WS set up helpFollow

What is the value of the element belts compared to Cuchulain's or even Warwolf?

As to the OP, get some Tumbler Trunks instead of the Bragezenn (particularly with that -sTP).

Atheling is better than Cavaros almost all the time. It's the answer to almost anything for DD.

EDIT: Don't know why ammo isn't included but Qirmiz Tathlum.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 4:40pm by Neisan

20 attack and 3 DA. Last time I looked at it Atheling was better for overall damage even if critical hit damage was uncapped (especially for thf since they rarely /war and have berserk). 30 RR 5 Loki's 5 Qirmiz 8 trait and that's 48 crit hit damage... Cavaros is only giving 2 crit hit damage and easily loses.



Edited, Feb 22nd 2011 6:51pm by Neisan

I think Kalisa's point in leaving out the 3% DA was that it's not as worthwhile as you'd normally think.

Say each hit on 6hit (5 hits + one offhand) WS does 100dmg. You can only have max 8 attacks per WS. Assume 100% Accuracy.

With 25% TA and 10% DA, and two oppertunities to DA/TA, saying each hit on a WS does 100 damage, over 100 WSs:
No TA/DA: 60000 damage (100*600)
25% TA: (56.25*600)+(43.75*800)= 68750, +8750 Increase
10% DA: (81*600)+(18*700)+(1*800)= 62000, +2000 Increase
Therefor, adding both DA and TA should be (8750+2000) = +10750 right?

Wrong, DA checks before TA and if DA procs on that hit, it means TA (which would add more damage than DA) can't proc. So actually the numbers look like this: (45.56*600)+(13.5*700)+(40.94*800)= 69538. So actually the 10% DA has not added +2000 damage over those 100 WSs (at each hit doing 100dmg) it's only added +788 damage, which is only about 40% of what you'd expect.

Essentially on 6 hit WSs like DE and Evis, the bonus from adding DA shouldn't just be calulated as a simple (New DA/Old DA = % increase). What you need to do is roughly (New DA/Old DA)*40% So for example, adding 10% DA ontop of 0% DA is not a 10% increase to damage in that WS, it's actually only about 4%.

To put this to actual equipment, say you're using Brutal Earring as your only source of DA during a WS. Adding 3% DA from Atheling would normally be an increase of 2.86% (108/105) but because of what I wrote above it's actually only a 1.14% increase, which a lot less.

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 1:25pm by Noodles

I think you might want take a look at this thread

I assumed 33% TA (Trait + Merits+Apoc+Raider+2 Head+Epona's) and 13% DA (Brutal+Epona's+Twilight (+Atheling 3%).

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 10:02am by Neisan

The problem is I have the attack alone beating Cavaros without berserk (attack isn't capped without buffs), even more so versus higher level targets.

No you don't.

First, you don't have a specific defense value or actual level attributed to any mob in abyssea. So you really don't have any idea what atk is really doing. Based on "guesses" on my own, mobs in abyssea have anywhere from 500 to 600 defense. This means that, if those guesses are right, 20 atk will give you anywhere from .033 cRatio (600 defense) to 0.040 (500 defense). Assuming that you have a base cRatio of 1.000, on a normal hit, attack will increase damage on your hit by 3.3 - 4%, on a critical hit, it is only increasing your damage by 1.65 - 2%. When youre base attack is higher, these numbers get lower.

Second, Cavaros Mantle adds to your damage After your cRatio has been taken into account. Which means on critical hits, Cavaros gives a relative cRatio bonus of 0.06 starting at cRatio 1.000. Now, this is only on critical hits, so it offers nothing on normal hits. But we are talking about abyssea with atmas that increase our critical hit chance on a WS that also increases our chance to crit.

Ok, some hypothetical situations.
Abyssea - RR atma, no other + crit rate gear or atmas, base cRatio 1.000, capped crit rate of 24% from stats/merits
Expected crit rate 100% TP Evisceration = ~64%
Expected crit damage up 38%
Expected mob defense = 600 (bonus from attack = 0.033 cRatio)
Base Damage = lets say 140 since I don't know how @ works now
Hits 6

Damage with +20 atk:
3.84 Crits + 2.16 Normal hits - 1820 Damage

Damage with 3% crit damage
3.84 Crits + 2.16 Normal hits - 1818 Damage

Essentially equal damage IF your cRatio is 1.000 and mobs have 600 defense. Now add GH atma to this.

Expected crit rate 100% TP Evisceration = ~84%

Damage with +20 atk:
5.04 Crits + 0.96 Normal hits - 2125 Damage

Damage with 3% crit damage
5.04 Crits + 0.96 Normal Hits - 2124 Damage

Again, essentially equal damage for both items in this completely hypothetical situation. So now you have some questions to answer.

1) Does the double attack matter? Noodles addressed that for the most part

2) what is the actual defense of mobs in abyssea? If it is higher than 600 then the bonus from atk is less than 0.033 cRatio. If it is lower than 600, #3 is important.

3) what is your actual cRatio? I am betting it is higher than 1.000

These two pieces are essentially the same if you don't account for the Double Attack. I feel that Atheling has a slight edge over Cavaros when accounting for the double attack.

Edit: Outside abyssea, Atheling should win handily.

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 10:22am by Meldi

Technically speaking, if we're talking stacked with SA, particularly since he has +2 hands, Nifty Mantle is the way to go. Obviously just for SA... but it will beat out Atheling and, apparently, Cavaros.

1) check the links above, latest tests are showing TA procing over DA, not the other way around. So Atheling has no impact on TA or negative effect on gear like AF3 +2 bonus or Triplus Dagger.

2) tldr version of what I did above, Atheling really only wins on attack alone when you are < 1.000 cRatio, having higher cRatio makes Cavaros much more attractive, and you probably have a higher cRatio than 1.000. The DA on Atheling is an added bonus which gives it a very slight edge on Cavaros, but they are both at most side grades. Personally, we have access to so much TA + DA gear and atmas, I would lean towards Cavaros still. But as I have niether I can't actually say that empirically.

They are so close that I wouldn't sweat it dude. With Atheling up, not down.

Edited, Feb 24th 2011 3:57pm by Meldi

You're right, I actually did read your posts and still wrote what I did

Memory lapse, brain fart, quickly trying to reply at work when not really paying attention, call it what you will..

For once, My apologies.