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Relic/Emp Daggers, not worth the effort? Follow

#1 Sep 21 2011 at 8:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Seing a lot of post regarding dagger use and it seems most favor the Kila + 2 or some of the NM drop daggers.

Is it not worth the time/effort to get the relic/Emp?
#2 Sep 21 2011 at 8:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ppl usually ask about a "easy" way. And easy way they get as reply. Of course, if you have resources both mandau and twash are worthwhile to get. In the past it was common to say that mandau changed thf completely. That is still true, and it also aplies to Twash, as both weapons have that same job changing tools (high dps and a strong ws). On twash's case, it's not even much of an effort (as you can see from so many ppl walking around with the weapon today).

Edited, Sep 21st 2011 10:56am by Laphine
#3 Sep 21 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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As said, if you have the desire and the resources, yeah its totally worth it. But if you play for 3 hours a week, its a harder case. It would take you forever to actually finish with so little play time and you wouldnt be able to accomplish ANYTHING else during the process.

Point is, 'worth' is relative depending on the resources you can afford to dump into it. If you want it and you have some combination of high levels of either or all of the following: playtime/gil/connections; then you can complete it in a fairly straightforward way in a tolerable time frame. The less of those you have, the longer it will take to complete and then you better REALLY want it to continue.

Twash/Mandau are the best daggers you can go for. If that is important to you and you have the resouces, by all means go get em tiger! If not, then check out the multitude of lesser daggers that are still good, but far easier to obtain.

Its kinda assumed that whenever people ask about daggers that the answer is mandau or twash, but if they were going for those, they wouldnt be asking about what daggers to use, so we (the community) answer with the more easily attainable ones (not twash/mandau).
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#4 Sep 21 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for clearing that up fellas.

Wanted to shoot for Twash but it seems a bit unrealistic to achieve due to my limited playtime.

Wouldn't want the tiny bit of playtime I have to revolve around grinding trials for the weapon.
#5 Sep 22 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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I had fairly similar playing constraints to you before I had to stop for school (40 hrs work + 15 credits is killing me). I was able to get an Almace up to level 80 with that kind of time investment. So don't let that discourage you. It just takes longer that people who can play 10-12 hrs a day.
#6 Sep 22 2011 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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^ this 100%.

Its not impossible to do with limited time/resources, just takes longer. If you want it REALLY bad, then it can still be worth it.

Its a pretty simply equation: Desire vs Resources. If you have a lot of desire, but few resources, it can still work. Alternatively, if you dont want it 'that' much, but have TONS of resources (ie: it would be 'easy' for you) then it can also be worth it.

Is your desire for the item greater than the time and effort you personally would have to expend to get it?

Basically, all comes right back to the question in the OP. Is it worth it? Depends entirely on you :P We cant really answer it for you, but we can tell you how much effort it really is (those that have done it or are working on empys at least) and tell you how powerful the item is. Then you decide how much you want that power and how feasible it is for you to complete it and weigh it yourself.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2011 11:14am by Banalaty
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#7 Sep 23 2011 at 1:37 AM Rating: Decent
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95 relics had ODD/ODT proc rate boosted btw. ODD is now 20% and ODT is now 13.5% 13% (13% ODT is equal to 20% ODD) Basically relics just got the equivalent of empyrean lvl 1 aftermath that's always on.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2011 4:41am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#8 Sep 24 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I better get on my VW. My new job has screwed up my playtime, but boosted ODD ftw. SO guess I know what i will be doing with all my free time for a bit.
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#9 Sep 24 2011 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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LordTrey wrote:
I better get on my VW. My new job has screwed up my playtime, but boosted ODD ftw. SO guess I know what i will be doing with all my free time for a bit.



Only applies to Relics not Empyreans.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#10 Oct 12 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
Didn't want to make a thread, but what's the general balance of power Mandau vs. Twashtar? Just curious.
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#11 Oct 12 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Decent
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It's now confirmed that lvl 95 Empyrean upgrade is only what's written on the weapon. No boost to aftermath or WS damage, just more DMG and an extra +2 to the base stat.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#12 Oct 13 2011 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
what's the general balance of power Mandau vs. Twashtar? Just curious.


