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Kick attacks (and possibly impetus?)Follow

#1 May 09 2011 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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* The following job traits and attributes will see their maximum level of effectiveness adjusted by equipment, magic, and/or job abilities.

Critical Hit Rate / Critical Hit Damage / Beast Killer / Plantoid Killer / Vermin Killer / Lizard Killer / Bird Killer / Amorph Killer / Aquan Killer / Undead Killer / Arcana Killer / Demon Killer / Dragon Killer / Fast Cast / Kick Attacks / Skillchain Bonus / Conserve MP / Magic Burst Bonus / Snap Shot / Recycle / Ninja Tool Expertise
#2 May 09 2011 at 11:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hmmmmmmmmm

First inclination is a crit nerf. Crit rate already caps at 95%, can't really adjust it anywhere but down. Crit damage bonus probably also toned down.

Kick attacks, dunno. Could go either way. KA has always sort of been the ******* step-child of the DA/TA crowd. Maybe someone wants to make another attempt at making Footwork relevant.

On the other hand, this means everything we know about their numbers gets thrown out the window. Time for more testing.....
#3 May 09 2011 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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Additionally, in regards to the note about "certain job traits will see their maximum level of effectiveness adjusted by equipment, magic, and/or job abilities" have no fear as no negative adjustments will be taking place. Instead the limits on these will be increased, making players even stronger.

From the forums by one of the team members. So nothing negative will come of this as far as what they are promising us.
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#4 May 09 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I'll jump on kick attack testing whenever servers come up. I am already stationed at a fortification for Set Bonus testing, and will just drop all my KA+ ****, and try to get an early number. I expect KA rate to go up honestly, as while other set bonuses proc approx. 5% of all attacks, Monk's bonus ends up being around 3-3.5% since it's based off KAs and not all rounds. Also KAs are gimper than DA and TA since they can only proc once per round(Twice with Set Bonus), and can't proc on things like WSs.
#5lynnminmay, Posted: May 10 2011 at 9:20 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Except they are done with a lot more damage so they they are not gimper. Which makes me theink so this :
#6 May 11 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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Also KAs are gimper than DA and TA since they can only proc once per round(Twice with Set Bonus), and can't proc on things like WSs.


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Except they are done with a lot more damage so they they are not gimper.


^^ Completely off-topic argument from the original post. I think it would be a good discussion for a different thread, however you may need to define "gimper" before including parse data.

As for the subject at hand - "maximum level of effectiveneess" refers to what we call "cap" ... right? If so, and if they are saying it's NOT a nerf, then pretty much what they are saying is that gear/magic/JA's will allow you to exceed the 95% cap.

Otherwise, "maximum level of effectiveness" does not refer to cap, and just something else. Either way, can we get a REAL English translator please?
#7 May 12 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kinematics wrote:
First inclination is a crit nerf.


So, it appears it's actually an improvement. Easily noticeable on PUP with Stringing Pummel. Still not sure exactly what the change is, but it's pretty clear there hasn't been a crit nerf.

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Kick attacks, dunno. Could go either way. KA has always sort of been the ******* step-child of the DA/TA crowd. Maybe someone wants to make another attempt at making Footwork relevant.


Hmm... wonder if it's worth messing around with Footwork + KA (and DA/TA) gear. I guess a kick focused build would load up on KA, Double/Triple Attack, and Haste? Something like:

Weapon: ??? (Magian OAT weapon I guess is best?)
Ammo: Tantra
Head: Tantra
Neck: Tantra Necklace (KA+2)
Ear1: Brutal Earring (DA+5%)
Ear2: Tantra Earring (KA+1)
Body: ??? (Choices look like Juogi for DA+3%, Loki's for Crit DMG+, or Tantra+2 for set bonus)
Hands: Tantra
Ring1: Epona's (DA+3%, TA+3%)
Ring2: Rajas
Back: Atheling (DA+2%)
Waist: Black Belt (for Haste), Twilight Belt (DA+2%), or Brown Belt (Haste)
Legs: Tantra Hose +1/+2 (KA+5~6)
Feet: Tantra Gaiters +1/+2 (Kick DMG:40~45, Enhance Footwork attack bonus)

