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Is The Thief Class DPS Worthy In This Game?Follow

#1 Nov 29 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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Hello.

I've played ALOT of MMOs (Most notably I played WoW for 4-5 years, and had only 1 main charicter. AWESOME Rogue class.) And I've been MMO clean for a good 4 months now. Well, my girlfriend wants to play a game together, and is trying to get me to play FFXI. My one rule for playing an MMO is that it has to have a Rogue/Thief/Mugger/Steath class. Now... Does the Thief class in this game have any DPS value? Or PVP value? How screwed will i be if i rolled a Thief?

Edited, Nov 29th 2010 7:43pm by WhiteTopHat
#2 Nov 29 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I would say THF can probably tear it up in Abyssea now if you've got Razed Ruin atma and bothered to quest Evisceration. Of course, if you're not familiar with the game, that probably went all over your head.

Anyway, prior to high level play ("high level" meaning like the situation I depicted above), you're not going to be one of the top DD classes out there. It will take some leveling before you start picking up the various abilities that will help you stand out (Sneak Attack @ 15, Trick Attack @ 30, Dancing Edge @ 56-60 somewhere I forget, Assassin trait @ 60 are the main ones I remember).

One thing you do have working for you, though, is that most non-Abyssea EXP groups try to target colibri (aka Toucan Sams), which take additional damage from piercing weapons, making a THF's daggers super-effective.
#3 Nov 29 2010 at 8:48 PM Rating: Good
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THF is an exceptional DD (damage dealer) at all levels of play (after 15). It does, however, take more work, gear and constant attention than most other DD's do.

The work is mainly running around a lot and in some cases, getting your party members to work with you. Your two most powerful DD abilities carry positional requirements. A lot of the bad Thieves that take up the job do not make full use of these (they can be a bit of a pain to land in large group settings).

Sneak attack requires that you be behind your target and trick attack requires there be a party/alliance member between you and your target.

It gets passive traits that make more treasure drop and has the highest evasion rating in the game, which you can use to solo/tank lots of notorious monsters for good drops later in the game.

When first starting it will seem slow (especially coming from WoW). There are a few mile stones that will see your strength increase greatly if you see them through. A FFXI addiction is like no other lol:

For your first 33ish levels you will actually be better off using crossbows, hand 2 hand weapons and swords due to lack of powerful dagger weaponskills to combine with sneak attack. Be sure you keep dagger skilled up though.

level 15 is when you first learn Sneak Attack and gain access to Acid bolts (For your crossbow. These give a defense down effect and are a very useful tool even at endgame)

level 30 you learn Trick Attack

level 33 you will learn the dagger weapon skil Viper Bite and you will know the power that is SATA Viper bite XD

level 60 you will recieve the job trait assassin which enhances trick attack and learn the weapon skill Dancing Edge. The job changes somewhat here, but for the better.

There are more but these are the most fundamental I think.

Thief is a lot of fun to play but it is one of those jobs you either love or hate. There are a LOT of BAD thieves that level the class just for the treasure hunter traits who have no idea how to deal damage. Consequently you will face a bit of a perception issue with the job in that regard. However, played well, a good Thief is a force to be recconed with. Able to deal lots of damage and avoid lots of damage at the same time.

Edited, Nov 29th 2010 10:06pm by ThiefKiller
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#4 Nov 29 2010 at 9:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Short answer is yes. Thf has a ton of damage potential.

BUT, it will take some serious work to get there. Thf needs a little more finesse to play and a LOT more gear to shine than many DDs. Most DDs just need a "TP set" and a "WS" set. TP set= gear you wear when you are just attacking a mob. WS set=Weapon skill set for doing powerful limit breaks or whatever you want to call them. Straight damage dealing classes can basically get these two things setup and call it a day.

Thf needs many additional sets of gear to maximize their abilities such as sneak attack and trick attack. Thf's 'weapon skills' also require more carefully constructed gearsets. Some jobs are just "stack as much strength as you can get for WS". We have to balance more stats and tweak our gear more to really push the envelope.

The other aspect is that most of Thf's "good" gear cannot be bought from the auction house so you have to invest some serious time to aquire the gear you need to perform well.

All that said, thf has TONS of damage potential. If it is geared well and played well you will stand out among most people. For all the extra effort it may take to really get up there, you are rewarded with a job that can do far more than just hit things. We are the most evasive class in teh game, manipulate the mobs attention, among other abilities AND can give any exclusively Damage Dealing class a run for their money doing it.

Excelling as a thf is more "work" to gear, more attentive to play, and requires a greater understanding of game mechanics (or following good advice well) than most DDs. But most here will tell you this makes thf far more rewarding to play.
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#5 Nov 30 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
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WhiteTopHat wrote:
Hello.

I've played ALOT of MMOs (Most notably I played WoW for 4-5 years, and had only 1 main charicter. AWESOME Rogue class.) And I've been MMO clean for a good 4 months now. Well, my girlfriend wants to play a game together, and is trying to get me to play FFXI. My one rule for playing an MMO is that it has to have a Rogue/Thief/Mugger/Steath class. Now... Does the Thief class in this game have any DPS value? Or PVP value? How screwed will i be if i rolled a Thief?

Edited, Nov 29th 2010 7:43pm by WhiteTopHat


I'll throw out my opinion, since it's a little different then everyone else here (and I'm not thief main, so my opinion isn't as biased as some :p).

First off FFXI isn't really a PVP game. Some people do it, most people don't.

There really isn't a stealth class like in many MMO's in FFXI. You don't sneak up, walk behind a monster and hit your backstab button. There is a mechanic where you can get some extra damage if you use an ability from behind, but it feels much different then most of the invisible stalker classes so many games have.

That being said thief does fair damage. Fair, but I don't see them topping any parses with equally geared heavy DD jobs. Thief mechanics don't work very well in the 18 person monster mash parties that have emerged since the abyssea expansion was released. The mechanic that thief does have is the ability to redirect hate onto a tank, or take it off a healer/nuker/another DD. But the parse topping wow thief doesn't exist in FFXI.

But there are different experiences in FFXI. FFXI thieves are good at soloing named monsters because they have extremely high evasion, and they have passive traits that increase the drops from things they fight. FFXI is also a completely different game then wow in that you don't have to bracket yourself into a single job. A single character can be every single job in the game, and all it takes is a quick trip to town to change what your active job is. With all the variety in the game you're bound to find one that you'll enjoy playing.
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#6 Nov 30 2010 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good
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Short answer : comparing to WoW's Rogue, THF won't match here.

As mentioned above, THF can do a lot of thing and shine in many things. But in the end when you compare only "Damage", it will fell against other Heavy DDs. That's the way of FFXI mechanics are set and that "we" (Thieves) have to struggle with.

For long answer, other above me covered most already. If "damage" is what you seek, THF isn't suited for you. If you're looking for more, you may find your pleasure.
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#7 Nov 30 2010 at 6:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Provided you're willing to do the actual work that is required thoughout the levels (i.e. not letting your Dagger skill fall behind for an instant, grabbing DEX+ and AGI+ items for Sneak/Trick Attacks), Thief can be a very strong melee job without even drawing attention from the target. The job itself doesn't rely on raw power like Dark Knight or Warrior, but on attack speed and spike damage by combining Sneak Attack (and later Assassin's Charge if you choose to acquire it through merit points) with various Weapon Skills.

Note: It would behoove you to actually learn the Evisceration Weapon Skill, as it is a required weapon skill for the final two WS DMG+10% Fusetto Magian trials (500x vs. Plantoids and killing blow x 300 vs. Lizards). It's not the absolute best WS, but worth the trouble of getting for that reason alone.
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#8 Nov 30 2010 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Currently, with abyssea being the focus of ffxi, and barring relic/empyrian weapon skills, eviceration is the best THF weaponskill in FFXI by a good margin.
And I don't see a WS (or any) fusseto being worth it for THF atm.






Edit: spelling

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 9:34am by LordTrey
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#9 Nov 30 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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in ffxi, thief trades some damage potential for utility. it should be mentioned how useful that utility will be as you progress through the game, especially for the first time.

thief can pick locks on treasure chests without spending tons of time looking for a key. having said that, that feature is woefully underused in this game, but the times it is used, it is very handy.

thief also has the highest evasion (both natural and potential) in the game by far. there is little use for this in 18 man alliances, but in low man and solo situations, which the game is trending towards, this is infinately useful.

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#10 Dec 01 2010 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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I don't understand why people still say thief isn't a top dd, because it definitely is. It's easier than ever to gear thief for greatness if you take a little time and learning the job is just practice. Thief is more technical than other DD's and it requires attention to detail, but if you aren't including empyrean weaponskills it's every bit as good as other DD's. Thief just deals its damage in a unique way. Most DD's go in and hack and slash with abilities suited to raising damage directly, but thief needs to utilize positioning to get the job done. Sneak Attack and Trick Attack do some SERIOUS DoT if you use them as your timers are up and can be stacked with weaponskills to boot. We get assassin at level 60 and if you can't land trick attack with 10 bodies clustered around an exp ally mob (seriously you have to be able to hit SOMEONE) then I don't know what to tell ya. I can land sneak attack pretty well even in an ally (Stack it with a weaponskill and use it in conjunction with hide or even hit a mob as it's being pulled to camp if you have to). If you can get your hands on the atma of the razed ruins and another good atma like stout arm or voracious violet then eviceration is one of if not THE strongest non relic/empyrean weaponskills in abyssea. Thief deals its damage through daggers that swing fast and a lot of powerful criticals. And you better believe it can deal just as much if not more damage than most other DD jobs provided you take the time to gear it properly and be attentive. Trust me, I know. I can out DD almost anyone with my thief, but I've gotten the best the game has to offer a thf including all appropriate abyssites and a powerful TP set. The potential is there, it just takes more effort to bring it out. It's very intensive on gear and attention, but if you play thief well it's a rewarding experience, and we are so much more than JUST DD (Treasure hunter, evasion, pulling, bolts, soloing, hate control, tanking and more). I love thief, it really has become an excellent job.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 10:18am by Melphina
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#11 Dec 01 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, a THF can be really strong and outperform a lot, really a lot of most DDs. That is correct, many here prove it many times.