On paper they are really very, very close. Similar DPS (Man has 1 more damage, same delay). Rudra=3.0 ftp, 60% dex. Mercy=3.0ftp, 60% str. Aftermath comparable to mandau normal proc. Mercy has 25% bonus damage, rudra has higher potential to start with.

Rudra has more potential epeen damage because stacking with SATA overlaps more dex gear than str so gear is more cohesive than stacking str/dex making gear more efficient. Also FTP rises with TP over 100 unlike mercy. +15 dex on SA etc.

At this point in the game, they perform similarly, they 'play' similarly (because the WS are so similar) and one can now legitimately argue they take similar resources to aquire (1500 metal plates bumps up twash to relic level effort on top of everything else).

Twash has higher spike damage, but a little more finicky with the need to keep aftermath up while mandau is a little more flexible because of the weak aftermath, but lower WS damage so you are freed up to use evis more often when its better.

I wouldnt loose any sleep worrying about 'picking' the wrong one and regretting it. They both are so similar its not worth worrying about.
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#13 Oct 13 2011 at 10:00 AM Rating: Default
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You forgot Mandau's +35 attack, fairly certain at 95 Mandau has the edge if not attack capped since Twash got nothing but base and 2 dex at 95.

Edited, Oct 13th 2011 1:00pm by Neisan
#14 Oct 13 2011 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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Just a small fix, but rudra has 3.25 ftp at 100.

And another edge we could give RS is its ftp growth too~
#15 Oct 13 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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Methinks ~40% ODD more than makes up for that :P the ~13% triple proc is equivalent to only 26% ODD rate.

To TLDR it: I would imagine that Twash pulls ahead so long as aftermath is maintained. Its WS is a little better, the ODD aftermath is far more powerful than the damage procs on mandau and enough to make up for 1 base damage and 35 atk easily and probably the (minor if i understand) crit rate aftermath on mandau.

Which leads me to me previous statement. Twash, i feel, has a little more potential, but its more finicky because it requires the aftermath to really get there. Mandau is less dependant on any human factors and therefore a little more reliable because it performs well regardless of human error.

Once you factor in human error, they might as well be clones.
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Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

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#16 Oct 13 2011 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
Methinks ~40% ODD more than makes up for that :P the ~13% triple proc is equivalent to only 26% ODD rate.

To TLDR it: I would imagine that Twash pulls ahead so long as aftermath is maintained. Its WS is a little better, the ODD aftermath is far more powerful than the damage procs on mandau and enough to make up for 1 base damage and 35 atk easily and probably the (minor if i understand) crit rate aftermath on mandau.

Which leads me to me previous statement. Twash, i feel, has a little more potential, but its more finicky because it requires the aftermath to really get there. Mandau is less dependant on any human factors and therefore a little more reliable because it performs well regardless of human error.

Once you factor in human error, they might as well be clones.


However Mandau is hands down better if you can't SATA and have to use Dancing Edge or Eviceration. Also, assuming Coruscanti turns out to be awesome you'll have to give up TP bonus offhand on Twastar to use it which puts Rudra's behind Mercy Stroke at 100% TP in that scenario. Dual wielded MS on 90/95 Mandau is fTP 5.0 vs 4.25 at 100% TP for dual wielded Rudra's (the 25% damage multiplier affects the offhand hit and any multi hit procs in the WS)

I have a feeling that Mandau is going to get another boost at 99 while Twastar is going to just be more DEX and DMG. SE hinted on the official forum that they will be adding something new (as opposed to buffing existing properties) to relics and mythics at level 99.

Of course I also have a feeling that they're going to ask for another 10k currency at 99, or if not that then something equally difficult.



Edited, Oct 13th 2011 7:46pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#17 Oct 14 2011 at 2:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Coruscanti has been found out to be a typo and is only crit rate +5% on the JP client
#18 Oct 14 2011 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, Twash is heavily dependant on aftermath, although with TP dagger, it stands up just fine to evis/DE without stacking. There are still other little things like TP bonus WOTG earring that can be used to beef it up to ~4.5 DW at 100TP+overflow TP we all get, but it still is 'generally' going to come down to the ability to use all of Twashes potential which depends on situation and human error as you described.

