Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3
Reply To Thread

Epona's on WSsFollow

#1 Apr 04 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
Trying to find some data on Epona's vs other ring options for WSs. Interested in any of the tops WSs on any of Epona's jobs, but any info on any WSs would be appreciated. Thanks!
#2 Apr 04 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
264 posts
On top of my head I'd think it wouldn't do any good on Asuran Fists because of the maximum round hits. I'm not too good with math stuff but I use it full time other than that.
____________________________
Crasy of Alexander, Member of SplatRangers

Monk. Need I say more?

#3dustinfoley, Posted: Apr 05 2011 at 8:56 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ACC caps at 95%
#4 Apr 05 2011 at 10:54 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Dustin, your numbers don't really make much sense.

Accuracy has no relevance on the value of DA/TA. They are independant variables.

Not sure how you're getting 35% DA. As mnk (given this forum), you're only going to hit 15% if /war, 20% if you using VV atma (generally a weaker atma choice for us). Maybe you're considering dnc's Saber Dance.

If you're including other jobs, then on the TA side you have to consider that thf can hit over 30% (trait + merits + atma + Raider+2 head + Triplus Dagger, maybe an extra 1% from Raider Earring).

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the 'extra hits' numbers you listed (especially if you factored acc into them, which is incorrect methodology).

However, a few quick checks indicate that Epona's is worth about:

Mnk: 2.7% (Smite, /nin) to 2.5% (Smite, /war)
Pup: 2.1% (Pummel, /nin) to 1.9% (Pummel, /war)
Thf: 1.6% (Evis, /nin) to 1.5% (Evis, /war)

And in general, values under 2% can probably be matched by other rings (Strigoi, etc). Weaponskills of 5 hits or less are worth using Epona's for, and 6-hits can be a wash depending on job. 8-hit weaponskills (ie: Asuran) will never benefit from DA/TA in any way whatsoever.
#5 Apr 05 2011 at 1:49 PM Rating: Default
***
1,237 posts
I am not sure how you are only get 15%/20% for mnk, i guess you have BB and dont use atheling?

10 from /war
5 from vv( I thought it was 10, so part of my error))
then 2% from belt, 3% from mantle, 5% from brutal, 3% from epona

Which is 28%, (33% with my bad on the VV)

I wasn't aware that TA/DA could only fire 2x per ws max, I was calculating the odds of it firing on any hit, then multipling by the acc to get adjusted avg values. So yeah my numbers are gonna be way off lol. I just assumed that it could fire on any of the 4 hits, not just the first 2, and I guess it make sense that if TA fires, DA cant.

I am not sure why you wouldnt count acc, do DA/TA have 100% acc or something?

Quote:
Weaponskills of 5 hits or less are worth using Epona's for, and 6-hits can be a wash depending on job. 8-hit weaponskills (ie: Asuran) will never benefit from DA/TA in any way whatsoever.


Quote:
you only benefit on 4 (Victory smite) and 5 hit ws from equiping epona.


although our conclusions are identical ...
#6 Apr 05 2011 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,423 posts
Why would you use twilight for ANYTHING on mnk? It doesn't win anywhere.

Quote:
I am not sure why you wouldnt count acc, do DA/TA have 100% acc or something?


Because acc has 0 to do with DA/TA.


Let's say I hit for 1 dmg/hit and swing 100 times.

100 dmg.


Now let's say I hit for 1 dmg/hit and swing 100 times w/ 10% DA. 110 hits total

110 dmg.


110/100 = 10% increase.


Now let's say I only have 50% acc in both scenarios. I hit half as much, do half the amount of damage.

50 dmg vs 55 dmg.

55/50 = 10% increase.

No matter what your hitrate is, you get the same relative increases to your damage, which is why looking at acc is 100% irrelevant when looking at increases from da/ta

Edited, Apr 5th 2011 6:58pm by Veggeto
#7dustinfoley, Posted: Apr 05 2011 at 5:23 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Besides being a dick you missed the point veg.
#8 Apr 05 2011 at 6:22 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
My mistake on Aethling; forgot about that (though it was included in my comparison percentages). Didn't consider Twilight for mnk. Those two together could put you at 20% in gear, 25% with VV atma (still 5% shy of your 35%, even with the incorrect VV amount). I specifically excluded Epona's from the base amount because Epona's is the gear piece in question, so trying to express its value in TA/DA when you've already added that amount to your total misrepresents what you're trying to compare.

Quote:
I assumed that if you hit 100 times, with 10% DA, thats 10 extra swings which also had a 95% chance to hit aka 9.5 extra hits. I wasn't aware a DA swing had 100% acc since i can find no evidence for that anywhere.

See the difference between a swing and a hit?


You're conflating the terms in your argument, including your explanation of how you're using them.

If you swing 100 times and add 10% DA, you swing 110 times.
If you hit 100 times and add 10% DA, you hit 110 times.

To hit 100 times with 95% acc means you swung 105.263 times; add 10% DA and you swing 115.789 times; re-apply accuracy and you hit 110 times.

In your quote above, however, you say you 'hit' 100 times, then add 10% DA and gain an extra 9.5 hits because of accuracy. This is wrong. A swing and a hit are indeed different, but you don't seem to actually understand that difference.

Despite the offense you took at it, Veggeto's explanation of the matter is exactly correct. If you add 10% DA that means you swing 10% more often, and by swinging 10% more often you hit 10% more often no matter what your accuracy is. 95%, 88%, 79%, 50%, doesn't matter; it's all the same. Therefore accuracy is irrelevant in a comparison of the value of DA/TA, except insofar as your accuracy itself may change due to the different gear choices (eg: Sniper Ring vs Epona's when below the acc cap).



Also, our conclusions are not quite identical. Aside from thf, there is no particular benefit in using most other rings in place of Epona even at the 6-hit level. Therefore it's worthwhile (ie: you won't do worse to any notable degree with Epona's than you would with any other ring choice) to use Epona's on any weaponskill for anyone aside from mnk using Asuran, or a high triple attack thf. (Also possible: Dnc using Saber Dance; but then you need to account for its decay rate to determine the overall value, and I don't feel like working that out right now.)