Kick Attacks II trait (KA+10%)
5/5 KA merits (KA+5)
/WAR sub (DA+10%)
Tantra +2 set bonus: Augments KA

Which would mean a maximum of KA+24% with the best gear and full merits. You could still cap haste with various combinations of BB, Tantra +1/+2 legs (a must for a KA build), and Tantra +1/+2 head/hands, or even have a reasonable amount of haste using Brown/Twilight belts.
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#8lynnminmay, Posted: May 12 2011 at 4:47 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I hardly break 400 damage with impetus, and I saw some 330 without.
#9 May 12 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Looking at the patch note again, I think there's some things that need testing.

"maximum level of effectiveness adjusted"

How could that apply to kicks? Need to know:

If base damage value for KAs have changed (should be unweaponed H2H value)

If base damage value for KAs during Footwork have changed (should be unweaponed H2H value + 18)

Check additional damage from various known kick shoes to see if any of those changed.

Base KA rate (preferably without merits)

Base KA rate during Footwork

KA rate with current known +KA gear to see if scaling changed (is +5 KA still +5%?)

KA rate during Footwork with current known +KA gear


I don't actually expect any of the above values to change from what we're used to, but the fact that we have no idea *what* changed means we need to get stuff tested from the ground up to make sure nothing was missed.

The easiest to test will be Footwork base damage, followed by kick shoe damage.

Base KA damage without Footwork can be done simultaneously with base KA rate using the revised Extra Attacks tab in KParser (detailed listing includes the damage for each attack of that round, which can be moved to Excel for analysis).

There doesn't appear to be any point in raising a 'cap' on kick rates since we can't get very much to begin with, given that almost all +KA rate gear is legs, with a few points in neck/earring/weapon. From what I can see, max possible +KA rate would be +13 (Tantra+2 legs, Tantra neck, Tantra earring, Afflictors).

After that, look into the Tantra set augment.

Edited, May 12th 2011 6:01pm by Kinematics
#10 May 14 2011 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Well I did do some basic testing using both no shoes, and af3+1 feet with 377 H2H skill. 44+8+3+18 = 73DMG without shoes and 73+40 = 113DMG with shoes. I got the expected damage range that you would get if these were counted as 1hand weapons.

Now I would like to see about the Kick attack rate, or more to the point see if we can now kick more than twice in a round. But I only have the OAT weapon so can't see if I will get more than 2 kicks in a round.
#11 May 15 2011 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
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crit dmg cap 100%

This change atma at all?
#12lynnminmay, Posted: May 16 2011 at 8:12 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Apoc, RR and SS beat Apoc RR an GH by 6%
#13 May 16 2011 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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Problem is, GH has some huge defensive boosts that more than out-wiegh the extra HP of SS. If your in one of these groups with multiple emph's that just burn down everything in seconds for more emph upgrade items then i'd use SS over GH.
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#14 May 18 2011 at 1:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Apoc, RR and SS beat Apoc RR an GH by 6%

Does that include 10% less counters?

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Problem is, GH has some huge defensive boosts that more than out-wiegh the extra HP of SS.

Arguable I think. Definitely situational. The evasion boost from the agility doesn't really make a difference for most NMs. 10% counter will obviously see a much higher benefit on certain NMs (especially Chloris) but still be useless on Ironclads.

And no. I'm not forgetting about the subtle blow from agility. Did you ever find out how beneficial that was Sand?
#15lynnminmay, Posted: May 18 2011 at 6:02 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Counter is a neglieabl epart of your damage and that would be 10% more damage on this so that won't change anything.
#16 May 18 2011 at 9:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Counter damage is typically between 2% and 5% of your total damage (not counting mobs that are immune to counter, or who almost never melee between spellcasting and TP moves). An extra 10% counter rate may increase your counter damage by perhaps 15%, so total damage gained would be around 0.3% to 0.75%.