Basically, if you have the option to spam EFFECTIVE rudras and keep aftermath up without gimping yourself, Twash should be gravy. If you can never use Rudra/Mercy then Mandau wins hands down. Somewhere in the middle (where real people actually play :P) they should be the realistic performance. This could swing either way.

Honestly, unless SE makes some rather drastic change to either relic or empy weapons at 99, im comfortable enough saying its to close to realistically call so long as both are used intelligently to focus on their strengths and minimize weaknesses. The specific situation and person behind it will determine which would get the edge. We could do some elaborate modeling to factor in everything and come up with a winner, but i cant imagine it would be by enough to care and it impacts so few people i cant be bothered. Hell, it may be as simple as "Elvs go mandau for str, mithra go twash for dex" and leave it at that :P
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#19 Oct 14 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
Slightly more poignant than coming down to race, DNC is on Twashtar and not Mandau. Since DNC inherits a good deal of the light class armor THF has, chances are you either already have it or could have it within two weeks, giving you two jobs empy'd out not one.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 1:34pm by tertoonetwothreefour
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#20 Oct 14 2011 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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buddyslack wrote:
Coruscanti has been found out to be a typo and is only crit rate +5% on the JP client


No it has "occasionally deals severe damage" in addition to "Critical hit rate +5%" The typo was that they left out the critical hit rate in the NA/EU client.

Edited, Oct 14th 2011 8:59pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#21 Oct 22 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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If you can't get either relic or empyrean, I suggest you go for the Walk of Echoes version.

My ls leader said, when I mentioned that I was doing woe for the weapon, that our linkshell had 65 people and if I wanted I should go for the real thing. I told him that I play 2-3x a week for 1-2 hours, I don't think people would nicely come to my help every time I logged in.

I spent 3 weeks in walk of echoes. I was extremely unlucky with coins of birth, I got 60+ of everything else. However, I did get my weapon and in a colibri party I was able to get these numbers:

7857 SA Rudra's Storm. If you could SAWS or TAWS, the damage was a very consistent ~~5k dmg.

Yes I could pull 5k eviscerations if I wanted but the damage wasn't as consistent as a SA rudra's storm. Obviously it isn't that great for abyssea since solo ws plus a SA or TA would be more damage over SAWS or TAWS. However, this weapon gives me an immense edge outside abyssea as it's a really strong ftp, 1 hit ws with high mods that I didn't have to worry one bit about acc if I had to TAWS or SAWS.

I have to say that I am extremely happy with the outcome.
#22 Oct 29 2011 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I was looking for a post about mercy vs rudra's and found this one. As i think they are similar and maybe is a question of playstyle pick one or another but i'm still not happy with the answer. Someone mention that Twash get more advantage from equip since is 60% DEX and stack with SA equip getting the max potential of the both SA and WS and Mercy is STR 60% and that hurts if you want use it with SA. However, there is new equip that gives both, STR and DEX like Aias Bonnet and Ocelomeh Harness.

Ok i'll try to make the question w/o mess up all with my poor inglish. Let's imagine I have +50 dex on my SA build (is a ramdon number not start to arguin about if i'm gimp or pimp -_-) ofc if i have to sacrifice 25 dex to add 25 STR for Mercy i'm boosted the WS but gimped the SA and it not happens with Rudra's, but what about if i'm able to keep those 50DEX and add the 25 STR? then will be Mercy better than Rudra's? forget thinks like "if you are albe to keep the aftermatch" just WS or SAWS cause i'll will use it in a lot of different scenarios and I'll never know if i'll be able to keep aftermatch up or not or anything else.

And the million dolar question. What about have both? :P
#23 Oct 29 2011 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Vodak wrote:
However, there is new equip that gives both, STR and DEX like Aias Bonnet and Ocelomeh Harness.


Hecatomb set says hi.




Edited, Oct 29th 2011 9:39pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#24 Oct 31 2011 at 2:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Vodak wrote:
However, there is new equip that gives both, STR and DEX like Aias Bonnet and Ocelomeh Harness and w/o a ridiculous amount of slow+ (fixed).


