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#1 Feb 18 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, two nights ago, I brought my SAM/NIN to Sky for the very first time. (Yes, /NIN--didn't know what the LS was going to do by the time I get there, so I went as /NIN since I'm most comfortable with /NIN. Likely will use /THF next time.)

Ended up doing one round of Suzaku, and I ... sucked.

In my defense, I've never brought any DD job to Sky before, but I've no excuse for doing a bad job twice in a row, right?

So, help me out: I had a miserable ~45% hit rate, with WS's averaging in the low 200's. (Or was it low 300's? Have to check the parser again. Unimpressive, either way.) While I did more WS damage than anyone else, the top RNGs and BLMs blew me away in total damage.

8 merits in Great Katana
5 Overwhelm
5 Meditate
0 STR merit (and not planning on any)
Mithra (if that makes a difference)

Sole Sushi

TP:
Hagun
Rose Strap
Lightning Bow
Askar Zucchetto
Peacock Charm
Brutal Earring
Fowling Earring
Haubergeon
Dusk Gloves
Ecphoria Ring
Blood Ring
Amemet Mantle +1
Swift Belt
Myochin Haidate +1
Fuma Kyahan

WS:
Snow/Shadow Gorget
Brutal Earring
Triumph Earring +1
Hachiman Domaru
Alkyoneus's Bracelets
Triumph Ring
Triumph Ring
Smilodon Mantle +1
Warwolf Belt
Rutter Sabatons

Wasn't getting buffs (beyond Protect/Shell 4--which I lost after KO and RR up), but don't think the RNGs were getting any buffs, either.

I think I can increase the accuracy a bit; Optical Hat, Potent Belt (or dig out my Life Belt). That probably wouldn't get me much past 55% hit rate, though. Don't really have a lot of gil to spend, either. (No thanks to the Triumph Rings--which are keepers since they're needed for PLD's fire resist set.)

What are good options for additional accuracy? Good performance/gil or performance/effort items wanted. (Already assuming I'd only get laugh at if I equip my Hacchonenbutsu. lol.) x_x Oh, I think I've a "WS +5 hits" to 100TP setup, which I'd like to keep if possible.

As for WS, I'm stumped; not sure how to add more STR in any reasonable manner. I assume Snow/Shadow Gorgets are better than Chivalrous Chain? If not, can switch that back in, I suppose. Can also do the add-on for the helmet, or put that Dryadic Abjuration: Head to use for a measly one more STR.








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Itazura of Ifrit
#2 Feb 18 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Dude your gear is fine... you just need buffs and a different sub-job (which you already knew). And use pizza if you weren't.
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#3 Feb 18 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Lothiriel wrote:
And use pizza if you weren't.


Why? ._. That 45% hit rate with Sole Sushi was already horrible enough, I don't think I want to lower it with a Marinara Pizza...
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#4 Feb 18 2010 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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Suzy also has an annoying EVA up buff, (feather barrier maybe, I don't recall exact name) which if not promptly debuffed WILL hurt your damage big time.

In fact, Suzy and Seriyu (Wind Wall) both can buff their EVA to nasty levels. Byakko already has nasty EVA without extra help. Without madrigal or hunter's roll, your Acc is just plain going to suck while those buffs are up. And depending on the number of dispellers you have, the buff may be up for longer than you like.

Lastly, don't forget the good ole level correction factor.

Quote:
While I did more WS damage than anyone else, the top RNGs and BLMs blew me away in total damage.
When DDs aren't getting any buffs, this is going to happen. Add a buffer or two to the melee party, then they will start to shine.
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RNG:75 MNK:75 WHM:75 BRD:75 BST:75 SAM:75 WAR:75 THF:75 BLM:75
DRG:72 SMN:63 DRK:55 NIN:49 PLD:42 RDM:41 DNC:37 SCH:37 BLU:37 COR:20 PUP:22
Woodworking:88 Cooking:60 Alchemy:60 Bone:60 Leather:60 Cloth:60 Smithing:60 Gold:54 Fishing:33
#5 Feb 18 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
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My bad, I didn't see the sushi bit, I assumed you used meat and forgot to mention it in the post.
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Lothiriel on Midgardsormr
90RNG/90NIN/75DRK/90BLM/90SAM/75DNC
Bonecraft 103 (like anyone cares anymore)
#6 Feb 18 2010 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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So, RNGs are supposed to beat my SAM unless I get accuracy buffs? *grumble* ... Well, they pay for their damage with every shot, so I guess they've earned the right to be top DDs.

