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#52 Sep 29 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#53 Sep 29 2009 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for doing that for me. I stopped after "is the"

But no.

Quote:
Honestly, I'd prefer if you just think I'm a trolling liar.


But fine. I will give you a hint. Maybe even a couple. The catch is that I'm PMing it to you, and I won't discuss it here. And you should in no way interpret this as me committing myself to the discussion.

Nobody thought that story was funny? True story, hand to god.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#54 Sep 29 2009 at 7:37 PM Rating: Good
Out of curiosity, is the divide and concur strategy actually working on anyone?

Jabba Desilijic Tiure wrote:
You weak-minded fool! He's using an old Jedi mind trick!
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#55 Sep 29 2009 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
divide and concur


Was that an intentional pun? I like it.

But no one else has PM'd me if that's what you're asking. I was only going to talk to one person about it anyway. Then they're welcome to convey the results of the discussion to the masses if they so choose, but I am determined to avoid having a public debate about FFXI math. Not as determined to avoid a debate about the debate though. I mentioned that math is not a preferred recreation of mine, but psychology and sociology definitely are.

And particularly in Western individualistic societies, there's an ingrained tendency to stick to your guns once you've committed to something publicly. Some interesting research there. Infer from that what you will.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#56 Sep 29 2009 at 11:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thats all well and good, but many of alla's regular's cry out for math, its math behind an MMO which makes it entertaining for many ppl to practice and to read.

These are alla's Job forum's, and although certain topics occasionally head off into philosophical debates, or just plain joking, your saying to everyone that reads this thread that you have spotted a/some flaws but won't tell.

No-one here is asking you to tutor them, or for any kind of math lesson, we simply now want to know what you have found out. All it takes is one post, and then you can let the rest of us debate it if it holds any weight.

Also, that story might have been entertaining, and ppl might have talked about it, but derails usually come after the main content of the thread has been dealt with.

You say your not going to post anymore, yet you do, so instead of all this beating around the bush, just put your argument on the table. It won't hurt you. Luckily for you too, your posts are not being rated down either, if 95% of alla's posting population had tried to do what your doing, it would be sub-def's all the way.

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Taking a break.
#57 Sep 30 2009 at 12:24 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
These are alla's Job forum's, and although certain topics occasionally head off into philosophical debates, or just plain joking, your saying to everyone that reads this thread that you have spotted a/some flaws but won't tell.

No-one here is asking you to tutor them, or for any kind of math lesson, we simply now want to know what you have found out. All it takes is one post, and then you can let the rest of us debate it if it holds any weight.


Unfortunately I just don't believe that it's that simple. I've been involved in many relatively simple math debates in the past-- I've even seen people completely snub proof that looks them square in the eye-- and maybe life just has me that cynical, but somewhere between my perceptions that "people will believe what they want to believe" and of my own limitations at convincing people (I am not that succinct, if you hadn't noticed), it just doesn't seem worth the effort.

And don't get the wrong idea. I would never completely exclude the possibility that I'm wrong. It just doesn't really matter to me at this point whether I am or not, or for that matter, if all the melee DD in Vanadiel are right or wrong. It's fun for you guys, but it's an unimportant nuisance to me.

Quote:
Also, that story might have been entertaining, and ppl might have talked about it, but derails usually come after the main content of the thread has been dealt with.


Yeah, I was afraid of that :/ I actually called my brother first to tell him about it but he didn't answer. I knew the timing was bad, but I just had to share if with the first pair of ears/eyes I could. Don't worry, I still have the story about how the firefighters stole my rug tucked away for later.

Quote:

You say your not going to post anymore, yet you do, so instead of all this beating around the bush, just put your argument on the table. It won't hurt you. Luckily for you too, your posts are not being rated down either, if 95% of alla's posting population had tried to do what your doing, it would be sub-def's all the way.


Correction: I'm not going to discuss the particulars of the math anymore. But I'm actually enjoying this (helps that I'm posting during breaks from reading boring studies and commercials). And I really do appreciate that I have not received a stream of ratedowns in light of my being so uncooperative, where I probably deserve it. It's not something I would normally care about, but I guess it gives me a little more faith in internet humanity. Or maybe the board is just dead? Now I'm a little tempted to invite ratedowns just to see, but I guess I could at least express my gratitude by not being a complete troll.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#58 Sep 30 2009 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
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Correction: I'm not going to discuss the particulars of the math anymore. But I'm actually enjoying this


Trolls enjoy posting just to get people wound up. Also, you have not begun to discuss the particulars of the math at all, other than the initial confusion you had.
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Taking a break.
#59 Sep 30 2009 at 4:31 AM Rating: Default
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Jabba Desilijic Tiure wrote:
You weak-minded fool! He's using an old Jedi mind trick!


I think you missunderstood the mind trick. It seems to be working **** fine, as it got you all (and myself, tbh) very curious to see whether or not he'll post something valuable in the thread. So curious in fact, that you keep arguing with him for such a long time.