No matter how many times i check it, body still gives only STR.

Edited, Oct 31st 2011 4:30pm by Vodak
#25 Nov 26 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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HQ augment is guaranteed dex. Also, slow doesn't affect weapon skills.

Edited, Nov 26th 2011 10:17pm by Deadgye
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#26 Nov 28 2011 at 3:19 AM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote:
HQ augment is guaranteed dex. Also, slow doesn't affect weapon skills.

Edited, Nov 26th 2011 10:17pm by Deadgye


Yes, it does give DEX as an augment, which would class it as new equip, since augmenting sky gear is somewhat "new".

Also, from what I see, 3 DEX is the max, so STR+12 DEX+3 compared to Ocelomeh's STR+11 DEX+11...
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#27 Nov 28 2011 at 6:42 AM Rating: Good
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I believe it's possible tgo get +6 dex. However none of the options compare to Toci's Harness with its massive dex, str, accuracy/attack AND DA rate to boot. Of course it's a rare reward from high tier voidwatch so it's damn near impossible to get atm, but that's the best mercy body in game atm.

Edited, Nov 28th 2011 7:43am by Melphina
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#28 Nov 28 2011 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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FYI its also the best unstacked rudra's body.
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#29 Nov 29 2011 at 7:53 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd think that body would be best for just about anything concerning a weapon skill. Probably for solo SA as well? 13str 2dex 10atk 3da vs 5%crit?
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#30 Nov 29 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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Well with lokis 11 dex and agi (agi does still matter for TA/TAWS :P) it is only 2 dex, 13str, 10atk, 3 DA vs 5 crit damage and 11 agi.

(Assuming Fstr isnt capped or its moot)
SA: 2dex=2 damage. 13str=4 damage (once in a blue moon 5). so 2dex damage(benefits from AF3 boost)~6 damage vs 5% crit damage.

In my gear for SA with twash and ~7fstr: (intentionally leaving the 10th place for dex after AF to account for an 'avg' bonus using AF3+2 hands instead of tiered bonus that would only be specific to my dex levels)
Loki:(7fstr)
196 dex*1.2=235.2
(237+Weapon+Fstr)=290.2 base damage for crit.
13% crir boost=327.926

Toci:(11.25 fstr)
198 dex*1.2=237.6
(237+Weapon+Fstr)=296.85 base damage for crit.
8% Crit boost=320.598

Basically the 16-17 atk has to make up ~2.29% damage (which is harder on a crit because of the free Pdif boost than a normal hit). 16-17 atk for me vs hypothetical 450 def mob is +0.037 boost to Pdif. So on a crit, i would need a base Pdif (pre crit) of 0.61 for toci to beat loki on SA. Thats pretty rough.

If my base atk is higer, toci fares worse because that 16-17 atk isnt as big a part of my atk (ie bard buffs etc. Non % based buffs). Or if mob has much higher def then toci's wont raise Pdif as much for the same reason. Its a smaller number drowning in big atk/def numbers making less impact. Of course the opposite is true as well. Less smaller atk and def numbers your working with the more 16-17 will change things.
________________________________________________________________________

Anyway, thats just an example for SA. SA loki still holds up unless your pdif is really abysmal (0.6 is dang bad). SA WS is a little more complex and depends more heavily on what WS you use. Stacked rudras is best case for lokis as nearly the whole thing is crit damage so 5% is an epic bonus. DE on the farthest extreme because it cant crit past teh stacked version at all and str/dex on toci applies 6 times. Evis in the middle. I havent worked those out specifically, and honestly not sure where the toci/loki watershed is.

Also TAWS loki has more weight to consider. 11agi and the crit damage is no slouch on TAWS. I cant imagine, for example, tocis beating loki for TARudra. But TADE it probably would.

Anyway, my 2c. Someone would need to math out or jack the spreadsheet to test all the SA/TAWS combos for toci vs loki. But for SA/TA alone, loki should be sitting pretty. 5% boost on the entire SATA is really, really powerful.

