640 posts

Category Two of course... are the single best thing I've merited on Sam.

No, really! Overwhelm is awesome if you are tanking, otherwise in Aby hate jumps so often the mob is usually spinning like a top. I love it but yesterday finally showed me why Zanshin merits are so incredible.

I was fighting Durinn to help some friends get MM atma on my Sam/War. I had VV/Sea Daughter/WBKing on for max TP.

I ran up to melee Durinn with my sword(going for proc) my TP went from 30% to 300% by the time I opened my menu to use WS and I honestly looked like I had a K.Club on instead of a Seiryu's Sword. Even with a little sword, Zanshin seemed to give 25-30TP area per swing. It was amazing.

I also had an instance where I WS'd then Double-Attacked (one hit miss, so I Zanshin'd) and TP was already over 50%(partially due to Regain I would assume).

I know this topic is basically a "duh, everyone knows what Sam does" but honestly, I so rarely get to play Sam in groups that this really made me think about why I have a Bushinomimi and how much I love this job.

No, really! Overwhelm is awesome if you are tanking, otherwise in Aby hate jumps so often the mob is usually spinning like a top. I love it but yesterday finally showed me why Zanshin merits are so incredible.

I was fighting Durinn to help some friends get MM atma on my Sam/War. I had VV/Sea Daughter/WBKing on for max TP.

I ran up to melee Durinn with my sword(going for proc) my TP went from 30% to 300% by the time I opened my menu to use WS and I honestly looked like I had a K.Club on instead of a Seiryu's Sword. Even with a little sword, Zanshin seemed to give 25-30TP area per swing. It was amazing.

I also had an instance where I WS'd then Double-Attacked (one hit miss, so I Zanshin'd) and TP was already over 50%(partially due to Regain I would assume).

I know this topic is basically a "duh, everyone knows what Sam does" but honestly, I so rarely get to play Sam in groups that this really made me think about why I have a Bushinomimi and how much I love this job.

I'm a Combat Medic, I will always come for you.

Jack of All Trades

29,120 posts

Seems to me this thread should have been called "Regain atmas" instead...

Scholar

2,607 posts

We talkin about Ikishoten?

You get +15TP before STP is added in with 5/5 Ikishoten, i'd guess that'd make quite a noticable difference using a sword with a lowish hit rate.

Oh, and the regain.

You get +15TP before STP is added in with 5/5 Ikishoten, i'd guess that'd make quite a noticable difference using a sword with a lowish hit rate.

Oh, and the regain.

Sage

712 posts

I dont know, I personally put my merits into stp/meditate as that would give me the biggest over all damage increase. If anything I could consider third eye being the next candidate. Zanshin is already at a 45% proc rate with sam main. Merits put it at 50%. At capped accuracy, that means youll get an extra 25 swings every 1000 swings. In those 1000 swings, that means you averaged about 3 extra zanshin swings with those merits.

In the same amount of time, you could of gotten 3 extra meditates, which imo beat out the merits for zanshin. Dont get me wrong, zanshin is good and it has some good uses. However I wouldnt drop other stats or useful abilities in place of something very situational.

SERVER: IFRIT In the same amount of time, you could of gotten 3 extra meditates, which imo beat out the merits for zanshin. Dont get me wrong, zanshin is good and it has some good uses. However I wouldnt drop other stats or useful abilities in place of something very situational.

640 posts

hitoseijuro wrote:

I dont know, I personally put my merits into stp/meditate as that would give me the biggest over all damage increase. If anything I could consider third eye being the next candidate. Zanshin is already at a 45% proc rate with sam main. Merits put it at 50%. At capped accuracy, that means youll get an extra 25 swings every 1000 swings. In those 1000 swings, that means you averaged about 3 extra zanshin swings with those merits.

In the same amount of time, you could of gotten 3 extra meditates, which imo beat out the merits for zanshin. Dont get me wrong, zanshin is good and it has some good uses. However I wouldnt drop other stats or useful abilities in place of something very situational.

In the same amount of time, you could of gotten 3 extra meditates, which imo beat out the merits for zanshin. Dont get me wrong, zanshin is good and it has some good uses. However I wouldnt drop other stats or useful abilities in place of something very situational.

I meant Category II, Ikishoten, I just didn't know the specific name at the time.

I of course have 5/5 STP 5/5 Meditate :D but I have 4 Ikishoten and it's actually really sweet lol.

I'm a Combat Medic, I will always come for you.

Sage

100 posts

A did 5/5 iki a very long time ago before I took SAM seriously. Its pretty crazy now with all the stp gear available.

Apoc,Yoichi

Masa,Cala,Vere,Kannagi

Sage

10,813 posts

Dinishte wrote:

I also had an instance where I WS'd then Double-Attacked (one hit miss, so I Zanshin'd) and TP was already over 50%(partially due to Regain I would assume).

what are you saying here? can you zanshin off a DA? i don't believe you can (or at least i don't believe you could back when i played). is that what you are claiming happened? are you sure it's what happened?

212 posts

Zanshin cannot occur in conjunction with Double Attack. One or the other may occur, but not both during the same attack phase (i.e. you will not swing your weapon more than twice in one attack phase). It also does not proc during ws's.

-Wiki

*Edited, Mar 24th 2011 1:54am by Ennoyvl *

-Wiki

Zilart- completed

CoP- completed

Toau- completed

WoTg- (Sandy nation)- in progress

ACP- completed

MKD- completed

ASA- completed

Kayle is no more....

To quit before you start would make the start of something poor. Your only as good as the effort you put in.