The thing is, if you were dedicated to another Heavy DD job as you were for THF, this Heavy DD will outperform your THF. This game isn't fair.

And I won't agree with you, it require much more to be that effective on THF than on other job. As Banality mentioned. Most DD can live with a standard TP & WS set. We don't. And skill-wise, THF is really much more intensive (and more fun) to play than other common melee job (for me at least, "Damage Dealing" wise I mean).

But that doesn't mean THF is bad, far from that, I think that's why we all here play and enjoy this job (at least those who advocate for it). That's also why some THF like you melph outperform many strong DD.

Keep the good work, it's really good to have player like you around ;)

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:57pm by Neraya
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#12 Dec 01 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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There are some distinctions to be made. "Is the thief class DPS WORTHY" is not the same thing as "Is thf DPS the BEST".

There are 20 job in this game. 13 of which can be considered damage dealers (excluded black mage/scholar etc). That is a very wide playing field. It is foolhardy to say "X job is the best" because you change the situation slightly and it is no longer the best as all 13 have different strengths and weaknesses. The lineup for DDs is very different in abyssea than outside. With or without certain buffs and support. With or without a true "tank". Are we fighting colibri or undead skelitons? There are a million situations where jobs are called on to deal damage. With 13 jobs answering that call, there isnt a "best". But there is "worthy". Thf is a very worthy DD and, given the right situation as with all jobs, can excel to incredible heights.

I actually have put as much (if not a smidge more in recent time) effort into my drg as my thf (and far LESS time into my rng lol). It is a complete monster if i say so myself :P There are some distinct times it puts my thf to shame. There are a lot where it is neck and neck, others that my thf can actually surpass my drg, though admittedly, those are rarer, but how are we to value one over the other? Perhaps the way i spend my time in game favors drg, but your experience can favor thf. There is a distinct difference between saying thf can be a top DD and saying thf is THE top DD. With 13 jobs claiming DD status, there is no clear frontrunner.

I wont get into any **** comparison of what jobs are teh BEST DDs because, frankly, the answer is and will always be 'It depends'. Thf does require more effort and attention to reach the top, but if you pit a perfect thf vs a perfect (insert DD job), thf can give anyone a run for their money and get the upper or lower hand depending on the playing field variables. I strongly disagree that thf is an inherently weaker DD. The upper end potential is there, just more difficult to reach and maintain.

The TLDR version is the quality of ANY DD is entirely based on the player and their gear. Should I finish my twashtar and get DW3, my thf will start beating my drg honestly because it would take my thf to a new plane of speed and damage. Rhongimont for drg would not increase its overall damage very much over my current setup. Any job can leapfrog another. To talk about the best you have to compare the jobs with EVERY piece of gear for your job and play FLAWLESSLY, and still have to fabricate some imaginare "standard" situation (mob/buffs/etc) to compare them. All of which is unrealistic to put it mildly. So it will always come down to player vs player, not job vs job.

This is all ignoring this game is in a HUGE state of flux as things drastically change every 3 months until we hit 99 and settle in to the new world. Everything is changing so much it is hard to keep up and re-arrange the "DD hierarchy" constantly.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 11:50am by Banalaty
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#13 Dec 01 2010 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
Stuff.


I'm not trying to get into an argument about how good thief is or isn't, and I'm sure that you can play your thief very well. What I am saying is that if you put as much effort into gearing out and playing a warrior you will do better damage then you would on thief.
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#14 Dec 01 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm not trying to get into an argument about how good thief is or isn't, and I'm sure that you can play your thief very well. What I am saying is that if you put as much effort into gearing out and playing a warrior you will do better damage then you would on thief.


Do better damage where, on what and with what buffs?

If its a piercing weak target i beg to differ.
"But thats not fair to the war" but we still fight LOTS of piercing weak mobs. Why should they not be included?

What if you dont have much haste buffs? (DW>hasso by a mile with little/no haste buffs)
"Haste is always included in comparisons!"
Why? Do you always have haste, double march, haste samba, and in a situation where 2handers can /sam for 80% haste 2handers?

Are we talking about a war fell cleave burning chigoes with cure-bomb/retaliation= fell cleave deathga? NOTHING beats a war in that situation. Period. Does that mean war is the undisputed king of DDs?

The idea of "best" DD is always measured in completely unrealistic and static terms. This 'almost' worked at 75 when everything was based around the great merit party. But this isnt even teh same game anymore as that. There is no such thing as a 'standard' situation anymore. An exp party can be anything from a war+whm fell cleave session to 18man group of a hodgepodge of jobs/people, to a 6man group like ye olden days. The closest we ever had to that was colibri burns at 75. This game is the least static it has ever been. I honestly feel measuring in the normal way we have for years is now a completely archaic and obsolete way to compare DDs.

I am not trying to pick a fight as much as point out that the game has changed, but our mental paradigm has not. We were always trying to measure who can stretch their damage the farthest with our yardstick. DDs now are a liquidy goop we have to measure that can fill a variety of different shapes. To do that we would need to measure the volume, viscosity, expansion under heat and cold, and every possible property. We cant just slap a yardstick down on a puddle of goop and say which is the best these days.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 12:12pm by Banalaty

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 12:16pm by Banalaty
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#15 Dec 01 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Do better damage where, on what and with what buffs? If its a piercing weak target i beg to differ.
"But thats not fair to the war" but we still fight LOTS of piercing weak mobs. Why should they not be included?

What if you dont have much haste buffs? (DW>hasso by a mile with little/no haste buffs)
"Haste is always included in comparisons!"
Why? Do you always have haste, double march, haste samba, and in a situation where 2handers can /sam for 80% haste 2handers?

Are we talking about a war fell cleave burning chigoes with cure-bomb/retaliation= fell cleave deathga? NOTHING beats a war in that situation. Period. Does that mean war is the undisputed king of DDs?

Quote:

The idea of "best" DD is always measured in completely unrealistic and static terms. There is no such thing as a 'standard' situation. I honestly feel measuring in the normal way we have for years is now a completely archaic and obsolete way to compare DDs.


Smiley: lol That was quite the analogy Banalaty, but I agree. The game has evolved beyond level 75 where a well geared thf was a strong competitor in a merit burn, but a lousy addition to a HNM. 2 handers were well rounded but BLM was only GOOD DD vs HNM. Minikin Monstrosity + beyond +fresh II + /Convert made BLM DD worthy everywhere again. DRK gets better returns from Rampage/RR than Guillotine...etc etc etc stuff changed. There are new buffs that cater to different jobs more than others, and fights that favor job A over job B. Ranger is the best melee DD to fight Tonberry Lieje because of blaze spikes, wheres a lot of mobs reset tp to 0 so sam excels there. Two SMNs can duo Turul (shiva + MM + Beyond and HStrike) whereas melees are met with knockback and shock spikes. Nukes take down Itzamoth best yet melees are excellent vs. Ahlumuk. War can hit almost every weaponskill for red !! and WAR + NIN cover all 13 of them!! BLU can get pearl, ruby, azure, AND amber light while thief still has the best highest treasure hunter. There are still a lot of piercing weak mobs but almost nothing is weak to slashing and blunt is much less common. There are new buffs, more buffs than ever and they all cater to different jobs in different ways. We do not always party and occasionally solo (Banalaty mentioned (DW>hasso by a mile with little/no haste buffs).. it's TRUE and that's probably the case when you solo.

In a world where you only ever fight mobs in a 6 person party with the same buffs every time against mobs with the same stats then yes, some jobs will always be better. But this game is unpredictable, mobs can be HIGHLY evasive OR defensive or easy to hit and defend like a paper sack. Bones are piercing resistant (50% dagger penalty.... but a 50% BLUNT bonus) whereas birds are a bonus to dagger but neutral to the rest. Then you have magical damage and more.

