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Ninja Equipment Guide III (Update: 10/17/2008)Follow

#52 Aug 03 2008 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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Nice guide, i'd add Denali Bonnet which replace Walahra Turban.
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#53 Aug 03 2008 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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VeyronMick, ****** Superhero wrote:

KidHendrix wrote:

Uhm.. what else.. I'd take the Hikazu Hara-ate out of the guide. It is a nice piece, but it also comes from Salvage and wouldn't be accessible to people who don't have other level 75 jobs.


To be honest most guides will have a ton of gear listed that most people will never achieve. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be in the list, even people with the best of gear need to refer to guides once in a while.


Umm.. yeah, but you don't even say "This is from Salvage and won't be accessible unless you already have a level 75 job." Yes, someone could easily click the link provided and see that for themselves, but then they'd also be kind of annoyed that you mentioned a piece from the Hikazu set in the first place (since a newbie ninja would have no way of getting this).

The thing about the fluctuating economy/drop rate doesn't make too much sense either. The Hocho and other katanas aren't like the Scorpion Harness or Hauby where they can be crafted and the price is just determined by the availability of the Venomous Claw or the Damascus Ingot. On most servers that even bother to sell it on the AH, the Hocho is about one million gil and really doesn't offer a sizable enough increase in DoT to make it worth mentioning.

On another note.. why don't you mention the Evasion Earring?

Edited, Aug 3rd 2008 7:43pm by KidHendrix
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#54 Aug 03 2008 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Nice guide, i'd add Denali Bonnet which replace Walahra Turban.


Possibly only for a haste/evasion hybrid build for soloing, and even then it's a sidegrade.
#55 Aug 04 2008 at 2:44 AM Rating: Decent
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LV35 Evasion Ear Ring: Evasion Skill +3

didnt see this there on the list. imo a must have.

and if you are Hume M for ws:

Marine M Boots lv62
Def: 9 HP: 60 STR: 3 DEX: 3 VIT: 2 AGI: 2 INT: -3 MND: -3 CHR: -3

Edited, Aug 4th 2008 6:47am by brudigga
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#56 Aug 04 2008 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Level 74 - Koga Chainmail (RareEx)(AF2)
This is a nice body piece and could "possibly" replace a Hauby.


koga body is one of the best tp body pieces currently available if you need accuracy/attk and if you dont need them youd probably use af in your haste build.

Dzian wrote:
personally at the lower range levels i found tiger stole to be better than spike necklace so could be worth adding. attack does far more for you than str at those levels. Also the enchanted mighty rings and vision rings at level 14. str+1 & attk+5 is better than str+2 easily.


this is true. those rings are good for any dd class and 50 charges will last you a fair few levels. easily take you to 30 where you might use shikrae rings or maybe 40 for woodsman/snipers.

Dzian wrote:
noritsune kotes can be a really nice ws piece pre merits. one of the first things you should be doing with jins is focussing on accuracy to improve consistency and if your lacking ktn merits these can make a huge difference.
i'll agree. its true that accuraccy should be your first concern on jins but last time i checked these hands were not cheap. if you need accuracy and you can get them then do it. or put simply attack means nothing if you cant land hits in the first place.

Dzian wrote:
horomusha vs ochiodus is kinda meh. thats one subject that ppl will never agree on.


all i can say is lol not a week goes by where someone doesnt ask this. i tend to agree with the wikiforum users h is better till dusk then get o for ws and tp in dusk.

dzian wrote:
final mention maybe RSE feet at 62. although not great for all rases the humes marine boots with str+3 dex+3 are a very nice option for ws.


i'm a freaking galka!!! but yeah rse feet are worth a mention i believe the taru boots have str+4!

other aditions shikrae rings lvl 30acc+2 racc+2 can be a pain to get but still nice given the lack of alternative accuracy options available.

other than all that your guide is looking pretty good and has a nice chunk of the newer armour pieces listed which is nice to see.

Quote:
To be honest most guides will have a ton of gear listed that most people will never achieve. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be in the list, even people with the best of gear need to refer to guides once in a while.


yes its true some stuff can be hard to get but not its not just the beginners that could use an equipment database. i'm 75 in 5 jobs and i still flick through various equipment guides and occasionally see a "wow i didnt know about that item" so leave em in.

to remove something from the guide because its hard to get could leave you with an empty guide. a noob ninja just dinging lvl 34 would find it hard to kill mee deggi for example so better take kotes out of the guide. same noob would find it impossible to do pms and get rajas so get take it out the guide. and ulathaens, suppa, koga, byakkos etc etc. soon have an empty guide.

so yeah leave it all in. youve linked all the items so ppl can easily read up on them and work out if having x item is an option to them. whos to say whats acceptable and whats not. for example to some ppl byakkos might be extremely easy to get but to others just finding a sky shell that has good times for them can be a nightmare making byakkos seemingly impossible for them. leave it all in the guide and let the person reading decide if they can get that item or not.

Edited, Aug 4th 2008 12:44pm by Marneusc
#57 Aug 04 2008 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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It's coming along wonderfully. Really good job, man. Just from when i commented last week, it's really fleshed out. One of the most complete and thorough equipment guides i've seen in quite some time. A lot of people will appreciate this seeing as almost every player ends up leveling Nin sooner or later to 37, at least. I know it's frustrating when i start a new job and browse through the forum equipment guides to see last edited in August 2006 at the bottom of half of them.
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#58 Aug 04 2008 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
I've added the new armour the people have suggested.

The mighty ring for some reason never appeared on my radar, even after levelling that many DD jobs on 3 characters. lol

I've also updated the comments on certain pieces with better descriptions that others have provided.



