Epona's on WSsFollow

On top of my head I'd think it wouldn't do any good on Asuran Fists because of the maximum round hits. I'm not too good with math stuff but I use it full time other than that.

Dustin, your numbers don't really make much sense.

Accuracy has no relevance on the value of DA/TA. They are independant variables.

Not sure how you're getting 35% DA. As mnk (given this forum), you're only going to hit 15% if /war, 20% if you using VV atma (generally a weaker atma choice for us). Maybe you're considering dnc's Saber Dance.

If you're including other jobs, then on the TA side you have to consider that thf can hit over 30% (trait + merits + atma + Raider+2 head + Triplus Dagger, maybe an extra 1% from Raider Earring).

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the 'extra hits' numbers you listed (especially if you factored acc into them, which is incorrect methodology).

However, a few quick checks indicate that Epona's is worth about:

Mnk: 2.7% (Smite, /nin) to 2.5% (Smite, /war)
Pup: 2.1% (Pummel, /nin) to 1.9% (Pummel, /war)
Thf: 1.6% (Evis, /nin) to 1.5% (Evis, /war)

And in general, values under 2% can probably be matched by other rings (Strigoi, etc). Weaponskills of 5 hits or less are worth using Epona's for, and 6-hits can be a wash depending on job. 8-hit weaponskills (ie: Asuran) will never benefit from DA/TA in any way whatsoever.

Why would you use twilight for ANYTHING on mnk? It doesn't win anywhere.



Because acc has 0 to do with DA/TA.


Let's say I hit for 1 dmg/hit and swing 100 times.

100 dmg.


Now let's say I hit for 1 dmg/hit and swing 100 times w/ 10% DA. 110 hits total

110 dmg.


110/100 = 10% increase.


Now let's say I only have 50% acc in both scenarios. I hit half as much, do half the amount of damage.

50 dmg vs 55 dmg.

55/50 = 10% increase.

No matter what your hitrate is, you get the same relative increases to your damage, which is why looking at acc is 100% irrelevant when looking at increases from da/ta

Edited, Apr 5th 2011 6:58pm by Veggeto

My mistake on Aethling; forgot about that (though it was included in my comparison percentages). Didn't consider Twilight for mnk. Those two together could put you at 20% in gear, 25% with VV atma (still 5% shy of your 35%, even with the incorrect VV amount). I specifically excluded Epona's from the base amount because Epona's is the gear piece in question, so trying to express its value in TA/DA when you've already added that amount to your total misrepresents what you're trying to compare.



You're conflating the terms in your argument, including your explanation of how you're using them.

If you swing 100 times and add 10% DA, you swing 110 times.
If you hit 100 times and add 10% DA, you hit 110 times.

To hit 100 times with 95% acc means you swung 105.263 times; add 10% DA and you swing 115.789 times; re-apply accuracy and you hit 110 times.

In your quote above, however, you say you 'hit' 100 times, then add 10% DA and gain an extra 9.5 hits because of accuracy. This is wrong. A swing and a hit are indeed different, but you don't seem to actually understand that difference.

Despite the offense you took at it, Veggeto's explanation of the matter is exactly correct. If you add 10% DA that means you swing 10% more often, and by swinging 10% more often you hit 10% more often no matter what your accuracy is. 95%, 88%, 79%, 50%, doesn't matter; it's all the same. Therefore accuracy is irrelevant in a comparison of the value of DA/TA, except insofar as your accuracy itself may change due to the different gear choices (eg: Sniper Ring vs Epona's when below the acc cap).



Also, our conclusions are not quite identical. Aside from thf, there is no particular benefit in using most other rings in place of Epona even at the 6-hit level. Therefore it's worthwhile (ie: you won't do worse to any notable degree with Epona's than you would with any other ring choice) to use Epona's on any weaponskill for anyone aside from mnk using Asuran, or a high triple attack thf. (Also possible: Dnc using Saber Dance; but then you need to account for its decay rate to determine the overall value, and I don't feel like working that out right now.)

And as a side note, your explanation for Asuran (8-hit) not benefiting from Epona's appears (from the way you wrote it) to make incorrect assumptions about how DA/TA hits interract with base number of swings. You get a max of 8 swings per round. Asuran is an 8 swing weaponskill. Therefore no DA/TA will *ever* apply to Asuran, even if you miss some of those 8 swings.

Aside to the side note: since you edited your original post, some of these comments may not make sense to anyone reading this after the fact.



Edited, Apr 5th 2011 7:25pm by Kinematics

Double Attack: On multi-hit weapon skills, Double Attack can process on any hit of the weapon skill. Note, however, that Double Attack cannot process to induce a weapon skill to attempt to hit more than 8 times.