And as a side note, your explanation for Asuran (8-hit) not benefiting from Epona's appears (from the way you wrote it) to make incorrect assumptions about how DA/TA hits interract with base number of swings. You get a max of 8 swings per round. Asuran is an 8 swing weaponskill. Therefore no DA/TA will *ever* apply to Asuran, even if you miss some of those 8 swings.

Aside to the side note: since you edited your original post, some of these comments may not make sense to anyone reading this after the fact.



Edited, Apr 5th 2011 7:25pm by Kinematics
#9dustinfoley, Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 12:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So the correct and polite answer would have been.
#10 Apr 06 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,237 posts
Double Attack: On multi-hit weapon skills, Double Attack can process on any hit of the weapon skill. Note, however, that Double Attack cannot process to induce a weapon skill to attempt to hit more than 8 times.


Triple Attack: On multi-hit weapon skills, (using Dual Wield) Triple Attack can occur twice (once on first hit and again on off hand hit).


Question:

These are both from the wiki. It says it wont attempt to hit more then 8 times fine i get that, so it will never fire on an 8 hit ws. (Thx kinematics for clarifying that)

For a 6 hit ws though, DA could fire on any of the 6 but as soon as its fired 2x, it wont attempt to fire for the remainder even if they miss and you only land say 5 hits (da da single)?

For TA on a 6 hit ws, it can only fire on hit 1 or 2, and once it fires it wont fire again correct?

I am trying to work on my calculations and I just want to make sure I have this correct.
#11 Apr 06 2011 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,423 posts
Quote:
who at least take the time to explain my mistakes/misconceptions to me.

Quote:

Because acc has 0 to do with DA/TA.


Let's say I hit for 1 dmg/hit and swing 100 times.

100 dmg.


Now let's say I hit for 1 dmg/hit and swing 100 times w/ 10% DA. 110 hits total

110 dmg.


110/100 = 10% increase.


Now let's say I only have 50% acc in both scenarios. I hit half as much, do half the amount of damage.

50 dmg vs 55 dmg.

55/50 = 10% increase.

No matter what your hitrate is, you get the same relative increases to your damage, which is why looking at acc is 100% irrelevant when looking at increases from da/ta


Yea, I didn't explain anything here.

and as a matter of fact, I don't even recall saying anything to be a dick here. I asked you why you would use a twilight belt, since you were counting it for DA.

That was a serious question (one that you haven't answered yet).


Also, who gets mad over an internet forum, especially a simple question, I wasn't even openly flaming you or anything.

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/105/129/original/1299855073171.gif?1299857687
#12 Apr 06 2011 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,423 posts
Quote:
For a 6 hit ws though, DA could fire on any of the 6 but as soon as its fired 2x, it wont attempt to fire for the remainder even if they miss and you only land say 5 hits (da da single)?


Its eight attempts, not 8 landed hits.

DW kraken and anything else (octave, ridill, etc.) Hit or miss, you'll never swing more than 8 times between the two in a single round.
#13 Apr 06 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Quote:
So the correct and polite answer would have been.

1) Swings that miss can proc DA
2) DA doesnt have 100% acc


No. Both of those are correct statments, but neither is an answer to the mistaken statements made, and each are so fundamental to the basics of how things work that there should be no reason to even bring them up when attempting to correct you.

Quote:
Veg may have been right but being a dick isn't needed over a video game


There are certainly plenty of opportunities to be annoyed at needless flaming on these and other message boards, but Veg's post (in this particular case, anyway) is not one of them. His explanation didn't delve deeply into the mechanics of how things work, but I would guess that he assumes he shouldn't need to for such a basic concept as DA procs.

Quote:
I go by the wiki and when there is no information or not enough, I just go by what I would assume makes the most sense


Well, this is a problem on your end, then (and wiki, to an extent), and it manifests in a large number of the posts you've made (I've had more than a few head-desk moments on reading your posts, but since they were usually mixed in with an entire thread of stupidity, I didn't feel like it was worth getting involved in). If you don't actually know how something works, you need to do more research, and/or ask questions for a better understanding. Your thread on exact haste values for gear was a simple and correct way to proceed.

wiki wrote:
Double Attack: On multi-hit weapon skills, Double Attack can process on any hit of the weapon skill. Note, however, that Double Attack cannot process to induce a weapon skill to attempt to hit more than 8 times.


Long ago there was speculation that DA could proc on any hit of a weaponskill. However a 3-DA TP return was never confirmed by anyone (testing with either Penta Thrust or Raging Rush).

Quote:
For a 6 hit ws though, DA could fire on any of the 6 but as soon as its fired 2x, it wont attempt to fire for the remainder even if they miss and you only land say 5 hits (da da single)?


Further, if the chance a DA could proc was maintained across all hits until 2 procs were realized, then weaponskills with a high number of hits (eg: Penta, DE, etc) would have abnormally high levels of DA procs compared to lower-hit weaponskills, which is not the case.

While difficult to be absolutely certain, the current evidence points strongly against the statement made on the wiki. It is likely, however, that noone ever updated the wiki (I'm not going to try to figure out when that particular comment was added).

Quote:
Triple Attack: On multi-hit weapon skills, (using Dual Wield) Triple Attack can occur twice (once on first hit and again on off hand hit).


This is also somewhat ambiguous (based on my knowledge). It's not certain that the second TA must come from the offhand weapon. It's known that you can only DA once on a 1-hit weaponskill (eg: Gekko), and that you can DA twice on a multi-hit weaponskill where you don't have an offhand weapon (eg: Raging Rush, Vorpal Blade, any H2H). However a single-hit weaponskill can DA twice if you're dual wielding (eg: Viper Bite).

