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#1 Dec 10 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Default
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This is an analysis of MNK/WAR vs WAR/SAM at bird camp. To make a straight comparison, I'll only use buffs that won't go over cap on one vs. the other (making it beneficial for one and not really the other). That being said, the only buffs will be Haste,Haste Samba, March x 2 and Debuff of Dia3 + box Step (drops avg bird def to 260).

Why on SAM forum? Kinda got started thinking about about X vs. X on another thread in SAM forum where someone made a top 10 DD list.
Why now? At home sick and bored.

The race for each will be galka(cuz thats what I am) with 5/5 Str merits and gear will the best to max DD, without being relic (stuff I see regularly enough or isnt over 20mil, ie no dusk gloves+1, but dusk feet+1 at 3 mil is reasonable). Food for each will be meat mith. Final numbers will be given in damage per sec. Certain things will not be taken into account do to difficulty, time consuming in assigning numeric value to (Retailation,Counter,Warcry,Warriors Charge,critical hit % left out - Tp reaching 100% will assume WS - not really always possible with DA factor...but anyways.). Time is not accounted for WS or JA animations (as I dont know what they are).

WAR/SAM (+Hasso) - TP gear, 5/5 DA 5/5 ZERK

Perdu Voulge
Pole Strap
FireBomblet
W.Turban
Peacock Charm
Adaman Hauberk
Brutal earring
Assualt earring
Dusk Gloves
Rajas ring
Blitz ring
Foragers mantle
V.Belt
B.Hiadate
Dusk feet +1

STR 80+5(food)+5(hasso)+18(gear) = 108 (fSTR=11)
DEX 68+30(gear) = 98
Haste 23+10+11+9+15+10 = 78%
Weapon Delay 504 x 0.22 (haste) = 110.88
Acc 282+73(dex)+10(hasso)+33(gear)=398, 93.25% + 6.75%x25%x95%(zanshin)(40%)
=423, 95%+5%x25%x95%(zanshin)(aggresor60%)
Avg affective acc = 95.65%
Att 276+8+10+16+81+61 = [(452 x 1.25) + 65] =630
= (452 + 65) =517

cRatio: 630/260 -0.325 = 2.098 x 0.72(%zerk up)
517/260 -0.325 = 1.663 x 0.28(zerk down)
Avg affective cratio = 1.976
Avg damage: 1.976(96+11) = 211.45

WS round time: [110.88(delay)/ 0.9565(acc)]/1.22(chance for DA)/60(timeunit) x 6hits = 9.502 sec to WS

Melee damage per WS round 211.45 x 6 = 1268.69

King's Justice
Pedru Voulge
PoleGrip
Bomb Core
ACP head(4STR,15wsacc,2%WSdamage)
Soil Gorget
Assualt earring
Brutal earring
Adaman Hauberk
Alky. Bracelets
Rajas ring
Flame ring
Foragers
Warwolf
Ares legs
Hecatomb feet

STR 140 (fSTR =18, STR mod = 58)
DEX 91
DA 24%
Att 276+16+18+105+57 = 472 x 1.25 + 65 = 655 (cratio = 2.194)
= 472 + 65 = 537 (cratio = 1.74)
Avg cRatio = 2.067

TP mod(w/ torque + DA)Hit 1 = 1.1 + 0.24 (chance to DA)x 0.95
2 = 1 + 0.24 x .95^2
3 = 1 .95^3
Total = 3.242

Avg WS = 3.242 x 2.067 (96+18+58) x 1.02 (acp head)= 1175.65 damage

Avg damage per sec: 1175.65(ws)+1268.69(melee)/ WS round(9.502s)
= 256.75 damage/sec

MNK/WAR

Faith bags
Virtue Stone
Usu head
Faith torque
Hollow earring
Brutal earring
Usu body
Usu hands
Toreador ring
Toreador ring
Cuch mantle
Black belt
Usu legs
Usu feet

STR: 105 (fSTR=9)
DEX: 89
Haste: 25+20+10+15 = 70%
Delay: 413 x 0.3/2(each hand) = 61.95
Avg Acc (including 40% focus, math not shown here) = 91.55%
Att: 276+16+18+52+17=379 x1.25 + 65 = 538
=379 + 65 = 444
Avg cRatio = 1.600

