (rare) 2.5dmg spikes whilst using drakes, but I'd wonder if even the normal OAT lance would be better.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 10:29am by Noodles
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#9 Feb 23 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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so Relic is probably better as you can have your (rare) 2.5dmg spikes whilst using drakes, but I'd wonder if even the normal OAT lance would be better.


I was under the impression that the damage proc on relics doesnt work on WS (otherwise there would be STUPID mercy strokes with the 3x damage proc on it). Also dont forget that double damage is nice and all but double ATK aftermath is still better because it = 2 hits of damage(matches double dam) AND double TP. And the aftermath DA also works on drakes. And you dont have to use a crappy WS to GET the aftermath, and its a 15% boost to one of the best WS in the game. Jump boost or no, the aftermath would still work on spirit/soul.

I would personally put my money on a (properly TP managed) mythic. OAT lance will give relic/Emp a run for its money all by itself purely from TP spam that they cant comepete with. It is basically a better OAT lance so long as you can manage tp well.

*Empy REQUIRES the use of a mediocre ws to get the damage aftermath. THat shoots it in the foot. Otherwise its just a high damage normal lance without that.
*Gugnir is solid since damage proc (rare) is full time. So its high damage lance+damage proc
*OAT lance has lower damage but TP spams the bejesus out of both making up in WS frequency what it lacks in damage (and double TP spirit/soul jumps for mroe insane tp) keeping it on competative grounds (maybe even beats them. Cant say with certainty which way it tips).

*Ryunhidge: Double attack>double damage. Higher DA rate than Corsesca+2 (that can work on WS) with a straight 15% boost to drakes and very competitive base damage. The only condition being that you need to occasionally wait to 300 TP to redo DA aftermath to get the boost. But with DA working on spirit/soul jumps and general DA TP, I dont think that will be terribly problematic if used with care/intelligence.

I dont think that extra 1-2 WS you would get from corsesca while saving tp to 300 with mythic occasionally will beat out the 10% higher DA rate (more DPS+TP) the far higher DPS, far higher WS (high base damage+15% boost) not to mention better jumps (10% more DA and base damage).

All that said, there is something to be said about NOT having to manage aftermaths. I am just now (as of 2 days ago) trying to adjust my thf playstyle to maximize my twashtar aftermath (a joyous problem to have xD), but it makes it more complex because mythic DA aftermath will never be 100% on with no wasted TP, even moreso with a 300tp requirement that cant be overwritten until it wears off. You are 100% guaranteed to waste TP with that system. Corsesca is just beautifully simple and easy to optimize. There are no conditions to make it work well. For that reason, I really feel corsesca will keep up and might actually have an edge in-game even if it doesnt on paper.
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#10TaoDRG, Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 12:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Gungnir also poses a 19.7% Def Down, not 17% as Wiki so ignorantly expresses.
#11 Feb 23 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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As far as the damage boost that Ryunohige has gained from the update, 15%. Have you compared this to the damage difference on Gungnir to see what exactly is the % difference? That factored, your results may vary.


The overall damage of drakes between the raw base damage of the 3 lances in question (relic/mythic/Corsesca) isnt quite as wildly different as you might think just looking at the lance base damage. A 50% str mod means a TON of our damage comes from raw str (compared to say a 30% mod on something like evis). All the weapons have access to the same +str, +DA, +atk, +crit damage/rate gear and atmas. So basically, we can just look at the raw str and base damage to figure out what the difference in WS will be (with a few caveats later).

Corsesca+2=D94 (Fstr cap=18)
Ryunhidge=D125 (Fstr cap=21)
Gugnir=D133 (Fstr cap=22)

In my gear/food, i have 84+73 str. In abyssea lets assume VV/RR/Apoc+cruor buffs. 50str VV and (max)70 cruor buff.