As such I would say that you have one TA/DA attempt for the first hit, and one additional attempt if the weaponskill has any additional hits.


#14 Apr 06 2011 at 9:14 PM Rating: Good
***
1,237 posts
Veggeto wrote:
Quote:
For a 6 hit ws though, DA could fire on any of the 6 but as soon as its fired 2x, it wont attempt to fire for the remainder even if they miss and you only land say 5 hits (da da single)?


Its eight attempts, not 8 landed hits.

DW kraken and anything else (octave, ridill, etc.) Hit or miss, you'll never swing more than 8 times between the two in a single round.


Which on a 6 hit ws if DA fired 2 times, thats 8 attempted hits... not sure what your trying to correct...





Edit*
Thanks kine for clearing that up

Edited, Apr 6th 2011 11:16pm by dustinfoley
#15 Apr 07 2011 at 2:46 AM Rating: Good
***
2,591 posts
Kine wrote:
It's known that you can only DA once on a 1-hit weaponskill (eg: Gekko)


Did you mean DA or TA? Otherwise, I don't see how anyone could ever think you can DA more than once for example on the same 1HIT ws (unless ppl actually thought somthing like that years ago lol).


Edit. Veg's post might of been sharp, but I didn't see any part where he was being a dick and there was certainly no flaming, and his question is valid.

Edit2. His post wasn't even sharp, he just started with a legitimate question, then carried on in his explanation.



Edited, Apr 7th 2011 4:50am by Sandmasterr
____________________________
Taking a break.
#16 Apr 07 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,423 posts
dustinfoley wrote:
Veggeto wrote:
Quote:
For a 6 hit ws though, DA could fire on any of the 6 but as soon as its fired 2x, it wont attempt to fire for the remainder even if they miss and you only land say 5 hits (da da single)?


Its eight attempts, not 8 landed hits.

DW kraken and anything else (octave, ridill, etc.) Hit or miss, you'll never swing more than 8 times between the two in a single round.


Which on a 6 hit ws if DA fired 2 times, thats 8 attempted hits... not sure what your trying to correct...





Edit*
Thanks kine for clearing that up

Edited, Apr 6th 2011 11:16pm by dustinfoley

I was half asleep and thought you asked something completely different, lol.
#17 Apr 09 2011 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,054 posts
Quote:
However, a few quick checks indicate that Epona's is worth about:

Mnk: 2.7% (Smite, /nin) to 2.5% (Smite, /war)
Pup: 2.1% (Pummel, /nin) to 1.9% (Pummel, /war)
Thf: 1.6% (Evis, /nin) to 1.5% (Evis, /war)



Normally I dont post here but I was interested in how you came up with Evis being worth 1.6% with Eponas.

As /nin, I would guess a gorget adding 0.1 to first attack and Brutal+Aetheling with 8% DA, and natural 10% TA.
This would bring the avg to 6.644fTP. 6 (base) + 0.1 (gorget) + 2x(2x0.1) + 2x(0.9x0.08)


Adding Eponas would be 6.8114. 6(base) + 0.1 (gorget) + 2x(2x0.13) + 2x(0.87x0.11)

6.8114/6.644 = 2.52%

Please show me(step by step) how my thinking is flawed if 1.6% is correct.
____________________________
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
#18 Apr 09 2011 at 11:10 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,236 posts
Evis: 5 hit, 1 offhand, 1.0 fTP

Base fTP: 6.0 + .1 (gorget)

TA: 10% trait/merits, 15% Apoc atma, 3% Triplus Dagger = 28%
DA: 5% Brutal + 3% Atheling = 8%

avg ftp: 6.1 + .28*2 + .72*.08 = 6.7176

Add Epona's

avg fTP: 6.1 + .31*2 + .69*.11 = 6.7959

6.7959 / 6.7176 = 1.17% increase


Leaving off Apoc atma and Triplus dagger:

6.1 + .1*2 + .9*.08 = 6.372
vs
6.1 + .13*2 + .87*.11 = 6.4557

6.4557 / 6.372 = 1.3%

Both of which are actually lower than my earlier quick estimate, so I may need to take another look at this.

In any case, your math is notably off in both calculations. You're giving 2x value for DAs when they should be 1x (1 additional hit; TA gets 2x for 2 additional hits). Even then, total for the case without Epona's should be 6.444 if you gave DAs 2x value, not the 6.644 you ended up with. Similar issue with the calculations with Epona's.
#19 Apr 10 2011 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,054 posts
Kinematics wrote:
Evis: 5 hit, 1 offhand, 1.0 fTP

Base fTP: 6.0 + .1 (gorget)

TA: 10% trait/merits, 15% Apoc atma, 3% Triplus Dagger = 28%
DA: 5% Brutal + 3% Atheling = 8%

avg ftp: 6.1 + .28*2 + .72*.08 = 6.7176

Add Epona's

avg fTP: 6.1 + .31*2 + .69*.11 = 6.7959

6.7959 / 6.7176 = 1.17% increase


Leaving off Apoc atma and Triplus dagger:

6.1 + .1*2 + .9*.08 = 6.372
vs
6.1 + .13*2 + .87*.11 = 6.4557

6.4557 / 6.372 = 1.3%

Both of which are actually lower than my earlier quick estimate, so I may need to take another look at this.

In any case, your math is notably off in both calculations. You're giving 2x value for DAs when they should be 1x (1 additional hit; TA gets 2x for 2 additional hits). Even then, total for the case without Epona's should be 6.444 if you gave DAs 2x value, not the 6.644 you ended up with. Similar issue with the calculations with Epona's.


I didnt give DA 2x value, the x2 (in bold on quote below)was showing it could proc on hit #1 or hit #2. You are only showing the +TA +DA as only procing on the first hit.

Quote:
Adding Eponas would be 6.8114. 6(base) + 0.1 (gorget) + 2x(2x0.13) + 2x(0.87x0.11)

Am I mistaken it thinking that DA and TA has a chance to proc on first 2 hits?