Thrustie wrote:

It's coming along wonderfully. Really good job, man. Just from when i commented last week, it's really fleshed out.


The improvements have really come from the nin community wanting to help out.

Correcting mistakes/omissions aside, there have been some great suggestions including the section dealing with stats and weapon choices. This kind of information is invaluable to us noobs.

Still I appreciate the thanks, I've put roughly 2 weeks of gaming time into it so far, but I see it as time well spent.


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#59 Aug 04 2008 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ammo ~ Peiste Dart ~ Level 50 STR+1 AGI+1

Much more reasonably priced than the Optical Needle and superior or equivalent to most races' RSE Sachet. The only piece I would use over this pre-56 is Orphic Egg when there is a bard in the party.
#60 Aug 04 2008 at 4:18 PM Rating: Default
AmbroseHades wrote:
Ammo ~ Peiste Dart ~ Level 50 STR+1 AGI+1

Much more reasonably priced than the Optical Needle and superior or equivalent to most races' RSE Sachet. The only piece I would use over this pre-56 is Orphic Egg when there is a bard in the party.


Added Orphic Egg and Peiste Dart thanks for spotting them.

I've also added the stats of all armour, weapons, ammo as it was requested.

Not everyone has Javascript enabled on their browser to see the mouse overs.
In doing that I had to create space between each item on the list to make them easier to read.
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#61 Aug 05 2008 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
I've given colour coding a go for the armour section.
Still not sure if this is the best way of doing it, any suggestions are welcome.
I'm in two minds whether to split DD into TP and WS.

Do people think it's good enough to replace the existing nin equipment sticky?

Wow, you're a hard bunch to please, I'm being rated down like a ****.
Saying that it seems to be happening to most people on here at the moment.

Edited, Aug 5th 2008 7:43pm by VeyronMick
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#62 Aug 05 2008 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I still think you need a few things since you decided to have other sections that the current Equipment FAQ doesn't have. Comparing Dual Wield enhancing gear versus Haste enhancing gear might be nice to see under your Haste section (Too bad Pahn isn't a Ninja, though I could play with the math later and post it or find a link for you).

You should probably list links to other guides for certain points you make in the beginning of the guide. For example, you say tanking as a Ninja pre-37 is kind of rough, but you don't really give a detailed explanation on how to handle it. In fact, you kind of make it sound abysmal (Saying that there is nothing you can do to make it a success without a co-tank. While this is partly true, you should give people a little hope or some suggestions via a linked guide!).

You could also list the NIN/RDM guide under the Magic Attack/etc section. If people are going to gear for it, they might as well be aware of making the most of it. Providing a link to Kanican's enmity testing or at least a summary of the findings would be great, too. Little things like the fact that you DO lose enmity (or mob hate) when losing shadows would be nice to see listed as well, though that kind of is out of the scope of a equipment FAQ (Just mentioning it since you do have an enmity section and it wouldn't do the guide justice not to provide more info in some form).

Here's a link to Kanican's stuff. If you scroll down on the page, it does mention a few things concerning enmity boosting gear.

Any other ways that you can flesh out and add more detail to the stuff under "An Overview of Ninja Stats" would be great too. I'm not sure if the 2 AGI = 1 evasion is fact, but I'm not going to dispute it. I can't find any hard proof for it though (whereas we can check the 2 DEX = 1 accuracy thing).

For readability, maybe you could color your comments a different color? It isn't really necessary, but, since you're using colors already to label what build it is for, it could make things a bit easier to read. Alternatively, you could use a different color for the stats of each item.

Still not agreeing with you listing the Hikazu Hara-ate. If the regular gear we could equip wasn't better than the other lowbie Salvage gear needed for the Usukane set, I feel that you would list those pieces as well (the level 15, 25, and other level 35 pieces) as well and that doesn't really sit well with me (Doesn't make you look too experienced if I'm just going to be blunt about it). At least make a comment that the piece wouldn't be available to someone that isn't participating in Salvage with another job because you make it seem like it would be accessible to anyone (As if they simply needed to camp a NM or do a quest).

Minor stuff:

- The third point under the Haste sentence just cuts off. I don't know if you copied it from somewhere, but it's very incomplete. Here's the line ...

"Remember! Haste is pointless for DDing if it only means you miss the mob faster but it."

- You didn't color the ranged stuff. A lot of it has some INT boosting stats and I wasn't sure if you just forgot to or if it was too small of a list to justify coloring it.

- I.. forget what point I was going to make here. I guess you could include how the Dual Wield traits affect katana delay, but that fits into the Haste vs Dual Wield piece I mentioned above.

It's nice otherwise, but I think you could make it the standard guide with some of those tweaks.

Edited, Aug 6th 2008 1:05am by KidHendrix
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#63 Aug 05 2008 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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i really have to say, that your descriptions on many pieces are either stupid, or you just miss part of the use (or give the piece credit when it deserves none).

i'll go through again and list some things that really just make no sense.

Quote:
Level 51 - Earth Staff
Dmg: 30 Dly: 366 VIT: 4 VS. Lightning: 15 Additional Effect: Earth Damage Physical Damage Taken: -20%
This staff can be used to give a bonus to the elemental magic Doton: Ni. Very useful when tanking with the elemental Ni wheel.


also used for endgame tanking.

about ele staves wrote:
Very useful when tanking with the elemental Ni wheel.


it's used for DDing with the ele wheel.