Time to add Hachiryu hands to my lot list. heh.
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#7 Feb 18 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
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IfritnoItazura wrote:
So, RNGs are supposed to beat my SAM unless I get accuracy buffs? *grumble* ...
They do get +48 acc on you /NIN and an additional +acc JA. /THF should help your WS dmg considerably though; Sub almost all your haste for acc if your hit rate is that abysmal and you're not getting other +haste buffs; yell at your mages to buff/debuff more; and finally amir boots are a relatively easy piece to pick up for some additional acc/atk.



also: no rajas?
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#8 Feb 18 2010 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
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Well, not neccessarily Acc buffs. You had mentioned you had NO buffs at all. Absence of Haste and Marches is huge for a melee, especially when closing the gap and surpassing a RNGs damage. Obviously in a 0% Haste environment, the RNGs have relatively more power, since haste does nothing for ranged attack speed. However, once haste starts getting stacked on the DDs, RNGs become relatively weaker to other jobs where haste improves their performance.

The best situation of course is having a couple BRDs rotate through, BRD + COR, or something along those lines.
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RNG:75 MNK:75 WHM:75 BRD:75 BST:75 SAM:75 WAR:75 THF:75 BLM:75
DRG:72 SMN:63 DRK:55 NIN:49 PLD:42 RDM:41 DNC:37 SCH:37 BLU:37 COR:20 PUP:22
Woodworking:88 Cooking:60 Alchemy:60 Bone:60 Leather:60 Cloth:60 Smithing:60 Gold:54 Fishing:33
#9 Feb 18 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
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shintasama wrote:
They do get +48 acc on you /NIN and an additional +acc JA. /THF should help your WS dmg considerably though;

Guess so. Never realized how weak SAM is compared to RNG in sky; they seem to do just fine without buffs.


shintasama wrote:
Sub almost all your haste for acc if your hit rate is that abysmal and you're not getting other +haste buffs; yell at your mages to buff/debuff more; and finally amir boots are a relatively easy piece to pick up for some additional acc/atk.


I have Amir boots, actually; totally forgot it's sitting in the locker.


shintasama wrote:
also: no rajas?

Sattva, and not changing. Heh.
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#10 Feb 18 2010 at 8:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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IfritnoItazura wrote:
shintasama wrote:
They do get +48 acc on you /NIN and an additional +acc JA. /THF should help your WS dmg considerably though;

Guess so. Never realized how weak SAM is compared to RNG in sky; they seem to do just fine without buffs.
They don't increase as much from buffs either though, a properly geared/buffed SAM/THF should beat the snot out of them.
IfritnoItazura wrote:
shintasama wrote:
also: no rajas?

Sattva, and not changing. Heh.
Rajas is better for PLD too >_>;
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Winston Churchill wrote:
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#11 Feb 18 2010 at 10:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Don't forget the piercing damage bonus on Suzy. That certainly helps RNGs. Wiki says its also strong to slashing (on the Roc family page), which I didn't know.
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#12 Feb 19 2010 at 12:32 AM Rating: Decent
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You should be blowing away any but the non-stupid rng on a god, and even then it should be very close.

Hit rate sucks on gods regardless, and as such I always go with Sushi (+1), with /thf. I probably would do more damage with /drg or /war, but it's one of those situations where I don't want to take hate for a second and as such I always just go /thf to make my life easier. My avg hit rate hovers in the 60s-70s, with avg ws around 520 alternating between SA and TA (can usually do both w/o going over 117%tp).