Avg damage(one hit): 1.6(44+9) = 84.78

DA rate: (1 x 1.15 DA rate x 1.5 Faith) + 0.15KA (assuming faith cant proc)

WS round: 61.95delay/0.91559(acc)/1.875DA rate/60(timeunit)x 15 hits to WS
= 9.02s to WS

Melee damage: 84.78 x 16 = 1356.48 melee damage/round


Asuran fist EQ
Faith Bags
Black Tathlum
ACP(4str,5att,25wsacc)
Faith Torque
Hollow earring
Brutal earring
Usu body
O.Kote(20 att)
Toreador x 2
Foragers
Virtuso belt (12acc,5att)
Usu legs
Usu feet

STR 103
DEX 88
Acc 289+44+77=410
Att 276+16+18+51+66 = 427 x 1.25 +65 = 598
= 427 +65 = 492
Avg cRatio = 1.812
WS damage: Hit 1 : 1.812 (44+9+13) x (1.15) x 0.95
Hit 2 : 1.812 (44+9+13) x (1.15) x 0.95^2
Hit 3 : 1.812 (66) x 0.95^3
Hit 4 : ect ect

Final WS avg: 895.56

Damage per time: 895.56 (WS) + 1356.48(melee) / WS round 9.02
= 249.67 damage/sec


I may do more of these (DRG,DRK,ect); but just wanted to do this one first.

If I made any very large gearing error; or a small math error, or forgot about something please point it out.

EDIT(added box step-recalculated)




Edited, Dec 10th 2009 8:19pm by doctorugh
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#2 Dec 10 2009 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
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1. if you can afford dusk+1 boots you can afford heca+1 boots and hands

2. heca cap > acp helm

3. if you are going to use the acp helm, why not use it to replace wturban as str+2 haste+5?

4. fortitude torque instead of pcc

5. what weaponskill is the war using?

6. you really need to factor in crits. it can sway the numbers by quite a bit.

Quote:
Certain things will not be taken into account do to difficulty, time consuming in assigning numeric value to (Retailation,Counter,Warcry,Warriors Charge,critical hit % left out


wtf is the point of this again? which DD is best at birds with pieces of gear under 20mil, who cant crit, and who dont use half their job abilities?

if you arent going to go 100% with all calculations then you may as well just stop, as it will have no impact on which is actually "better" than the other. its like me saying "drk is the best DD cause it has the highest attack". if you dont factor in everything, then your comparison means absolutely nothing.
#3 Dec 10 2009 at 6:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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There are several mistakes on the mnk side, and at least one corresponding mistake on the war side. Also, if you're including Dnc for Haste Samba you should expect to have Box Step used for a total of -20% def on the mob. Will work out details and maybe post later.
#4 Dec 10 2009 at 6:43 PM Rating: Default
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iknoweverything wrote:
1. if you can afford dusk+1 boots you can afford heca+1 boots and hands

2. heca cap > acp helm

3. if you are going to use the acp helm, why not use it to replace wturban as str+2 haste+5?

4. fortitude torque instead of pcc

5. what weaponskill is the war using?

6. you really need to factor in crits. it can sway the numbers by quite a bit.

Quote:
Certain things will not be taken into account do to difficulty, time consuming in assigning numeric value to (Retailation,Counter,Warcry,Warriors Charge,critical hit % left out


wtf is the point of this again? which DD is best at birds with pieces of gear under 20mil, who cant crit, and who dont use half their job abilities?

if you arent going to go 100% with all calculations then you may as well just stop, as it will have no impact on which is actually "better" than the other. its like me saying "drk is the best DD cause it has the highest attack". if you dont factor in everything, then your comparison means absolutely nothing.


Replying to some of this:
1. Alky 11 STR > 8 STR of heca hands (KJ-should have mentioned)
2. The ACP helm used for WAR will be stronger than the 11 STR from hecatomb cap. 2% WS is close to 7 STR when the fSTR is already capped, not to mention you can drop acc elsewhere with the WSacc on it.