Abyssea Str=84+73+50+70=277 (caps Fstr guaranteed)
Normal Str=84+73=157 (on a hypothetical mob, i had 21 fst. Gugnir caps at 22, so i just pretended to have 22 fst exactly for simplicity)

So, lets check out base damage+fstr+wsc. The root of all drakesbane damage. Everything just multiplies this number. Atk, crit rate, crit damage etc are ALL based on the raw base damage of the combined lance/fstr/wsc:

NON-Abyssea:(ryun gets +15% too)
Corsesca: 94+18+64=176
Gugnir: 133+22+64=219
Ryun: 125+21+64=210*1.15=241.5

Abyssea: (ryun +15% again)
Corsesca: 94+18+114=226
Gugnir: 133+22+114=269
Ryun: 125+21+114=260*1.15=299

So if i use corsesca as a base (ie its 1.00) how much more damage do the others do over it?
NON-Abyssea:
Corsesca=100%
Gugnir=124.4%
Ryun=137.3%

Abyssea:
Corsesca=100%
Gugnir=123.5%
Ryun=136.3%

If you WS in MY gear, this is the difference if you changed out my weapon. Obviously gear differs, but it is not going to swing anything wildly so long as you use the same gear for all 3 weapons. Gugnir only WS ~25% harder than corsesca. That may be shocking, but it is the truth. Also that 15% CANNOT be underestimated. With NO bonus, Gugnir only WS like 3-4% harder than ryun. That is WAY less than 15%. Ryun is the undisputed king of drakes by a long shot.

Now, if gugnir only WS <25% harder than corsesca, corsesca only needs to do 25% MORE ws (through DA TP) than a gugnir to match it in raw WS damage. Outside abyssea, 40% DA rate and easy(er) 5hit does that easily (not to mention 40% DA on soul/spirit= far more TP). It is not a big stretch to say that corsesca will put out more WS damage than a gungnir over time. Is that enough to ALSO beat the gugnirs melee DPS? I dont know without doing some REALLY in depth analysis, but it WILL be in the same general ball park in a raw dog TP spam non-stop scenario.

Ryun beats the bejesus outta everything in raw WS damage, but will loose the TP war in similar fasion to corsesca (though not as badly since it WS freakishly hard). However, its melee side is weakker than gugnir UNLESS it does the 300tp aftermath. That boosts its TP and DPS AND WS damage (DA aftermath works on WS), but requires all that TP saving/manipulation which cuts in damage. That one is even harder to measure because it is much more complex to measure and dependant on so many factors.

Also food for thought, Base DPS:
Gug: 16.2
Ryun: 15.24 (22.86)
Cors: 11.12(15.57)

The (xx.xx) is a straight multiplier based on the DA. 40% corsesca, 50% ryun. The DA numbers are exaggerated because it does not include any DA/TA stuff equipped which will close the gap between gugnir and the rest. It also doesnt include the 2.5x proc or even more stuff like 'how much is the DA aftermath actually on' etc. But it is good food for thought regarding melee damage.

Corsesca isnt really all that terribly off of the relics in DPS, flatly out TPs everything, and isnt as far behind in raw per WS damage as most would think when they just look at teh lance base damage. Everything above ignores the 2.5x proc and thus underestimates gugnir (though the WS procs are so rare, it wont adjust the AVG by a whole lot) and this ignores the DA aftermath procs on WS for ryun (which push it up farhter). It is very hard to measure the totality of ryun on paper with teh funky aftermath. Also, obviously ignoring the acc on gugnir. Not terribly important right now, could verywell be a game changing aspect at 99 if we get outside lolAbyssea god status and back to 'real' mobs. Similarly the def down proc helps, but harder to quantify. We can hand pick situations that each would probably edge out the others, say a zerg with 300tp stored up, Ryun will DESTROY everything. But in constant melee, ryun will have to deal with the finicky aftermath to TRY to keep up. It is all very situational.

Dont get me wrong, I am not going to sit here and say corsesca just pwns relics or anything. I am just making the case that it IS an EXTREMELY competative lance and (imo) the flat out best option next to a relic/mythic/empy and (at least in SOME situations) has the potential to stay up there with them, and (MAYBE) given favorable conditions, edge them out occasionally. I wont say anything with certainty without having nearly enough experience with the relic/mythic except this. Corsesca is a beast in the right hands.