Quote:

Level 75 - Hachiryu Haidate - [DD]
Def: 42 STR: 10 Attack: 5 Enhances "Zanshin" Effect Set: Enhances "Store TP" effect
STR+10 is simply amazing for WS macros.

it's nice and all, but kitty pants are still better.

Quote:
Level 75 - Nu Sash (RareEx) - [DD]
Def: 6 Accuracy: 10 Salvage: Subtle Blow: 5
Essentially a life belt with some defence. Almost nothing is known about this at the moment, so there may be other hidden stats that may be beneficial.

there's no hidden effect on it. this doesn't even deserve to be mentioned here.

Quote:
Level 60 - Potent Belt - [DD]
Def: 5 STR: 3 Accuracy: 8
This is a nice DD belt but Life Belt would still be a better choice. It is a possible WS macro piece, but Life Belt probably edges that scenario too


i can see arguements for tp, but certainly not for ws.


Quote:
Level 55 - Speed Belt / Velocious Belt (RareEx) - [HST]
Haste: 6%
Some of the best haste you can get, still might only be useful from L75, again could lower recast time.


i honestly can't believe you even said this...

Quote:
Level 75 - Usukane Haramaki (RareEx) - [DD] [EVA] [INT]
Def: 40 STR: 8 DEX: 8 INT: 8 Set: Enhances Haste Effect Store TP: 6 Evasion: 12 Accuracy: 12
Like all Usukane you'll probably wear this full time, has excellent TP and WS stats.


again, i can't believe you'd say something like this. usu body is **** near useless, unless you have the full set.

Quote:
Level 75 - Kirin's Osode - [DD] [INT]
Def: 52 MP: 30 STR: 10 DEX: 10 VIT: 10 AGI: 10 INT: 10 MND: 10 CHR: 10 Vs. Light: 50
Very good body, but it's unlikely to parse that much in front of a Hauby. Has some great INT for elemental enfeebles.


you make it sound like it will do (slightly) better then hauby. unless you have capped acc, hauby will always do better.


Quote:
Level 74 - Koga Chainmail (RareEx)(AF2) - [DD]
Def: 46 Ranged Attack: 8 Ranged Accuracy: 8 Attack: 16 Accuracy: 12
This is one of the best tp body pieces you can wear when you need attack and accuracy, you could wear it until you can pull off a haste build.


overrated much? it sucks. hauby is better.

Quote:

Level 72 - Enkidu's Harness (RareEx) - [DD] [EVA]
Def: 50 STR: 5 AGI: 5 Accuracy: 10 Attack: 10 Evasion: 5 Subtle Blow: 5
These is the first real competition for a Hauby, and would probably be preferable to it with its evasion benefits.

it depends on what your doing. eva means nothing for things like merit parties.
Quote:

Level 70 - Fenrir's Earring (RareEx) - [DD]
Nighttime: Ranged Attack: 10 Daytime: Attack: 10
Very good stats for both day and night. Could be work keeping up with the active stats.

during the night, this is about as useful as a vampire earring is during the day.
Quote:

Level 75 - Denali Bonnet (RareEx) - [EVA] [HST]
Def: 21 AGI: 4 MND: 4 Haste: 4% Evasion: 3 Attack: 3 Set: Increases Accuracy
Difficult to recommend as it has lower haste then Walahra, and it doesn't have enough DD stats either of other head pieces. There may be situation uses where it may be useful.


for short fights the 4% haste is EXACTLY THE SAME as 5% haste. 3 attack is more useful the a net increase of 0 hits on anything that dies quickly (quickly as in under ~1 minute). also 21 def over walmart is nice.

Quote:
Level 71 - Hissho Hachimaki - [DD]
Def: 22 Accuracy: 8 Attack: 8
This is a new piece, stats look good, nice attack and accuracy bonus. An alternative for people without O.hat. The lack of evasion is its weakness compared with O.hat.


using ohat over this for anything except when you need the eva is stupid.



i believe the usukane SET deserves to be mentioned, as a great set with a ton of acc, without losing too much haste. however you rate most of the usukane pieces wayyy to highly.


Denali hands should also be mentioned as a great tanking piece.


[quote]Do people think it's good enough to replace the existing nin equipment sticky?[/quote]

it's certainly getting there, but it still has a ways to go.
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#64 Aug 06 2008 at 4:40 AM Rating: Good
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Just noticed an error on Perdu blade description, you list it as obtainable with Chief Sergeant rank but it is Second Lieutenant. ^_^d
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#65 Aug 06 2008 at 5:24 AM Rating: Default
NorientheNotorious wrote:

Just noticed an error on Perdu blade description, you list it as obtainable with Chief Sergeant rank but it is Second Lieutenant. ^_^d


Fixed, thanks for spotting that one.


ThePsychoticOne wrote:
i really have to say, that your descriptions on many pieces are either stupid, or you just miss part of the use (or give the piece credit when it deserves none)


Insults aside, the descriptions are always going to be off, everyone seems to have a different opinion on a lot of them. There could be a case for dropping them altogether.

As for missing part of their use I do have a L50 nin, there is much that I don't know about nin. I've added most of your good suggestions into the guide, you should provide a little more of your reasoning with some comments. Saying a piece "sucks" doesn't really help people understand where you are coming from.


ThePsychoticOne wrote:

it's used for DDing with the ele wheel.


nin has such as poor skill rating with staves you could argue their DD benefit is minimal at best.


ThePsychoticOne wrote:

Quote:
Level 55 - Speed Belt / Velocious Belt (RareEx) - [HST]
Haste: 6%
Some of the best haste you can get, still might only be useful from L75, again could lower recast time.


i honestly can't believe you even said this...