ACP 1.02x(96+18+58)= 175.44
Heca 1 x (96+18+62)= 176

3. Seems more valueable to have 15wsacc on KJ rather than +2 STR on TP
4. Fort, I'll check the math on that.
5. King's Justice
6. If I can get the exact crit % for 98 and 89 on birds I'll add it in. I'll look in a couple forums however.

You cant exactly predict counter and retaliation. Warcry affects everyone and its a tiny amount, and it depends slightly if you stack it with bezerk or not, it should be terribly insignificant as far as a comparison basis since they both have the JA; but I'd be willing to say it would help mnk 0.1% more. Leaving warcry out, since they both have the ability isnt really like leaving out DRK att bonus......that comparison is ridiculous. Since its time based I could add in Warrior charge (5 min) at 1/189 attacks or 0.53% DA, assuming you have a constant pull rate.

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wtf is the point of this again?

To find out which people complain for the sake of complaining.
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#5 Dec 10 2009 at 6:52 PM Rating: Default
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Kinematics wrote:
There are several mistakes on the mnk side, and at least one corresponding mistake on the war side. Also, if you're including Dnc for Haste Samba you should expect to have Box Step used for a total of -20% def on the mob. Will work out details and maybe post later.


I dont have monk, so I dont know it very well. Honestly I dont even know that faith bags are best for it. As far as throwing in Box step, I was trying to keep from over benefiting one job over the other. In which You could dia2+box step and come up with Dia3 (I think). Once you go in to greater att/lower defense war cant pickup anymore benefit and monk will.

Just from doing this, it seems like WAR has alot of advantage without outside buffs.(Higher haste/att/acc) Each additional buff helps out those that aren't as close to cap. I can certainly see MNK beating WAR if you add in chaos roll and box step (or seedspray if you have a blue).

Thank you for the feedback.

Edited, Dec 10th 2009 6:58pm by doctorugh
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#6 Dec 10 2009 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I dont have monk, so I dont know it very well. Honestly I dont even know that faith bags are best for it. As far as throwing in Box step, I was trying to keep from over benefiting one job over the other. In which You could dia2+box step and come up with Dia3 (I think). Once you go in to greater att/lower defense war cant pickup anymore benefit and monk will.


Don't forget that since the war is using a 2-handed weapon, his cRatio can go up to ~2.3 before capping. The war won't be capping out even with his higher attack and -20% def.
#7 Dec 10 2009 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Would work better if you compared jobs you knew how to equip properly. Not even looking at what you put down for war, your math, or your results, I can tell you now your results are far from accurate just based on the mnk in your exmaple.
#8 Dec 10 2009 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
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Ugh, M.D. wrote:
To find out which people complain for the sake of complaining.
I'm trying to care enough to complain, but I just don't.




wait, did that count?
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#9 Dec 10 2009 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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Your post is largely irrelevant. Do you know why?

First, when you make assumptions in math, it isn't "disregard these variables as making a difference, because I don't know if they will give different results."
Quote:
Certain things will not be taken into account do to difficulty, time consuming in assigning numeric value to (Retailation,Counter,Warcry,Warriors Charge,critical hit % left out - Tp reaching 100% will assume WS - not really always possible with DA factor...but anyways.). Time is not accounted for WS or JA animations (as I dont know what they are)


Secondly, use ALL the buffs you would use in the party, not just the ones that you say would benefit one and not the other. You wouldn't say, "I'm not going to throw in the haste from Black Belt, since WAR can't get it".

Third, Monks have this nifty trait called Kick Attacks. Those need to be counted, I mean you wouldn't do calcs for DRG and skip Jump.

Fourth, you are trying to compare two completely different jobs, on merit mobs made for pussies. If you're a pimped out MNK or WAR like that, you'd have the balls to go to MJSP and own the entire freaking zone. Because you don't get that kind of gear, and not have a few other well geared friends. Take those two DDs, COR, DNC, BRD and WHM/SCH or RDM, and **** some **** up.