I don't think of a top tier DD as the one that deals the MOST damage in one setup. A top tier DD is one that is versatile and consistently performs well in a wide variety of scenarios. Thief IS a top class DD because it has a lot to work with and can keep up with the other DD's in more fights than not. I may not be able to top the charts in a burn against ABC melee setup with XYZ buffs, nor may I necessarily beat a separate set of DDs in damage output against a different type of mob, but I will always be able to contribute meaningfully regardless of what I'm fighting, and that's something I can honestly say I never felt at level 75.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 2:43pm by Melphina
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#16 Dec 01 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
Smiley: lol That was quite the analogy Banalaty, but I agree. The game has evolved beyond level 75 where a well geared thf was a strong competitor in a merit burn, but a lousy addition to a HNM. 2 handers were well rounded but BLM was only GOOD DD vs HNM. Minikin Monstrosity + beyond +fresh II + /Convert made BLM DD worthy everywhere again. DRK gets better returns from Rampage/RR than Guillotine...etc etc etc stuff changed. There are new buffs that cater to different jobs more than others, and fights that favor job A over job B. Ranger is the best melee DD to fight Tonberry Lieje because of blaze spikes, wheres a lot of mobs reset tp to 0 so sam excels there. Two SMNs can duo Turul (shiva + MM + Beyond and HStrike) whereas melees are met with knockback and shock spikes. Nukes take down Itzamoth best yet melees are excellent vs. Ahlumuk. War can hit almost every weaponskill for red !! and WAR + NIN cover all 13 of them!! BLU can get pearl, ruby, azure, AND amber light while thief still has the best highest treasure hunter. There are still a lot of piercing weak mobs but almost nothing is weak to slashing and blunt is much less common. There are new buffs, more buffs than ever and they all cater to different jobs in different ways. We do not always party and occasionally solo (Banalaty mentioned (DW>hasso by a mile with little/no haste buffs).. it's TRUE and that's probably the case when you solo.

In a world where you only ever fight mobs in a 6 person party with the same buffs every time against mobs with the same stats then yes, some jobs will always be better. But this game is unpredictable, mobs can be HIGHLY evasive OR defensive or easy to hit and defend like a paper sack. Bones are piercing resistant (50% dagger penalty.... but a 50% BLUNT bonus) whereas birds are a bonus to dagger but neutral to the rest. Then you have magical damage and more.

I don't think of a top tier DD as the one that deals the MOST damage in one setup. A top tier DD is one that is versatile and consistently performs well in a wide variety of scenarios. Thief IS a top class DD because it has a lot to work with and can keep up with the other DD's in more fights than not. I may not be able to top the charts in a burn against ABC melee setup with XYZ buffs, nor may I necessarily beat a separate set of DDs in damage output against a different type of mob, but I will always be able to contribute meaningfully regardless of what I'm fighting, and that's something I can honestly say I never felt at level 75.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 2:43pm by Melphina


Again without trying to get anyone all defensive about their job (sigh, too late), try to put your response in context of the original posters question. He's coming from WoW where a rogue should be the parse topper every single time. I'm still going to hold that's not the FFXI thief.
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#17 Dec 01 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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I get what you are saying particularly coming from the wow perspective that rogue basically tops the parse. I just disagree. What job in FFXI tops the parse? War? Drg? Sam? Drk? What is the equivalent of a rogue melee DD that wins virtually all the time in raw damage? I dont even know the answer to that question.

It sounds all hugs and rainbows to say "Everyone is special and has a place. No one is better than anyone else. If you work hard and try with all your might you can be special no matter what you play!"

But honestly, at this point in the game this is how i feel (and i LOVE that i can say that. It shows good game design). Had this been a year ago i would have 100% agreed with you that Thf was respectable if played well, but always 1 step behind an EQUIVALENTLY geared/played DD. My drg/sam with drakes beat the pants off my thf after drakesbane and the 2hander boost and /sam boost. It wasnt even fair. I really started playing thf less and less for a while and focused on my drg.

Enter abyssea, enter atma, enter magian weapons, enter god status that is a DD in todays world. The tables have turned. Anyone with powerful crit WS and good DPS is a king among ants now. Sam gets kinda boned with no crit WS as do drks. The overhyped bandwagon job sam isnt near the top anymore. Drks get shafted. Drgs/wars/thf/(insert tons of jobs) get monterous. **** wyverns and puppets get atma boosts for crying out loud (not sure if bst pets do). You ever seen a pup nuke some stuff with good nuking atma?

Anyway, Ill get off my ramble box as i am sure i am just kicking the horse here and repeating myself. Once things stabalize at 99, I think we will be able to reshuffle the DD hierarchy into a little more stratified positions. But for now, all i ever see these days is, the best player wins regardless of job class.
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#18 Dec 05 2010 at 12:29 PM Rating: Default
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Unless things have changed massively since I quit, and I haven't seen anything showing it has, while THF's are plenty capable of leading the parse (at least in merit-type situations, which I would assume Abyssea is, so most end-game situations) it takes a good player working hard to do so. And even then, most people won't think you're good unless they know you personally and parse themselves to see how much damage you do.

THF's in FFXI are a lot like Shadow priests in BC. They can't do the damage of anyone else around them, but they're brought along because they bring something necessary to the group. You are useful to your group, but no one really brings you because of the damage you do. THF's in FFXI are a utility/support class.
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#19 Dec 06 2010 at 3:46 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Unless things have changed massively since I quit, and I haven't seen anything showing it has, while THF's are plenty capable of leading the parse (at least in merit-type situations, which I would assume Abyssea is, so most end-game situations) it takes a good player working hard to do so. And even then, most people won't think you're good unless they know you personally and parse themselves to see how much damage you do.

THF's in FFXI are a lot like Shadow priests in BC. They can't do the damage of anyone else around them, but they're brought along because they bring something necessary to the group. You are useful to your group, but no one really brings you because of the damage you do. THF's in FFXI are a utility/support class.

If you quit at level 75 then, **** yes, everything have changed massively in this game. And as Banalaty is saying, we have lost the stardard way of measuring "the best" DD.
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#20 Dec 06 2010 at 3:57 AM Rating: Good
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I know there have been plenty of changes in the game, but I've seen nothing to boost THF dps aside from a Crit rate trait (which many other classes got) and some minor gear upgrades. Other classes got similar things and more, since most THF changes have been to their utility more than DPS while most other classes got extra dps increases.

And in FFXI, just because things change doesn't mean everything changes. DRG were shunned while leveling and still shunned at 75 for years. DRG's could still perform fine the whole time, though.
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#21 Dec 06 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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SirEaglestrike you've been gone for quite some time ; ;. It's good to see you. But yes, the game has changed dramatically and thief can be a serious DD. The biggest change hasn't come from our gear, but from the atma's and abyssites inside abyssea.

Cruor Buffs -- The standard cruor buffs give +10 to every base stat in the original abyssea zones, and the Pulse Martello usually raises that to 20+ (more potential depending on Bastion victorys) in new zones. There is an abyssite of furtherance in both abyss-la thiene and abyss-misereaux and they each raise the base stats by 10 more points each. They're pretty easy to get and I have both, so that's all stats + 30-40 (or more if Baston has gone well) the moment I step inside abyssea.

Atma's -- The Razed Ruins atma has changed the game. It raises dexterity by 50, critical hit rate by 30%, and critical hit damage by 30%. It is the most destructive force I have ever seen. Thanks to my blue af3 legs I have a 58% melee critical rate and every critical is boosted by 38% (crit attack bonus and RR trait).

The second atma I use is the Voracious Violet which increases strength by 50, double attack by 5%, and a 2 hp/tic regain. That regain is a bigger deal than I originally gave it credit for so I swapped to it from my old secondary atma, the Stout Arm (Stout arm gave me 40 strength and 50 attack for a combined 70 attack).

Between those buffs and the gear we have available (Rapidus Sax, Kila +1, OaT Panz, Belenos's Mantle, Loki's Kaftan, etc) we can throw out some wicked DoT. My dexterity hovers around 250 inside abyssea (ridiculous weaponskill mods) and my strength is near 200 (my dagger will basically be at capped fSTR) and my sneak and trick attacks average around 1K damage each on non piercing mobs and thanks to the razed ruins evisceration is one of the most powerful weaponskills within abyssea.

Thief damage was always heavily reliant upon criticals, and now thanks to the razed ruins not only is our crit rate godly; they all get a big boost to damage (even without any gear for crit damage it's + 38% just from trait + RR alone). If you quit at level 75 you have no idea how much the game has changed. A side effect of all that dexterity is that my accuracy is through the roof, and I can eat red curry buns and still hit 95% hit rate on almost everything I touch, most NM's included (and all the strength boosts my attack heavily as well). The thief job has become an excellent DD inside abyssea, you just need to take the time to get the proper atma's (they aren't that hard honestly, and everybody wants them so organizing a run is easy).

Edited, Dec 6th 2010 9:48am by Melphina
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#22 Dec 06 2010 at 10:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Actually, the crit atma DOES help thf more than any other job (ninja too). It increases crit rate by 30% which thf now has a crit damage boost of ~8% that applies to all the extra crits. It also increases crit damage by 30% which enhances SATA for rather obvious reasons over other jobs with just melee damage. There is also the 50 dex which helps thf more than other jobs. We are one of only 3 jobs that actually use dex modded WS that ALSO is a powerful crit based WS. (Dnc, ninja, thf). There is also the point that the 50 dex=25 acc which helps those 3 jobs out siginificantly more than say.....my drg which is already at or near cap on. 1handers get more boost from acc than 2handers which doesnt need to be explained in great detail.

It is not some omgbbq Thf got 5x as pwerful but other DDs only got 1.5x as good or anything. But it is closing the gap in the important areas. Acc namely. Also it is playing to one of thfs strengths relative to the old "heavy" DDs. Thfs melee DPS is completely astonishing right now. As is Ninja and Dncs.

