Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

STP/Rose Strap QuestionFollow

#1 Nov 05 2009 at 7:35 AM Rating: Decent
*
140 posts
Yes, this is another Rose Strap question. I would have posted in the other topic but it's so horribly derailed.

I'm currently using Hachiman Kote +1 in my TP set to get the 6 hit. I picked up a Rose Strap and I was wondering if I should use that instead of the Hachiman Kote +1? I'm 1 TP short on my 6 hit, but I have a 5 hit after I WS. Should I just keep the strap and sell the kotes? I know the Ecphoria Ring will get me the extra +1 STP, but will that be a wise decision to swap in for my Iota Ring?
____________________________
FIREDEMON: DRK75 WAR75 THF75 PLD75 SAM75 RNG75
Merits @ 557
DRK75 Insurgency: O
[TP] http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?181562
[WS] http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?95554
WAR75 King's Justice: O
[TP] http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?177773
[WS] http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?168010
Leader of ChaosReigns
Smithing: 100+3
Leather, Cloth, Wood, Alchemy, Bone, Gold, Cooking: 60
#2 Nov 05 2009 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
Quote:
I know the Ecphoria Ring will get me the extra +1 STP, but will that be a wise decision to swap in for my Iota Ring?
yes, alternatively you could WS in more sTP or use white tathlum, but ecphoria ring is probably your best option (I'm assuming you're using brutal for the other sTP?)
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#3 Nov 05 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
***
2,620 posts
I'd definitely swap Iota for Ecphoria, loss of 1 ACC so you keep your 6-HIT after missed WS@s (5%) of the time probably does more for you, then again, after DA proc ws's (with first hit miss) or if Zanshin procs (if zanshin can proc on ws) you'll be able to get your 100% 6HITS after WS.

If you were using a Sniper+1 or Torreador's ring, I'd find a way of fitting more STP in else where. Hachiman feet is a good option, you only sacrfice 1STR of Marine M or rutter's.
____________________________
Taking a break.
#4 Nov 05 2009 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,567 posts
Sandmasterr wrote:
I'd definitely swap Iota for Ecphoria, loss of 1 ACC so you keep your 6-HIT after missed WS@s (5%) of the time probably does more for you, then again, after DA proc ws's (with first hit miss) or if Zanshin procs (if zanshin can proc on ws) you'll be able to get your 100% 6HITS after WS.

If you were using a Sniper+1 or Torreador's ring, I'd find a way of fitting more STP in else where. Hachiman feet is a good option, you only sacrfice 1STR of Marine M or rutter's.
Should be able to do with AF legs +1 or Enkidu leggings as well. Since you don't need the acc, if you have shura legs for ws and have the option of af+1 legs too, you should choose the af+1 legs if you need the stp.
____________________________
Chatokun 90DRG | 75RDM | 82BRD | 90THF | 90NIN | 75SAM | 90BLU
Valefor Server
Linkshell: Heresy
#5 Nov 05 2009 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
*
140 posts
Ok, maybe I'll swap in Ecphoria then. My current SAM gear is as follows in case it might change anything....this was before the Rose Strap change.

[TP]

Hagun | Pole Grip | Lightning Bow +1
Askar | PCC | Brutal | Fowling
Hauby +1 | Hachiman +1 | Rajas | Iota
Forager's | Swift | Haidate | Sarutobi

[WS]

Hagun | Pole Grip | Lightning Bow +1
Shura | Snow Gorget | Brutal | Fowling
Hachiman | Alkyoneus' | Rajas | Flame
Forager's | Warwolf | AF+1 | Askar

I know, lol @ the Hachiman Domaruuuuuu, but I'm not a SAM main, I only use it for a few things, so I never bothered getting an Osode. My WS set gives me 17 TP return on it, so I only needed 5 more hits to get 100 TP assuming I didn't miss at all. Would this make a difference in choosing the Ecphoria at all?