Fifth, you are comparing two different jobs in the first freaking place. As you said in your assumptions part, you can't account for a lot. Human factor being the main one.
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RNG:75 MNK:75 WHM:75 BRD:75 BST:75 SAM:75 WAR:75 THF:75 BLM:75
DRG:72 SMN:63 DRK:55 NIN:49 PLD:42 RDM:41 DNC:37 SCH:37 BLU:37 COR:20 PUP:22
Woodworking:88 Cooking:60 Alchemy:60 Bone:60 Leather:60 Cloth:60 Smithing:60 Gold:54 Fishing:33
#10 Dec 10 2009 at 8:19 PM Rating: Default
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shintasama wrote:
Ugh, M.D. wrote:
To find out which people complain for the sake of complaining.
I'm trying to care enough to complain, but I just don't.




wait, did that count?


Nope, you're still safe.
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You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
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#11 Dec 10 2009 at 8:21 PM Rating: Default
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Cyth wrote:
If you're a pimped out MNK or WAR like that, you'd have the balls to go to MJSP and own the entire freaking zone.

Agreed with you up until this point.

Max exp at bird camp is higher than max exp on mamools. If you're owning so hard, why would you swap to the inferior camp?
#12 Dec 10 2009 at 8:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Cyth wrote:
Your post is largely irrelevant. Do you know why?

First, when you make assumptions in math, it isn't "disregard these variables as making a difference, because I don't know if they will give different results."
Quote:
Certain things will not be taken into account do to difficulty, time consuming in assigning numeric value to (Retailation,Counter,Warcry,Warriors Charge,critical hit % left out - Tp reaching 100% will assume WS - not really always possible with DA factor...but anyways.). Time is not accounted for WS or JA animations (as I dont know what they are)


I cant (nor can anyone) show how much counter or retaliation is going to add.
I'll do crit if I can find % that are viewed as moslty correct for 89 and 98 (seeing lots of variance btw posts).

Secondly, use ALL the buffs you would use in the party, not just the ones that you say would benefit one and not the other. You wouldn't say, "I'm not going to throw in the haste from Black Belt, since WAR can't get it".

Ummm, black belt is in there

Third, Monks have this nifty trait called Kick Attacks. Those need to be counted, I mean you wouldn't do calcs for DRG and skip Jump.

Umm, kick attacks is in there
Fourth, you are trying to compare two completely different jobs, on merit mobs made for pussies. If you're a pimped out MNK or WAR like that, you'd have the balls to go to MJSP and own the entire freaking zone. Because you don't get that kind of gear, and not have a few other well geared friends. Take those two DDs, COR, DNC, BRD and WHM/SCH or RDM, and @#%^ some sh*t up.

Right.....you do the math and variablity on all those mobs, I double dare you to be mildly accurate

Fifth, you are comparing two different jobs in the first freaking place. As you said in your assumptions part, you can't account for a lot. Human factor being the main one.


You play MNK I'm guessing.......

Edited, Dec 10th 2009 8:30pm by doctorugh
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#13 Dec 10 2009 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
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I don't even see the point to this thread tbh. Your math is 100% irrelevant since it is so far off.
#14 Dec 10 2009 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Because I like foooood!

Edit: As well as a camp that isn't overcamped most of the time like Birds.

Edit conti: I play MNK and WAR both, or are you ******* blind?

Edited, Dec 10th 2009 7:10pm by Cyth
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RNG:75 MNK:75 WHM:75 BRD:75 BST:75 SAM:75 WAR:75 THF:75 BLM:75
DRG:72 SMN:63 DRK:55 NIN:49 PLD:42 RDM:41 DNC:37 SCH:37 BLU:37 COR:20 PUP:22
Woodworking:88 Cooking:60 Alchemy:60 Bone:60 Leather:60 Cloth:60 Smithing:60 Gold:54 Fishing:33
#15 Dec 10 2009 at 11:32 PM Rating: Default
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Veggeto wrote:
I don't even see the point to this thread tbh. Your math is 100% irrelevant since it is so far off.


