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#52 Jun 13 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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Not to add to the flames Eaglestrike, but Nebo1 also specifically said that he is using RR/GH/SS for atmas, which means that he doesn't have 35% TA rate. At most he has probably 16%, since with a Twash/Daka he probably isn't offhanding a Triplus dagger. On WS he is probably still at 10% due to equipment swapping.

For my merits, I have 5/5 Feint, 4/5 AC, 1/5 AS. Personally I don't use either AC or AS very often. The best utility I have found for AS was recently when I was low manning Blanga, I would occasionally get his attack buff from him. Quite often his very next TP move would be Triumphant Roar again. Don't get me wrong, I much preferred that to Terror Eye/claw attack of drainage. There are arguments for both, I am seriously considering dropping my AS merit myself. The only reason I haven't is I don't really ride my AC timer either. Ambush is totally useless to me as I am quite often the first one to the hate cap on whatever we are fighting.
#53 Jun 13 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Dispelling mobs never lasts.... that's why you have to KEEP dispelling them. And aura steal just isn't capable of doing that in a practical manner.


My conclusion exactly.

One has the choice between two nifty/fun sub-par options. I chose 5/5 feint 5/5 assassin's charge because I like damage, and at least its guaranteed to work every 5min.

I look at it like this, (with a grain of salt):

At 4/5 (7:30min) ac it would stack every 4th feint.

At 5/5 (5min) ac it stacks every 3rd feint with room/time for positioning etc.

That's (insert some significant percentage) more super-ws's.

Steal/Despoil/Aura Steal just plain aren't functional at 5min recast for the tiny benefit they give, I boycott them except for claiming purposes (opinion).
#54 Jun 13 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Skubsteve wrote:
SES wrote:
3) In such a case you either need a dispeller and you're still helping them out, OR you just removed 65(?) defense from the creature, I do believe that's more than an acid bolt does, hrm.


That's like the 3rd thing in this thread you've said about acid bolts that leads me to believe you don't know how they even work.

The acid bolt effect REMOVES a defensive buff and APPLIES a defensive debuff. It overwrites. So it removes the 65 (whatever) defense and then some. They can be used as often as needed. Given using aura steal vs. an acid bolt for the case of a defensive boost, you would be better served using an acid bolt (subject to terms and conditions).


This shows you don't know what is going on. There are different classifications of buffs. There's a Defense Boost buff (like Cocoon) and a Defense Down debuff (like acid bolts). These buffs are mutually exclusive. But then there is protect. It's a separate defense boost. You can have a defense down effect on you while you still have protect, go out and try it.

My comment was to make fun that Melphina was claiming removing Protect IV was useless, when just above it was stated how amazing acid bolts are, when mobs only have 400-450 defense (unless they're PLD creatures and such and many mobs may still be in the 350-400 range) and acid bolts would only be worth 40-50 defense loss when protect IV is 65 defense or so.
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#55 Jun 13 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
My comment was to make fun that Melphina was claiming removing Protect IV was useless, when just above it was stated how amazing acid bolts are, when mobs only have 400-450 defense (unless they're PLD creatures and such and many mobs may still be in the 350-400 range) and acid bolts would only be worth 40-50 defense loss when protect IV is 65 defense or so.


Anything that can use protect on itself is going to keep applying it if you remove it. But also, things that can use protect also usually have more than one buff. You can't choose what you get, and you can only attempt to use it once every 5 minutes. And if the monster has items you have a chance of getting those instead.

I've always thought it was a good idea. They just didn't implement it properly. Instead they crippled it to the point that it's just a Gimmick to me.
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#56 Jun 13 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Their argument though is that with acid bolts you can take 45-50 def from every mob, but Aura steal only allows you to do it AT MOST every 3-5 mobs that you fight, and even then, it depends on if aura steal takes the "right" buff.
#57 Jun 13 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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SES wrote:
This shows you don't know what is going on.


No, your ****** argument is still ******.

Protect IV is 55 defense.

420 is the given def for "average" mobs (from Kinematics comparison thread here).

475 * .125 = 59 (truncated)

So still use acid bolts and stop talking out of your behind.


Also, Nebo and Meldi gave the other practical reasons in the meantime.
#58 Jun 13 2011 at 2:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Nebo1 wrote:
Anything that can use protect on itself is going to keep applying it if you remove it. But also, things that can use protect also usually have more than one buff. You can't choose what you get, and you can only attempt to use it once every 5 minutes. And if the monster has items you have a chance of getting those instead.