Why? At L55 you have access to minimal haste gear, and accuracy becomes one of the most important stats to nin. Dropping 10 acc for 6 haste doesn't seem worth it. You can't supplement it with sushi against high evasion birds (at least not on my amount of gil), and you can't guarantee having a brd/cor every pt. Speeding up the amount of missed hits doesn't seem practical. You'll need to explain your opinion a bit more to convince me.


ThePsychoticOne wrote:

Quote:
Level 74 - Koga Chainmail (RareEx)(AF2) - [DD]
Def: 46 Ranged Attack: 8 Ranged Accuracy: 8 Attack: 16 Accuracy: 12
This is one of the best tp body pieces you can wear when you need attack and accuracy, you could wear it until you can pull off a haste build.


overrated much? it sucks. hauby is better.


I don't know enough to agree or disagree with this, the comment on this one came from a fellow nin.


ThePsychoticOne wrote:

i believe the usukane SET deserves to be mentioned, as a great set with a ton of acc, without losing too much haste.


Sounds like a good idea I'll work on this in the next day or two.


ThePsychoticOne wrote:

however you rate most of the usukane pieces wayyy to highly.


Agreed, I've toned their comments down a lot to make them a bit more realistic.

Edited, Aug 6th 2008 9:54am by VeyronMick
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#66 Aug 06 2008 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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Okay.. I'm guessing my posts are being ignored. If anything, you could have a lot responded to the things under Minor stuff.

Good luck with your guide and I hope you finish it, but I suggest you start putting your feelings aside and listen to people who have gotten Ninja to 75. If I hurt your feelings, then drop me a PM and we can talk it over.

Edited, Aug 6th 2008 12:44pm by KidHendrix
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#67 Aug 06 2008 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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KidHendrix wrote:
Any other ways that you can flesh out and add more detail to the stuff under "An Overview of Ninja Stats" would be great too. I'm not sure if the 2 AGI = 1 evasion is fact, but I'm not going to dispute it. I can't find any hard proof for it though (whereas we can check the 2 DEX = 1 accuracy thing).


I was going by wiki. The opening already ended up being larger than I intended, what else do you want to see added? I thought long and hard about the pre-37 stuff, but I don't know what to recommend. It's been about two years since my ninja was at that level, and I remember it being ****, nothing I did seemed to work aside from insisting I had someone to co-tank with. I can't think of anything theoretical or practical to make solo tanking pre-ni a success - gear for evasion, and you won't hold hate long at all. Gear for DD, and you won't evade much at all, making re-cast ichi a nightmare. See what I'm getting at?
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#68 Aug 06 2008 at 11:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I don't know enough to agree or disagree with this, the comment on this one came from a fellow nin.


Koga Chainmail is frequently overrated...though the degree to which it is, IMO, is also a bit exaggerated.

What is typically overlooked is that it lacks the STR and DEX of a Hauby. While a NQ Hauby is only 10 ATT/ACC in comparison, the STR and DEX contribute to other things, while also pushing the effective ACC/ATT to 12.5 each. A HQ Hauby, in turn, is 15 ACC/ATT plus the STR/DEX bonuses.

'course, Koga Chainmail also has a nice Ranged bonus and no negative stats. It's a very nice all-around piece, but then again so is a Hauby.

In practice though, going from -20 evasion (well, -22.5 counting -AGI) to neutral evasion only slightly boosts evasion rate in merit (~2% on Greater Colibri with my parsing). If throwing is boosted, then the ranged stats on the Koga would likely be appreciated more.

I have Koga, and Haub +1, Osode, AF+1... really, you're not going to see a huge difference between Koga Chainmail and an NQ Hauby in terms of TP gear (Koga isn't great for WS anyway), or between a Haub and Osode for WS. I've parsed.

The big thing to consider is that your benchmark here is a ~200k AH piece (these days anyway). You can buy a Haub +1 (or a lot of other things) for what people pay for an Osode. It could take months and months to be in the position to lot Koga (or it could use points that take you out of priority for something better).
All that gil/time for something that'll perform around on par with something you've probably owned since level 59, at least as far as TP/WS go.

They're not -terrible-, they're just slightly less optimal pieces that take a lot more effort to get.

Edited, Aug 6th 2008 3:26pm by Isiolia
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#69 Aug 06 2008 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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MithraDooom wrote:
I was going by wiki. The opening already ended up being larger than I intended, what else do you want to see added? I thought long and hard about the pre-37 stuff, but I don't know what to recommend. It's been about two years since my ninja was at that level, and I remember it being ****, nothing I did seemed to work aside from insisting I had someone to co-tank with. I can't think of anything theoretical or practical to make solo tanking pre-ni a success - gear for evasion, and you won't hold hate long at all. Gear for DD, and you won't evade much at all, making re-cast ichi a nightmare. See what I'm getting at?


I understand about the 2 AGI = 1 evasion thing. ^^ I saw it on the wiki when I went to post, but I've just seen contradicting stuff in other threads in the THF forums so I was just throwing my opinion in. Between you and Isiolia, I think I can trust it though. Plus it has to help somehow if it isn't boosting evasion directly.

The only issue I have with the opening is that it introduces a lot of things that Ninja need to know, but it's more of a general intro that may leave a lot of questions. Links to discussions about Evasion tanking, Haste, and etc may be nice to see underneath of each section just in case newbie ninjas wanted to check it out (Most of these links can probably be mooched from the FAQ sticky). For example, Isiolia makes a good point about Haste, but it could use more of an ooomph (or math) to make people get the point.