Triple Attack: On multi-hit weapon skills, (using Dual Wield) Triple Attack can occur twice (once on first hit and again on off hand hit).


Question:

These are both from the wiki. It says it wont attempt to hit more then 8 times fine i get that, so it will never fire on an 8 hit ws. (Thx kinematics for clarifying that)

For a 6 hit ws though, DA could fire on any of the 6 but as soon as its fired 2x, it wont attempt to fire for the remainder even if they miss and you only land say 5 hits (da da single)?

For TA on a 6 hit ws, it can only fire on hit 1 or 2, and once it fires it wont fire again correct?

I am trying to work on my calculations and I just want to make sure I have this correct.

Its eight attempts, not 8 landed hits.

DW kraken and anything else (octave, ridill, etc.) Hit or miss, you'll never swing more than 8 times between the two in a single round.

Which on a 6 hit ws if DA fired 2 times, thats 8 attempted hits... not sure what your trying to correct...





Edit*
Thanks kine for clearing that up

Edited, Apr 6th 2011 11:16pm by dustinfoley

I was half asleep and thought you asked something completely different, lol.

Evis: 5 hit, 1 offhand, 1.0 fTP

Base fTP: 6.0 + .1 (gorget)

TA: 10% trait/merits, 15% Apoc atma, 3% Triplus Dagger = 28%
DA: 5% Brutal + 3% Atheling = 8%

avg ftp: 6.1 + .28*2 + .72*.08 = 6.7176

Add Epona's

avg fTP: 6.1 + .31*2 + .69*.11 = 6.7959

6.7959 / 6.7176 = 1.17% increase


Leaving off Apoc atma and Triplus dagger:

6.1 + .1*2 + .9*.08 = 6.372
vs
6.1 + .13*2 + .87*.11 = 6.4557

6.4557 / 6.372 = 1.3%

Both of which are actually lower than my earlier quick estimate, so I may need to take another look at this.

In any case, your math is notably off in both calculations. You're giving 2x value for DAs when they should be 1x (1 additional hit; TA gets 2x for 2 additional hits). Even then, total for the case without Epona's should be 6.444 if you gave DAs 2x value, not the 6.644 you ended up with. Similar issue with the calculations with Epona's.

Ack, nope, you're right. I've really been slipping the last few posts, haven't I?

Baseline (no Apoc atma, no Triplus):

No Epona: 6.0 + 0.1 + 2 * (0.1*2 + 0.08*0.9) = 6.644
Epona: 6.0 + 0.1 + 2 * (0.13*2 + 0.11*0.87) = 6.8114

Gain: 6.8114 / 6.644 = 2.5%

So, yes, you're correct on the raw percentage increase. But also yes, you're missing how much is lost from 8+ hit overflow.

The total number of hits across all hit distributions (but not full combinatorials) is 1850 with an 8 hit cap, and 1920 with no cap. Average number of hits (including combinatorials, but no Epona's) with an 8 hit cap is 6.45; average number with no cap is 6.49.

With an 8 hit cap there's a ~1.94% increase with Epona's; with no cap there's a ~2.26% increase in overall damage.

There's some extra lossiness that I'm apparently missing or forgetting (don't have time for a thorough examination right now). Add Apoc atma and the gain with Epona's drops to 1.5% with an 8 hit cap, while it would be 2.0% with no cap.

Based on parsed data (not my own), I'm pretty sure I remember the margin of error to be sufficiently small that you could conclusively (95%) say that TA proc'd before DA for melee. I don't have any reason to expect that it would be in a different order on weaponskills, however if there's real counterevidence to the TA>DA order, I'd love to see it.

Ok results of the above test

Melee Data 
 
Player               # Melee Attacks    # Melee Rounds    Attacks/Round    # Extra Attacks 
Pimpchan                       11474              8819                1               2655 
 
Player               # +1 Rounds   # +2 Rounds   # +3 Rounds   # +4 Rounds    # >+4 Rounds 
Pimpchan                    1180           733             0             1               1 
 
Player               # MultiAttack Rounds    MultiAttack %     Kills w/Min Attacks    Kills w/<Min Attacks 
Pimpchan                             1915          21,71 %                       0                       0 
 
 
Treat As: 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (2x/3x): 
 
Player               # Double Attacks    DA Rate    Perc. DA     # Triple Attacks    TA Rate    Perc. TA 
Pimpchan                         1180    13,38 %     61,68 %                  733     8,31 %     38,32 % 
 
Multi-attacks per round (Kicks): 
 
