Vougier's contus or Stingray+2(10% WS)_Follow

Wondering which will have better DoT in the long run:

DMG122 Lance
DMG105+7 Lance with +10% WS dmg


Also would Light Belt be better than a Ang.Belt?

For drakesbane? Warwolf better than both in abyssea. Outside either Ang. Belt or Warwolf belt, probably depending on your dDex. Light belt is pretty weak as it's essentially taking drakes from a 4.0ftp WS to a 4.1ftp WS (ftp bonus only applied to 1st hit, same as gorget).

We use Love Torque over Gorget and by essentially the same logic we should use Warwolf over ele belt. Though as metioned above, Warwolf vs Ang.Belt is a tough one. If you needed the acc Ang.Belt would trump it np but outside abyssea you wont on pretty much everything due to the level difference now. I'd probably stick with warwolf outside Abyssea too, you will probably still need dex to get your dDex high, and 5Str on a 50%Str mod WS is pretty big.

I was under the impression that the damage proc on relics doesnt work on WS (otherwise there would be STUPID mercy strokes with the 3x damage proc on it). Also dont forget that double damage is nice and all but double ATK aftermath is still better because it = 2 hits of damage(matches double dam) AND double TP. And the aftermath DA also works on drakes. And you dont have to use a crappy WS to GET the aftermath, and its a 15% boost to one of the best WS in the game. Jump boost or no, the aftermath would still work on spirit/soul.

I would personally put my money on a (properly TP managed) mythic. OAT lance will give relic/Emp a run for its money all by itself purely from TP spam that they cant comepete with. It is basically a better OAT lance so long as you can manage tp well.

*Empy REQUIRES the use of a mediocre ws to get the damage aftermath. THat shoots it in the foot. Otherwise its just a high damage normal lance without that.
*Gugnir is solid since damage proc (rare) is full time. So its high damage lance+damage proc
*OAT lance has lower damage but TP spams the bejesus out of both making up in WS frequency what it lacks in damage (and double TP spirit/soul jumps for mroe insane tp) keeping it on competative grounds (maybe even beats them. Cant say with certainty which way it tips).

*Ryunhidge: Double attack>double damage. Higher DA rate than Corsesca+2 (that can work on WS) with a straight 15% boost to drakes and very competitive base damage. The only condition being that you need to occasionally wait to 300 TP to redo DA aftermath to get the boost. But with DA working on spirit/soul jumps and general DA TP, I dont think that will be terribly problematic if used with care/intelligence.

I dont think that extra 1-2 WS you would get from corsesca while saving tp to 300 with mythic occasionally will beat out the 10% higher DA rate (more DPS+TP) the far higher DPS, far higher WS (high base damage+15% boost) not to mention better jumps (10% more DA and base damage).

All that said, there is something to be said about NOT having to manage aftermaths. I am just now (as of 2 days ago) trying to adjust my thf playstyle to maximize my twashtar aftermath (a joyous problem to have xD), but it makes it more complex because mythic DA aftermath will never be 100% on with no wasted TP, even moreso with a 300tp requirement that cant be overwritten until it wears off. You are 100% guaranteed to waste TP with that system. Corsesca is just beautifully simple and easy to optimize. There are no conditions to make it work well. For that reason, I really feel corsesca will keep up and might actually have an edge in-game even if it doesnt on paper.

The overall damage of drakes between the raw base damage of the 3 lances in question (relic/mythic/Corsesca) isnt quite as wildly different as you might think just looking at the lance base damage. A 50% str mod means a TON of our damage comes from raw str (compared to say a 30% mod on something like evis). All the weapons have access to the same +str, +DA, +atk, +crit damage/rate gear and atmas. So basically, we can just look at the raw str and base damage to figure out what the difference in WS will be (with a few caveats later).

Corsesca+2=D94 (Fstr cap=18)
Ryunhidge=D125 (Fstr cap=21)
Gugnir=D133 (Fstr cap=22)

In my gear/food, i have 84+73 str. In abyssea lets assume VV/RR/Apoc+cruor buffs. 50str VV and (max)70 cruor buff.

Abyssea Str=84+73+50+70=277 (caps Fstr guaranteed)
Normal Str=84+73=157 (on a hypothetical mob, i had 21 fst. Gugnir caps at 22, so i just pretended to have 22 fst exactly for simplicity)

So, lets check out base damage+fstr+wsc. The root of all drakesbane damage. Everything just multiplies this number. Atk, crit rate, crit damage etc are ALL based on the raw base damage of the combined lance/fstr/wsc:

NON-Abyssea:(ryun gets +15% too)
Corsesca: 94+18+64=176
Gugnir: 133+22+64=219
Ryun: 125+21+64=210*1.15=241.5

Abyssea: (ryun +15% again)
Corsesca: 94+18+114=226
Gugnir: 133+22+114=269
Ryun: 125+21+114=260*1.15=299

So if i use corsesca as a base (ie its 1.00) how much more damage do the others do over it?
NON-Abyssea:
Corsesca=100%
Gugnir=124.4%
Ryun=137.3%

Abyssea:
Corsesca=100%
Gugnir=123.5%
Ryun=136.3%

If you WS in MY gear, this is the difference if you changed out my weapon. Obviously gear differs, but it is not going to swing anything wildly so long as you use the same gear for all 3 weapons. Gugnir only WS ~25% harder than corsesca. That may be shocking, but it is the truth. Also that 15% CANNOT be underestimated. With NO bonus, Gugnir only WS like 3-4% harder than ryun. That is WAY less than 15%. Ryun is the undisputed king of drakes by a long shot.