After today when we all hit 90, what have DD/sams gotten from sub job since 37? Another point or 2 of str from hasso and sekka. Thats it. None of that increases damage in any significant way during a burn where you WS at 100TP. What is thf about to get /nin? TEN PERCENT more DW.

The "small gear upgrades" are anything but. I compared my thf to my drg recently.

My lv 75 gear: (basically everything but dusk+1 gloves)
Thf: 17% haste, 23% DW. (Acc10/DW Mirke, Acc10/atk5/haste3 MKD hat, Skadi legs)
Drg: 21% haste, 10% hasso.

My lv85 gear (only af3+1s):
Thf: 22% haste, 26% DW (ballerines=1% more. Dusk+1=1% more)
Drg: 23% haste, 10% hasso (dusk+1=1% more, Aces legs=1% more)


My Lv 90 with all my AF3 +2ed:
Thf: 24% haste, 36% DW (ballerines=1% more. Dusk+1=1% more)
Drg: 25% haste, 10% hasso. (dusk+1=1% more, Aces legs=1% more)

With ideal gear, both will have 26% fully capped haste. Drg has the option to swap out 1% haste since they have access to 27%. This doesnt count new AF3 hands/body coming out today or other gear/atmas and such also coming out today. My thf has been steadily running up on my drgs coattails (along with other 2handers) in the haste department. My TP sets acc with +2s will be about 30ish higher from gear. 55ish higher with RR atma WHILE adding 3% more DW gear, and 7-8% more haste gear.

This really only leaves Thf's big weakness of crappy atk. But lets look at crits. Thf with RR=38% crit damage boost and ~54% crit rate. Other jobs still get 30% crit damage boost and the same 54% rate. For some simple numbers lets check out Thf with 1.0 pdif vs a 2hander with 1.25 pdif.

Thf: 1.0x damage becomes 2.74x damage on every crit with 38% boost.
2hnd: 1.25xdamage becomes 2.925x damage on every crit with a 30% boost.

Under old rules, non crits would be 25% in 2hnd favor. Crits would still be 12.5% in 2hnd favor, and only ~20% of the time. Now it is 25% on non crits still, but crits are only 5.9% in 2hnd favor, and that is 54% of the time. Toss thf some atk buffs and Dia3 and it will rival any job in the game on melee DPS alone.
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This isnt comprehensive by any means, but just points out the direction this game is going lately.

TLDR version:
You ever play a racing game and turn on the "catchup" option? The front runner car is still the frontrunner, but anyone behind him just goes faster and closes the distance until they catch up. Then those behind pass the frontrunner and loose that boost. It creates a very close back and forth race. This is thf today (and other 1handers).

Thf is catching up on the stats that REALLY matter. The hard cap ones. Haste gear and acc. Atk is suplimented by their crit boost trait and a HUGE boost to crit rate. It is coming down to DW of up to 36% (41% if using auric dagger) vs Hasso. 36% DW is monsterously impressive and I would take that over hasso in anything but 80% haste cap zergs.

This is not to say that thf blows everything out of the water, but the gap is RAPIDLY closing between a top tier thf and a top tier *anything else*. The gear, weapons, and atmas arent just static boosts across the board to all jobs. Every job is approaching the hard caps for "important" DD stats, DW is much more competative vs Hasso now, and a myriad of other adjustments.

This is still ignoring the fact that the 1heal/2support/3DD and 1heal/3support/2DD "Standard" parties used as the epeen barometer barely exist anymore. The game really is radically different than when you left.

Edited, Dec 6th 2010 11:57am by Banalaty
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Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#23 Dec 06 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Hell wyverns and puppets get atma boosts for crying out loud (not sure if bst pets do)


To protect my job from falling into a second Dark Age, I have to affirm what you're saying that, yes, BST jug pets do get Atma bonuses. Voracious Violet gives my pet Regain.
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#24 Dec 06 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Those are all well and good, but you haven't explained what changes to THF have made them better than the other DPS jobs. THF was PLENTY capable of amazing damage back in the 75 days, I'm a testament of that, so is Archain (though he's a freak of science) but the other jobs could still do just as well, and often better. And as a whole, THF's were seen as inferior...and most were.

From those changes I see two things that effect THF more or less than others:

Crit rate increase/crit damage increase: This will largely help THF regular melee attacks because crits greatly improve pDIF, which is the MAJOR THF issue, low attack (especially with all you sushi sucking nubs out there). However, nearly half of our damage, at least last I played, was from SA/WS, which are 100% crit, so the extra crit% does nothing for those moves, while it fully improves the other jobs. So I'm not seeing this as a great THF buff.

As well, the latest change to TH seems to suggest THF still isn't getting the love it may deserve from the end-game scene, if SE is now going to force THF's to be allowed to attack HNM's. I was responding to the OP, who is used to being a rogue, which has pretty much been THE top DPS in every end-game of WoW (aside from the first tier of each bracket) and has the expectation to be the best, at the top, unrivaled, etc. That's not THF, by a long shot. THF's work hard for recognition, and still don't get it most of the time. I don't think that has changed. You can refute me if that has changed, but I haven't seen anything to show it has.
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#25 Dec 06 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
THF's work hard for recognition, and still don't get it most of the time. I don't think that has changed.
This really hasn't changed, you're right.

Quote:
However, nearly half of our damage, at least last I played, was from SA/WS, which are 100% crit, so the extra crit% does nothing for those moves, while it fully improves the other jobs. So I'm not seeing this as a great THF buff.


Most thieves should be using Evisceration, unless they have Rudra's storm. Evis with 54% crit rate base, + whatever the TP mod adds is pretty beastly. As for crit rate on solo SA / TA: Of course that doesn't help, but they are still boosted via the +30% damage bonus from RR.
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#26 Dec 06 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't see how evisc going from 24% to 54% crit is any better than Rampage going from 20% to 50% crit. In fact, daggers probably lose out.

As well, why wouldn't DE be even better now? It has stronger mods than Evi, unless that has changed. 30% crit would effect both WS's the same, but DE gains from the +10 to CHR too. And last I played Evi and DE were both 30% dex, just with DE having a 40% chr mod too. Did this change? People were harping about Evis before I quit, but I never saw it produce much and DE was always better for me.
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#27 Dec 06 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
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In abyssea, evisceration is much much stronger than DE. It's not even close. But this is only becuase it can crit naturally and DE can't.

With zero atmas...they might still be close. But even the Dex cruor buffs serve to push evisceration's crit rate into more competetive territory.

Example: I run with Razed Ruins Atma and Atma of the gnarled Horn. These two atmas put me well over 70% crit rate (add to that whatever Eviscerations crit rate bonus is....) And you have a situation where the majority of the hits are critting, with at least 38% critical hit damage bonus at minimum and up to 50% through other + Crit damage gear (Oh yeah, they released a LOT of increases critical hit damage gear...some of it better than others)

Rampage vs Evisceration....it depends on your atmas I guess. But Razed Ruins definately favors evisceration because Dex is a mod vs rampage having a STR mod etc. That, and where THF is concerned, we have the ability to force crit stack WS with some pretty ridiculous AGL and DEX cruor stat buffs to boost them significantly when stacked. 4~5k SAEV are common etc.

Some of these atma's really do boost THF damage potential a bit more than some of the others that can use them. Its not some crazy huge advantage (although there are times when it does seem like it), but it does serve to to even the playing field a bit more.

In abyssea, I think DD's in general are more balanced than they have ever been in FFXI.

Aside from that, damage is hardly the issue these days. Most groups are just concerned with getting the right weaponskills and spells to proc weakness. After you have those, pretty much any DD is capable of dealing great damage where applicable.

THF is also quite valuable in this regard because it also makes a very good DD tank in abyssea. Especially now that groups are going to want us on the mob more, it makes sense to put a good THF in that role.

Edited, Dec 6th 2010 6:01pm by ThiefKiller
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#28 Dec 06 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Solo Evisceration in abyssea is at LEAST 2x as powerful now as DW. (in game experience, not theorycraft).

You keep forgetting its not JUST crit rate. 30% rate. 30% damage AND 50 dex. Combine that with thfs now nativ 8% crit damage trait, Evis natural crit RATE boost of ~10%ish at 100 tp.

Cruor buffs and 50dex from Atma means capped crit rate from Ddex of 20%. 4% merits=24%. 30% rate from atma=54%. ~10% for evis=64%.

Over half of your Evis hits are critting which DE cant. Each crit hit of which is getting a straight 38% damage boost calculated AFTER the static +1 to pdif which DE doesnt get.

Evis was "about the same" as DE at 75 with a 34% crit rate. Now theres a 30% crit rate buff, multiplied by 38% straight damage on each crit. Not to mention that dex and weapon damage help Evis more than DE because more and more damage is coming from weapon/Fstr/Dex mod and Chr becomes an increasingly small part of the total damage as the other factors ramp up. Also the weapon/fstr/dex which help both "equally" get boosted by crits for a double whammy boost to evis while it doesnt get that boost from DE.

As I pointed out before, lets give lolThf atk a 1.0 Pdif for simplicity.

D41 dagger. Capped Fstr (which is basically guranteed in abyssea)=41+12.
Dex=(mithra) 90+30(cruor)+50(atma)+gear(mine is around 64)=234
Chr=(mithra) 64+30(cruor)+gear(mine is a whopping +5 on the ring, but also looses 1 dex from evis build but who cares for this)=99

Dagger+fstr damage=53.
Dex=234
Chr=99

Not sure what current alpha is, but ill jsut go .85 as its the most recent ive heard.