Player               Footwork?    # Rounds w/Kicks    Kick Attack Rate 
Pimpchan                   Yes                1180             14,60 % 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (Zanshin): 
 
Player               # Missed First Attacks    # DA w/Missed First   Possible Zanshin % 
Pimpchan                               7043                    947              13,45 % 
 
Player               Acc. Rate of First Attacks    Acc. Rate of Second Attacks 
Pimpchan                                20,14 %                        18,69 % 
 
 
 

margins of error :

TA rate= 8.31% +/- 0.57%
DA rate= 13.38% +/- 0.71%
multi-attack%=21.71% +/- 0.86%

At best TA rate is 8.88% so this excludes TA being checked first
At best DA rate is 14.09% so this excludes DA being checked first
At best multi attack rate is 22.57% so this excludes both models alltogether

The only explanation I have found so far is that if DA and TA "proc" at the same time, none of them appears. With this model :

DA rate = 0.15*(1-0.10) = 13.5% lies within the above confident interval
TA rate = 0.10*(1-0.15) = 8.5% lies within the above CI
multiattack rate : 0.15*(1-0.10) + 0.10*(1-0.15)= 22% lies within the CI


You heard it here first : 100% TA rate and 100% DA rate means 0% multiattack rate. Suck less SE.


[for reference, my thf gear was : signet staff, lamiabane, turban, rapparee, dusk gloves +1, morgana's choker, brutal, novia, hoard ring, toreador, acerbic sash, skadi's chaussee, wood F ledelsens, total STR = 62 ]

Edited, May 1st 2011 9:46am by lynnminmay

Edited, May 1st 2011 10:23am by lynnminmay

Moar data. I added pole grip to the previous gear, which puts me at 17% DA and 10% TA

Melee Data 
 
Player               # Melee Attacks    # Melee Rounds    Attacks/Round    # Extra Attacks 
Pimpchan                       11435              8672                1               2763 
 
Player               # +1 Rounds   # +2 Rounds   # +3 Rounds   # +4 Rounds    # >+4 Rounds 
Pimpchan                    1355           697             3             0               1 
 
Player               # MultiAttack Rounds    MultiAttack %     Kills w/Min Attacks    Kills w/<Min Attacks 
Pimpchan                             2056          23,71 %                       0                       0 
 
 
Treat As: 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (2x/3x): 
 
Player               # Double Attacks    DA Rate    Perc. DA     # Triple Attacks    TA Rate    Perc. TA 
Pimpchan                         1355    15,63 %     66,03 %                  697     8,04 %     33,97 % 
 
Multi-attacks per round (Kicks): 
 
Player               Footwork?    # Rounds w/Kicks    Kick Attack Rate 
Pimpchan                   Yes                1355             17,00 % 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (Zanshin): 
 
Player               # Missed First Attacks    # DA w/Missed First   Possible Zanshin % 
Pimpchan                               6915                   1094              15,82 % 
 
Player               Acc. Rate of First Attacks    Acc. Rate of Second Attacks 
Pimpchan                                20,26 %                        17,00 % 
 
 
 

This completely confirms what is happening

expected rate if TA is checked first (*)
TA : 10%
DA : (1-0.10)*1.17=15.3%
expected rate if DA is checked first (**)
DA : 17%
TA : (1-0.17)*1.10=8.3%

Observed rates (with confident interval)
TA : 8.04% +/- 0.57%
DA : 15.62% +/- 0.76%


The observed TA rate excludes (*) by a large margin (~1.5% difference at least)
The observed DA rate excludes (**) by a decent margin (~0.6% difference at least)
Obviously the expected rates are the DA rate from (*) and the TA rate from (**) respectively which confirms what I concluded in the previous post, as in : when the game rolls a DA and a TA, none occur. Problem.


Note 1 : the above confident intervals are done at 95% likelyood.
Note 2 : My MONK/WAR with atheling/epona/brutal and apocalypse has 21% DA and 18% which means that I'm only getting 17.2% actual DArate and 14.22% TA rate. If I was single wielding my signet staff it's a drop of my avergae #hits/per round of about -3.3% compared to the previous model.



Edited, May 2nd 2011 11:24am by lynnminmay

1) From what I remember, 61-62 str for the ones near the entrance; might be able to go up to 65 str for the ones at the back of the southern area, and possibly a few points higher with the ones in the northern area.

Edit: Found it -- post here, with max str for the various level hpemdes. 66 is max for the highest level mobs.

2) I'd guess 200-210 minimum, but would suggest 240 or higher if possible.

3) No idea.

34%: interesting prediction. 24% * (1-20%) + 20% * (1-24%) = 34.4%, using the xor calculations. Given this new understanding, that would imply that Saber Dance is explicitly different from DA, and suffers from the same problem where (effectively) if both proc at the same time, you get the benefit of neither.