--------

[Note] I apologize in advance if my math isn't exactly correct, but I think it is.

I.E. Swift belt and Fuma Kyahan at level 50 would only give 7% haste, but with WHM Haste (Which is 15% faster) you'd be at 22% Haste. That's 22% faster swings plus the delay reduction of 25% from Dual Wield. If we use the Sai+1 and the Buboso from the Equipment Guide...

[Info] Delay is calculated by (Delay/60).
Dual Wield III trait lowers delay by 25%.


Before DW III is calculated: 424 Delay
After DW III is calculated: 318 Delay (424 * .75)
After DW III & 7% Haste: 296 Delay (Rounded)
After DW III & 22% Haste: 248 Delay (Rounded)

Without haste you're swinging every 5.3 seconds.
With 22% Haste you're swinging every 4.1 seconds.

[Note] The Buboso and the Kageboshi would have a one second difference as well between wearing and having Haste versus not having it at all. Just in case you're geared that way instead.

That's a little more than a second shaved off per attack round with the gear and the spell. That doesn't look like a lot on paper, but the person with 22% haste is getting five attack rounds for every four attacks rounds that the person without Haste is getting.

It gets a little complicated if you start factoring in whether the person not wearing Haste equipment is wearing Fed. Kyahan and Life Belt (or Swordbelt+1 if your accuracy is insanely good for some reason), but needless to say Haste is yummy and there's the proof. Plus it increases the speed of your Ninjutsu casts, even though the Ni line of Ninjutsu is pretty fast (Could help with Jubaku though).

--------

People are more likely to click the Equipment sticky than the FAQ sticky since they're constantly looking for what is better gear-wise and this would be a perfect opportunity to educate some of the newbie Ninjas as well. (Proof: If you look at the current views of the FAQ sticky vs the current Equipment sticky, you'll notice that the equipment sticky has nearly double the views. They were both made in the same year, albeit a few months apart, and yet there's such a big diff. in views.)

Oh, and I wasn't disagreeing with you about 1 to 37, but it would still be nice to have some links to topics that do talk about how it can be done. When you get Hojo, Jubaku, and Kurayami it gets a bit better (provided you can actually pull off the Ninjutsu!), for example. I really didn't have a hard time if I had someone to help me enfeeble when my Ninjutsu couldn't land (RDM are awesome for that) and then I could always fall back on a co-tank if I had another melee ripping hate off of me.

I think this guide right here is a good example of how to blink tank pre-Ni (and even after you get Ni) and could be good to have linked under the "Ninja before Level 37" section.

Well, uhm.. my post has gotten pretty long so I'll probably end it here.
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#70 Aug 06 2008 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
for short fights the 4% haste is EXACTLY THE SAME as 5% haste. 3 attack is more useful the a net increase of 0 hits on anything that dies quickly (quickly as in under ~1 minute). also 21 def over walmart is nice.


How exactly are people still believing this garbage?

Okay, let's say you're an average endgame ninja in a merit party. Swift Belt, Haidate, Fumas, Dusk Gloves, which makes this a choice between 19% and 20% haste from gear. You've got another 15% from Haste, and 35% delay reduction from Dual Wield. 417 combined Delay on your katanas.

271 Delay after DW
176 Delay 35% haste
179 Delay 34% haste

3 Delay doesn't mean anything to you? That's a difference of a 20th of a second per attack round (Put better, a 1.7% increase in attack speed). If a mob lasts 10 attack rounds (They usually last a bit longer), that's half of a second saved. It's not much, but it's more than 3 more attack gives you. Throw in a march from a BRD/BRD or BRD/COR party and some premium gear, and the difference is still a 20th of a second, but in this case that's a 2.1% increase in attack speed.

This idea that haste gear has to save you one full attack round to be of any use is ludicrous. If your rounds are coming quicker and it only effectively saves you two-thirds of an attack round, guess what? The mob is still dead faster.

Edited, Aug 6th 2008 4:35pm by Weeksy
#71 Aug 06 2008 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
This idea that haste gear has to save you one full attack round to be of any use is ludicrous. If your rounds are coming quicker and it only effectively saves you two-thirds of an attack round, guess what? The mob is still dead faster.


While I don't disagree in principle, I do think there's a point at which you're not looking at a significant enough difference. I'd readily swap Fumas for Usukane feet, despite losing 1% Haste, since the other benefits would outweigh it. Denali head is just a poor example I think, since the 3 ATT wouldn't do much at all for you in most cases.
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#72 Aug 06 2008 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The mob is still dead faster.


as far as i'm concerned saving less then half a second off kill time is pointless.

Quote:
ThePsychoticOne wrote:

Quote:
Level 55 - Speed Belt / Velocious Belt (RareEx) - [HST]
Haste: 6%
Some of the best haste you can get, still might only be useful from L75, again could lower recast time.


i honestly can't believe you even said this...


Why? At L55 you have access to minimal haste gear, and accuracy becomes one of the most important stats to nin. Dropping 10 acc for 6 haste doesn't seem worth it. You can't supplement it with sushi against high evasion birds (at least not on my amount of gil), and you can't guarantee having a brd/cor every pt. Speeding up the amount of missed hits doesn't seem practical. You'll need to explain your opinion a bit more to convince me.


it depends on your acc. assuming haste spell, fuma, and no march, you'd need atleast an 80% hit rate for speed belt to do better, i believe. if you have march, then you'd need even less acc for speed belt to be better.


a few simple things:

for fenrir's earring you swapped the times. it's good in the day, not the night ;)
usukane legs have description for hands. also for these you should move the set effect the end, as some may interpret it as haste+3, and atk+10 being set effects. (this also applies to the rest of the set, excluding feet)

denali hands are listed under body.

for enkidu cap, you recommend ohat over it, even though ohat has .5 more acc. but the 3 dex enkidu has can (maybe) help crit rate, and of course dex is a mod for jin.


overall although i think it still needs some work, i think it's good enough to warrant being stickied.
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#73 Aug 06 2008 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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also, i forgot dex rings deserve to be mentioned. dex rings are far better then str, if you can break a crit tier with it.
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#74 Aug 06 2008 at 2:08 PM Rating: Default
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Isiolia wrote:
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I don't know enough to agree or disagree with this, the comment on this one came from a fellow nin.