Care to elaborate?
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You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


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#16 Dec 10 2009 at 11:32 PM Rating: Default
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lag post

Edited, Dec 10th 2009 11:36pm by doctorugh
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#17 Dec 11 2009 at 12:35 AM Rating: Good
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if nothing else, add crit hit % and a focus up macro. looking at melee damage per WS round should reveal why crit % matters. focus up macro matters for more obvious reasons.
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#18 Dec 11 2009 at 4:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lots of math. Errors corrected, but not all of them explicitly noted as such. See bottom for summary stuff.

Mnk

Str 105, dStr = 38, fStr = 9 (caps at 99 str for Faiths)
Also, str should be 110 due to food.

70% haste = 700/1024

Delay (2 hands) = 413 * 324/1024 = 130.68 per round, rounding up to 131 delay (must keep this delay to account for kicks vs DA properly)

Total Accuracy: 391 (421 w/Focus)
With Focus: 95%/95% ~= 95% avg
Without Focus: 91.5%/87% ~= 89.25%

Can drop 14 acc during focus. Unfortunately extra str is useless since we're well past the fStr cap, and can't change out Usu gear without killing the set bonus, requiring a complete rework. So: Change Cuchulain to Forager's (-7 acc). Change Toreador to Ulthalam's (-3 acc). Change Hollow to Merman's (-4 acc). Gain 24 att.


From OP:
Att: 276+16+18+52+17=379 x1.25 + 65 = 538

276 base skill
16 merits
18 ?
55 from half str
17 from usu gear
missing 10 from trait
missing 7 from torque

total: 381 (405 during Focus)

Haven't personally verified whether food is stacked before or after Berserk (or if I did it was so long ago that I can't properly remember). I thought it was before, but I could be wrong. Will use your value of after.

Att from kabobs will be 60 (str already added earlier).

Total: 465 without Berserk, 536 with Berserk.

Using -20% def:
Def: 258/262

cRatios:
Berserk: 1.7775 / 1.6958 ~= 1.7367 avg
no Berserk: 1.5023 / 1.4248 ~= 1.4636 avg

Damage needs to be processed in 5 minute cycles for Berserk + Focus.


Asuran Fists:

(Berserk):

* Switching from Usukane Somen to MKE head is enough to cap accuracy in all cases, even without Focus. Net +2 acc over cap; net +1 str, net +5 att.
* Black Tathlum: Odd dex means +1 dex gives you another +1 acc. Net +7 acc, +9 att.
* Should be swapping to Bando Kote for 22 att, rather than the 20 of O.Kote. Losing 10 acc there. Net -3 acc, +31 att.
* Virtuoso Belt for 12 acc/4 att (not 5). Net +9 acc, +35 att, -6 str. Not the best trade, but we can make use of the spare accuracy with:
* Cuchulain's Mantle changed to Forager's: Net +2 acc, +50 att, -7 str.
* Swap Brutal for a Merman's Earring since Asuran can't DA. +2 acc, +56 att, -7 str. [@103 str; 99 str caps Faiths]

Difference in Str doesn't matter, since neither fStr nor WSC will change, though there will be a slight loss of att (-4).

Extra accuracy isn't needed, and extra .1 FTP on Asuran is pretty much no net gain over 7 att from torque, so not swapping neck pieces.

Slightly different during Focus: Already using Forager's, so no gain from that. The rest can remain the same. Gain of +37 att.


Weaponskill Attack: 502 without Berserk, 601 with Berserk.
Attack needed to cap cRatio: 594/616 (lvl 81/82)

Only use Boost when Berserk is down.

Net attack for weaponskill: 584/601

Using -20% def:
Def: 258/262

cRatios:
Berserk: 2.0 / 1.9439 ~= 1.9719 avg
no Berserk: 1.9636 / 1.8790 ~= 1.9213 avg

14 WSC

Base damage: 44 + 9 + 14 = 67

Average number of hits: 7.6

Average damage:
Berserk: 1004
no Berserk: 978


TP per hit: 56 * 1.08 = 6.0 (5.9 on weaponskills)

Minimum of 14 hits needed between weaponskills.

Hits per round: 2 * 1.5 * 1.05 = 3.15 + .15 for capped KA = 3.3.