Edited, May 2nd 2011 2:34pm by Kinematics

If it progresses in the expected 25%/20%/15% over 3 minutes..


10% DA from /war == 30% / 26% / 22%
Overall average: 26%

15% DA from /war + Brutal == 32.5% / 29% / 25.5%
Overall average: 29%

20% DA from /war + Brutal + Atheling + Twilight == 35% / 32% / 29%
Overall average: 32%

Gaining 3% avg DA for every 5% added in gear.

Avg if DA+SD-10%:
10%DA: 20% (if xor, expect parse to be 6% higher)
15%DA: 25% (if xor, expect parse to be 4% higher)
20%DA: 30% (if xor, expect parse to be 2% higher)



You'll need at least -15 str if you're hume dnc/war.

Acerbic Sash: -7
Hoard Ring: -4
Nemus Bazubands: -4
^- for base (need to take off Twilight; use Pole Grip for +2 DA instead)
Nemus Nails: -3
Snow Ring: -2
^- to compensate for Aurore body str, if used

A more complete str list is linked to in my post above (edited in, you may have missed it). The highest level om'hpemdes allow up to 66 str for your testing needs.

Since you're taru, then 80 str with merits would need just -14 str, which is doable with Acerbic+Hoard+Malflame; so, you shouldn't need to drop any merits, though by dropping 3 merits you add 2 more levels of mob you can work on.

That's only for the ul's, which only go up to lvl 72. The om's go up to 77. See this post.

DA > 66% isn't possible. TA > 33% is.

All values of either will mess with the value of the other, with higher values causing progressively greater devaluation of the other stat. I've already worked out that TA > 20% means that Raider's Earring (1% TA) beats Brutal Earring (5% DA) for any reasonable amounts of DA (anything up to ~20%).

There is no solid rule of thumb yet for the preference in relative values. We still need to compare a lot of different scenarios to see the relative impacts of each stat in gear choices.

Any job could sit at a 35% Triple Attack rate with proper atma support: Atma of the Apocalypse for 15%, Atma of the Lion and Atma of Alpha and Omega for 10% each. Don't why you'd ever want to do that, but it is possible if not feasible.

62 str works on the hpende that roam in the crag entrance areas.

A big part of this is due to the fact that the base attack per round is a lot bigger than 1, though, and not ompletely to the new findings.

For instance with apoc, epona, atheling as base, sub ninja :

previous model :
base attacks/round : 1+1*0.06+2*0.18*(1-0.06)=1.3984
with brutal earring : 1.4304

=> net gain = +2.28%

Current model :
base : 1+1*0.06*(1-0.18)+2*0.18*(1-0.06)=1.3876
with brutal : 1.4106

=> net gain : +1.66%

Also we have to keep in mind that the global dps is not a function of the average round/sec




Edited, May 3rd 2011 1:21pm by lynnminmay

Not sure what happened there, but I'm thinking you need a baseline value first. That is, dnc/nin with no DA gear at all, running the SD script overnight, so you know what to expect from the script's performance. Then do another run to see the impact of adding the DA gear.

Possible explanation : it doesn't overwrite itself (lol useless merits ?), it works like umpetus and you need to hit the target, if so, I'll suggest using D1 daggers or lady bell. It could be that it is just an oat that only procs if the hit lands and doesn't double attck (this would be easy to check with no DA and a few hits).

Actually, that's an interesting idea, and you can check if, in fact, your DA rate is decaying continually, and reuse of Saber Dance doesn't reset the DA values, with your existing parse.

What you can do is run a Split on the parse in 1 minute chunks, and look at the DA rate within that period. While there's liable to be chopped results due to attack rounds crossing over 1 minute boundaries, you should at least be able to see if there's any general trends.

If you want to get really fancy, you can use the details section of the Extra Attacks tab to pick out more precise time values to split on so that you don't have attacks overlapping selected boundaries. Realize that to include all attacks for one multiattack round you should set the split to end immediately before the next round begins, as the attacks that are grouped into each round will be spread out over a period of time.

If the DA rate progresses in sets of high/medium/low/high/medium/low, then SD properly overwrites and resets itself. If it progresses as high/medium/low/low/low/low, then the decay is based on the initial start time of the JA, and may explain the long-term results you're seeing (24% overall with 22% in gear/traits, where the vast majority of the parse got no DA boost).



Edited, May 4th 2011 11:13am by Kinematics

Revision to above suggestion: Just use the Extra Attacks details listing and do a manual count per minute range. It'd be faster and easier.