Koga Chainmail is frequently overrated...though the degree to which it is, IMO, is also a bit exaggerated.


tbh hauby is overated imo. where by your comparing a nq haub 12.5 acc 12.5 attack to a koga 12acc 16 attack. seems obvious koga is better. yes its true the dex will have a small affect on crits but the 3.5 attk advantage would pretty much outweigh from the various math posts i've read + you would need tons of dex to see a noticable impact on crits.

then to throw in haub+1 15 acc 15 att. and a cost of 2.5 - 3 mill is again a lot of farming time for most ppl and reading all the various maths posts in the forums your only really going to see maybe a 1-1.5% increase in your dot from wearing a haub+1 over koga. in comparison to you ~2% evasion parse. again 2.5 - 3 million gil can be just as hard to get as koga in dynamis and if you find dynamis more fun than farming koga tp and nq haub ws seems a pretty nice choice and potentially saving you 2 or 2.5 million with which you could upgrade a lot of your other equipment choices with.

with a bit of thinking the equips you could buy with that money could give a much bigger boost to your overall dot. at the end of the day you need to think about ya equipment 1 piece wont make or break you and if obtaining x is going to me more fun than obtaining y then and theres minimal difference between them do it lol
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#75 Aug 06 2008 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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sorry, you're forgetting fstr+1 on hauby.
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#76 Aug 06 2008 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
KidHendrix wrote:
Okay.. I'm guessing my posts are being ignored. If anything, you could have a lot responded to the things under Minor stuff.


Not at all, I had to work late the last few nights, then spending time with the wife and kid means I don't have time to respond to all posts immediately.

I'll be working on more of them tonight, will take a day or two off after tonight as I haven't actually played FF in 2 weeks now while working on this (although I did get a couple of nights of Lost Odyssey in.)


KidHendrix wrote:

Good luck with your guide and I hope you finish it


Knowing my luck it'll never be finished will just take less time.


KidHendrix wrote:

but I suggest you start putting your feelings aside and listen to people who have gotten Ninja to 75.


That earlier comment wasn't meant at you, one particular post came across as very condensing, but you get them in forums from time to time, **** I've done a few myself.
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#77 Aug 06 2008 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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VeyronMick, ****** Superhero wrote:
Not at all, I had to work late the last few nights, then spending time with the wife and kid means I don't have time to respond to all posts immediately.

..........

I'll be working on more of them tonight, will take a day or two off after tonight as I haven't actually played FF in 2 weeks now while working on this (although I did get a couple of nights of Lost Odyssey in.)

..........

That earlier comment wasn't meant at you, one particular post came across as very condensing, but you get them in forums from time to time, **** I've done a few myself.


Eesh.. two weeks? If you could use any help, I'd be happy to put in some effort to helping you out. I can probably work out the Haste to DW comparison stuff (and some other things concerning enmity if I can get on to do some testing) and some other stuff I had mentioned. Just drop me a PM and if I don't know it, I'll research it for you (lots of free time until Fall Semester starts). That isn't really fair for you to not play. >_<

Anyway, I'll apologize for thinking you were ignoring my posts (I was going to edit my post this morning, but then I didn't have anything to replace it with! >.>). I didn't know if I had offended you and that's the last thing I want to do to someone who is doing a great job on helping the NIN forum.

On another note, I kind of agree with everyone else on the above haste discussion. 1/20th of a second, while faster, isn't worth the loss of any stats. 20 rounds of attacking to show any sign of improvement isn't going to pay off in most fights and even if it does, you may as well be better off with the 3 attack from the Denali Bonnet. I'm not too familiar with how attack would factor in (I'll have to bug Pahn or look for the damage formula), but 20 rounds of it versus the extra 1% haste.. could make a slight difference. It isn't worth arguing over, but the math may be fun to toy with.
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#78 Aug 06 2008 at 4:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
tbh hauby is overated imo. where by your comparing a nq haub 12.5 acc 12.5 attack to a koga 12acc 16 attack. seems obvious koga is better. yes its true the dex will have a small affect on crits but the 3.5 attk advantage would pretty much outweigh from the various math posts i've read + you would need tons of dex to see a noticable impact on crits.

then to throw in haub+1 15 acc 15 att. and a cost of 2.5 - 3 mill is again a lot of farming time for most ppl and reading all the various maths posts in the forums your only really going to see maybe a 1-1.5% increase in your dot from wearing a haub+1 over koga. in comparison to you ~2% evasion parse. again 2.5 - 3 million gil can be just as hard to get as koga in dynamis and if you find dynamis more fun than farming koga tp and nq haub ws seems a pretty nice choice and potentially saving you 2 or 2.5 million with which you could upgrade a lot of your other equipment choices with.

with a bit of thinking the equips you could buy with that money could give a much bigger boost to your overall dot. at the end of the day you need to think about ya equipment 1 piece wont make or break you and if obtaining x is going to me more fun than obtaining y then and theres minimal difference between them do it lol


I thought I covered why a Haub is actually slightly statistically better despite the very similar ATT/ACC stats. STR and DEX.

fSTR will be there. It's not worth gearing only for STR, but hey, +1-2 damage to both of my Katanas, that's pretty nice. It might take a bit of DEX to see a real difference in crits, but hey, "free" DEX is better than none >.>

Yeah, a +1 is a small difference. The thing to me there is that you're enhancing something that's already successful. A 2% evasion boost on top of the typical 3-7% in merit doesn't make tanking really any different. Edging your ACC%, WS average, etc up just adds to your overall effort. Every little bit helps.
If you're building for evasion, then sure, Koga would be preferable in the slot...but still not as good as some other pieces (Ekidnu's, SH, etc).