It is hard to compare because most serious drgs with a rellic/mythic/emp are geared to the teeth and play well. They probably dont really see any of the 'lesser' drgs competing without a relic cuz their competition isnt nearly as well geared/played. But I can say similarly from the other side (my drg is geared/played very well) that corsesca has put me so far over the top of other great players it isnt even funny. I also am very competative with Empy wars, relic wars and others i have run across, but I do not personally know any other drgs at my level of proficiency with a gugnir/ryun to really get a feel for what those weapons real potential are. But on paper at least, corsesca hangs with em.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 6:07pm by Banalaty
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#12 Feb 23 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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i'm too behind regarding atmas, item availability, etc, but someone mentioned "i heard that WSC is what matters in abyssea now." what's going on is that WSC is the one part of the offensive equation that doesn't cap. fSTR only goes so high, pDIF only goes so high, so if atmas cap either, the last area available for expansion is WSC. also, if you have the right WS (ie one with high mods like drakesbane), WSC is pretty easy to raise in the first place.

for drakesbane, WSC = your strength * 50% (* level correction). i don't know what level correction is at 76~90, last i heard it was, i think, .8 at lv90?

anyway, the total WS damage equation is

(weapon damage PLUS fSTR PLUS WSC) MULTIPLIED BY pDIF

the point is that it's left side times right side. right side is somewhere between 0 and 3 or so, while left side is some number over 100 and it steadily goes up by 1 ever .4~ STR or so.

so, if you know what kind of STR you normally have, you can see what kind of DMG bonus you'll get from a larger DMG polearm, or adding even more STR. factor in delay and melee DoT and you get a rough idea of comparative value of polearms.

in other words, if you know yours stats, you can see how big a deal WSC is vs other factors. for example, suppose you had 300 STR. we'll stipulate that you cap fSTR in this situation (which you would anyway), and we'll assume you're capping ATT as well, and that you pretty much always crit (so we'll just forget those stats).

say you're comparing a 100 damage polearm and an OA2-3 40 damage polearm w/ 30% chance to attack once, 50% chance to attack twice, 20% chance to attack 3 times. both polearms have the same delay.

so, melee average damage is (around)

d100:
(100+19) * 3 = 357 dmg/hit

OA2-3:
(40+12) * 3 = 156 dmg/hit

and drakesbane average damage is around (we'll assume you DA once on average)

d100:
(100+19+120 [WSC]) * 3 * 5 = 3585

d40:
(40+12+120) * 3 * 5 = 2580

-----

so before taking frequency into account, we see that d100 hits 129% harder in melee, but it WSs only 39% harder.

the OA2-3 swings 1.9 times per round, so you can say its dmg/round is 296.4.

[i'm abstracting away from DA, since i know that works in concert with love halberd but i have no idea about magian or any other weapons, so it's up to you to consider that:)]

it's no surprise that d100 wins melee damage, b/c it's hitting 129% harder while the OAT is swinging 90% more often (this is the main point i'm trying to make and am usually trying to make in posts like this: you can distill these long comparisons down and find those crucial factors: "around X% harder" vs "around Y% more often" and start to make generalizations about how valuable certain things are given the weapons available to you).

similarly, you'll WS about 90% more often with the OA2-3, while you only WS around 40% harder with the d100. this big dropoff is due, exactly, to WSC more or less "filling in" for the low damage, as the larger WSC gets, the thinner the margin between 2 disparate WD weapons.

but is WSC "all that matters"? you have to look at the raw numbers to find out. i'm just posting this because if you're "hearing" about WSC, you don't need to hear about it, you can get in there with the raw numbers yourself. it won't be exact, but if you take everything into consideration (DA / crit / etc differences, store TP, etc) you'll get a good idea. also, if 1 weapon is way better than another, that should show itself rather quickly when you start putting actual numbers into the equations.

edit: showed some of my work at the bottom their, oops. in other news, i actually had to look up how to calculate weapon rank ;_;. sad how knowledge fades with time.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 6:22pm by milich
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#13TaoDRG, Posted: Feb 23 2011 at 9:06 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Weapon Rank determines the lower cap and upper cap of fSTR and fSTR2.
#14 Feb 24 2011 at 12:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fstr upper cap is Weapon Rank+8. So instead of 10/13/14 for cor/ryu/gug its 18/21/22.