They will not likely be applying it again right away. That's not how mobs work in FFXI. They only cast every 15s or so, and somewhat randomly between their spellbook of which to cast.

And did they buff acid bolts since back in the day? You guys speak as if you just shoot once and it has defense down forever. How they used to work is it required a gearset to have a good chance to land. Then you needed the proc to also actually go off. And then it would also wear every so often. Did they change this like sneak/invis and make it a set duration and high proc rate or something? Because if not, I'm still not seeing it worth losing 15 inventory slots and a bunch of melee swings to keep them up.

Also, you can still acid bolt while aura stealing stuff. So it's not like this is Aura Steal vs xbow usage.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:41pm by SirEaglestrike
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#59 Jun 13 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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They proc well on most things that aren't specifically wind resistant. Racc gear is required on high level mobs but we have plenty of that.

They last for a minute or so.
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#60 Jun 13 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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Now that our primary merit prey is not colibri, Acid bolts are back to nearly 100% proc for me when I use them. Just like before the buff lasts about 30-60 seconds for me, which is usually long enough to do what needs done. NMs are a different story, as they have always been, but even some of them aren't bad to use acid bolts on. I mostly use my Raider's Boomerang though, it is just less of a hassle.
#61 Jun 13 2011 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Meldi wrote:
Now that our primary merit prey is not colibri, Acid bolts are back to nearly 100% proc for me when I use them. Just like before the buff lasts about 30-60 seconds for me, which is usually long enough to do what needs done. NMs are a different story, as they have always been, but even some of them aren't bad to use acid bolts on. I mostly use my Raider's Boomerang though, it is just less of a hassle.


And this is the main place Aura Steal is useful, against NM's, who have no item to steal and you may or may not have another dispel around. And NM's have a large variety of buffs which impact things in some way. Not just evasion/defense boosts but accuracy boosts, attack boosts, magic attack boosts, etc.

Against normal creatures using consumables isn't worth the cost, imo. I just go /dnc to save on shihei too. I wouldn't care for acid bolts here as the mobs die so fast anyway it really does not matter.
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#62 Jun 13 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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You are just going to have to accept that a lot of thieves wont agree with you eaglestrike. 1 dispel per NM battle isn't as "useful" as you say. Despite that, there is really only one crippling buff nowadays, evasion bonus. With abyssea so crit heavy, yeah def buffs slow things down, but you don't even really have to dispel it anymore. Evasion buffs are much more potent, and to tell the truth, feint does much more to combat that than aura steal does. And on a much shorter timer too.

Other thieves have wieghed the cost of going 5/5 AC over 4/5 AC 1/5 AS, and they have found the loss of AS acceptable. Others have not. Both are valid paths to chose, and neither will significantly impact the outcome of battle.
#63 Jun 13 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Default
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I've long since accepted that people do things poorly. But I still let them know as such.
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#64 Jun 13 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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Just because their decision is different from yours does not mean they, nor you, have chosen poorly.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:25pm by Meldi
#65 Jun 13 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I maxed Sneak Attack, Triple Attack, Feint and went 1-4 on Aura Steal-Assassin's Charge.

Why? Because I wanted to. (and if you try to argue semantics about what is going to do more damage, I'll change to Warrior and beat my own Thief damage no matter what thief merits or gear I have.)
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#66 Jun 13 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Default
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Meldi wrote:
Just because their decision is different from yours does not mean they, nor you, have chosen poorly.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:25pm by Meldi


Sometimes this is true, sometimes it is not. Some things are grey areas, some are not. Typically, there's what you want to do which is your decision and then there is what is best, which is typically a clear cut thing.
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#67 Jun 13 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
Meldi wrote:
Just because their decision is different from yours does not mean they, nor you, have chosen poorly.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:25pm by Meldi


Sometimes this is true, sometimes it is not. Some things are grey areas, some are not. Typically, there's what you want to do which is your decision and then there is what is best, which is typically a clear cut thing.


This is one of those instances where the decision is not one of those clear cut things. Which is what the other posters are trying to get you to understand. Many of them have tried both, and acknowledge that your point has some validity, however, you refuse to give any credence to their experience with both. The fact of the matter is, you are the one being narrow minded, not them.
#68 Jun 13 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Meldi wrote:
SirEaglestrike wrote:
Meldi wrote:
Just because their decision is different from yours does not mean they, nor you, have chosen poorly.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:25pm by Meldi


Sometimes this is true, sometimes it is not. Some things are grey areas, some are not. Typically, there's what you want to do which is your decision and then there is what is best, which is typically a clear cut thing.