The bigger reason is, as I mentioned, a NQ Haub is your benchmark. A 200-250k, level 59 piece that many NINs will have already had since they could wear it.
You can use it on a number of other jobs, in capped events, and for WS. A +1 is a fine investment due to that, but not required.

If you want to TP in Koga, hey, fine, like I said, it's not a big difference. For the purposes of an equipment guide, however, it should be put in perspective.
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#79 Aug 06 2008 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
Tried the suggestion on adding a different colour to the stats to see if would improve readability. It does look better IMO, contrast looks good on my monitor if people are still finding it tough I can change it to something else.

Added colour coding stats to the weapons/ammo/ranged section (INT, EVA etc.)
Kept meaning to get around to that one, but fixing mistakes has been the priority so far.

I've changed the wording in most of the stats to make them clearer. I was getting confused myself on some of them.

Added links in the first section to guides that were recommended to help explain them, I'll still need to go through the nin links section and a couple of pages of nin post to see if any other relevant ones come up.

Fixed the mistakes that people pointed out. Updated the "Hikazu Hara-ate" description to mention you need a L75 job and are participating in Salvage.

Picked the best comment I could find about Koga Chainmail and updated it's description.

Updated the description on the L50 and L55 haste belts to

Will do a bit more work on the first section and will add DEX rings next.
#80 Aug 07 2008 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Please consider adding a comment for fudo & senji that the +% crit only adds to that hand's weapon.

Consider commenting on dusk gloves+1, since you're including speed belt and AV drops.
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#81 Aug 08 2008 at 2:53 AM Rating: Decent
tordall wrote:
Please consider adding a comment for fudo & senji that the +% crit only adds to that hand's weapon.


Added, that's very useful to know. I had assumed from reading the stats the it would apply to both weapons.


tordall wrote:

Consider commenting on dusk gloves+1, since you're including speed belt and AV drops.


I've added them in now.

While they are excellent, I personally wouldn't drop between 25m-40m on them.
I could kit out a lot of my jobs for that for more benefit.

EDIT: Also added a link to some excellent testing done in the thf forums on Evasion in the first post under the Evasion section. It's an excellent read.

Edited, Aug 8th 2008 11:31am by VeyronMick
#82 Aug 08 2008 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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Man.. no more complaints? I guess this is about ready to be stickied if nobody has anything else to add. I'll give it a look over and edit my post in a bit, but I don't think there was anything else I wanted to mention.
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#83 Aug 08 2008 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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the very (VERY) slight extra damage from sais aren't worth losing the def down from yoto+1. the +1 is fine though.

defenSe is spelled with an S, not a C =x

again, earth staff should also be mentioned for it's -20% phys dmg for endgame tanking.

Quote:
This staff can be used to give a bonus to the elemental magic X. Very useful when tanking with the elemental Ni wheel.


if you must leave it worded like that (instead of DDing with the ele wheel), then fine, but i hate you for it >:O

finally, many of the throwing items (bomb core, fire bomblet, tiphia sting, etc) are no longer throwable, and therefore do not have any D/delay
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#84 Aug 09 2008 at 3:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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ThePsychoticOne wrote:
defenSe is spelled with an S, not a C =x


Not in England! :P
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#85 Aug 09 2008 at 3:13 AM Rating: Good
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MithraDooom wrote:
ThePsychoticOne wrote:
defenSe is spelled with an S, not a C =x


Not in England! :P


oh?

well, that goes to show how americans don't know/care about the rest of the world.
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#86 Aug 09 2008 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
ThePsychoticOne wrote:
the very (VERY) slight extra damage from sais aren't worth losing the def down from yoto+1. the +1 is fine though.


Changed the comment on Sai to reflect this.


ThePsychoticOne wrote:

defenSe is spelled with an S, not a C =x


We spell the same as the brits, I'm not changing that one. Smiley: wink2


ThePsychoticOne wrote:

again, earth staff should also be mentioned for it's -20% phys dmg for endgame tanking.

if you must leave it worded like that (instead of DDing with the ele wheel), then fine, but i hate you for it >:O


I had changed the staves section to incorporate this already, for some reason it wasn't updated in the post, had to redo it. Alla does this from time to time.


ThePsychoticOne wrote:

finally, many of the throwing items (bomb core, fire bomblet, tiphia sting, etc) are no longer throw-able, and therefore do not have any D/delay


Updated that section to add that info.
#87 Aug 20 2008 at 8:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Level 75 - Koga Tekko (RareEx)(AF2) - [HST] [DD]
Def: 18 Ninja Tool Expertise (Nighttime: STR: 12 Haste: 4%)
Haste is only active at night as well. The only always active trait is save on tools.

These are to be used fulltime at night. It would be a good idea to make a night macro set with these and other items like vampire/fenrir's earring or koga kyahan. Ninja tool expertise works about 25-33% of the time.