Edited, Nov 5th 2009 3:35pm by BleedTheSky
____________________________
FIREDEMON: DRK75 WAR75 THF75 PLD75 SAM75 RNG75
Merits @ 557
DRK75 Insurgency: O
[TP] http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?181562
[WS] http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?95554
WAR75 King's Justice: O
[TP] http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?177773
[WS] http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?168010
Leader of ChaosReigns
Smithing: 100+3
Leather, Cloth, Wood, Alchemy, Bone, Gold, Cooking: 60
#6 Nov 05 2009 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
*
232 posts
Hachiman is a perfectly fine WS body
____________________________
Wise/Funny quotes go here
#7 Nov 05 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
you get 16.6 TP/hit if you switch rose with pole and put on dusk gloves. 16.6 * 5 = 83, meaning you need exactly 17 TP from your WS.

since you can't take rose strap off for WS, that's 4 sTP as a given. brutal and rajas are also WS staples above and beyond sTP, so you're at 10 total.

to get 17 TP, you need 48 sTP (35 from traits and meditate), so you're 3 short. you can get from keeping your domaru (which is indeed a fine WS body; what's better, 2STR on WS or a 6hit?) or switching to hachiman sune-ate and upgrading body to osode (net gain of a whopping 1 STR unless you HQ). WSing in askar body is another option, as 2% DA is about 1% WS DoT, which is comparable to the 3 STR you lose (plus, if ATT isn't capped, the ATT on askar can help, while ACC will always be capped).
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
#8 Nov 05 2009 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
899 posts
Rajas, Brutal, Ecphoria and Rose Strap will allow you to keep Haste in every important slot. WSing in Rose Strap, Rajas, Brutal, and AF+1 pants will keep your 6hit too. Definitely pick up the strap, it's a loss of 1 or 3 accuracy depending on your ring for 3% haste.
____________________________
Watusa of Lakshmi

svlyons wrote:
Same sorta thing with Watusa. I saw him fishing on the ferry one time. It felt like a hollywood celebrity sighting.
#9 Nov 06 2009 at 12:51 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
623 posts
While we are on the subject of STR for WSs....

Forager's mantle
DEF: 7 STR +3 Attack +15

Smilodon mantle +1
DEF: 10 STR +5

And its cheap too....
____________________________
Chanti
Clothcraft 97 +3
Samurai 75
Monk 66
All around flirt
#10 Nov 06 2009 at 3:34 AM Rating: Good
***
2,620 posts
Smildon+1.

Basically STR > ALL, 1%DA ~= 2STR

Gekko is the best because it gets the biggest att boost, that doesn't mean you should stop using Yuki or Kasha to close SC's with.

There are instances where DMG from Gekko is comparibly lower than it should be, and the only explanation to a mob that has no physical dmg resistance is its defence is to high maybe from its natural + self def buffs.

In these cases I really don't know what to advise. If Gekko doubles attack, then a piece with a large amount of att like Askar body and Foragers could well be the best option, I really can not give an answer to that kinda thing though, and I can't remmember ever really seeing any theory on it.

Say for example Gekko double's your attack, then Forgagers + Askar would net you an additional 42att + 2% DA at the sacrifice of 4-5WSC (or 8STR over Osode+smildon+1).




Ok f'k it, i'll try doing some math of my own. Random lvl90 mob has 100VIT & 450defence (that could include defence traits & a self buff or w/e)

situation: Your eating Pizza+1 so you have ACC to hit the actual mob, but its not a zerg, and you get March's if your lucky which has no play in this.

You WS in 130STR & 460att (the standard Osode+Smildon setup)- we're gonna see which is better, 8STR or 42att+2%DA (the 42att is the additional att after the att from 8STR has been subtracted)

Your using a Hagun, so Base damage is 75 + (130*0.75*0.83) + ((130-100+4)/4) = 163

pDIF (using our attack value doubled) = 920 / 450 - 0.75 = 1.29

ftp = 1.975 (ws @ 100% + gorget), Double Attack is 5% (using /DRG sj + Rose strap), Overwhelm is 19%.

(163 * 1.975 * 1.29 * 1.19) + (163 * 1.29 * 1.19 * 0.05) = 506DMG (Osode + smildon+1)

Instead of Osode+Smildon, we now have Askar+Foragers which is -8STR +42att + 2%DA

Base DMG = 156
pDIF = 1.39
DA = 7%

(156 * 1.975 * 1.39 * 1.19) + (156 * 1.39 * 1.19 * 0.07) = 527DMG (Askar body + Foragers)


Make what you want out of that, but doing that same comparison with colibri with 327defence and 67VIT

pDIF with Osode + Smildon = 2.45, Base DMG is 171
pDIF with Askar + Foragers is 2.59, Base DMG is 164

Osode + smildon Gekko = 984 + 24 = 1008
Askar + Foragers Gekko = 998 + 35 = 1033

Ok, so to ppl who can read that np - whats up there? Am I wrong presuming Gekko double's your attack? From the testing done by this guy on BG i was on the right lines.