Weapon=53
Evis mod=53
DE Mod=92

1.0 Pdif
Evis base damage (per hit)=106
DE Base damage (per hit)=145

Evis crit damage (+38%crit dam)=292
DE base damage per hit=145

2.0 Pdif
Evis base damage (per hit)=212
DE Base damage (per hit)=290

Evis crit damage (+38%crit dam)=438
DE base damage per hit=290


Yes Evis beats the sh*t outta DE now. It really is THAT pronounced. Just like melee DPS. Its is the synergy of an unprecidented straight buff of 38% boost to crit damage and auto capping dex crit rate and +30% on top of that, and if thats not enough, 50 dex for mods. If i have crappy atk on a high level NM iwth no atk buffs, my melee strikes can do in the 20s, but my crits are 90+. This atma completely shoots thf through the roof.

As for "it jsut helps thf like everyone else", there is NO other WS in the game besides blade jin that has both a dex mod AND is a crit based WS. So yes, thf gets more from razed ruin than anyone else because that 50 dex is wasted on them. Not to mention, +50 dex......+30% crit damage....Sneak attack? This is the thf boards right? Thf gets hands down, the best boost from this atma over any other job.
__________________________________________________________________________

*RR closes the acc gap with 2hander(we dont need to sacrifice haste gear for acc in abyssea for acc to get a good hit rate in essence closing the haste gap
*RR closes (to an extent) the atk gap by synergizing with our native crit boosts
*RR modifies our WS via dex unlike any other jobs but Dnc and nin.
*RR boosts our SATA through the roof with straight+30% damage and +50 dex on SA
*RR makes our "HNM" WS mandalic stab a complete beast on HNMs by boosting it in every conciebale way (huge base damage boost, combined with its native atk boos, huge 30% boost to the TOTAL damage=sexy on anything no matter how tough)
*RR boost our DPS through the roof. We are a DPS job so we get more benefit than jobs like, say, sam who have sh*t for melee damage. In other words, it boosts our strengths (DPS, SATA) and covers our weaknesses (acc, atk) and gives us more freedom to gear by coving our acc base (more haste).

It really closes the gap between thf and other jobs by a huge margin. The new gear covers the rest. Thf used to have to "choose" between haste and acc. We dont have to do that anymore. Just like 2handers have not had to choose for quite some time.

Also, we get DW3. If that isnt a huge boost to cover any remaining discrepancy (*cough hasso*), I dont know what to say.

The trouble was that 2handers could have their cake and eat it too. They got more haste for free. Capped acc easily while still going balls to the wall haste builds. The "ideal" thf haste TP set at 75 was 17% haste. The ideal 2hander across the board was 22-25 depending on job+hasso. Now thf can cap acc, wear 25% haste gear (new body <3), and getting an additional 13% DW over our lv75 shadows. This only leaves atk as our major deficiency which the new crit related boosts shore up very nicely.
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All that said, there is still MUCH truth to the point that Thf requires more effort to gear and attention to play. That has never changed. But the rewards for your efforts are playing with the big dogs on the same footing instead of always being 1 step behind an equivalently geared/played melee as it used to be.

I used to be the best thf i knew (personally knew anyway). The only people that i used to be unable to touch (aside from relic wielders) were a few individuals (like a leeted out war in my LS) were those that had just as much time in their "heavy" DD jobs as I did on mine. That included the LS war, my own drg, and a few others. My thf just couldnt quite match the best of the best. That isnt the case anymore. i can keep pace with that same war today that beat me at 75. And i can do it on NEUTRAL mobs. I will not be suprised if i can edge him out regularly with DW3 at my back.

This is still with top of the line gear. I cant emphasize enough that it still takes more work to reach that level of play. Joeshmo war will still beat the pants off joeshmo thf. But if you put in the time and effort, the maxmum potential of thf has done a LOT of growing up since 75. Enough that they can match anyone. Im getting a little to preachy for my own taste, but things really have changed more than most people who left at 75 think.

To bring it back to the OP a little, I fully stand by my earlier statement that, simply put, in FFXI there is no rogue. There is no job that is "expected" to top the parse by any significant margin virtually all the time, HNM or otherwise. Thf is the clossest in style with the backstabby-ish play, but there is no true equivalent in epeen right now. At 99, who knows. But for now, i fully believe that there are quite a few classes that are neck and neck fighting for the top spot and that spot depends mostly on situational factors. Is it a piercing weak mob? Drg and thf to the top. Do we have no atk buffs on an HNM? Drks utterly massive atk these days will cover them. Things like that. But for general-allaround-damage, there isnt a real clear cut winner right now.

Edited, Dec 6th 2010 6:12pm by Banalaty
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Aanalaty, Mithra of San d'Oria
99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
Bonecraft-100+3 7/29/08
Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#29 Dec 06 2010 at 9:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Banalaty's post is long winded, but it rings a truth you should not ignore SES. Unless you have experienced it firsthand you cannot comprehend how much thief has grown up since 75. The biggest points have been this

---Our largest handicap used to be that we had to choose between important stats whereas now we can cap haste with relative ease while maintaining capped accuracy.
---At level 90 we will have dual wield III when /nin. That's stupid huge and like banalaty said matches up with hasso (probably overpowers it). We will soon be able to hit the 80% hard delay reduction without soul voice.
---Razed Ruins does benefit us more than any other job. Our crit attack bonus is tier 2 putting us ahead of those with tier 1, and 50 dex is a stronge weaponskill secondary mod that the 2 hander crit ws's don't use. 50 dex affects sneak attack, and you'd be a fool to ignore the direct damage boost RR has on sneak and trick attack. I said it before but I'll say it again. My sneak and trick attacks average to about 1K damage each on NEUTRAL mobs thanks to that direct 38% damage boost. This doesn't even account cruot (+40 to every stat ) and that razed ruins adds 50 dex (more SA power)

I keep saying it and I will say it again. Thief damage has always been heavily dependent on critical damage from day one. The Razed Ruins IS criticals in every way shape and form, and it plays upon our strengths in a way that goes beyond that of any other job.


Edited, Dec 18th 2010 8:02pm by Melphina
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#30 Dec 10 2010 at 11:40 PM Rating: Decent
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What to expect in FFXI, coming from WoW:
I've played both WoW and FFXI for years and, in the end, they are equally great but very different. FFXI has more enjoyable endgame due to its large variety of short events (as opposed to working slowly through a single, long raid for days), but WoW's PvP system is infinitely better. PvP is virtually non-existent in FFXI and very unbalanced anyway. FFXI also has multiple storylines with many missions, like WoW quest chains but MUCH larger in scope (and difficulty) and with many cutscenes. Questing in FFXI won't reward you with EXP. Dying in FFXI causes you to lose EXP. FFXI progresses much slower and is much more challenging than WoW, and may require too much of a timesink for the average gamer. Your character can level multiple classes and you will need to maintain a subjob (secondary class half the level of your main class). There are zones in FFXI (every time you get to the edge of a map you have to load the next one). I have found the community in FFXI to be more elitest in certain regards, but also much friendlier and more mature. You cannot jump in FFXI. The controls are unique in FFXI (no mouse, no WASD, almost all macros, etc). You can (and should for your different abilities) swap gear mid-battle in FFXI. Leveling in FFXI is done by killing very hard monsters one after another in EXP chains. Links in FFXI can easily wipe an entire party, so make sure you are patient and only pull 1 monster at a time. Soloing is difficult in FFXI, forcing you to level with others in parties (groups of 6 players). Thieves are actually one of the few classes capable of soloing with any effectiveness, but partying will net you must faster EXP in the long run. FFXI Gil is usually harder (or more reliant on luck) to make than WoW gold. The most expensive items in FFXI are dropped by rare monsters that pop randomly. If you decide to camp one of these rare monsters, you will likely have competition and may waste hours of your life waiting for a monster to pop only to have it claimed and killed by someone else. Crafting something in FFXI isn't a guaranteed success. FFXI is a much harder game than WoW, with the potential to be more fun but also more frustrating.

About Thieves (vs Rogues):
Thief (THF) in FFXI is not the best DPS (not the worst either), but it is one of the most fun classes in the game. You will move around a lot for Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, pulling (called 'fishing' in FFXI), kiting in endgame, etc. Thieves have the highest evasion and a natural trait called Treasure Hunter (increases droprates), making them great at soloing rare monsters called NMs (Notorious Monsters). You will have to set up MANY gear-swap macros. Thieves (like other DPS classes in FFXI) will rely on a TP bar, similar to a Death Knight's Runic Power bar. Every hit nets you a few TP, and when you hit 100%, you can use a powerful Weaponskill for massive damage. There is no stealth mode in FFXI. The only times a character will ever go invisible will be to avoid aggroing something when you run past it. Thieves in FFXI are half-DPS and half-support. THFs are in charge of controlling hate. Trick Attack plants hate on the tank and Collaborator/Accomplice transfers excess hate from other people to you. Every class in FFXI gets a powerful ability that can only be used once every 2 hours: THF gets Perfect Dodge allowing you to dodge every single melee attack (100% dodge rate) for 30 seconds.

tl;dr: Thief is not the best DPS but it's still really fun. FFXI is harder than WoW and may scare you away.
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#31 Dec 12 2010 at 1:47 AM Rating: Decent
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
I don't see how evisc going from 24% to 54% crit is any better than Rampage going from 20% to 50% crit. In fact, daggers probably lose out.