You're missing AF+1 body. Thunder ring should be mentioned. Flame rings aren't "very expensive". Shadow ring, shadow mantle, bloodbead ring missing. It should be mentioned that shura legs aren't to be used once you attain byakkos (or any leg piece for that matter).
#88 Aug 20 2008 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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The +40 hp on koga legs is useful for a CB build or another max HP application.
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#89 Aug 20 2008 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Overburn wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
Level 39 - Fuma Kyahan
May only be beneficial for Utseumi recast, much more useful later on.

even with no other haste gear, these are still best dd feet.



Not really, with only 3% haste you're not going to be cutting down much of your actual swing timers to the point where it adds little to no actual DoT.


"To no" actual DOT? 3% haste will always increase your DOT. Is it huge? No, but neither is 4 attack or 3 dex or whatever...actually much bigger than those.

Seriously, what else does anyone recommend? The only thing I can see being comparable if you have no haste whatsoever would be Pahluwan or Denali feet.

Also OP, Kitsutsuki is a good Katana you overlooked.

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#90 Aug 22 2008 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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This is a nice guide. Great job.

There are several places you suggest swapping a piece of enmity gear in for Provoke. There are other reasons to swap in enmity gear such as warcry, elemental & enfeebling ninjutsu, and black magic spells and job abailities for /drk.

Some gear is great to swap in with Utsusemi but I didn't see that mentioned. I prefer to only swap slots which won't blink me so for example:
Evasion Torque
Swift Belt (haste) Scouter's rope (evasion)
Boxer's Mantle
Evasion Earring
Ethereal Earring
Wivre Ring x2 (I personally don't bother to use these to save inventory space)
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#91 Aug 23 2008 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
Added...
------------
Armour: AF+1 body, Thunder ring, Bloodbead ring
Weapons: Kitsutsuki
Comments: Added new section in the first post to recommend creating a specific build for night times. Also added section on Utsu gear swaps to the first post.


Updated comments on...
-------------------------------
Armour: Koga legs, Shura legs, Koga Tekko
Comments: Added situations that Enmity macro pieces should be used to the Enmity section in the first post. Cleaned up armour descriptions to mention using enmity swaps, rather then just for Provoke macros.


Thanks for peoples comments on these


fuzzyman wrote:
You're missing Shadow ring, shadow mantle


To be honest I've never seen anyone wearing these.
The proc rates are supposed to be bad to the point that there are better alternatives.
Can you elaborate why and when you would consider these.?

Edited, Aug 23rd 2008 8:51pm by VeyronMick
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#92 Aug 23 2008 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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VeyronMick, ****** Superhero wrote:

fuzzyman wrote:
You're missing Shadow ring, shadow mantle


To be honest I've never seen anyone wearing these.
The proc rates are supposed to be bad to the point that there are better alternatives.
Can you elaborate why and when you would consider these.?


the ring has a high proc rate (25% iirc? not sure exactly). the mantle isn't great (5% proc rate iirc?). mantle has it's uses, like when you don't need the extra enmity from cerb/hbm, or on darksday for vit+20.
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#93 Aug 23 2008 at 9:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Shadow ring goes without saying. On any HNM with magical aoe that byapasses utsusemi, it would be a good idea to full time it. Shadow mantle is the best shadows down piece. Even if it's only 5-10% proc rate, you can consider it as 5-10% -dmg. Because over time, that's what it averages to. Both very useful pieces for endgame tanking.
#94 Oct 14 2008 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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It's a very good guide, I have only 1 minor correction to add. You got the required Assault rank for the Perdu Blade incorrect. Should say Second Lieutenant, not Chief Sergeant
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#95 Oct 17 2008 at 4:39 AM Rating: Decent
Aluus wrote:
It's a very good guide, I have only 1 minor correction to add. You got the required Assault rank for the Perdu Blade incorrect. Should say Second Lieutenant, not Chief Sergeant


Hmm, I was already reminded of that but missed updating it.
Thanks for the reminder.

Edited, Oct 17th 2008 8:34am by VeyronMick
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#96 Nov 19 2008 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Level 73 - Shura Haidate (RareEx) - [DD]
Def: 30 HP: -35 STR: 5 Accuracy: 7
These are an excellent for both TP and WS. If you have Byakko's, these can be used in WS macro if you badly need the accuracy.


The 15dex on byakko's haidate gives you 7acc. Both pieces are equal accuracy wise. It's an argument of 5str, raising fSTR, or 15dex, raising crit %.

For WS, if you're using Blade: Jin, STR and DEX mods are equal. 15dex > 5 str. Seeing that it is crit based, I'd be hard pressed to use shura over byakko's.

For TP, the 5% haste puts byakko's over the top.

I think you should replace your comment with "These are excellent for both TP and WS, until Byakko's Haidate."

I'm of the mind that shura haidate should be left for the monks when they're using hundred fists.

Edited, Nov 19th 2008 1:40am by Renowaikk
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#97 Nov 21 2008 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Kensei Sitabaki
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DEF:29 DEX+5 VIT+5
Lv.69 MNK/NIN/SAM

worth a mention imo.
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#98 Jan 15 2009 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Been awhile since anyone posted in this but I thought I`d put in a recommendation (assuming no one has already made it) for lower level NINs. If they have it, a Dash Sash is a really good choice for a belt slot piece early in level. An enmity boost is really nice when there is nothing else to fit in that area that`s worthwhile until like the 40s.
#99 Jun 29 2009 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Lots of good information and discussion here, thanks for putting this together.
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