EDIT: Someone plz elaborate - is Foragers + Askar Korazin really better than Osode + Smildon+1 for Tachi: Gekko?




Edited, Nov 6th 2009 4:46am by Sandmasterr
____________________________
Taking a break.
#11 Nov 06 2009 at 4:20 AM Rating: Excellent
**
712 posts
BleedTheSky wrote:
Ok, maybe I'll swap in Ecphoria then. My current SAM gear is as follows in case it might change anything....this was before the Rose Strap change.

[TP]

Hagun | Pole Grip | Lightning Bow +1
Askar | PCC | Brutal | Fowling
Hauby +1 | Hachiman +1 | Rajas | Iota
Forager's | Swift | Haidate | Sarutobi

[WS]

Hagun | Pole Grip | Lightning Bow +1
Shura | Snow Gorget | Brutal | Fowling
Hachiman | Alkyoneus' | Rajas | Flame
Forager's | Warwolf | AF+1 | Askar

I know, lol @ the Hachiman Domaruuuuuu, but I'm not a SAM main, I only use it for a few things, so I never bothered getting an Osode. My WS set gives me 17 TP return on it, so I only needed 5 more hits to get 100 TP assuming I didn't miss at all. Would this make a difference in choosing the Ecphoria at all?


Setup is fine, you dont need the ring since you are ws'ing in Domaru body. If you ever decide to get Osode for sam(thought Osode was good for war too for SC/RR) then you can use the ring to tp in, or just was in hachi feet(if osode is on) difference is w/e your ring was to ecph vs 1 str.
____________________________
SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#12 Nov 06 2009 at 4:30 AM Rating: Excellent
**
712 posts
Quote:
Smildon+1.

Basically STR > ALL, 1%DA ~= 2STR

Gekko is the best because it gets the biggest att boost, that doesn't mean you should stop using Yuki or Kasha to close SC's with.

There are instances where DMG from Gekko is comparibly lower than it should be, and the only explanation to a mob that has no physical dmg resistance is its defence is to high maybe from its natural + self def buffs.

In these cases I really don't know what to advise. If Gekko doubles attack, then a piece with a large amount of att like Askar body and Foragers could well be the best option, I really can not give an answer to that kinda thing though, and I can't remmember ever really seeing any theory on it.

Say for example Gekko double's your attack, then Forgagers + Askar would net you an additional 42att + 2% DA at the sacrifice of 4-5WSC (or 8STR over Osode+smildon+1).




Ok f'k it, i'll try doing some math of my own. Random lvl90 mob has 100VIT & 450defence (that could include defence traits & a self buff or w/e)

situation: Your eating Pizza+1 so you have ACC to hit the actual mob, but its not a zerg, and you get March's if your lucky which has no play in this.

You WS in 130STR & 460att (the standard Osode+Smildon setup)- we're gonna see which is better, 8STR or 42att+2%DA (the 42att is the additional att after the att from 8STR has been subtracted)

Your using a Hagun, so Base damage is 75 + (130*0.75*0.83) + ((130-100+4)/4) = 163

pDIF (using our attack value doubled) = 920 / 450 - 0.75 = 1.29

ftp = 1.975 (ws @ 100% + gorget), Double Attack is 5% (using /DRG sj + Rose strap), Overwhelm is 19%.

(163 * 1.975 * 1.29 * 1.19) + (163 * 1.29 * 1.19 * 0.05) = 506DMG (Osode + smildon+1)

Instead of Osode+Smildon, we now have Askar+Foragers which is -8STR +42att + 2%DA

Base DMG = 156
pDIF = 1.39
DA = 7%

(156 * 1.975 * 1.39 * 1.19) + (156 * 1.39 * 1.19 * 0.07) = 527DMG (Askar body + Foragers)


Make what you want out of that, but doing that same comparison with colibri with 327defence and 67VIT

pDIF with Osode + Smildon = 2.45, Base DMG is 171
pDIF with Askar + Foragers is 2.59, Base DMG is 164

Osode + smildon Gekko = 984 + 24 = 1008
Askar + Foragers Gekko = 998 + 35 = 1033

Ok, so to ppl who can read that np - whats up there? Am I wrong presuming Gekko double's your attack? From the testing done by this guy on BG i was on the right lines.