Defensively, worst case where the evasion is actually beneficial (ie: it takes you above evasion floor) would be raising evasion rate from 5% to 17.5% (12.5% hit rate for 25 evasion for 50 agi). Adding in an approximation of raising counter rate from 60% to 70%, we can see before and after:

Before (ignoring utsusemi): 5% evasion, 60% counter. Out of 100 swings the mob makes, 95 get past evasion, and then 38 get past counter. So base comparison is 38% of all attacks land.

After: 17.5% evasion, 70% counter. Out of 100 swings the mob makes, 82.5 get past evasion, and then 24.75 get past counter.

Overall melee damage reduced by about 35%.

If you actually had a positive amount of evasion to start with (say, 25%), number of landed hits would go from 30 to 18.75, or a 37.5% reduction. Not much of an increase. And by the way, I'd say that for most NMs that actually melee, the evasion is likely to be at least somewhat useful for mnk. We're not thf/dnc/nin evasive, but we can still avoid a fair bit, and aren't just a war-like punching bag.

If the mob is accurate enough to still hit you for capped accuracy, then only the counter matters. In that case it would reduce your melee damage taken by 25%.

In addition it can reduce TP given to the mob by 25% (well, 25% of the amount it would get at dAgi=0; dAgi is probably already positive, though, so the percentage reduction could be as high as 33%, but may also drop down to maybe 20% if you're pushing into the cap with cruor buffs).

So for mobs without regain it can reduce melee damage taken by 25%-35%, and can reduce the number of TP moves (and thus damage taken from TP moves) by 25%-33% as well. Overall rough number would be that it reduces your total damage taken by about 25%-30%, which is pretty substantial.


In general, however, the mobs that are actually a threat are those that spam spells and TP moves (lots of regain), for which evasion and counter are generally useless. In that case, the extra HP of SS is actually a better survival buff, and you get a bit more damage out of it anyway.

#17 May 19 2011 at 5:51 AM Rating: Decent
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No, but as a whole things seem to go alot easier on nin for example solo-ing using the GH atma.

On the tougher mobs, If I use RR/MC (the 2 required) and Apoc the fights just get a little messier. When I take out Apoc for GH fights are just smoother (ofc the counter means im at 25% with Yonin/GH and the 25EVA from atma help with the eva already got from Katana/neck/feet). Obviously whatever affect AGL has on reducing mob TP gain (im betting it stacks more with the inhibit TP gain affects of Pennance and Yurin) as they are calculated either before or after Subtle blow. Whatever the affect of AGL is, its probably safe to say that GH caps it like the DEX on RR caps base crit rate.

I guess for Party work SS/RR/Apoc unless limiting TP moves is a complete must.


Anyone have any suggestions on testing this?

Edited, May 19th 2011 7:56am by Sandmasterr
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#18 May 22 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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On the tougher mobs, If I use RR/MC (the 2 required) and Apoc the fights just get a little messier. When I take out Apoc for GH fights are just smoother (ofc the counter means im at 25% with Yonin/GH and the 25EVA from atma help with the eva already got from Katana/neck/feet).

If only monks could use Yonin and wield katanas. That would be sweet! =P


Quote:
Before (ignoring utsusemi): 5% evasion, 60% counter. Out of 100 swings the mob makes, 95 get past evasion, and then 38 get past counter. So base comparison is 38% of all attacks land.

After: 17.5% evasion, 70% counter. Out of 100 swings the mob makes, 82.5 get past evasion, and then 24.75 get past counter.

Overall melee damage reduced by about 35%.

95% hit cap... so techncially that final number is about 32.3%

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Overall rough number would be that it reduces your total damage taken by about 25%-30%, which is pretty substantial.

For typical mobs that don't cast any spells at all, I would agree with this "rough number." Otherwise it would be better to say that it reduces your total PHYSICAL damage taken by 25-30%...

Quote:
In general, however, the mobs that are actually a threat are those that spam spells and TP moves (lots of regain), for which evasion and counter are generally useless. In that case, the extra HP of SS is actually a better survival buff, and you get a bit more damage out of it anyway.

Yes! One of the biggest detriments to survivability is a strong, uninterrupted spell immediately followed by a strong TP move. How many tank deaths are from plain melee hits?
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