As for WS damage, Drakes has a 50% str mod. The Str mod (WSC) is just base damage added on just like adding Fstr or Weapon damage. So if you have 200 str and the alpha is 0.85 at lv 90 (not 100% sure on that) then 200 str adds +83 base damage. So your Drakes WS damage would be:

Weapon damage + Fstr + WSC

If you have a gugnir and capped fstr with 200 str its:
133+12+83

So your TOTAL base damage for EACH hit of drakes is 228. This is all we need to know to do a basic WS comparison because the whole thing is based on that 228. That is 1 hit. Drakes is 4hit so its 228*4. Take that and multiply by Pdif. Add crit calcs etc. It is all just multiplying that original 228. Because of that, we can just compare that raw total base damage number with other lances and find out how much stronger drakes is.

That is how the numbers in my last post are derived.

Basically, Weapon damage is only ONE part of your drakes damage. Str makes up a giant chunk of it. That +83 damage you still get even if your lance is a Damage 1 lance. A LOT of drakesbane damage has NOTHING to do with your actual lance, but your str. A weapon with 2x the base damage of another wont do 2x the damage on drakes. For example, lets look at an imaginary D1 lance with the same 200 str. (Fstr is still weapon rank+8 dont forget so D1 lance still has 8fstr cap)

Gugnir:
133+12+83=228

D1 lance:
1+8+83=92

228/92=248%

A gugnir has 133 times the base damage of the D1 lance. But with 200 str will only drakesbane 2.48x harder than a Damage ONE lance. 2.5 times more than a D1 even though Gugnir has ONE HUNDRED & THIRTY THREE times more base damage.

This is why the difference between base damage simply isnt as big as one might think just looking at the lance's actual base damage because there is 'free' damage that comes from str tacked on that has nothing to do with your base damage.
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#15 Feb 24 2011 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:
Quote:
so Relic is probably better as you can have your (rare) 2.5dmg spikes whilst using drakes, but I'd wonder if even the normal OAT lance would be better.


I was under the impression that the damage proc on relics doesnt work on WS (otherwise there would be STUPID mercy strokes with the 3x damage proc on it).
Oh of course, I meant you're not limited to a crap mediocre WS to keep the 2.5 damage procs, so you can have them in the TP phase whilst still spamming drakes.
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#16TaoDRG, Posted: Feb 24 2011 at 4:33 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Thanks for that explanation on that, I definitely understand what you mean about comparing a well geared character to another. It does change and skew views quite a bit as far as damage vs damage goes. I have tried rather weak weapons vs others too though. In example Quint Lance vs Gungnir x.x; I tried it to check it out, the WS damage was really unimpressive at all though, and was completely raped by my Gungnir. But I can understand what you mean by the formulas shown etc.
#17 Aug 14 2011 at 11:27 PM Rating: Decent
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So in regards to Corsesca +2. Is it worth the trouble to upgrade to it? Is it better than Vougier's Contus
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#18 Aug 15 2011 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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So in regards to Corsesca +2. Is it worth the trouble to upgrade to it? Is it better than Vougier's Contus


I would say quite comfortably as an owner of both, Corsesca+2 (OAT version) beats the pants off Vougier's. Also, update is in a few weeks with level cap to 95. Guess which of those 2 lances will get an upgrade? :P