Sage

798 posts

I played around with the math some, and assuming you have a 95% hit rate, 45% Zanshin proc rate, and 0 Double Attack or Triple Attack rate, an Ikishoten Zanshin swing should reduce your attack rounds to 100TP in about 6% of all TP build cycles. Rounds which would cause you to go over 100TP are not included in that 6%. That is the best case scenario for it, and any double attack or triple attack gear or atma is going to lower that number down. So yeah, it does help you out, but best case it helps you on like 1/16 TP build cycles to 100.

Scholar

1,237 posts

If you have 95% acc

81% chance 4 hits will land in a row

77% chance 5 hits will land in a row

73% chance 6 hits will land in a row

Since each cycle to 100 tp is independant of the previous, in 100 rounds to 100tp, a 4 hit build will require an extra hit 19 times.

So its closer to 1/5 tp cycles will require an extra hit, and 1/10 total cycles will benefit from zanshin.

If my maths off sue me, i tried ;-p

*Edited, Apr 11th 2011 5:25pm by dustinfoley *

81% chance 4 hits will land in a row

77% chance 5 hits will land in a row

73% chance 6 hits will land in a row

Since each cycle to 100 tp is independant of the previous, in 100 rounds to 100tp, a 4 hit build will require an extra hit 19 times.

So its closer to 1/5 tp cycles will require an extra hit, and 1/10 total cycles will benefit from zanshin.

If my maths off sue me, i tried ;-p

Sage

798 posts

OK, so hit rate of 95%, and a Zanshin proc rate of 45%: Probability of a Zanshin swing connecting is thus 0.05 * 0.45 * 0.95 = 0.021375 (Probability of Miss * Probability of Zanshin Proc * Probability of Zanshin Hit Landing)

Assuming a 5-hit build, you can either start a build to 100TP with 20TP (WS Hit) or 0TP (WS Miss). Zanshin doesn't proc on a WS miss. Also, if you are on 80TP, an Ikishoten enhanced Zanshin swing won't get you to 100TP any faster than a regular Zanshin hit, so I am going to exclude these cases.

Possibilities (Note: Z=Ikishoten enhanced Zanshin swing):

WS Hit-Z-Hit-Hit = 0.95*0.021375*0.95^2 = 0.018326

Note that there are 3 possible ways to have the scenario of WS Hit, a Zanshin proc, and 2 other Hits, so multiply probability by 3 to give 0.054979.

WS Miss-Z-Hit-Hit-Hit= 0.05*0.021375*0.95^3 = 0.000916

Note that there are 4 possible ways to have the scenario of WS Miss, a Zanshin proc, and 3 other hits, so multiply probability by 4 to give 0.003665.

Add the two together and you get 0.054979 + 0.003665 = 0.058644 which is about 6%. I don't bother with all the other situations where a Zanshin could occur (like WS Hit-Z-Miss-Hit-Hit) because their probability is rather low and I'm just doing a quick estimate. Now remember all that neglects double attack and triple attack. Zanshin can't proc on those, so any double or triple attack would reduce that frequency. So, that is how I got that number. Feel free to pick it apart.

Edit: If you are curious, adding 5 Zanshin merits to bring you to 50% Zanshin activation rate would bring the 0.058644 up to 0.065161, or about 6.5%.

Edit 2: Dustin, rereading what you wrote, the difference between our numbers comes from the fact that you need to consider the WS as part of the hit build. It can hit or miss, but Zanshin cannot proc on those misses. Also, you need to consider that a Zanshin swing can miss. Your numbers seem to be also talking about something slightly different than mine. You are talking about benefiting from Zanshin in general, while I am talking about the odds that having Ikishoten merits will reduce your time to 100TP. The only difference between the two is you have to ignore a Zanshin swing landing if you are sitting on 80TP since the time to 100+TP is the same whether you have Ikishoten merited or not.

*Edited, Apr 12th 2011 3:33pm by JaxReborn *

Assuming a 5-hit build, you can either start a build to 100TP with 20TP (WS Hit) or 0TP (WS Miss). Zanshin doesn't proc on a WS miss. Also, if you are on 80TP, an Ikishoten enhanced Zanshin swing won't get you to 100TP any faster than a regular Zanshin hit, so I am going to exclude these cases.

Possibilities (Note: Z=Ikishoten enhanced Zanshin swing):

WS Hit-Z-Hit-Hit = 0.95*0.021375*0.95^2 = 0.018326

Note that there are 3 possible ways to have the scenario of WS Hit, a Zanshin proc, and 2 other Hits, so multiply probability by 3 to give 0.054979.

WS Miss-Z-Hit-Hit-Hit= 0.05*0.021375*0.95^3 = 0.000916

Note that there are 4 possible ways to have the scenario of WS Miss, a Zanshin proc, and 3 other hits, so multiply probability by 4 to give 0.003665.

Add the two together and you get 0.054979 + 0.003665 = 0.058644 which is about 6%. I don't bother with all the other situations where a Zanshin could occur (like WS Hit-Z-Miss-Hit-Hit) because their probability is rather low and I'm just doing a quick estimate. Now remember all that neglects double attack and triple attack. Zanshin can't proc on those, so any double or triple attack would reduce that frequency. So, that is how I got that number. Feel free to pick it apart.

Edit: If you are curious, adding 5 Zanshin merits to bring you to 50% Zanshin activation rate would bring the 0.058644 up to 0.065161, or about 6.5%.

Edit 2: Dustin, rereading what you wrote, the difference between our numbers comes from the fact that you need to consider the WS as part of the hit build. It can hit or miss, but Zanshin cannot proc on those misses. Also, you need to consider that a Zanshin swing can miss. Your numbers seem to be also talking about something slightly different than mine. You are talking about benefiting from Zanshin in general, while I am talking about the odds that having Ikishoten merits will reduce your time to 100TP. The only difference between the two is you have to ignore a Zanshin swing landing if you are sitting on 80TP since the time to 100+TP is the same whether you have Ikishoten merited or not.

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