Or rather am I missing the overflow possiblity(max 8 hits) that eliminates the chance of proc on the second hit? If so please demonstrate mathematically so I can follow.


Edited, Apr 10th 2011 10:36am by doctorugh
____________________________
Quote:
You can't transform numbers into other numbers like that. It'd just go on forever. That's like witchcraft.


There's one guy I know who
Quote:
is a big deal now.
#20 Apr 10 2011 at 11:36 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,236 posts
Quote:
I didnt give DA 2x value, the x2 (in bold on quote below)was showing it could proc on hit #1 or hit #2. You are only showing the +TA +DA as only procing on the first hit.


Ack, nope, you're right. I've really been slipping the last few posts, haven't I?

Baseline (no Apoc atma, no Triplus):

No Epona: 6.0 + 0.1 + 2 * (0.1*2 + 0.08*0.9) = 6.644
Epona: 6.0 + 0.1 + 2 * (0.13*2 + 0.11*0.87) = 6.8114

Gain: 6.8114 / 6.644 = 2.5%

So, yes, you're correct on the raw percentage increase. But also yes, you're missing how much is lost from 8+ hit overflow.

The total number of hits across all hit distributions (but not full combinatorials) is 1850 with an 8 hit cap, and 1920 with no cap. Average number of hits (including combinatorials, but no Epona's) with an 8 hit cap is 6.45; average number with no cap is 6.49.

With an 8 hit cap there's a ~1.94% increase with Epona's; with no cap there's a ~2.26% increase in overall damage.

There's some extra lossiness that I'm apparently missing or forgetting (don't have time for a thorough examination right now). Add Apoc atma and the gain with Epona's drops to 1.5% with an 8 hit cap, while it would be 2.0% with no cap.

#21 Apr 25 2011 at 6:01 AM Rating: Decent
**
415 posts
For the purpose of accurately modeling the ws damage, are you certain that TA is checked prior to DA. Mdk just told me that when using assassin's charge, you can get the TP for a double attack (=if DA proc), and he told me this was shown by CDF long time ago on BG, when people on that site actually knew sh*t and didn't spend their time commenting official forums.

Edited, Apr 25th 2011 8:02am by lynnminmay
#22 Apr 25 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Based on parsed data (not my own), I'm pretty sure I remember the margin of error to be sufficiently small that you could conclusively (95%) say that TA proc'd before DA for melee. I don't have any reason to expect that it would be in a different order on weaponskills, however if there's real counterevidence to the TA>DA order, I'd love to see it.
#23 May 01 2011 at 4:49 AM Rating: Good
**
415 posts
I'm doing an om'hpende test on THF/WAR level 76 with 5/5 triple attack merit and brutal earring (15% DA and 10% TA). Correct me if I'm wrong but

* If DA is checked first, the rate of 2 swings- rounds is 15% and the rate of 3 swings rounds is (1-0.15)*0.10=8.5%. Also the rate of multiple swings per round is 23.5%.

*If TA is checked first, the rate of 3 swings- rounds is 10% and the rate of 2 swings rounds is (1-0.10)*0.15=13.5%. Also the rate of multiple swings per round is 23.5%.
#24 May 01 2011 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
**
415 posts
Ok results of the above test


Melee Data 
 
Player               # Melee Attacks    # Melee Rounds    Attacks/Round    # Extra Attacks 
Pimpchan                       11474              8819                1               2655 
 
Player               # +1 Rounds   # +2 Rounds   # +3 Rounds   # +4 Rounds    # >+4 Rounds 
Pimpchan                    1180           733             0             1               1 
 
Player               # MultiAttack Rounds    MultiAttack %     Kills w/Min Attacks    Kills w/<Min Attacks 
Pimpchan                             1915          21,71 %                       0                       0 
 
 
Treat As: 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (2x/3x): 
 
Player               # Double Attacks    DA Rate    Perc. DA     # Triple Attacks    TA Rate    Perc. TA 
Pimpchan                         1180    13,38 %     61,68 %                  733     8,31 %     38,32 % 
 
Multi-attacks per round (Kicks): 
 
Player               Footwork?    # Rounds w/Kicks    Kick Attack Rate 
Pimpchan                   Yes                1180             14,60 % 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (Zanshin): 
 
Player               # Missed First Attacks    # DA w/Missed First   Possible Zanshin % 
Pimpchan                               7043                    947              13,45 % 
 
Player               Acc. Rate of First Attacks    Acc. Rate of Second Attacks 
Pimpchan                                20,14 %                        18,69 % 
 
 
 


margins of error :

TA rate= 8.31% +/- 0.57%
DA rate= 13.38% +/- 0.71%
multi-attack%=21.71% +/- 0.86%

At best TA rate is 8.88% so this excludes TA being checked first
At best DA rate is 14.09% so this excludes DA being checked first
At best multi attack rate is 22.57% so this excludes both models alltogether

The only explanation I have found so far is that if DA and TA "proc" at the same time, none of them appears. With this model :

DA rate = 0.15*(1-0.10) = 13.5% lies within the above confident interval
TA rate = 0.10*(1-0.15) = 8.5% lies within the above CI
multiattack rate : 0.15*(1-0.10) + 0.10*(1-0.15)= 22% lies within the CI


You heard it here first : 100% TA rate and 100% DA rate means 0% multiattack rate. Suck less SE.


[for reference, my thf gear was : signet staff, lamiabane, turban, rapparee, dusk gloves +1, morgana's choker, brutal, novia, hoard ring, toreador, acerbic sash, skadi's chaussee, wood F ledelsens, total STR = 62 ]

Edited, May 1st 2011 9:46am by lynnminmay

Edited, May 1st 2011 10:23am by lynnminmay
#25 May 01 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Quote:
I'm doing an om'hpende test on THF/WAR level 76 with 5/5 triple attack merit and brutal earring (15% DA and 10% TA). Correct me if I'm wrong but

* If DA is checked first, the rate of 2 swings- rounds is 15% and the rate of 3 swings rounds is (1-0.15)*0.10=8.5%. Also the rate of multiple swings per round is 23.5%.