Total dmg wise, no BLM should be coming close to you. Being as aggresive as I can be, I usually do about 4x the dmg the blm do, with them trying to be aggresive. This is of course all relative, since your blm are different from mine, as my sam is different from yours, but it should at least give you an idea as to the amount of damage you should be doing at a god.
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#13 Feb 19 2010 at 4:33 AM Rating: Good
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As mush as we typically say att does nothing for YGK, this is the perfect example where att would help. You should be using Gekko for gods over Y or K, as it gets the biggest att bonus (or largest ingnore defence%), and even if you had capped pDIF, you wouldn't see uber gekko numbers because of level correlation, but even from a level 90 Suzaku, with the right amount of att/STR you should be able to raise your Gekko's into the 500's w/o a Sneak Attack or a Double attack.

From the gear you listed (w/o buffs), I'd make these changes:

Hauby > haciman Domaru
Foragers > Smildon+1

Nets you an additional 50? att for your God Gekko's at the loss of 5STR.

Its your call.


Edited, Feb 19th 2010 5:34am by Sandmasterr
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#14 Feb 19 2010 at 8:19 AM Rating: Good
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I fight the Shinra Gods weekly as SAM/THF and I can say that if your accuracy is 45% then your RDM (or BRD) is not doing their jobs. Suzy and Seiryu have a godly evasion buff they can do, when they do this everyone's accuracy takes an enourmous hit. Your debuffers need to remove it ASAP or physical damage output will grind to a halt.

Sky is one of the ~very~ few times /THF makes sense. Split SA and TA into different WS's. Once with SA Gekko, then again with TA Gekko. The TA WS will get the overwhelm bonus which will help stick more hate onto the tanks. Also if you have TP then don't wait for SA or TA timers (unless one is 5s away) just WS freely from the front of the God.
I have..

TP:
Hagun
Pole Grip
Lightning Bow (will replace with Elvann RSE sachet once I stop being lazy)
W.Turban
Peacock Charm
Brutal Earring
Fowling Earring
Haubergeon +1
Dusk Gloves (can be hachi hands if I am fighting kitty for sushi)
Toreadors
Rajas
Amemet Mantle +1
Swift Belt
Kitty Pants
Fuma Kyahan

Food: Carbonara (allows 6-hit, gives attack, and makes me live longer)

Without BRD buffs I out damage every other DD and stealing hate every now and then. The ~trick~ is to play aggressivley and always look for ways to eek out the maximum damage output possible. You horrid accuracy was a result of poor use of dispel not your gear.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#15 Feb 19 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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Cyth wrote:
Suzy also has an annoying EVA up buff, (feather barrier maybe, I don't recall exact name) which if not promptly debuffed WILL hurt your damage big time.

In fact, Suzy and Seriyu (Wind Wall) both can buff their EVA to nasty levels. Byakko already has nasty EVA without extra help. Without madrigal or hunter's roll, your Acc is just plain going to suck while those buffs are up. And depending on the number of dispellers you have, the buff may be up for longer than you like.

Lastly, don't forget the good ole level correction factor.

Quote:
While I did more WS damage than anyone else, the top RNGs and BLMs blew me away in total damage.
When DDs aren't getting any buffs, this is going to happen. Add a buffer or two to the melee party, then they will start to shine.


QFT

Suzy and Seiryu have huge EVA buffs. Kitty has pretty high EVA to start with.

Your issue is the lack of a BRD or COR on your pt, or a general lack of dispellers.
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#16 Feb 19 2010 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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One time a while ago we had a really **** RDM with us at sky. I was begging and pleading with him as a DD to get him to dispel feather barrier but he was either ignoring me or couldn't see what I was saying. Never once dispelled it the whole fight. Ended up taking longer than byakko and we actually parsed LOWER accuracy than we did on byakko as well.
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#17 Feb 21 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
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TheKhory wrote:
Your issue is the lack of a BRD or COR on your pt, or a general lack of dispellers.

Well, we had a BRD for Suzaku, but he was in BLM or tank party, while I was in the "miscellaneous" party. I had to beg for Protect/Shell; no luck with Haste. (Or cures. lol.)