You noticed already that if he had just tossed his maths on the thread, he'd have spent much less effort writting then he's wasting now. So here's my theory about this:

1- He's not wasting. That's his game and you all fell for it
2- He has nothing. He noticed a flaw in his theory and he's prolonging the discussion to sustain theory #1 until you all stop writing
3- He does have something, but he simply won't share in public by "fear" of the reaction of the Alla regulars (which as shown argued by myself in recent thread, is not always the appropriated and often missplaced)

Now, no offense meant, but I'm going with #2 (mainly cuz I've done it a couple of times ><)

Sorry Kachi, you lost my attention on that story. Not your fault tho, I simply had my mind somewhere else.

Edited, Sep 30th 2009 8:34am by sbrubles
#60 Sep 30 2009 at 4:33 AM Rating: Good
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Excuse my ignorance but...what exactly is the haste cap from gear? What +haste is too low to use over +ACC? What is the max haste you should have?
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#61 Sep 30 2009 at 5:17 AM Rating: Decent
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ManifestOfKujata wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but...what exactly is the haste cap from gear?

256/1025 to be exact.
But practically, you need 26% of written haste from your gear.
e.g.: Dusk Gloves is 3, Swift belt is 4, etc etc

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What +haste is too low to use over +ACC?

Theoretically and practically, 2 acc shouldn't do better than 1% haste

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What is the max haste you should have?

As much as you can but retaining your hit rate as high as possible
#62 Sep 30 2009 at 8:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Trolls enjoy posting just to get people wound up.


Well I'm not -trying- to get you wound up. Are you getting wound up?

Quote:
You noticed already that if he had just tossed his maths on the thread, he'd have spent much less effort writting then he's wasting now.


Well that conclusion doesn't necessarily follow. For one, effort alone is not the only motivational factor in play here-- my value of the discussion is equally important. Which feels like more effort-- writing 10 pages and enjoying every word, or a single page that you're dreading? Also, you're assuming that if I bring it up, I won't be dragged into 3 or 4 pages of further discussion.

As for your list, I haven't noticed any flaw, but sure, it could be there. You could factor in the % of my doubt as a portion of the reasoning either way (reducing my value of the task and increasing my perception of projected effort). Mostly it's 3 and the opposite of 1 (it's not my game that I want to play, but "their game" that I don't), but it's certainly true that I've attempted to change the objective of the game to that end.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#63 Sep 30 2009 at 8:20 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
What +haste is too low to use over +ACC?

Theoretically and practically, 2 acc shouldn't do better than 1% haste

Practically 1%haste>2acc almost always since we have hasso, other gear and in party, mage buffs.
Quote:
starting at 0% haste adding acc is better untill it caps
at 5% haste adding acc is better untill right at the cap
at 10% haste (~1 march song, or just hasso) adding 1% haste is better than adding 1% acc if your acc is above ~90%
at 15% haste (WHM/Garuda haste spell) you reach this threshold at ~85% acc
at 20%haste (double march or WHM haste + turban or hasso+march) you only need ~78% acc to hit this threshold
25% haste (hasso+WHM haste) ~75% acc
30% haste (hasso + double march) ~71% acc
35% haste (hasso+WHM haste +10% gear) threshold is a miserable ~65% acc


if you want to compare other amounts:

figure out: (+acc/2 + current acc%)/(current acc%) and (100-current haste)/(100-current haste - increase in haste), then take the bigger one.

ex: @88%acc and 45%haste minus w/e slot in question you're looking at 3% haste or 12acc

(12/2+88)/88= 1.06818x
(100-45)/(100-45-3)= 1.05769x

so you should take the acc
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#64 Sep 30 2009 at 9:44 AM Rating: Default
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Honestly, why do you numbnuts wring your hands about double attack having a linear effect on TP-phase damage only (ignoring for now that DA also affects WS frequency and WS damage)?

Ultimately, the only important observation when comparing factors that affect melee damage is that haste reduces effective delay, hence is more efficient at increasing damage/time the more you stack. By comparison, pretty much any other factor you would consider is less efficient, relatively speaking. Retarded, in-a-vacuum faulty demonstrations of "increasing/decreasing returns" in terms of percent change are retarded when the only real point of comparing **** in terms of percent change is to abstract away all the other things that are held "fixed" (all other gear the same).

Moreover, if you have any grasp of basic calculus, it is sufficient to observe that the rate of change (NOT PERCENT CHANGE) of "damage over time" with "haste" increases fast enough so that, as a necessary consequence, your sophistic demonstrations of haste's "increasing returns" lead to the correct conclusion in the wrong way.

By comparison, the rate of change of "damage over time" with double attack, when accounting for DA's effect on weapon skillfrequency and damage (unless you never use a WS, which is retarded), is also increasing... but much more slowly than in the case of haste. Consequently, 1 point of DA is (eventually) less efficient given higher base DA levels. OMG, something can have (slow) increasing rate of return yet be less efficient in terms of a percent change, will your brains explode?