The nice thing about (insert magian) vs XXX Weapon is that the magians will all grow to 99. The rare/ex stuff isnt going anywhere.
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#19 Aug 16 2011 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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Will be interesting to see what they do with all the magian weapons at 90. OAT is amazing compared to the others now, but one little update could change things up quite a bit.
#20 Oct 26 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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So I'm almost done with my Trials for my Landebeve. I'm using the -DMG taken route mostly for when I solo.
Now as for when I'm in group play I'm having a hard time picking which route to take. The Corsesca +2 with +63 DMG (for a total of 117) and +8 Dbl att Looks nice but the Rhongomiant+2 with 146 and aftermath "occ deals double dmg" seems to blow it away.
Am I missing something? Am I underestimating Dbl attack on the Corsesca? Should I be looking at a different Lance instead of these?
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#21 Oct 27 2011 at 9:58 AM Rating: Good
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Rhongomont is and 'empyream weapon' and therefore MUCH harder to get. It will beat the 8DA corsesca easily, but it will take you a lot more work to obtain. Up to you if you are down for that kinda comitment (or if you even can. Dunno your personal playtime/connections etc). Rhongomont is basically the equivalent of a relic weapon to obtain and should not jump into it lightly.

However, if Rhongo is to stiff, then i HIGHLY HIGHLY reccommend trying for the occ. Atk. Twice Corsesca path. Note, this is NOT the DA+8 one. Its a different fork on that path that basically gives you the equivalent of a Joyeuse lance and is the one being talked about in this thread.
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#22 Oct 27 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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Banalaty wrote:


However, if Rhongo is to stiff, then i HIGHLY HIGHLY reccommend trying for the occ. Atk. Twice Corsesca path. Note, this is NOT the DA+8 one. Its a different fork on that path that basically gives you the equivalent of a Joyeuse lance and is the one being talked about in this thread.


Thank you. Fully noted. I'll put some thought into trying to start my trials for a Rhongomiant. However I have a question, why is the occ atk twice better than the DA+8? Aside from the mentioned added effects, the stats on the DA seem better. Once again.... what am I missing?
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#23 Oct 28 2011 at 8:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Its basically the ridiculous amount of TP you get. You loose some base damage, but gain what is basically ~32+ more double attack (supposedly around ~40% DA rate).

DA+8 version has 123 base damage and DA+8.
OA2 version has 102.

Melee: DA lance has 20% more base damage. OA2 hits 30% more often. So just swinging at stuff, OA2 lance actually does more damage despite the lower base damage. 30%>20%. This also applies to jumps as the DA procs for both weapons work on jumps so OA2 lance wins for the same reason there as well.

WS: OA2 lance lands ~30% more swings than DA version. Thats 30% more TP from melee and 30% more TP from our (very high TP) jumps. That works out to roughly 30% more WS (less since no one WS at 100 all the time so some gets wasted no matter what). That 20% more base damage on DA version means less than 20% higher WS because of (rather large) 50% str mod that both weapons get. This is where id point to my previous post comparing drakes using a D94 corsesca+2 vs a D133 Gugnir (at lv 90). This is a bigger difference than the now lv 95 versions of OA2(D102) and the DA (D123) versions at lv 95.

The gist of it is, no OA2 lance wont have the big epeen drakes the other weapons have, but it makes up for lower damage during melee with simply hitting more. It makes up for lower WS damage by simply doing more WS than the competition. Think of it like a war using swordchucks (ridil/joy) at lv 75 instead of using Axe/Axe. (if you were around then :P). Axe/axe hits really friggin hard and has epic rampages, but ridil/joy hits SO MUCH faster and gets SO MUCH more TP that it wins based purely on speed.

OA2 lance is just the speed build designed to hit weaker and WS weaker, but make up for it and then some by just pushing them so fast.
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#24 Oct 28 2011 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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562 posts
Thanks a ton for taking the time to fully explain all of that. It makes perfect sense! I still want a Rhongomiant, but I'm sure we all want one. So I'll put in some research and see how do-able that really is for me. No real harm in having a OA2 lance until those trials are done.... except space in my gobbiebag.
____________________________
The more I train, the harder I get. The harder I get, the more lethal I am. The more lethal I am, the fewer opponents. The fewer opponents, the less to lose. The less to lose, the more I let up. The more I let up, the more room for mistakes. The more room for mistakes, the more I train.

#25 Jul 27 2012 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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4,902 posts
Wow so many old names still around. Interesting to see.
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