Rounds needed per WS: 4.25
Overhead hits: 2.3 * 0.5 + 3.3 * 0.5 = 2.8 hits = .85 round

Rounds between each weaponskill: 5.1 (before accuracy is considered)
Hits: 16.1
Kicks: 0.77

Accuracy: 95% (Focus) / 89.25% (no Focus)

Rounds w/Focus: 5.37
Rounds wo/Focus: 5.71

Time per WS cycle w/Focus: 131 * 5.37 = 704
Time per WS cycle wo/Focus: 131 * 5.71 = 748

Add 60 delay for WS and 60 delay for Boost (during Focus phase only)

Total Time per WS w/Focus: 824
Total Time per WS wo/Focus: 808

Damage per hit during Focus (no Berserk): 77.57
Damage per kick during Focus (no Berserk): 64.40
Damage per hit during Berserk (no Focus): 92.05
Damage per kick during Berserk (no Focus): 76.41


Damage per WS cycle w/Focus: 16.1 * 77.57 + .77 * 64.40 + 978 = 2,276.5
Damage per WS cycle w/Berserk: 16.1 * 92.05 + .77 * 76.41 + 1004 = 2,544.8

Crit rate: 11% w/Focus, 12% w/Berserk (Cuch mantle pushes you over a crit tier).

Adjusted damage per WS cycle:
Focus: 1,298.47 * .89 + 1,298.47 * .11 * (2.4636 / 1.4636) + 978 = 2,374.1
Berserk: 1,540.84 * .88 + 1,540.84 * .12 * (2.7367 / 1.7367) + 1004 = 2,651.3

WS cycles per Focus: 7200 delay / 824 = 8.74
WS cycles per Berserk: 10,800 delay / 808 = 13.37

Total damage (offensive) per 5 minute cycle: 8.74 * 2,374.1 + 13.37 * 2,651.3 = 56,197.5

DPS: 55,843.84 / 300 = 187.3


War

Haste: 78% = 780/1024
Delay: 504 * 244/1024 = 120.1, round up to 121 (actually think it might round down, but I used round up for mnk, so staying consistant here).

Excess hits per WS: .22 + 1.22 * 0.5 = 0.83

Fake 6-hit build (+21 Store TP, need +22 for true 6-hit)

Hits per WS: 5.83

Hits per round: 1.22

Rounds per WS: 4.78

Average accuracy (corrected for DA): 95.35%

Adjust # rounds for acc: 4.78 / .9535 = 5.01

Time per WS cycle: 5.01 * 121 + 60 = 666

Attack (taking what was given): 517 / 630

Using -20% def:
Def: 258/262

cRatio wo/Berserk: 1.7039 / 1.6233 ~= 1.6636 avg
cRatio w/Berserk: 2.1419 / 2.0546 ~= 2.0983 avg

Base damage: 96 + 11 = 107
{Don't feel like calculating how much damage is lost from going over 100 TP}

Avg damage wo/Berserk: 178
Avg damage w/Berserk: 224.5

Crit rate: 13%

Damage adjusted for crit rate:
no Berserk: 178 * .87 + 178 * .13 * (2.6636 / 1.6636) = 191.91
Berserk: 224.5 * .87 + 224.5 * .13 * (3 / 2.0983) = 237.04


% time w/Berserk: 180/250 = 72%
Avg damage per hit: 224.4

Using provided weaponskill damage number:
Damage done: 5.61 * 224.4 + 1175.65 = 2,434.5

DPS: 2,434.5 / (666/60) = 219.3


Summary 1:
Mnk DPS: 187.3
War DPS: 219.3

War is moving 33% faster (due to higher haste with Hasso), and doing 17% more damage.


Secondary factors

Next, Counters/Retaliations. This will more heavily favor War.

Damage split is roughly 54/46 right now. Assume for the sake of simplicity that mobs will attack each character with that same frequency distribution.

Over a 5 minute cycle (and given that we're assuming a continuous stream of mobs), a maximum of 75 attacks can occur (4 second delay for mobs). Approximately 1/3 of all attacks will be supplanted by reflecting Dia III or using a TP move. That leaves 50 melee attacks. Given a max 95% hit rate, that's 47.5 hits.