*If TA is checked first, the rate of 3 swings- rounds is 10% and the rate of 2 swings rounds is (1-0.10)*0.15=13.5%. Also the rate of multiple swings per round is 23.5%.


The premise seems accurate.


Correcting for the +4 and >+4 rounds won't really impact the final values, so...

Just, wow. I would not have expected this result.

Yes, it looks very much like the chance that either of them will proc is exclusive of the chances for the other to proc. The problem is determining, programmatically, which one actually -did- proc.

My first thought was that SE (against reasonable expectations) set up the odds for both of them as (1-OtherN)*N%. So, 13.5% for DA and 8.5% for TA. Except that you still have to figure out which of them proc'd. I suppose it could be something like a stacked comparison:

oddsOfDA = (100% - (TAPercent + QAPercent)) * DAPercent; 
oddsOfTA = (100% - (DAPercent + QAPercent)) * TAPercent; 
oddsOfQA = (100% - (DAPercent + TAPercent)) * QAPercent; 
 
randomCheck = random(); 
 
if (randomCheck <= oddsOfDA) 
  ProcDA(); 
else if (randomCheck <= (oddsOfDA + oddsOfTA)) 
  ProcTA(); 
else if (randomCheck <= (oddsOfDA + oddsOfTA + oddsOfQA)) 
  ProcQA();




Instead of simply using the expected sequential order check:

proc = false; 
 
if (QAPercent > 0) 
{ 
  randomCheck = random(); 
  if (randomCheck <= QAPercent) 
  { 
    ProcQA(); 
    proc = true; 
  } 
} 
 
if ((proc == false) && (TAPercent > 0)) 
{ 
  randomCheck = random(); 
  if (randomCheck <= TAPercent) 
  { 
    ProcTA(); 
    proc = true; 
  } 
} 
 
if ((proc == false) && (DAPercent > 0)) 
{ 
  randomCheck = random(); 
  if (randomCheck <= DAPercent) 
  { 
    ProcDA(); 
    proc = true; 
  } 
}



While there are additional ways to optimize the code, essentially it looks like they want to minimize the number of random() calls made (potentially significantly more expensive than the local operations).

The first bit of code could be made to work properly if you redid the calculations to effectively give one of the proc types priority over the others. Or perhaps it was intentional; perhaps large amounts of DA+TA is *supposed* to be detrimental. Impossible to say, really.

Would be interesting to see what sort of response this would get on the official boards...


This is also annoying since it means I'll have to redo the calculations in the spreadsheets for figuring out the impact of DA and TA (which weren't exactly a picnic to begin with).
#26 May 02 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
**
415 posts
Moar data. I added pole grip to the previous gear, which puts me at 17% DA and 10% TA
Melee Data 
 
Player               # Melee Attacks    # Melee Rounds    Attacks/Round    # Extra Attacks 
Pimpchan                       11435              8672                1               2763 
 
Player               # +1 Rounds   # +2 Rounds   # +3 Rounds   # +4 Rounds    # >+4 Rounds 
Pimpchan                    1355           697             3             0               1 
 
Player               # MultiAttack Rounds    MultiAttack %     Kills w/Min Attacks    Kills w/<Min Attacks 
Pimpchan                             2056          23,71 %                       0                       0 
 
 
Treat As: 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (2x/3x): 
 
Player               # Double Attacks    DA Rate    Perc. DA     # Triple Attacks    TA Rate    Perc. TA 
Pimpchan                         1355    15,63 %     66,03 %                  697     8,04 %     33,97 % 
 
Multi-attacks per round (Kicks): 
 
Player               Footwork?    # Rounds w/Kicks    Kick Attack Rate 
Pimpchan                   Yes                1355             17,00 % 
 
Multi-attacks per attack (Zanshin): 
 
Player               # Missed First Attacks    # DA w/Missed First   Possible Zanshin % 
Pimpchan                               6915                   1094              15,82 % 
 
Player               Acc. Rate of First Attacks    Acc. Rate of Second Attacks 
Pimpchan                                20,26 %                        17,00 % 
 
 
 


This completely confirms what is happening

expected rate if TA is checked first (*)
TA : 10%
DA : (1-0.10)*1.17=15.3%
expected rate if DA is checked first (**)
DA : 17%
TA : (1-0.17)*1.10=8.3%

Observed rates (with confident interval)
TA : 8.04% +/- 0.57%
DA : 15.62% +/- 0.76%


The observed TA rate excludes (*) by a large margin (~1.5% difference at least)
The observed DA rate excludes (**) by a decent margin (~0.6% difference at least)
Obviously the expected rates are the DA rate from (*) and the TA rate from (**) respectively which confirms what I concluded in the previous post, as in : when the game rolls a DA and a TA, none occur. Problem.


Note 1 : the above confident intervals are done at 95% likelyood.
Note 2 : My MONK/WAR with atheling/epona/brutal and apocalypse has 21% DA and 18% which means that I'm only getting 17.2% actual DArate and 14.22% TA rate. If I was single wielding my signet staff it's a drop of my avergae #hits/per round of about -3.3% compared to the previous model.



Edited, May 2nd 2011 11:24am by lynnminmay
#27 May 02 2011 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
**
983 posts
Other multi-attack things this may apply to that there should already be substantial data on:
OAT, Sea weapons, Saber Dance

* OAT was thought to be competitive.
* Fort Axe was thought to have DA/TA able to proc off Virtue stones procs, but with >3 rounds being demoted to 3.
* Saber Dance was thought to replace the /WAR Double Attack Job Trait (basically by me). (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/100651-The-Current-Hierarchy-of-DDs?p=4262169&viewfull=1#post4262169 and further down the page)

Three questions, I guess:
1) What STR do I need to aim for on Hpmedes to hit for 0?
2) What is the minimum delay that KParser can reliably recognize DAs for? Ballpark is fine.
3) How would I write a script that uses Saber Dance every 3 minutes overnight and doesn't crash me?