Since most of you obviously fail to grasp the difference between percent change and rate of change, I look forward to your responses.
#65 Sep 30 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Also, you're assuming that if I bring it up, I won't be dragged into 3 or 4 pages of further discussion.

hehe I didn't think that through ^^
#66 Sep 30 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
Glamrawkus wrote:
Overly obvious sock Trolling

You're doing it wrong

EDIT: ooo I found a picture:

Quote:
But no one else has PM'd me if that's what you're asking. I was only going to talk to one person about it anyway. Then they're welcome to convey the results of the discussion to the masses if they so choose, but I am determined to avoid having a public debate about FFXI math.
I feel loved now Smiley: laugh

Edited, Sep 30th 2009 3:00pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#67 Sep 30 2009 at 12:16 PM Rating: Default
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Aw, I missed the picture (btw, you're abusing that premium more than a free day pass with a $2000 hooker). Anyway, I swear it's not me. I'm far too lazy to bold all those words. Though I don't really disagree.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#68 Sep 30 2009 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
Kachi wrote:
(btw, you're abusing that premium more than a free day pass with a $2000 hooker)
I've only got a couple days of free-premium left Smiley: lol
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#69 Sep 30 2009 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Kachi wrote:
As for your list, I haven't noticed any flaw, but sure, it could be there. You could factor in the % of my doubt as a portion of the reasoning either way (reducing my value of the task and increasing my perception of projected effort). Mostly it's 3 and the opposite of 1 (it's not my game that I want to play, but "their game" that I don't), but it's certainly true that I've attempted to change the objective of the game to that end.
Can you say any more without saying anything at all?
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#70 Oct 01 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
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? I said quite a bit there. You might not care about any of it, but it wasn't directed at you anyway.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#71 Oct 09 2009 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Still waiting on that explanation. If we're all missing something blatantly obvious and you can show us a much more accurate way to represent DoT increases in the game I'd certainly like to know about it.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#72Glamrawkus, Posted: Oct 10 2009 at 6:12 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Grow up, but that's asking a lot of jackoffs who give themselves scholarly labels ("LOL") yet have shown little evidence of critical thinking here.
#73 Oct 10 2009 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Glamrawkus wrote:
Professor shintasama wrote:
Glamrawkus wrote:
Overly obvious sock Trolling

You're doing it wrong


Grow up, but that's asking a lot of jackoffs who give themselves scholarly labels ("LOL") yet have shown little evidence of critical thinking here.

For the few who actually will even consider a concrete example, consider the percent increase in rate of damage from subbing /WAR, with double attack +10%, starting from 0% DA. For the sake of simplicity, let hit rate be 100% in this example. (No Meditate either.) Also, for this crude example, suppose all hits whether during TP generation or using a weapon skill have the same average damage/hit.

For a 6 hits to 100 TP situation, on average it'll take 4.6281 rounds to accumulate 100 TP while on average landing 5.0909 hits in the process of reaching 100 TP. 5.0909/4.6281 = 1.1 attacks per round, so obviously the DA rate is "conserved." This should make sense because some attacks will occur in excess of 100 TP with non-zero DA.

Now suppose you're spamming Penta Thrust. Since we know DA can proc twice (first hit and another hit) on a multi-hit weapon skill, 5.2 is the average number of hits of Penta Thrust. Therefore, on average there will be (5.0909 + 5.2)/4.6281 = 2.223571 total attacks/round. Without /WAR the average is 2 total attacks/round. The percent increase (on average) is then (2.223571/2 - 1)*100% = 11.18%. If you never use a WS, then the percent increase is 10%.

I didn't say this is what you'd actually achieve in practice but is kind of a best-case scenario. Also, you can convert attacks to damage (as damage/hit can be different during TP gain than during WS execution) and rounds to an appropriate unit of time as necessary.
A week and a half necro and that's the best you could come up with?

I already said that I don't give a **** about the "total gain" perspective you've listed above because it's not useful for doing comparisons. Way to waste time by not paying attention though.


thinking point:
150/100 = (148/100)*(149/148)*(150/149)

thinking question:
Whats better: 5 Attack or 3 Strength?

Edited, Oct 10th 2009 12:42pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#74Glamrawkus, Posted: Oct 10 2009 at 12:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Right. Percent change in "DoT" != "total gain." It doesn't matter how the result comes about despite your blind fixation on that.
#75 Oct 10 2009 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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Glamrawkus wrote:
shintasama wrote:
I already said that I don't give a **** about the "total gain" perspective you've listed above because it's not useful for doing comparisons. Way to waste time by not paying attention though.

Right. Percent change in "DoT" != "total gain." It doesn't matter how the result comes about despite your blind fixation on that.

the problem is:
Glam wrote:
starting from 0% DA.
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#76Glamrawkus, Posted: Oct 10 2009 at 1:23 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The point of the earlier example is to show explicitly that the overall effect of additional DA will be more than the "nominal," as slight as it is, which depends mainly on the potency of secondary hits of the WS and the number of hits of the WS. (Arguing that it is worthless if you don't spam WSes is like arguing store TP is worthless if you don't spam WSes.) And why not consider the overall effect other than laziness or ignorance? (Laziness I can understand because most comparisons are meant to be merely quick and dirty.) You find the percent change from additional haste, that affects both TP-hit frequency and WS frequency. Typical computed percent changes from additional DA don't account for WS frequency or WS average damage though.
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