EDIT: Someone plz elaborate - is Foragers + Askar Korazin really better than Osode + Smildon+1 for Tachi: Gekko?

Is Dia II being tossed into the mix? wouldnt that make some difference to the result aswell? If it does make a difference, I see no reason not to add it into the equation.


Also if the math that you just calculated is true, then Osode+ Foragers would be better than Askar+Foragers

75+(128*.075*.083) + ((128-100+4)/4) = 162

We would be adding 28att since you lose only 1att from 2str from 130.

pDIF = 948/450 -.075 = 1.36
Keeping the rest the same, OW%,DA%

(162* 1.975* 1.36* 1.19)+ (162* 1.36* 1.19* .05) = 530





Edited, Nov 6th 2009 11:04am by hitoseijuro
____________________________
SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#13 Nov 06 2009 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
***
2,620 posts
Quote:
We would be adding 28att since you lose only 1att from 2str from 130.


But if att for Gekko is doubled, 12att on Askar + 15att on Foragers = 27

27x2=54

Then, because we lose 8STR in the process, 8STR yields 6att, 6*2 = 12

54att - 12att = 42att, which was the number I used



So its 42att + 2% DA VS 8STR


In the comparison with a high VIT / Defence mob, the Askar/Forager combo won by 4.2%

In the Colibri combo, the Askar/Forager combo won by 2.6%

So if DIA II/III was being applied, it would probably come out just about even, if you had att buffs like Choas or Corsair's then it'd probably lose.

What you said about 2STR = 1att, thats not the case for 2H right? Even if it was, it'd push the Askar/Forager's combo ahead further.

If it was Yuki or Kasha, it would be completely different because the att buff's they receive were tested to be a lot lower.


Edited, Nov 6th 2009 8:34am by Sandmasterr
____________________________
Taking a break.
#14 Nov 06 2009 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
*
232 posts
Is there any testing I can look at for this aside from the low sample size one on BG?
____________________________
Wise/Funny quotes go here
#15 Nov 06 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
**
712 posts
Quote:
But if att for Gekko is doubled, 12att on Askar + 15att on Foragers = 27

27x2=54

Then, because we lose 8STR in the process, 8STR yields 6att, 6*2 = 12

54att - 12att = 42att, which was the number I used

Huh?

Thats not what I was implying by 28att

28att is for Osode+ Foragers, which would beat out Askar+Foragers going with the same calculation as yours.

130str .75 = 97att(97.5)
128str .75 = 96 att

So as you implied that 460 att with 130str for the usual osode+smil setup, when you take of the smil and add in the foragers, str wise its only 2 str off(1att) so its 459, now you get +15att from foragers, 474, x2(gekko) 948, which is 28att more than the osode/smil combo. Add in the math I put in above and you get 530 which beats the askar/forage combo by a small margin of 3.
____________________________
SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#16 Nov 06 2009 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
***
2,620 posts
ahh my bad lol

EDIT: so does this math basically say that Forager's > Smildon +1 for Gekko?

I know your a mathspert Hito, and I know other regulars who know the math have read this by now too. If this is correct, then this changes things a little bit right? If it is correct, then it can't just be dismissed.

Edited, Nov 6th 2009 4:44pm by Sandmasterr
____________________________
Taking a break.
#17 Nov 07 2009 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
6,481 posts
Quote:
I know your a mathspert Hito, and I know other regulars who know the math have read this by now too. If this is correct, then this changes things a little bit right? If it is correct, then it can't just be dismissed.
It's important, so I don't want to rush it. Couple small things though: if you want to compare smil+1 v foragers don't include askar v osode too then not mention it after the fact, it's bad practice; what did we decide was the new 2h pDIF cap? 2.65?; are we working on the assumption ratio/cratio have a cap?; in a specific example like this you probably shouldn't give DA'd hits ratio bonus, I've been meaning to look through some old parses to try and back calc if this is true though; also the def/VIT values BG YGK post lists aren't even close to the ones figured out by studio gobli (~400 vs ~600).