3% back, 2% waist, 2% grip, 10% trait, 5% brutal, and 2% Aurore if I can = 24% DA from gear
20% average predicted DA from Saber Dance.

44% if they just add, 34% predicted from my previous tests.
____________________________
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
#28 May 02 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Byrthnoth wrote:
Other multi-attack things this may apply to that there should already be substantial data on:
OAT, Sea weapons, Saber Dance

* OAT was thought to be competitive.
* Fort Axe was thought to have DA/TA able to proc off Virtue stones procs, but with >3 rounds being demoted to 3.
* Saber Dance was thought to replace the /WAR Double Attack Job Trait (basically by me). (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/100651-The-Current-Hierarchy-of-DDs?p=4262169&viewfull=1#post4262169 and further down the page)

Three questions, I guess:
1) What STR do I need to aim for on Hpmedes to hit for 0?
2) What is the minimum delay that KParser can reliably recognize DAs for? Ballpark is fine.
3) How would I write a script that uses Saber Dance every 3 minutes overnight and doesn't crash me?

3% back, 2% waist, 2% grip, 10% trait, 5% brutal, and 2% Aurore if I can = 24% DA from gear
20% average predicted DA from Saber Dance.

44% if they just add, 34% predicted from my previous tests.


1) From what I remember, 61-62 str for the ones near the entrance; might be able to go up to 65 str for the ones at the back of the southern area, and possibly a few points higher with the ones in the northern area.

Edit: Found it -- post here, with max str for the various level hpemdes. 66 is max for the highest level mobs.

2) I'd guess 200-210 minimum, but would suggest 240 or higher if possible.

3) No idea.

34%: interesting prediction. 24% * (1-20%) + 20% * (1-24%) = 34.4%, using the xor calculations. Given this new understanding, that would imply that Saber Dance is explicitly different from DA, and suffers from the same problem where (effectively) if both proc at the same time, you get the benefit of neither.

Edited, May 2nd 2011 2:34pm by Kinematics
#29 May 02 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
**
983 posts
Hmm... that may be a bad point to test then. In the past it has come out as a simple DA-10% from what is expected. At the time, I interpreted it as Saber Dance canceling out the DA trait from /WAR. My previous data doesn't exclude this model though.

If I get it working though, it won't matter. I can spend a few nights in sea and test a bazillion values.

Edited, May 2nd 2011 3:33pm by Byrthnoth
____________________________
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
#30 May 02 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
If it progresses in the expected 25%/20%/15% over 3 minutes..


10% DA from /war == 30% / 26% / 22%
Overall average: 26%

15% DA from /war + Brutal == 32.5% / 29% / 25.5%
Overall average: 29%

20% DA from /war + Brutal + Atheling + Twilight == 35% / 32% / 29%
Overall average: 32%

Gaining 3% avg DA for every 5% added in gear.

Avg if DA+SD-10%:
10%DA: 20% (if xor, expect parse to be 6% higher)
15%DA: 25% (if xor, expect parse to be 4% higher)
20%DA: 30% (if xor, expect parse to be 2% higher)



You'll need at least -15 str if you're hume dnc/war.

Acerbic Sash: -7
Hoard Ring: -4
Nemus Bazubands: -4
^- for base (need to take off Twilight; use Pole Grip for +2 DA instead)
Nemus Nails: -3
Snow Ring: -2
^- to compensate for Aurore body str, if used
#31 May 02 2011 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
**
983 posts
Well, I'm a taru fortunately (75 STR base on 90DNC/45WAR without STR merits).

This post says I'll need 60 STR to bring fSTR to -1 on the highest level Hpmedes (67 AGI, 75 VIT, 275 or 280 Eva):
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/68786-Dexterity-s-impact-on-critical-hits?p=3193007&viewfull=1#post3193007

I can probably avoid getting Nemus hands/feet synergized if I drop my STR merits and get Coeurl Ledelsens made (much easier).

Setup:
Cobra Staff/Pole Grip/____/Charis Feather
AF3+2 head/Love Torque/____/Brutal
AF3+2 Body/AF3+2/Hoard/Malflame
Atheling/Acerbic/Matre/Coeurl

DEX81+30 (dDEX=44 = 18% crit rate)
20% Double Attack
STR75-15 (fSTR=-1)
132 staff skill, +19 Acc from gear, +35 from traits, +55 from DEX = 241 Acc = ~55-58% hit rate

Tonight I will spam Box Step and staff with this setup, assuming I can find an Acerbic Sash and Coeurl Ledelsens. From there I can move on to testing Feather Step's potency, Step Acc gear, and other DA values.
____________________________
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
#32 May 02 2011 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
A more complete str list is linked to in my post above (edited in, you may have missed it). The highest level om'hpemdes allow up to 66 str for your testing needs.

Since you're taru, then 80 str with merits would need just -14 str, which is doable with Acerbic+Hoard+Malflame; so, you shouldn't need to drop any merits, though by dropping 3 merits you add 2 more levels of mob you can work on.
#33 May 02 2011 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
**
983 posts
Masamune and pchan in the thread I linked seem to have shown experimentally that 60 or 61 is the upper limit on STR you can have and avoid hitting for >0. Specifically this post:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/68786-Dexterity-s-impact-on-critical-hits?p=3193007&viewfull=1#post3193007

Edited, May 2nd 2011 7:49pm by Byrthnoth
____________________________
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
#34 May 02 2011 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
That's only for the ul's, which only go up to lvl 72. The om's go up to 77. See this post.
#35 May 02 2011 at 8:06 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
36 posts
So basically (based on pchan's results) from an average hits/round point of view, if your TA rate > 33%, any DA will mess up your output, or if your DA rate > 66%, any TA will mess up your output. But if your TA < 34% and DA < 67%, that is ok (unless I horribly screwed this up).