Think the RDMs got tired of my repeated requests for Dispel, so the last half or the last third of the fight they were actually paying attention to Feather Barrier, I think. The Bard's Finale was resisted at least once, though... that was weird. Suzaku was the last battle of the night, so maybe people were tired and inattentive.

Anyway, the Dispel would have helped the RNGs as much as my SAM, so it wouldn't improve my relative performance compared to them. (Not to say the RDMs/BRD should have been excused from not paying attention, of course.)




Edited, Feb 21st 2010 10:05am by IfritnoItazura
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#18 Feb 21 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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JaxReborn wrote:
Don't forget the piercing damage bonus on Suzy. That certainly helps RNGs.

This is the only reason RNG can beat SAM on Suzy. Get that RNG to another Gods, I bet they got the dmg down. I know my RNG, even with full racc gear but without sushi, do have worse acc than a sub-decent SAM.
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#19 Feb 21 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
This is the only reason RNG can beat SAM on Suzy. Get that RNG to another Gods, I bet they got the dmg down. I know my RNG, even with full racc gear but without sushi, do have worse acc than a sub-decent SAM

This sounds illogic. Worst "acc" then sub-decent SAM as a RNG? How is that possible?
#20 Feb 21 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Default
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Because the formula for Racc is horrible My rng has Oodles more accuracy then my Sam and especially on gods will parse much lower acc.
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#21 Feb 22 2010 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Wish I still have my note around..
I think 1 of my friend who had 330~350 melee acc + sushi vs me with ~430~440 acc (with JT), I still have lower hit-rate than his.
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#22 Feb 22 2010 at 4:29 AM Rating: Decent
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oh i see. I've never noticed that, but I was usually using pots anyway on RNG. You used Steaks/pies?

Edited, Feb 22nd 2010 5:37am by sbrubles
#23 Feb 22 2010 at 6:04 AM Rating: Good
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Rangers get their acc ganked by the distance formula. Unlike attack small subtractions from accuracy can have a pretty significant impact on damage dealt.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#24 Feb 22 2010 at 7:15 AM Rating: Default
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oh that's what you guys are talking about, the distance penalty? heh i've never parsed, but honestly I've always thought that was just a side speculation due to the DMG adjustment to distance. Cuz eyeballing only I've never actually noticed the ACC adjustment, in fact for a while I thought it didn't exist at all.

But then, whenever I experienced any sort of R.ACC issues I quickly fixed with pots or tossing extra R.ACC gear, and since I kept my distanced fixed to the weapon (gun/xbow/bow), I guess I really wouldn't have noticed any difference...


Edited, Feb 22nd 2010 8:26am by sbrubles
#25 Feb 22 2010 at 8:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Update SE did in 2006 proved there was a accuracy penalty for ranged attacks based on distance.

Quote:
As of the April 18th 2006 Update, the distance-accuracy modifier on ranged attacks is removed while this ability is active. However, the distance-damage modifier is still in place.


From
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Sharpshot

If anyone wants further proof they can dig around SE's website for the update's and find the actual note.

Personally I think the distance penalty is complete crap, no reason to have it when ranged attacks already do not stack with haste.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#26 Feb 23 2010 at 5:35 AM Rating: Decent
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You can't hammer level difference accuracy penalty with just gear swap. Somehow I felt sushi negates a lot of that.
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#27 Feb 23 2010 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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saevellakshmi wrote:
Personally I think the distance penalty is complete crap, no reason to have it when ranged attacks already do not stack with haste.


The reason was because RNGs used to melee while shooting, adding melee damage to their ranged damage. So SE made a cut off - either you melee decently or you have a decent ranged attack.
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#28 Feb 23 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Melee while shooting won't add much. The delay on the ammo is all you get for free, the delay on the weapon still halts your melee actions. Even know a RNG can melee while in near optimal gun range (90%+), you still don't see them doing this.

You can only execute one action at a time, you can melee then shoot, or shoot then melee, but never melee while shooting.
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RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
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