For a job with ATK deficiencies, crits have a bigger impact.

Quote:
As well, why wouldn't DE be even better now? It has stronger mods than Evi, unless that has changed. 30% crit would effect both WS's the same, but DE gains from the +10 to CHR too.

DE cannot crit naturally, so it gains nothing from either +critrate or +critdmg. EV gains (significantly) from both.

Additionally, if you looks at the Razed Ruins atma (DEX+50, critrate+30%, critdmg+30%), what do the other DDs gain from it?

- 2h DDs are already fine on accuracy, so they get limited benefit from the DEX's accuracy
- SAM and DRK do not have good crit WS (as noted), and DEX is not a WSC on their WSes, so their WSes are unimpacted
- DRG and WAR do not have DEX mod on their crit WS, so their gain only from the +critrate/+critdmg
- MNK does not have crit WS, and only Raging Fists has DEX mod

When it comes to WS, only THF and NIN fully benefit from the full gamut: the DEX accuracy, the DEX mod, the +critrate, and the +critdmg. In addition, as you stated, with a large portion of THF's damage coming from SA/TA, the +critdmg is an obvious advantage to THF there (to say nothing of the +DEX for SA).

It doesn't require much reflection to see that that atma helps NIN and THF a **** of a lot more than anyone else, and helps THF substantially more than NIN. Now, I can't say whether there are other, potentially better atmas out there, but as far as that particular one goes, it's FAR better for THF than the other DDs. It's a blowout.

However, at the end of the day, I do agree with your overall point: if you are coming from WoW (where Rogue is accepted as a Damage Dealer), do not expect to fulfill the same role as THF. Regardless of whether or not THF can actually deal damage, it is unlikely to be accepted in the role of Damage Dealer... and that's ultimately what the OP is asking.

Edited, Dec 12th 2010 12:20am by redvenomweb
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#32 Dec 12 2010 at 4:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
FFXI is harder than WoW and may scare you away.


I'd go through and quote all the stupid in your post, but I am getting a little tired of doing that so often, so just going to say this is one of the dumbest statements FFXI people make.

If I were to say there are two "kinds" of difficulty, you have WoW and FFXI.

FFXI difficulty you can do nothing against. You simply lose out because it's "difficult" and you spend most of the time in dangerous situations praying for luck to go your way because there really isn't a whole lot you can do a lot of the time.

WoW difficulty is fully within your ability to react to. You can press certain buttons, you can change strategy, you can acquire new buffs, etc. and all can greatly effect whether or not you can beat a certain encounter. There's (almost) always something you can do to overcome difficulty in this game.

For the rest of your post I'll summarize and say that much of what you say is subjective and a good bit of it is flat out wrong these days. WoW has MANY cutscenes in it now with Cataclysm and very good storytelling, including ones "large in scope" like FFXI. This actually started in WotLK, but it was only a couple cutscenes. Cutscenes are all over WoW now.

As for RVW's post, I'll be honest I wasn't even aware DE couldn't crit. I think I may have heard of that back in the day, but didn't recall it at all for now. The game sounds really interesting now. It's too bad I hate the gameplay (coding-wise) too much and enjoy WoW way too much to be able to make even a short return.
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#33 Dec 12 2010 at 6:02 AM Rating: Good
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redvenomweb wrote:


However, at the end of the day, I do agree with your overall point: if you are coming from WoW (where Rogue is accepted as a Damage Dealer), do not expect to fulfill the same role as THF. Regardless of whether or not THF can actually deal damage, it is unlikely to be accepted in the role of Damage Dealer... and that's ultimately what the OP is asking.

Edited, Dec 12th 2010 12:20am by redvenomweb


This.
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#34 Dec 12 2010 at 6:46 AM Rating: Good
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The RR Atma has put DoT Jobs back on top. Specifcally MNK and NIN closely followed by THF. War's hover around there too but nothing is comparable inside abyss to Victory Smite and Blade: Hi.

THF's on this forum can beg to differ, but if you want an answer regarding best DD in current game enviroment (which I know wasn't your initial question) ask the question in the General Forum.

The Ninja class (which i guess is stealthy too) is the current badwagon job, you could look into that also.
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#35 Dec 13 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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SirEaglestrike wrote:
As for RVW's post, I'll be honest I wasn't even aware DE couldn't crit. I think I may have heard of that back in the day, but didn't recall it at all for now.

Yeah, it was discovered a while back that only WSes that say "chance to critical increases with TP" have the ability to naturally crit; other WSes can only crit with SA/ATA/Mighty Strikes applied.
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#36 Dec 15 2010 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
Do better damage where, on what and with what buffs?

If its a piercing weak target i beg to differ.
"But thats not fair to the war" but we still fight LOTS of piercing weak mobs. Why should they not be included?

What if you dont have much haste buffs? (DW>hasso by a mile with little/no haste buffs)
"Haste is always included in comparisons!"
Why? Do you always have haste, double march, haste samba, and in a situation where 2handers can /sam for 80% haste 2handers?

Are we talking about a war fell cleave burning chigoes with cure-bomb/retaliation= fell cleave deathga? NOTHING beats a war in that situation. Period. Does that mean war is the undisputed king of DDs?

The idea of "best" DD is always measured in completely unrealistic and static terms. This 'almost' worked at 75 when everything was based around the great merit party. But this isnt even teh same game anymore as that. There is no such thing as a 'standard' situation anymore. An exp party can be anything from a war+whm fell cleave session to 18man group of a hodgepodge of jobs/people, to a 6man group like ye olden days. The closest we ever had to that was colibri burns at 75. This game is the least static it has ever been. I honestly feel measuring in the normal way we have for years is now a completely archaic and obsolete way to compare DDs.

I am not trying to pick a fight as much as point out that the game has changed, but our mental paradigm has not. We were always trying to measure who can stretch their damage the farthest with our yardstick. DDs now are a liquidy goop we have to measure that can fill a variety of different shapes. To do that we would need to measure the volume, viscosity, expansion under heat and cold, and every possible property. We cant just slap a yardstick down on a puddle of goop and say which is the best these days.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 12:12pm by Banalaty

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 12:16pm by Banalaty


Yeah, I know we 1H don't have any inferior game mechanics at all, and we have DW which totally beats the @#%^ out of hasso, superior gear choices and 2H mods/A+ skills/etc.


Ahrana wrote:
Mistress Melphina wrote:
Stuff.


I'm not trying to get into an argument about how good thief is or isn't, and I'm sure that you can play your thief very well. What I am saying is that if you put as much effort into gearing out and playing a warrior you will do better damage then you would on thief.


This, basically.

Banalaty wrote:
This is not to say that thf blows everything out of the water, but the gap is RAPIDLY closing between a top tier thf and a top tier *anything else*. The gear, weapons, and atmas arent just static boosts across the board to all jobs. Every job is approaching the hard caps for "important" DD stats, DW is much more competative vs Hasso now, and a myriad of other adjustments.
Edited, Dec 6th 2010 11:57am by Banalaty


This too.

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 9:54pm by ElvaanTHF
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#37 Dec 16 2010 at 2:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Since this thread was bumped anyway, I might as well ask: Why was my first post rated down? The rest weren't, when I'd say I had more "wrong" and "controversial" in most of those than my original post, which still wasn't refuted to be incorrect and my point was agreed upon.
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#38 Dec 16 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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because too many people on this site use the rate down button as a "i disagee" button without explaining why. my biggest gripe about alla; people read, rate, and move on without explaining what fault they find with your argument or point.
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#39 Dec 16 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Instead of trying to defend thief's DD potential anymore I'm going to ask a question to those who disagree with me instead. Why do you believe thief is NOT as good of a DD as the other major dd classes? My original two posts in this thread were rated down as well as several others, but Ahrana and ElvaanTHF were the only ones to vocalize their thoughts that thief is an inferior dd. However nobody has given me any reason to back this up yet. I don't care if you disagree with me and I will respect your opinions, but I at least want to know why you feel the way you do.

Abyssea has changed the way the game is played and the most important aspects of being a good player (Atma's and Abyssites) are universal. If a person on "other DD job" has 3 abyssites of furtherance + RR + VV + SA + w/e else they can change jobs to play thf and have the same abyssites and atma's. If a person playing "other DD job" does NOT have good atmas and lacks the abyssites they are going to fall behind in DD (BADLY no less) and it won't matter what job they're playing. Atma's and Abyssites are just that big of a deal.

It has been said that the game is more DoT focused now than ever and ninja of all jobs is praised (rightfully so!!) as a top DD class. When the level cap was 75 ninja was a forgotten relic to the DD world and people said it was in the same boat as thief DD... BAD. But now people are heralding ninja for its awesome DD inside abyssea because atma's and abyssites give it superior DoT and a powerful critical weaponskill. What I find ironic is that the same mechanics which have turned ninja a god are our greatest strengths as well.... those being strong DoT and a powerful critical based weaponskill. I can cap gear haste at 26% easily now and I have capped accuracy, plus dual wield three offers much more speed than the haste hasso gives which means the only thing hasso has up on DW3 is strength.. but my fSTR is probably capped anyway because of key items.