There probably are situations where atk is important, and if you're not capping atk is definitely important (2x as much as it used to be :p), but I feel it's more productive to get the the right buffs/debuffs than rework gear for the nitch.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#18 Nov 07 2009 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Sandmasterr wrote:
EDIT: so does this math basically say that Forager's > Smildon +1 for Gekko?
I'd rather have the attack for when I need it still, as opposed to having the STR when I don't. Plus, I don't want to carry around a smilodon +1. I have too much situational **** and I'm happy to go without it.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#19 Nov 07 2009 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
***
2,620 posts
Quote:
if you want to compare smil+1 v foragers don't include askar v osode too then not mention it after the fact, it's bad practice;


True, but it was more because (forgetting the att on the 2 pieces for now) each piece is about 2STR better - Osode's 10STR being around 2STR better than 5STR+2DA, and Smildon's 5STR being better than Forager's 3STR. Each piece then has a substantial amount of att on after that 12&15.

When it comes to pDIF testing, ratio of ~2.6 sounds correct because i'm sure ppl were seeing numbers of up to ~3.0pDIF non-crits, but i've only seen BG testing and BG's conversion of SG - i'm english myself, and can't understand any Japanese :( I wanted you guys to post + more anyway shinta + Bs

Quote:

but I feel it's more productive to get the the right buffs/debuffs than rework gear for the nitch.


Wouldn't that fall under SIS? We could at least find the ratio where
Forager's is > Smildon+1 and vis-versa, then let ppl decide which one is more productive in the long run?


Edited, Nov 7th 2009 6:01pm by Sandmasterr
____________________________
Taking a break.
#20 Nov 08 2009 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
*
60 posts
Posted about pDIF recently in the THF forums too, as far as I can tell, testing from the last time all that stuff was messed with showed cRatio capping at around 2.25-2.3 with the pDIF range from 1.9-2.7
#21 Nov 09 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
***
2,620 posts
Quote:
Posted about pDIF recently in the THF forums too, as far as I can tell, testing from the last time all that stuff was messed with showed cRatio capping at around 2.25-2.3 with the pDIF range from 1.9-2.7


That sounds about right for 1H'ers, but not for 2h's
____________________________
Taking a break.
#22 Nov 09 2009 at 6:23 AM Rating: Good
*
60 posts
1H's cap at 2 cRatio (1.6-2.4 pDIF), though it may have been extended slightly after one of the patches, it's still basically correct.
#23 Nov 10 2009 at 1:09 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
1,567 posts
TarowynXI wrote:
1H's cap at 2 cRatio (1.6-2.4 pDIF), though it may have been extended slightly after one of the patches, it's still basically correct.

No, what they added was a randomizer which adds 1.00 to 1.05, which can apply to anything. It makes crits max out at 3.15 and 1h pdif can max out ~2.52 or so. Atleast, back when this was in full discussion, that's what was found out/concluded. Starfox was the one who posted the info iirc.
____________________________
Chatokun 90DRG | 75RDM | 82BRD | 90THF | 90NIN | 75SAM | 90BLU
Valefor Server
Linkshell: Heresy
#24 Nov 10 2009 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
*
60 posts
Hmmm, got any links to the testing? Been trying to read whatever info is out lately since pDIF is just way more complicated then it should be, lol.
#25 Nov 14 2009 at 8:07 PM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
*****
10,813 posts
TarowynXI wrote:
Hmmm, got any links to the testing? Been trying to read whatever info is out lately since pDIF is just way more complicated then it should be, lol.


google stuff like 'allakhazam starfox pdif kensho' other terms 'milich hand-to-hand update dune boots kick attacks cratio' and whatever other seemingly relevant terms you can find. starfox found the tests in japanese, and he explains how you can make sense of 1h pDIF if there's a random multiplier.

edit: found this by googling exactly that **** i wrote up there.

Edited, Nov 14th 2009 9:20pm by milich
____________________________
pahn
retired monk

i wish to be the red comet.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 25 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (25)