Distribute them between the war and the mnk as: 25.65 on war, 21.85 on mnk.

War can retaliate an estimated 50% of the time, modified by accuracy to 47% of the time given the above accuracy rates (Zanshin not allowed). That means 12.0555 retailiations, with accompanying TP. Given hit requirements, that's essentially 2 additional WS cycles.

WS cycles per 300 seconds (base): 27.027
Increase to 29.027

Total damage: 70,666
DPS: 235.6

And while we're at it, add in Meditate. Due to rounding, Meditate is essentially 1/2 a weaponskill every 3 minutes. Over 5 minutes, that's an extra 0.833 weaponskills.

Damage: 70,666 + 1175.65 * 0.83 = 71,645.7
DPS: 238.8


The mnk has a counter rate with Counterstance of approximately 60%, modified by accuracy. Average accuracy over 5 minutes is 91.55%. Number of counters would then be 21.85 * 60% * 91.55% = 12.0022.

Avg cRatio: 1.62746
Damage per counter: 86.255 >> (correct for crits; this assumes that there is no crit rate bonus on counters) 92.61

Damage: 92.61 * 12 = 1111.4

Total damage: 55,843.84 + 1111.4
DPS: 189.5


Summary 2:

War is now doing 26% more damage. Given the 33% attack speed difference, and the fact that the war build isn't as heavily optimised as the mnk build, we can pretty much say that the haste from Hasso is more or less the entirety of the advantage that war has.



#19 Dec 11 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Default
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Lots of good stuff that I didnt know, and a few questions.

1. Asuran can't DA (interesting, as there other melee WS like this?)

2. Haste run on x/1024; does that mean the true cap is 800/1024 or 824/1024 or something different from that. So does 1% haste have a value of 10 or is it fractionally based also.

3. When rounding delay, does it always round up reguardless of #?

4. Is the -20% defense fractional in working the numbers also, or is it a small enough fraction that it doesnt matter?

5.
Quote:
Average number of hits: 7.6
- how is this determined? (refrering to asuran fists)

6.
Quote:
TP per hit: 56 * 1.08 = 6.0 (5.9 on weaponskills)
Usu body, usu feet and brutal = 14 store tp (6.3?)

7.
Quote:
Add 60 delay for WS and 60 delay for Boost (during Focus phase only)
This is very important to know. Is it 60 delay for all WS and JA? And at this high haste, is boost worth the loss of damage?


Thank you for the corrections and post, very helpful. I may try DRG with this new info (little easier without timed buffs), if you would check it to see if I understand everything.
Also could you give me a table or link to the DEX to crit% on birds.

Quote:
276 base skill
16 merits
18 ? <------------------ 10 from trait + 8 base attack(always starts with 8)
55 from half str
17 from usu gear
missing 10 from trait
missing 7 from torque




Edited, Dec 11th 2009 12:53pm by doctorugh
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#20 Dec 11 2009 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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1. Asuran can't DA (interesting, as there other melee WS like this?)
Max number of attempted rounds is 8 (for WS or melee, hit or miss); since no other WS hits 8 times, no. The only other place that comes to mind where is matters is if you have DW KC + off hand <anything else>, if you get 8x KC hits your offhand won't even swing (not that you should be ever DW KC, or mainhand it if you do).
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So does 1% haste have a value of 10 or is it fractionally based also.
Varies by gear.
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I may try DRG with this new info
Seeing how you're doing this on the SAM forum, can I request Amano SAM?

Edited, Dec 11th 2009 7:02pm by shintasama
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#21 Dec 11 2009 at 6:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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doctorugh wrote:
Haste run on x/1024; does that mean the true cap is 800/1024 or 824/1024 or something different from that.


That I can't tell you. However all testing that I've seen or done indicates a flat 10x haste% except for, I believe, Homam Cosciales. However the really comprehensive haste tests were done prior to one of BG's database scrubs/reorganizations, so I don't know if the thread is even still available.

doctorugh wrote:
3. When rounding delay, does it always round up reguardless of #?