I've spoken my mind and now I'd like to know why people believe thief ISN'T as good of a DD as the other jobs. Abyssea is all about the key items, and the key items have brought forth potential from my favorite job that would never have been possible without them.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 9:04am by Melphina
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#40 Dec 17 2010 at 5:20 AM Rating: Good
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Hahaha, so the response is for someone to go and rate down the rest of my posts. Awesome.
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#41 Dec 17 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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Everyone knows the rating system here sucks. Its more akin to gaining the favor of a mob or being stoned by it. It is fickle, illogical, and has a lot of groupthink associated with it. Also you broke the unwritten rule. If you talk about being rated down, you get rated down more for 'QQing about being rated down'.

Certainly you have posted here long enough to not expect the anonymous internet horde to explain itself for negative rate downs? Coming out and explaining why you hit the down arrow defeats the entire point of rating down anonymously!
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#42 Dec 17 2010 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
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I was just curious to see if I could get someone to respond with an actual reason why. I enjoy discussion/debate.

And I've been a scholar so long it'd probably take quite a bit of effort to remove that from me, so ratings mean absolutely nothing.
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#43 Dec 17 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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The first rule of fight club Karma is that you do NOT talk about fight club Karma.
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#44 Dec 18 2010 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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I don't even notice the karma here; if they took out the buttons, etc, it'd probably take me awhile b4 I noticed anything changed.

I don't care how this relates to the OP cuz that's already been answered.

Heavy DD's
Don't exist as they used to. Truly though "heavy DD's" was always something that made me want to slap someone in the mouth, and I rarely get angry. It's one of those cop-out, fallacy-backed terms that reinforces ignorance and laziness. Every try to have a logical discussion with a senior family member when you were a kid and get told that you were wrong "because I'm an adult"? This is just like that.
"Heavy" DD's (sam, war, drg, drk) were never as universally good as people thought them to be, especially when unaccompanied by a "tank" on something that couldn't be zerged. Seigan tanking an HNM level mob was a rare skill to find.

sh*t was always situational. This has been stated a couple times:
Quote:
What I am saying is that if you put as much effort into gearing out and playing a warrior you will do better damage then you would on thief.
But I'm surprised it wasn't squarely pointed out that this is simply false or at least very misleading. An AH-war was better than an AH-thf. But a well decked thief was a lot closer to a well decked war, and surely could beat it given situation. Give both a relic too; Mandau was again a greater increase than Bravura.
Quote:
Furthermore an 80% delay reduction benefits low delay weapons more than high ones because of the exponential gains concept. YES, daggers get more out of 80% delay reduction than great axes, both DoT wise AND tp gain wise.
This is not true. Ex: 400/80 = 5. 200/40 = 5. 5/5 = 1. Delay reduction: 400/(80*0.2)=1. 200/(40*0.2)=1. 1/1 = 1. Lower delay weapons don't help more because they don't go into the delay reduction formula, but gets multiplied against it.

Banalty btw all around silver-tongue very well said explanations again.


I can kind of see where people are coming from talking about the Abyssea DD's being Nin and Mnk, post Empyrean WS. I don't know how the jobs compare pre-Empyrean WS; I'm interested in knowing what people think. I don't have all the equip or parses to back it up but I wouldn't be surprised if pre-EmpyreanWS with peaked equip, thief is just stronger than all the other DD's. Post Empyrean-WS though... I mean, kind of ridiculous. I have this friend with Empyrean H2H and perfect mnk gear. I saw him doing like every single hit as a crit vs that Turul NM, almost every punch hitting for 500 dmg, and WS's for over 3k each.

I have seen a Twashtar on my server but they use it for Dnc. I haven't heard/read anything on Twashtar and Rudra's Storm, cept this guy in on my server told me he heard of like 7k Rudra's in abyssea and something like 3.5k outside. Is he just getting my hopes up, or is Rudra's Storm actually that good?

Edited, Dec 18th 2010 2:27pm by Shamaya
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#45 Dec 18 2010 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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Oh also we've just been talking about Thf/Nin. If we wanted to treat thief now like whiny 2-handed DD's wanted to be treated in the past, we could always go Thf/War with DW2 and Bersergressor.
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#46 Dec 18 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Default
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I guess I'll bite. I'd just like to point out first and foremost that most of this post is 75 cap era information.

Shamaya wrote:
Heavy DD's
Don't exist as they used to. Truly though "heavy DD's" was always something that made me want to slap someone in the mouth, and I rarely get angry. It's one of those cop-out, fallacy-backed terms that reinforces ignorance and laziness. Every try to have a logical discussion with a senior family member when you were a kid and get told that you were wrong "because I'm an adult"? This is just like that.
"Heavy" DD's (sam, war, drg, drk) were never as universally good as people thought them to be, especially when unaccompanied by a "tank" on something that couldn't be zerged. Seigan tanking an HNM level mob was a rare skill to find.


I guess I could pick off a few points.

First off the term "heavy DD" came after the 2 handed update, and for good reason. The stat mod going from 2-1 to 3-2 was a huge difference in attack and accuracy, and dual wielders never caught up. It was common to push 120+ str on a weaponskill, which equated to an extra 30 attack over a dual wielder with equal stats (assuming they could hit the same str). The other big advantage was that with the extra acc that 2-handers had it was sometimes possible to use meat over sushi.

Another issue with pre-abyssea 1-handers was gearing them. The stat bonuses on hauby+1/hauberk+1/ebody was well beyond what most 1-handers could get, and two of those were common AH items. Another obvious example is kitty pants which blew away pretty much any other piece of gear available for any job (granted only sam and war could use those, but these were the jobs that were considered the heavy DD's of choice). As far as salvage gear was concerned the ares and usu sets blew skaldi out of the water, and the homon gear was ok for TP, but was the weak little brother of what warrior and sam could wear.

And finally the 1-handers generally lacked the job abilities to really push out damage on HNM's. SA/TA was ok, but compared to meditate+hasso or berserk+aggressor it just didn't measure up. All the videos of beating AV feature k-club darks (before the BW nerf) and more recently warriors. They simply had ways of producing damage that could push through his defense and vitality.

Shamaya wrote:
sh*t was always situational. This has been stated a couple times:
Quote:
What I am saying is that if you put as much effort into gearing out and playing a warrior you will do better damage then you would on thief.
But I'm surprised it wasn't squarely pointed out that this is simply false or at least very misleading. An AH-war was better than an AH-thf. But a well decked thief was a lot closer to a well decked war, and surely could beat it given situation. Give both a relic too; Mandau was again a greater increase than Bravura.


So you said I either lied, or I'm misleading people.

I'm not really one to call people out on forums, but perhaps you're wrong. My memory says that a pimped out Mandau thief could put out some good damage, but a non-relic pimped out warrior would still beat him on pretty much any HNM. And for the purposes of this argument I'm specifically stating HNM's, I could care less about some lolibri parse.


Shamaya wrote:
Quote:
Furthermore an 80% delay reduction benefits low delay weapons more than high ones because of the exponential gains concept. YES, daggers get more out of 80% delay reduction than great axes, both DoT wise AND tp gain wise.
This is not true. Ex: 400/80 = 5. 200/40 = 5. 5/5 = 1. Delay reduction: 400/(80*0.2)=1. 200/(40*0.2)=1. 1/1 = 1. Lower delay weapons don't help more because they don't go into the delay reduction formula, but gets multiplied against it.


I think we agree on this.

Shamaya wrote:
Banalty btw all around silver-tongue very well said explanations again.

I can kind of see where people are coming from talking about the Abyssea DD's being Nin and Mnk, post Empyrean WS. I don't know how the jobs compare pre-Empyrean WS; I'm interested in knowing what people think. I don't have all the equip or parses to back it up but I wouldn't be surprised if pre-EmpyreanWS with peaked equip, thief is just stronger than all the other DD's. Post Empyrean-WS though... I mean, kind of ridiculous. I have this friend with Empyrean H2H and perfect mnk gear. I saw him doing like every single hit as a crit vs that Turul NM, almost every punch hitting for 500 dmg, and WS's for over 3k each.

I have seen a Twashtar on my server but they use it for Dnc. I haven't heard/read anything on Twashtar and Rudra's Storm, cept this guy in on my server told me he heard of like 7k Rudra's in abyssea and something like 3.5k outside. Is he just getting my hopes up, or is Rudra's Storm actually that good?


So now we're finally talking about abyssea. I am willing to say that razed ruin has greatly helped the jobs that suffered at 75 cap. Believe it or not this actually makes me happy. I play ninja and pup when I want to have fun. I love that since I have the right abyssites and atma that I can compete with the traditional big dogs, and against some of them I can win. I will agree that rudra's storm is a great weaponskill, and that thief is in the mix for solid DD choices.

Where I choose to disagree is that I don't think it's the new top dd in abyssea. Everything I've personally experienced shows me that ninja, monk and warrior always seem to rise to the top. Having said that I'm not saying that they're crushing the competition like the big dogs of 75 cap, but the best monks, ninjas and warriors tend to push through to the top above the other well played DD's.

Shamaya wrote:
Oh also we've just been talking about Thf/Nin. If we wanted to treat thief now like whiny 2-handed DD's wanted to be treated in the past, we could always go Thf/War with DW2 and Bersergressor.


