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Relic/Emp Daggers, not worth the effort? Follow

#1 Sep 21 2011 at 8:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Seing a lot of post regarding dagger use and it seems most favor the Kila + 2 or some of the NM drop daggers.

Is it not worth the time/effort to get the relic/Emp?
#2 Sep 21 2011 at 8:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ppl usually ask about a "easy" way. And easy way they get as reply. Of course, if you have resources both mandau and twash are worthwhile to get. In the past it was common to say that mandau changed thf completely. That is still true, and it also aplies to Twash, as both weapons have that same job changing tools (high dps and a strong ws). On twash's case, it's not even much of an effort (as you can see from so many ppl walking around with the weapon today).

Edited, Sep 21st 2011 10:56am by Laphine
#3 Sep 21 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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As said, if you have the desire and the resources, yeah its totally worth it. But if you play for 3 hours a week, its a harder case. It would take you forever to actually finish with so little play time and you wouldnt be able to accomplish ANYTHING else during the process.

Point is, 'worth' is relative depending on the resources you can afford to dump into it. If you want it and you have some combination of high levels of either or all of the following: playtime/gil/connections; then you can complete it in a fairly straightforward way in a tolerable time frame. The less of those you have, the longer it will take to complete and then you better REALLY want it to continue.

Twash/Mandau are the best daggers you can go for. If that is important to you and you have the resouces, by all means go get em tiger! If not, then check out the multitude of lesser daggers that are still good, but far easier to obtain.

Its kinda assumed that whenever people ask about daggers that the answer is mandau or twash, but if they were going for those, they wouldnt be asking about what daggers to use, so we (the community) answer with the more easily attainable ones (not twash/mandau).
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#4 Sep 21 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for clearing that up fellas.

Wanted to shoot for Twash but it seems a bit unrealistic to achieve due to my limited playtime.

Wouldn't want the tiny bit of playtime I have to revolve around grinding trials for the weapon.
#5 Sep 22 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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I had fairly similar playing constraints to you before I had to stop for school (40 hrs work + 15 credits is killing me). I was able to get an Almace up to level 80 with that kind of time investment. So don't let that discourage you. It just takes longer that people who can play 10-12 hrs a day.
#6 Sep 22 2011 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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^ this 100%.

Its not impossible to do with limited time/resources, just takes longer. If you want it REALLY bad, then it can still be worth it.

Its a pretty simply equation: Desire vs Resources. If you have a lot of desire, but few resources, it can still work. Alternatively, if you dont want it 'that' much, but have TONS of resources (ie: it would be 'easy' for you) then it can also be worth it.

Is your desire for the item greater than the time and effort you personally would have to expend to get it?

Basically, all comes right back to the question in the OP. Is it worth it? Depends entirely on you :P We cant really answer it for you, but we can tell you how much effort it really is (those that have done it or are working on empys at least) and tell you how powerful the item is. Then you decide how much you want that power and how feasible it is for you to complete it and weigh it yourself.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2011 11:14am by Banalaty
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Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#7 Sep 23 2011 at 1:37 AM Rating: Decent
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95 relics had ODD/ODT proc rate boosted btw. ODD is now 20% and ODT is now 13.5% 13% (13% ODT is equal to 20% ODD) Basically relics just got the equivalent of empyrean lvl 1 aftermath that's always on.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2011 4:41am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#8 Sep 24 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I better get on my VW. My new job has screwed up my playtime, but boosted ODD ftw. SO guess I know what i will be doing with all my free time for a bit.
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#9 Sep 24 2011 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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LordTrey wrote:
I better get on my VW. My new job has screwed up my playtime, but boosted ODD ftw. SO guess I know what i will be doing with all my free time for a bit.



Only applies to Relics not Empyreans.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#10 Oct 12 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
Didn't want to make a thread, but what's the general balance of power Mandau vs. Twashtar? Just curious.
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#11 Oct 12 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Decent
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It's now confirmed that lvl 95 Empyrean upgrade is only what's written on the weapon. No boost to aftermath or WS damage, just more DMG and an extra +2 to the base stat.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#12 Oct 13 2011 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
what's the general balance of power Mandau vs. Twashtar? Just curious.


On paper they are really very, very close. Similar DPS (Man has 1 more damage, same delay). Rudra=3.0 ftp, 60% dex. Mercy=3.0ftp, 60% str. Aftermath comparable to mandau normal proc. Mercy has 25% bonus damage, rudra has higher potential to start with.