Now, if gugnir only WS <25% harder than corsesca, corsesca only needs to do 25% MORE ws (through DA TP) than a gugnir to match it in raw WS damage. Outside abyssea, 40% DA rate and easy(er) 5hit does that easily (not to mention 40% DA on soul/spirit= far more TP). It is not a big stretch to say that corsesca will put out more WS damage than a gungnir over time. Is that enough to ALSO beat the gugnirs melee DPS? I dont know without doing some REALLY in depth analysis, but it WILL be in the same general ball park in a raw dog TP spam non-stop scenario.

Ryun beats the bejesus outta everything in raw WS damage, but will loose the TP war in similar fasion to corsesca (though not as badly since it WS freakishly hard). However, its melee side is weakker than gugnir UNLESS it does the 300tp aftermath. That boosts its TP and DPS AND WS damage (DA aftermath works on WS), but requires all that TP saving/manipulation which cuts in damage. That one is even harder to measure because it is much more complex to measure and dependant on so many factors.

Also food for thought, Base DPS:
Gug: 16.2
Ryun: 15.24 (22.86)
Cors: 11.12(15.57)

The (xx.xx) is a straight multiplier based on the DA. 40% corsesca, 50% ryun. The DA numbers are exaggerated because it does not include any DA/TA stuff equipped which will close the gap between gugnir and the rest. It also doesnt include the 2.5x proc or even more stuff like 'how much is the DA aftermath actually on' etc. But it is good food for thought regarding melee damage.

Corsesca isnt really all that terribly off of the relics in DPS, flatly out TPs everything, and isnt as far behind in raw per WS damage as most would think when they just look at teh lance base damage. Everything above ignores the 2.5x proc and thus underestimates gugnir (though the WS procs are so rare, it wont adjust the AVG by a whole lot) and this ignores the DA aftermath procs on WS for ryun (which push it up farhter). It is very hard to measure the totality of ryun on paper with teh funky aftermath. Also, obviously ignoring the acc on gugnir. Not terribly important right now, could verywell be a game changing aspect at 99 if we get outside lolAbyssea god status and back to 'real' mobs. Similarly the def down proc helps, but harder to quantify. We can hand pick situations that each would probably edge out the others, say a zerg with 300tp stored up, Ryun will DESTROY everything. But in constant melee, ryun will have to deal with the finicky aftermath to TRY to keep up. It is all very situational.

Dont get me wrong, I am not going to sit here and say corsesca just pwns relics or anything. I am just making the case that it IS an EXTREMELY competative lance and (imo) the flat out best option next to a relic/mythic/empy and (at least in SOME situations) has the potential to stay up there with them, and (MAYBE) given favorable conditions, edge them out occasionally. I wont say anything with certainty without having nearly enough experience with the relic/mythic except this. Corsesca is a beast in the right hands.

It is hard to compare because most serious drgs with a rellic/mythic/emp are geared to the teeth and play well. They probably dont really see any of the 'lesser' drgs competing without a relic cuz their competition isnt nearly as well geared/played. But I can say similarly from the other side (my drg is geared/played very well) that corsesca has put me so far over the top of other great players it isnt even funny. I also am very competative with Empy wars, relic wars and others i have run across, but I do not personally know any other drgs at my level of proficiency with a gugnir/ryun to really get a feel for what those weapons real potential are. But on paper at least, corsesca hangs with em.

Edited, Feb 23rd 2011 6:07pm by Banalaty

Oh of course, I meant you're not limited to a crap mediocre WS to keep the 2.5 damage procs, so you can have them in the TP phase whilst still spamming drakes.

Will be interesting to see what they do with all the magian weapons at 90. OAT is amazing compared to the others now, but one little update could change things up quite a bit.

Rhongomont is and 'empyream weapon' and therefore MUCH harder to get. It will beat the 8DA corsesca easily, but it will take you a lot more work to obtain. Up to you if you are down for that kinda comitment (or if you even can. Dunno your personal playtime/connections etc). Rhongomont is basically the equivalent of a relic weapon to obtain and should not jump into it lightly.

However, if Rhongo is to stiff, then i HIGHLY HIGHLY reccommend trying for the occ. Atk. Twice Corsesca path. Note, this is NOT the DA+8 one. Its a different fork on that path that basically gives you the equivalent of a Joyeuse lance and is the one being talked about in this thread.

Its basically the ridiculous amount of TP you get. You loose some base damage, but gain what is basically ~32+ more double attack (supposedly around ~40% DA rate).

DA+8 version has 123 base damage and DA+8.
OA2 version has 102.

Melee: DA lance has 20% more base damage. OA2 hits 30% more often. So just swinging at stuff, OA2 lance actually does more damage despite the lower base damage. 30%>20%. This also applies to jumps as the DA procs for both weapons work on jumps so OA2 lance wins for the same reason there as well.

WS: OA2 lance lands ~30% more swings than DA version. Thats 30% more TP from melee and 30% more TP from our (very high TP) jumps. That works out to roughly 30% more WS (less since no one WS at 100 all the time so some gets wasted no matter what). That 20% more base damage on DA version means less than 20% higher WS because of (rather large) 50% str mod that both weapons get. This is where id point to my previous post comparing drakes using a D94 corsesca+2 vs a D133 Gugnir (at lv 90). This is a bigger difference than the now lv 95 versions of OA2(D102) and the DA (D123) versions at lv 95.

The gist of it is, no OA2 lance wont have the big epeen drakes the other weapons have, but it makes up for lower damage during melee with simply hitting more. It makes up for lower WS damage by simply doing more WS than the competition. Think of it like a war using swordchucks (ridil/joy) at lv 75 instead of using Axe/Axe. (if you were around then :P). Axe/axe hits really friggin hard and has epic rampages, but ridil/joy hits SO MUCH faster and gets SO MUCH more TP that it wins based purely on speed.

OA2 lance is just the speed build designed to hit weaker and WS weaker, but make up for it and then some by just pushing them so fast.