This is one of those instances where the decision is not one of those clear cut things. Which is what the other posters are trying to get you to understand. Many of them have tried both, and acknowledge that your point has some validity, however, you refuse to give any credence to their experience with both. The fact of the matter is, you are the one being narrow minded, not them.


Not really, there are people here being illogical about it. Nebo1, who originally posted it, has admitted throughout this thread that he now "hates" aura steal, after having it merited fully the whole time. And there are other people here who "hate" Aura Steal or are "boycotting" Aura Steal. That's not logical and doesn't make any sense. You really think the Devs are going to see that a handful of people don't use a group II merit and will alter it? Hi2u Warcry merits.
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#69 Jun 13 2011 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think anyone here is arguing for cat2 change.

Thieves get 5 Triple Attack and 1+ Feint, then whatever else they please according to their playstyle; End of Thief Merit Story.

<<<

5 TA
5 Flee
5 AC
5 Feint

<<< Very Happy Thief.
#70 Jun 13 2011 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
Meldi wrote:
SirEaglestrike wrote:
Meldi wrote:
Just because their decision is different from yours does not mean they, nor you, have chosen poorly.

Edited, Jun 13th 2011 4:25pm by Meldi


Sometimes this is true, sometimes it is not. Some things are grey areas, some are not. Typically, there's what you want to do which is your decision and then there is what is best, which is typically a clear cut thing.


This is one of those instances where the decision is not one of those clear cut things. Which is what the other posters are trying to get you to understand. Many of them have tried both, and acknowledge that your point has some validity, however, you refuse to give any credence to their experience with both. The fact of the matter is, you are the one being narrow minded, not them.


Not really, there are people here being illogical about it. Nebo1, who originally posted it, has admitted throughout this thread that he now "hates" aura steal, after having it merited fully the whole time. And there are other people here who "hate" Aura Steal or are "boycotting" Aura Steal. That's not logical and doesn't make any sense. You really think the Devs are going to see that a handful of people don't use a group II merit and will alter it? Hi2u Warcry merits.


This is true. I don't like the ability (or rather, the way it was implemented).

Having said that, you are praising it with usefulness that it really does not have in all practicality. It's a gimmick. It steals something. Its cute.

It's not one of those things you tell someone they are a fool for not meriting. That....is foolish.
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#71 Jun 13 2011 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Nebo1 wrote:
This is true. I don't like the ability (or rather, the way it was implemented).

Having said that, you are praising it with usefulness that it really does not have in all practicality. It's a gimmick. It steals something. Its cute.

It's not one of those things you tell someone they are a fool for not meriting. That....is foolish.


You're being called a fool because of the huge difference there is between 1/5 AS 4/5 AC and 5/5 AC 0/5 AS. The absorb part of AS is pure lol and personal choice, just like having more than 1/5 AC is. But every THF should at least unlock AS, AC and Feint. You used to "need" to max Feint but that is questionable now as this thread has brought up.

But you still go 5/5 TA, 1 in Feint/AC/AS and the rest is your personal choice. The advantage of AS is much bigger than the other things to spend merits on.
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#72 Jun 13 2011 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
The advantage of AS is much bigger than the other things to spend merits on.


lol. It really really isn't.
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#73 Jun 13 2011 at 10:54 PM Rating: Good
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This is getting really overblown.

For all those who are so dead set on 5/5 AC+5/5 feint I ask you this:

How much (in percent) does going from 4/5 AC to 5/5 AC raise your OVERALL damage?

Think about that for a minute. REALLY think about it.

This means that under PERFECT conditions you get 3 ACs every 15 minutes vs 2 ACs at 4/5. That is ONE more triple every 15 min. 1 more triple that you have a 10 to ~40% chance of happening ANYWAY (depending on gear/abyssea or not/atmas chosen etc).

ONE triple more every 15 minutes (that could have happened anyway) under perfect conditions. This means:

*You are fighting a mob every time it comes up
*You have TP EVERY time it comes up
*You have SA/TA up (if you are stacking this WS) when it comes up
*You can actually WS on the dot when its up. (not holding back waiting for procs. Not spaming cyclone to get red, not holding back for hate or any other reason)
*(Random other reasons people dont/cant WS when they want)

Comon people. This is not some HULK SMASH huge bonus to your damage. This is a single bit of oomph that can naturally happen anyway going from 2 up to 3 every FIFTEEN minutes IF you spam it every 5 min.