The rounding down bit was the result of what I worked through on recast times, however I'm not entirely sure it was conclusive. I always assume that it rounds in the game's favor rather than the player's unless shown otherwise, so I generally stick with rounding fractional delays up.

doctorugh wrote:
4. Is the -20% defense fractional in working the numbers also, or is it a small enough fraction that it doesnt matter?


The reduced defense has to be an integer. I again assume it rounds against the player's favor. This could have been testable during the time combat was broken after the 2-handed patch, but I don't believe anyone did so. It's impractical to verify with the current combat system (though ranged or magic damage may be able to get something to work with).

doctorugh wrote:
Quote:
Average number of hits: 7.6
how is this determined? (refrering to asuran fists)


Since you're geared for capped accuracy, all hits have the same 95% chance to land. Therefore on average 95% of them -will- land, and 95% of 8 swings is 7.6. Further, since fTP of Asuran is 1.0 and we're not using a gorget, and since WSC applies to all hits, all hits contribute an equal amount of damage (ie: don't need to calculate the first hit separately) and getting average damage is a simple multiplication.

doctorugh wrote:
Usu body, usu feet and brutal = 14 store tp (6.3?)


Whoops, forgot about the Store TP on the body. Should be 6.3 per hit for both TP and weaponskill. That means you need exactly 13 hits to get 100 TP after a 7-hit asuran (assuming both of the first two hits landed).

4.8 rounds after including overflow, 5.05 at 95%, 5.38 at 89.25%.

Time per WS cycle w/Focus: 131 * 5.05 = 662
Time per WS cycle wo/Focus: 131 * 5.38 = 705

Add delays:
Focus: 782
Bersrek: 765

WS cycles per Focus: 7200 delay / 782 = 9.21
WS cycles per Berserk: 10,800 delay / 765 = 14.12

Total damage (offensive) per 5 minute cycle: 9.21 * 2,374.1 + 14.12 * 2,651.3 = 59,301.8

DPS: 55,843.84 / 300 = 197.7

Plus Counter damage: 59,301.8 + 1111.4
DPS: 201.4

vs the War's 238.8 puts the war 19% ahead.

doctorugh wrote:
This is very important to know. Is it 60 delay for all WS and JA? And at this high haste, is boost worth the loss of damage?


60 delay is an estimate. I don't believe it's been fully verified, but there were tests planned. Yes, most WS and JA are considered to have that same delay regardless of animation time (jumps might be different).

Using boost increases attack from 502 to 584, which increases cRatio from 1.6059 to 1.9213. Weaponskill damage with Boost was calculated as 978. Without Boost it would be 818.

Total damage per Focus weaponskill cycle was 2,374.1. Unboosted it would be 2,214.1.

Cycle time with Boost would be 782, 722 without. DPS would be 182.2 with Boost, 184 without. So no, it's not worth using Boost now. I believe it worked out in favor of Boost (or at least neutral) before the adjustment to the cycle delay due to the corrected Store TP. Even using it now, the drop in total DPS is pretty minimal.

Fully corrected DPS would then be:

9.97 Focus weaponskill cycles at 2,214.1 plus Berserk damage plus Counter damage =
9.97 * 2,214.1 + 14.12 * 2,651.3 + 1111.4 = 60,622.3

DPS: 202.1

vs the War's 238.8 puts the war 18% ahead.

doctorugh wrote:
Also could you give me a table or link to the DEX to crit% on birds.


Here's the testing thread (not specific to birds): http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68786

And there's a nice pretty graph with the summary results here: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Talk:Critical_Hit_Rate


doctorugh wrote:
10 from trait + 8 base attack(always starts with 8)


... I can't believe it, but I think I actually forgot to include the 8 base attack in the total. Bah. Well, it should increase DPS by ~2%. Not going to refigure all of it right now, though.


#22 Dec 12 2009 at 3:13 PM Rating: Default
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Seeing how you're doing this on the SAM forum, can I request Amano SAM?

I dont know much about optimal SAM or exactly what the att/acc bonus is on your WS. If you gave me the WS equation and TP/WS gear I could.
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