Rudra has more potential epeen damage because stacking with SATA overlaps more dex gear than str so gear is more cohesive than stacking str/dex making gear more efficient. Also FTP rises with TP over 100 unlike mercy. +15 dex on SA etc.

At this point in the game, they perform similarly, they 'play' similarly (because the WS are so similar) and one can now legitimately argue they take similar resources to aquire (1500 metal plates bumps up twash to relic level effort on top of everything else).

Twash has higher spike damage, but a little more finicky with the need to keep aftermath up while mandau is a little more flexible because of the weak aftermath, but lower WS damage so you are freed up to use evis more often when its better.

I wouldnt loose any sleep worrying about 'picking' the wrong one and regretting it. They both are so similar its not worth worrying about.
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Lu Shangs-5/28/08
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Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

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Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#13 Oct 13 2011 at 10:00 AM Rating: Default
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You forgot Mandau's +35 attack, fairly certain at 95 Mandau has the edge if not attack capped since Twash got nothing but base and 2 dex at 95.

Edited, Oct 13th 2011 1:00pm by Neisan
#14 Oct 13 2011 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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Just a small fix, but rudra has 3.25 ftp at 100.

And another edge we could give RS is its ftp growth too~
#15 Oct 13 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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Methinks ~40% ODD more than makes up for that :P the ~13% triple proc is equivalent to only 26% ODD rate.

To TLDR it: I would imagine that Twash pulls ahead so long as aftermath is maintained. Its WS is a little better, the ODD aftermath is far more powerful than the damage procs on mandau and enough to make up for 1 base damage and 35 atk easily and probably the (minor if i understand) crit rate aftermath on mandau.

Which leads me to me previous statement. Twash, i feel, has a little more potential, but its more finicky because it requires the aftermath to really get there. Mandau is less dependant on any human factors and therefore a little more reliable because it performs well regardless of human error.

Once you factor in human error, they might as well be clones.
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Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#16 Oct 13 2011 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
Methinks ~40% ODD more than makes up for that :P the ~13% triple proc is equivalent to only 26% ODD rate.

To TLDR it: I would imagine that Twash pulls ahead so long as aftermath is maintained. Its WS is a little better, the ODD aftermath is far more powerful than the damage procs on mandau and enough to make up for 1 base damage and 35 atk easily and probably the (minor if i understand) crit rate aftermath on mandau.

Which leads me to me previous statement. Twash, i feel, has a little more potential, but its more finicky because it requires the aftermath to really get there. Mandau is less dependant on any human factors and therefore a little more reliable because it performs well regardless of human error.

Once you factor in human error, they might as well be clones.


However Mandau is hands down better if you can't SATA and have to use Dancing Edge or Eviceration. Also, assuming Coruscanti turns out to be awesome you'll have to give up TP bonus offhand on Twastar to use it which puts Rudra's behind Mercy Stroke at 100% TP in that scenario. Dual wielded MS on 90/95 Mandau is fTP 5.0 vs 4.25 at 100% TP for dual wielded Rudra's (the 25% damage multiplier affects the offhand hit and any multi hit procs in the WS)

I have a feeling that Mandau is going to get another boost at 99 while Twastar is going to just be more DEX and DMG. SE hinted on the official forum that they will be adding something new (as opposed to buffing existing properties) to relics and mythics at level 99.

Of course I also have a feeling that they're going to ask for another 10k currency at 99, or if not that then something equally difficult.



Edited, Oct 13th 2011 7:46pm by Lobivopis
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The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#17 Oct 14 2011 at 2:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Coruscanti has been found out to be a typo and is only crit rate +5% on the JP client
#18 Oct 14 2011 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, Twash is heavily dependant on aftermath, although with TP dagger, it stands up just fine to evis/DE without stacking. There are still other little things like TP bonus WOTG earring that can be used to beef it up to ~4.5 DW at 100TP+overflow TP we all get, but it still is 'generally' going to come down to the ability to use all of Twashes potential which depends on situation and human error as you described.

Basically, if you have the option to spam EFFECTIVE rudras and keep aftermath up without gimping yourself, Twash should be gravy. If you can never use Rudra/Mercy then Mandau wins hands down. Somewhere in the middle (where real people actually play :P) they should be the realistic performance. This could swing either way.