Are DA > 66% or TA > 33% even possible? I don't recall.
#36 May 02 2011 at 8:59 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Antisense wrote:
So basically (based on pchan's results) from an average hits/round point of view, if your TA rate > 33%, any DA will mess up your output, or if your DA rate > 66%, any TA will mess up your output. But if your TA < 34% and DA < 67%, that is ok (unless I horribly screwed this up).

Are DA > 66% or TA > 33% even possible? I don't recall.



DA > 66% isn't possible. TA > 33% is.

All values of either will mess with the value of the other, with higher values causing progressively greater devaluation of the other stat. I've already worked out that TA > 20% means that Raider's Earring (1% TA) beats Brutal Earring (5% DA) for any reasonable amounts of DA (anything up to ~20%).

There is no solid rule of thumb yet for the preference in relative values. We still need to compare a lot of different scenarios to see the relative impacts of each stat in gear choices.
#37 May 02 2011 at 11:06 PM Rating: Good
**
712 posts
Kinematics wrote:
Antisense wrote:
So basically (based on pchan's results) from an average hits/round point of view, if your TA rate > 33%, any DA will mess up your output, or if your DA rate > 66%, any TA will mess up your output. But if your TA < 34% and DA < 67%, that is ok (unless I horribly screwed this up).

Are DA > 66% or TA > 33% even possible? I don't recall.



DA > 66% isn't possible. TA > 33% is.

Wouldnt that only apply to thf, since as far as I know, theyre the only job that can reach 30%+ TA with gear/traits/merits/atmas. Other jobs would be stuck around the 15% ~ 28% no?
____________________________
SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#38 May 03 2011 at 12:40 AM Rating: Good
Sage
**
523 posts
hitoseijuro wrote:

Wouldnt that only apply to thf, since as far as I know, theyre the only job that can reach 30%+ TA with gear/traits/merits/atmas. Other jobs would be stuck around the 15% ~ 28% no?


Any job could sit at a 35% Triple Attack rate with proper atma support: Atma of the Apocalypse for 15%, Atma of the Lion and Atma of Alpha and Omega for 10% each. Don't why you'd ever want to do that, but it is possible if not feasible.
____________________________
Server - Bahamut
Name - dawdr
Mithra 75thf/40rng/37nin/37war/37drk/37sam
#39 May 03 2011 at 3:55 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
36 posts
Kinematics wrote:
All values of either will mess with the value of the other, with higher values causing progressively greater devaluation of the other stat. I've already worked out that TA > 20% means that Raider's Earring (1% TA) beats Brutal Earring (5% DA) for any reasonable amounts of DA (anything up to ~20%).

There is no solid rule of thumb yet for the preference in relative values. We still need to compare a lot of different scenarios to see the relative impacts of each stat in gear choices.


Well, yeah. All I mean is that combining DA and TA will not be detrimental (up to a point), like DA doesn't "nerf" Ridill. Tradeoffs are a different issue (as you recall circa 2007 you could still use Brutal with Ridill since it's not like there was really anything better to use). For THF, /WAR doesn't seem to be very good vs. /NIN if you're sitting on 30% TA for example.

Edited, May 3rd 2011 5:56am by Antisense
#40 May 03 2011 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
**
415 posts
62 str works on the hpende that roam in the crag entrance areas.
#41 May 03 2011 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Antisense wrote:
Kinematics wrote:
All values of either will mess with the value of the other, with higher values causing progressively greater devaluation of the other stat. I've already worked out that TA > 20% means that Raider's Earring (1% TA) beats Brutal Earring (5% DA) for any reasonable amounts of DA (anything up to ~20%).

There is no solid rule of thumb yet for the preference in relative values. We still need to compare a lot of different scenarios to see the relative impacts of each stat in gear choices.


Well, yeah. All I mean is that combining DA and TA will not be detrimental (up to a point), like DA doesn't "nerf" Ridill. Tradeoffs are a different issue (as you recall circa 2007 you could still use Brutal with Ridill since it's not like there was really anything better to use). For THF, /WAR doesn't seem to be very good vs. /NIN if you're sitting on 30% TA for example.


For TA > 33%, adding Brutal will start to reduce your average hits per round, so that's the point where you're actually hurting yourself adding DA. At TA = 30%, adding Brutal is a 0.3% gain in hits per round (assuming no other DA at all). At TA = 20%, adding Brutal is a 1.4% gain in hits per round. At TA = 10%, adding Brutal is a 2.9% increase in hits per round. At TA = 0%, adding Brutal is a 5% gain in hits per round.

So the loss, at 10% increments of TA, as a percentage of the previous gain amount is: 42%, 52%, 79%. The loss accelerates as TA increases, but is fairly substantial even at low levels. In the 10%-20% TA range (Apoc atma and perhaps Epona's Ring), you can expect all DA gear to have about half its listed value in actual improvement to hits per round.
#42 May 03 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
**
415 posts
A big part of this is due to the fact that the base attack per round is a lot bigger than 1, though, and not ompletely to the new findings.

For instance with apoc, epona, atheling as base, sub ninja :

previous model :
base attacks/round : 1+1*0.06+2*0.18*(1-0.06)=1.3984
with brutal earring : 1.4304

=> net gain = +2.28%

Current model :
base : 1+1*0.06*(1-0.18)+2*0.18*(1-0.06)=1.3876
with brutal : 1.4106

=> net gain : +1.66%

Also we have to keep in mind that the global dps is not a function of the average round/sec




Edited, May 3rd 2011 1:21pm by lynnminmay
#43 May 03 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
**
983 posts
I can't get anyone to sell me a Acerbic Sash, so I ate some cursed soup and did a test run to make sure my script would work and to get some preliminary data (it didn't, but I think I can fix it). 65 STR does work on the highest level ones at the crags.