Edited, Nov 29th 2011 11:54am by Banalaty
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#31 Nov 29 2011 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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Without doing much math, I would say on SA+RS if you are using assassin's charge they would probably come out pretty close to even. If you don't know if you will be doing a triple attack though, I would consider sticking to the crit damage + on loki's. A four hit RS with +17 attack and 1.0 base pdif gives a bonus of 3.2% damage. You are also forgetting that at a maximum loki's giving you only 4.4% increased damage on a critical hit, and that is only if you are using no other pieces of +crit damage gear or atmas. Haven't played since august, so I don't know if no atmas is regular.

Edit again: I see you accounted for the base of 8% crit damage + in your math, so you did account for it, but your commentary doesn't specify that.

Edited, Nov 29th 2011 4:34pm by Meldi
#32 Dec 02 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
To respond to the topic at hand I'm gonna say that yes they are more then worth it. If you love playing as THF, DNC or BRD then by all means make the weapons. In my opinion THF would benefit from both relic and empyrean. DNC of course would benefit from empyrean and I haven't done any tests on my BRD with my empyrean yet but when I do I'll post back here on that. I would say if you have the will, time, help and gil make that Mandau. It's extra poison is amazing not to mention it hits like a truck. Rudra's Storm needs a little to make it shine but when done properly it's a good weaponskill as well. Like most things in this game you just have to tweak it a bit to get the most out of it. I've noticed when using Rudra's Storm people on my server bash it because it's not what I like to call a "out of the box" weaponskill(WS).
That meaning you can't just use it any kind of way and hit like 4k damage being lazy and not gear swapping or using sneak/trick attack. Just my two cents.
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#33 Dec 05 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I actually enjoy Twashtar on my DNC... Just stats on the dagger itself is great. The Aftermath is also fun especially when AF3 augment kicks in at the same time (800-1000 crit hit) haha Not to mention Rudra gives DNC 2 other ways to make Darkness
Rudra's Storm <-> Evisercation
and if climactic and NFR is up:
Climactic Flourish -> Rudra's Storm > Rudra's Storm = Darkness.


Or....just for fun.....
sub /sam and do double darkness by yourself :)

#34 Dec 17 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Default
Thief's Knife
*****
15,049 posts
Hope you like killing Arch Dynamis Lord 500-1000 times because that's what you have to do to upgrade to lvl 99 Mandau.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#35 Jan 05 2012 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
3 posts
What are your opinions on offhanding Emp/Relic while using the other as main? Which situations would favor using one over the other? I have a Twashtar and am getting close to finishing the currency for a relic. I've had my eye on Mandau for a while now but seeing the end stats, even at 99, make me hesitant to go through with it. Remember when it had the highest DPS at 75?

Now before the "make what you enjoy" advice, I do love THF, I play it 99% of the time. However we havn't started VW yet so I don't know if that will change. I appreciate any advice ^^

For what it's worth, other weapons I'm contemplating on making instead of Mandau are: Bravura, Gun (I have Gandiva) or lolAxe (but only if they make an exclusive pet or something)
#36 Jan 16 2012 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,049 posts
lvl 99 Mandau has further increased OAT and Mercy stroke dmg +40% lvl 99 emps only get increased DMG and delay. Mandau is now clearly better than Twastar.

Edited, Jan 16th 2012 8:38pm by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#37 Jan 16 2012 at 6:38 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
928 posts
Btw a tip on the emp weapon. Throngi canyon sucks! Just sucks. I wish it would go die in a firery hell.

That being said if you have a friend that is doing polearm or H2h you can farm gold boxes each night for 3 hours. We would farm one night, had 5 people. Would pop after we got 3 sets each of Chloris and the worm. Next day pop and kill. Then a 3rd day back to farming and finish the pop sets of the last 2 people and farm till we were at a point of wasting pops and repeat.

If you have ls people can let them leech sub jobs and have them hold pops for you so they dont go to waste, this works really well.

The nice thing is that h2h/polearm is in attowa. As is dagger/GAxe. So you can stay together farming and achieve both there as well. this stage is actually super fast in comparison and you can get alot of +2 gear.

I was at a point that I didnt need any +2 and would get people to come down and I would have random people hold pops and I would Kill the nms before they left and let them lot the +2. You would be surprised how many people dont have +2 and are just like you without alot of playtime.
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