Honestly, unless SE makes some rather drastic change to either relic or empy weapons at 99, im comfortable enough saying its to close to realistically call so long as both are used intelligently to focus on their strengths and minimize weaknesses. The specific situation and person behind it will determine which would get the edge. We could do some elaborate modeling to factor in everything and come up with a winner, but i cant imagine it would be by enough to care and it impacts so few people i cant be bothered. ****, it may be as simple as "Elvs go mandau for str, mithra go twash for dex" and leave it at that :P
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Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#19 Oct 14 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
Slightly more poignant than coming down to race, DNC is on Twashtar and not Mandau. Since DNC inherits a good deal of the light class armor THF has, chances are you either already have it or could have it within two weeks, giving you two jobs empy'd out not one.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 1:34pm by tertoonetwothreefour
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#20 Oct 14 2011 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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buddyslack wrote:
Coruscanti has been found out to be a typo and is only crit rate +5% on the JP client


No it has "occasionally deals severe damage" in addition to "Critical hit rate +5%" The typo was that they left out the critical hit rate in the NA/EU client.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 8:59pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#21 Oct 22 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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If you can't get either relic or empyrean, I suggest you go for the Walk of Echoes version.

My ls leader said, when I mentioned that I was doing woe for the weapon, that our linkshell had 65 people and if I wanted I should go for the real thing. I told him that I play 2-3x a week for 1-2 hours, I don't think people would nicely come to my help every time I logged in.

I spent 3 weeks in walk of echoes. I was extremely unlucky with coins of birth, I got 60+ of everything else. However, I did get my weapon and in a colibri party I was able to get these numbers:

7857 SA Rudra's Storm. If you could SAWS or TAWS, the damage was a very consistent ~~5k dmg.

Yes I could pull 5k eviscerations if I wanted but the damage wasn't as consistent as a SA rudra's storm. Obviously it isn't that great for abyssea since solo ws plus a SA or TA would be more damage over SAWS or TAWS. However, this weapon gives me an immense edge outside abyssea as it's a really strong ftp, 1 hit ws with high mods that I didn't have to worry one bit about acc if I had to TAWS or SAWS.

I have to say that I am extremely happy with the outcome.
#22 Oct 29 2011 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I was looking for a post about mercy vs rudra's and found this one. As i think they are similar and maybe is a question of playstyle pick one or another but i'm still not happy with the answer. Someone mention that Twash get more advantage from equip since is 60% DEX and stack with SA equip getting the max potential of the both SA and WS and Mercy is STR 60% and that hurts if you want use it with SA. However, there is new equip that gives both, STR and DEX like Aias Bonnet and Ocelomeh Harness.

Ok i'll try to make the question w/o mess up all with my poor inglish. Let's imagine I have +50 dex on my SA build (is a ramdon number not start to arguin about if i'm gimp or pimp -_-) ofc if i have to sacrifice 25 dex to add 25 STR for Mercy i'm boosted the WS but gimped the SA and it not happens with Rudra's, but what about if i'm able to keep those 50DEX and add the 25 STR? then will be Mercy better than Rudra's? forget thinks like "if you are albe to keep the aftermatch" just WS or SAWS cause i'll will use it in a lot of different scenarios and I'll never know if i'll be able to keep aftermatch up or not or anything else.

And the million dolar question. What about have both? :P
#23 Oct 29 2011 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Vodak wrote:
However, there is new equip that gives both, STR and DEX like Aias Bonnet and Ocelomeh Harness.


Hecatomb set says hi.




Edited, Oct 29th 2011 9:39pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#24 Oct 31 2011 at 2:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Vodak wrote:
However, there is new equip that gives both, STR and DEX like Aias Bonnet and Ocelomeh Harness and w/o a ridiculous amount of slow+ (fixed).


No matter how many times i check it, body still gives only STR.

Edited, Oct 31st 2011 4:30pm by Vodak
#25 Nov 26 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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HQ augment is guaranteed dex. Also, slow doesn't affect weapon skills.

Edited, Nov 26th 2011 10:17pm by Deadgye
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#26 Nov 28 2011 at 3:19 AM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote:
HQ augment is guaranteed dex. Also, slow doesn't affect weapon skills.

Edited, Nov 26th 2011 10:17pm by Deadgye


Yes, it does give DEX as an augment, which would class it as new equip, since augmenting sky gear is somewhat "new".

Also, from what I see, 3 DEX is the max, so STR+12 DEX+3 compared to Ocelomeh's STR+11 DEX+11...
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