What I found, on the other hand, was thoroughly weird.

24% double attack rate (461/1935) @3 hour mark with Saber Dance up every 3 minutes and 22% DA through traits and gear. The script failed once and it parsed for ~1 minute without refreshing Saber Dance, but then I did it manually and got it back on track. The only expaination I have is that Saber Dance is somehow affected by accuracy.

I need a damned Acerbic Sash so I can test this overnight.
____________________________
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
#44 May 03 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Not sure what happened there, but I'm thinking you need a baseline value first. That is, dnc/nin with no DA gear at all, running the SD script overnight, so you know what to expect from the script's performance. Then do another run to see the impact of adding the DA gear.
#45 May 03 2011 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
**
983 posts
I agree, but before I do that I will need to get an Acerbic Sash.
____________________________
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
#46 May 04 2011 at 3:27 AM Rating: Good
**
415 posts
Possible explanation : it doesn't overwrite itself (lol useless merits ?), it works like umpetus and you need to hit the target, if so, I'll suggest using D1 daggers or lady bell. It could be that it is just an oat that only procs if the hit lands and doesn't double attck (this would be easy to check with no DA and a few hits).
#47 May 04 2011 at 5:24 AM Rating: Decent
**
983 posts
lynnminmay wrote:
Possible explanation : it doesn't overwrite itself (lol useless merits ?), it works like umpetus and you need to hit the target, if so, I'll suggest using D1 daggers or lady bell. It could be that it is just an oat that only procs if the hit lands and doesn't double attack (this would be easy to check with no DA and a few hits).


Unfortunately, it's not an accuracy check on the first swing. After 6 minutes I had 5 possible "Zanshins" with less than a 100% hit rate on them. If it's somehow accuracy related, it's not in an obvious way.

I agree that it might not overwrite. Well, I was thinking that potentially re-using Saber Dance might just extend duration unless you cancel it. I have the script fixed now and will let it run while I'm at work. If this comes out with an unexpectedly low %DA, I'll add "Cancel" before Saber Dance activation and see if that changes anything.

Edit:
CDF, can you think of a reason kparser might be missing attacks? Specifically after doing "Stop" and then "Continue"

Edited, May 4th 2011 8:31am by Byrthnoth
____________________________
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
#48 May 04 2011 at 10:10 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Actually, that's an interesting idea, and you can check if, in fact, your DA rate is decaying continually, and reuse of Saber Dance doesn't reset the DA values, with your existing parse.

What you can do is run a Split on the parse in 1 minute chunks, and look at the DA rate within that period. While there's liable to be chopped results due to attack rounds crossing over 1 minute boundaries, you should at least be able to see if there's any general trends.

If you want to get really fancy, you can use the details section of the Extra Attacks tab to pick out more precise time values to split on so that you don't have attacks overlapping selected boundaries. Realize that to include all attacks for one multiattack round you should set the split to end immediately before the next round begins, as the attacks that are grouped into each round will be spread out over a period of time.

If the DA rate progresses in sets of high/medium/low/high/medium/low, then SD properly overwrites and resets itself. If it progresses as high/medium/low/low/low/low, then the decay is based on the initial start time of the JA, and may explain the long-term results you're seeing (24% overall with 22% in gear/traits, where the vast majority of the parse got no DA boost).



Edited, May 4th 2011 11:13am by Kinematics
#49 May 04 2011 at 10:24 AM Rating: Decent
*
134 posts
Quote:
and as a matter of fact, I don't even recall saying anything to be a dick here. I asked you why you would use a twilight belt, since you were counting it for DA.

That was a serious question (one that you haven't answered yet).


A mnk with no BB could use twilight and keep haste cap and get the extra DA value from the belt, sure it would work out to better DoT than the +8 str or whatever the second mod on brown is.

Just a thought.
#50 May 04 2011 at 10:56 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,236 posts
Revision to above suggestion: Just use the Extra Attacks details listing and do a manual count per minute range. It'd be faster and easier.
#51 May 04 2011 at 2:26 PM Rating: Decent
**
983 posts
How do I quote the parse data like pchan did?

All intervals are just 95% confidence

4348 rounds, 811 DAs, 18.65% average DA rate (+/- 1.16%)

DA rate was unaffected by missing the first swing, and the hit rate of DAs was not significantly different than normal hit rate (58.81% +/-1.34%)

Box Step hit rate was 62.43% +/- 2.42%, so steps either have a modest accuracy bonus over normal hits or double attack can proc on them. 62.43/(1+.1865*.5881) = 56.26, and the way the script is set up there are actually more box steps later in the DA cycle, iirc.

Crit rate was 14% +/- 1%

It's going to take me a bit to count the 3 minute blocks by hand. First I'm going to dick around trying to get it into matlab with space delimiters to see if I can make a pretty graph of it.

Okay, I can move all the extra attacks into matlab and turn the timestamp from the extra details into a timestamp (number in seconds) and pull out the number of attacks at that timestamp. Then I subtract off the offset (started at 8:30ish) and divide by my cycle time (181 seconds) to make it cyclical. From there I subtract off the whole number (so I'm just left with a fraction out of 181) and sort high to low. Now I'm attempting to sum the number of hits in every "second window," and I'm semi-convinced my code is working now <_<.

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/4285/unsmoothed.jpg

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7229/boxavg.jpg

The first is unsmoothed and relative to position in the cycle. It's rough because there are only about 25 samples for each point. Despite the obvious spike at the beginning (and end), I'm not entirely sure where along the cycle I used Saber Dance. Obviously I'd guess the beginning, but I don't really know.

The second is smoothed (average over 10 bins, relative to the frequency in each bin), but there's still no guarantee that every point is equally represented. I think maybe I just need more sample size, so I'm letting it run another 10 hours.

Edited, May 4th 2011 6:01pm by Byrthnoth
____________________________
Yay for Jhereg!
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Byrth
« Previous 1 2 3
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 26 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (26)