What are you REALLY giving up by dropping to a 4/5 from a 5/5? Everyone who is pro-5/5 is justifying AC/Feint based on the power of AC/Feint as if you cannot use it at ALL with 4/5.

dropping to 4/5 in AC is completely unnoticable in a parse. It is really not that big a deal people. You will NEVER notice AC it in any parse (feint you could if you are on monsterously evasive mobs for long periods which is rare and wierd). Particularly if you factor in that NO ONE uses it every 5 min on the dot. Say what you want here, not a soul in this thread spams it non stop based on all the reasons above and more. And you can and will triple anyway quite often.

Having done gear/weapon/DPS/WS analysis by the numbers in this forum for years based around thf, (and being extremely pro-ThfDD as long as I have played) i can tell you with absolute certainty, the difference between 4/5 and 5/5 is entirely in your head. It is completely unnoticeable in the grand scheme of damage under ideal conditions. Toss in a practical situation and it might as well not exist. It wont make a dent in anything but your psyche.

As much as SES is overstating the benifits of AS by a bit, some of the posts about AC in here are a complete fantasy by comparison.

4/5-5/5 will not have ANY noticable impact (even in a parse) on overall damage in an in-game scenario beyond a placebo to make you feel better about it. There is virutally no tangible benefit to it. Seriously.

Just stop and think about what you really 'sacrifice' dropping a single merit out of feint/AC before you just dismiss AS like a redheaded stepchild. No parse will ever miss it.

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 12:57am by Banalaty
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#74 Jun 14 2011 at 1:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty,

Its the same way with AS, it offers like 0 benefit in the practical game. Today I was soling Haz--- whatever on dnc and he put up Thorn Song and I was like, oh sh*t! I could have used AS here. But... I was on Dnc, so I just turned around for 20sec and it went away... turning around had a (20sec) vs (5min) more utility than Aura Steal LOL.

However, when I want to dot my i's and cross my t's for a ws, im 2:30min more likely (or whatever) to have everything lined up which is a hellofalot better for me when I never ever need AS. Sure some day stars may align and all mages dispel timers are down and the tank has 30hp and a spikes was just put up and I could have saved the alliance with my super secret whoa its so lucky the thief had a dispel!

I mean, that's how I'd quantify AS's usefulness, and then I'd think that that ally wasn't very prepared to win the battle on a thief 5min AS. How do you quantify AS? Solo its got too long a timer, and in party you have mages...

I personally understand your point which is why I take all this with a "grain of salt."





Edited, Jun 14th 2011 3:40am by Shirakx
#75 Jun 14 2011 at 2:05 AM Rating: Default
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Shirakx wrote:
Banalaty,

Its the same way with AS, it offers like 0 benefit in the practical game. Today I was soling Haz--- whatever on dnc and he put up Thorn Song and I was like, oh sh*t! I could have used AS here. But... I was on Dnc, so I just turned around for 20sec and it went away... turning around had a (20sec) vs (5min) more utility than Aura Steal LOL.

However, when I want to dot my i's and cross my t's for a ws, im 2:30min more likely (or whatever) to have everything lined up which is a hellofalot better for me when I never ever need AS. Sure some day stars may align and all mages dispel timers are down and the tank has 30hp and a spikes was just put up and I could have saved the alliance with my super secret whoa its so lucky the thief had a dispel!

I mean, that's how I'd quantify AS's usefulness, and then I'd think that that ally wasn't very prepared to win the battle on a thief 5min AS. How do you quantify AS? Solo its got too long a timer, and in party you have mages...

I personally understand your point which is why I take all this with a "grain of salt."





Edited, Jun 14th 2011 3:40am by Shirakx


...

Are you serious? You just stated that if you had AS, you would've been able to melee for 20s. That's a good bit of damage and practically a whole other weapon skill. But you'd give up the chance to do that to triple attack one weapon skill more every 2.5min?

You are confusing here though. In one line you talk about soloing, in the next you talk about mages in your alliance. Well, I guess that isn't confusing, in a low-man setting AS is useful, so you use that as your example to make fun of AS, in the alliance setting AS doesn't have as much utility, so you use that to show it is "useless".

Never mind that super crazy stars have to align situation where you're soloing on your THF and you do NOT have to turn around for 20s because you just dispelled the spikes!
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#76 Jun 14 2011 at 2:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes Eaglestrike, but 1 min later or less it put up spikes again... its like you're wearing some sort of filtered glasses.

Also, don't twist my words, reminds me of a jack-in-the-box. Most people here are more mature and wised-up these days.

You can have the soapbox, it really doesn't matter to me what other thief merit and something as trivial as AS vs AC isn't game-breaking enough to drag on.
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