I find it entertaining that you act like you can't, but the biggest obstacle to thieves using /war is thieves themselves. Since I consider myself a whm main I'll cure whoever is taking damage, regardless of if it's a pld, sam, blm or thf. But thieves get hung up on shadows and feel naked without them, and they lose out on 10% dual wield when sub warrior (at least according to wiki they're listed as only having DW1 without /nin). Dancers also do this to themselves, as you would be hard pressed to find one that isn't /nin even though they don't get any of dual wield bonus from doing so.
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#47 Dec 18 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's nothing much to bite at.

You can explain why 2h'ers were powerful and why the 2h buff led to them being called heavy DD's, but most forum goers are already aware of all of this. I'm pointing out that what is misleading is that spending equal amounts of time on a warrior over a thief would have produced a better warrior all the time. Most thieves never got far beyond the AH/sh*ttily geared level, whereas warrior was easier to gear and easier to play. But well geared thieves have always been much stronger compared to sh*ttier thieves, than well geared wars have been compared to sh*ttily geared wars. I got Mandau slightly b4 the 2h buff so I may be biased. Perhaps it was impossible in most circumstances for a Thf to do more dmg than a War/Sam not holding back. But a War/Nin, absolutely. Or on anything piercing without a good pole setup and merits, you bet the Thf is in a good position.

There are a **** lot of sh*tty relic DD's, Mandau included. But a properly played Mandau never paled next to a perfectly geared pre-Bravura War/Sam. I don't feel we were at as huge a disadvantage on HNM's as was suspect. Not being allowed to melee because you feed too much TP, and being placed in a party without a bard can create very warped and incorrect views when they persist for years.

But HNM's are a thing of themselves. Most of them, you just weren't allowed to consistently melee, so it's really hard to gauge not only Thief, but most other DD's as well. Often times, you're playing better for the alliance by actually engaging less. And obviously zerg fights, like AV or Kirin, are to be taken in isolation and compared separately from other events. If I were doing limbus, I wouldn't take all war's and drks. But if I was zerging, I would. I actually always had faith that a maxed alliance of Wars at 75 could still have killed AV, or at least do a lot better than people expected them to, but that's neither here nor there.
But HNM's are really so varied that you should look at them individually. Thf/Nin had a big advantage at Ixion over War/xxx. At Fafnir, LS's (more out of paranoia than anything) wouldn't allow sneak attacks. If you parse thieves at Einherjar mega boss extended zergs, you would be surprised how well they do. An Amano sam could do well against a Mandau thief in a merit party. But the tables would turn on most einherjar bosses.

As for subs, I'm not in an LS right now so I don't know what kind of opportunities arise for people to sub something other than Nin. But believe me if allowed to /war with cures I'm sure thieves would feel inclined. At least, they should. I admit I do feel naked with my shadows. But even if they don't go /war, the potential is still there. Mnk's use to always complain that they could go /war and people would acknowledge that potential. So that potential should be acknowledged for thief too. As it turns out, thief does get DW2 at 90 (at least, that was reported here. If they are wrong I'll be a sad panda). So /war certainly is good.

As for the tier's of DD's. Prior to the 2h update, Thief wasn't ever truly acknowledged as the DD that it was. Parses would show time and time again that top geared thief was right up there with axe/axe wars and black belt mnk/nin's, and nin/war's. Ridill war and Mnk/War was another thing, but then again a Mandau thief was almost always better than that. And Mandau was pretty much the DD relic with the most potential at that point.

Now, since SE is absolutely horrible at job balance, they've just swung the pendulum again. I don't really care what's considered the best but I'll always believe in the potential of thief so long as it's clear to me that it's there. It looks tremendously powerful right now. I've always based my judgement on parses or trustworthy math, though, and as I have been gone a long time, I don't really have enough experiences to be sure how DD's stack up these days (though it seems to matter less than ever). But so far from just playing the game for a week and eyeballing various equip setups, things are seeming very good.

Edited, Dec 19th 2010 12:08am by Shamaya
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#48 Dec 18 2010 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
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edited because I'm posting from a friends computer.

Edited, Dec 18th 2010 6:49pm by numps
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#49 Dec 18 2010 at 7:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Shamaya wrote:
Now, since SE is absolutely horrible at job balance, they've just swung the pendulum again. I don't really care what's considered the best but I'll always believe in the potential of thief so long as it's clear to me that it's there. It looks tremendously powerful right now. I've always based my judgement on parses or trustworthy math, though, and as I have been gone a long time, I don't really have enough experiences to be sure how DD's stack up these days (though it seems to matter less than ever). But so far from just playing the game for a week and eyeballing various equip setups, things are seeming very good.


Honestly parses are so hairy anymore because of the way the game has developed. Random parses rarely take into account what abyssites and atma people have, and the fact that people are at different stages of getting their gear means that you can rarely have anything close to a level playing field.

But the thing is that it doesn't really matter who the top parser is anymore. The playing field is much more level now and I don't see anyone get turned away because they're not a specific job. In fact, the need to have coverage on red, blue, and/or green means that the composition of any alliance will most likely include more jobs then one nine months ago. Once you hit the desired !! triggers and you can let the dogs loose the monsters just seem to die.
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#50 Dec 18 2010 at 10:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to add a few thoughts on top of shamaya's but first I want to acknowledge I was wrong with this statement

Quote:
This is not true. Ex: 400/80 = 5. 200/40 = 5. 5/5 = 1. Delay reduction: 400/(80*0.2)=1. 200/(40*0.2)=1. 1/1 = 1. Lower delay weapons don't help more because they don't go into the delay reduction formula, but gets multiplied against it.


I edited that snippet out. I was confusing two different concepts and shamaya explained it correctly. Now with that said...

Like shamaya I've been a thief main for all my playtime; level 75 since 2006. I get defensive about thief's dd potential because I've had to listen to people shun my favorite job for years in a manner I felt was unfair. Shamaya worded his post excellently and the thing I think sticks out the most was this

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Most thieves never got far beyond the AH/sh*ttily geared level, whereas warrior was easier to gear and easier to play. But well geared thieves have always been much stronger compared to sh*ttier thieves, than well geared wars have been compared to sh*ttily geared wars.


Thief needed a lot of stats at level 75 that just weren't readily available like they were to the 2 handed jobs through auction pieces, but instead came from all the rare/ex possessions. When I was a newbie lvl 75 thf my damage was pathetic but I was inspired by my viper bite days and how I had been THE queen of exp party by closing distortion. I put more effort into getting the necessary pieces to make up for my handicaps than I would have had to on the other jobs, but I was rewarded for it with some killer damage potential and I even turned some heads at HNM. There is a ring of truth about thief at Einherjar and Khimaira because sneak and trick attack can do vast amounts of spike DoT there and weakness doesn't affect them.

That brings up my second point. A lot of people only leveled thief to 75 for treasure hunter so they never tried to play it well, nor did they use their abilities. Using warrior's strongest native DD abilities is pretty straightforward button mashing. You hit berserk and aggressor when it's available and that's it. In my case I try and use sneak and trick attack when I can, and if I'm not using it in conjunction with a weaponskill I will swap to a dex/attack set for sneak and an agi/attack set for trick. In order for this to work I also have to be positioned properly. This is a much more complex playstyle and most thieves just saved SA or TA to stack with a weaponskill (many in a one hit wonder SATA ws). When Kinematics added the thief tab to kparser at my request I used it to see how much my crits did, and they were a meaningful contribution to my DoT. I would argue that abusing sneak and trick attack really helped to close the gap on berserk's potential if executed properly because berserk was down 40% of the time, but that's something I can't show through math and it's also subject to gear once again... namely the quality of the sa or ta set used. But when average 2 hander base damage was 100 I had the potential to land two base damage 180+ criticals each minute, and being that they were forced criticals it was a big deal.

Thief always had potential to be a great DD even at 75, but it was literally 10 times easier to gear warrior or samurai or dark knight or w/e to get equal results before the gains on thief would start to outweigh those on other jobs. I needed a majority of everything available but once I had it I blew "GOOD!!" 2 handers out of the water and held my pace with "GREAT" ones. A well geared thief was ten times better than a sh*tty thf than a well geared war was to an auction one if they also played effectively. But how many thieves ever reached that level of play? People almost never saw a GREAT!! thief, and because 95% of thieves sucked thief was branded with the title of "inferior in every way". I hated that because it encouraged people to not even try, which led to more people thinking thf DD sucked, which led to more people accepting gimp thiefs, which began a downward spiral ultimately leading to the attitude that "thief does nothing right except make stuff drop, don't ever use it for anything but treasure hunter". I don't think thief's DD potential was as terrible on HNM as perception made it to be, but that is again the issue of a GOOD thf versus a sh*tty one. You get what you give. This is one of my favorite screenshots from a Nidhogg battle, I closed light which mirrored the damage but didn't show in the log because of a gear swap. Thief always had potential to shine, but between the "You feed to much TP, GTFO THE MOB NOW" and even fewer thfs being properly geared to battle HNM combined with the downward spiral attitude, thief had a bad rep that never healed. "thief is a support/utility class, not a DD and much less a "heavy" dd".

The past is gone now and I want to move on. People who leveled thief for "TH only" are going to level it to 90 againf or that reason, but now many of them will have atmas and abyssites plus great daggers drop off nms they'll probably be fighting anyway (like rapidus sax). Our AF3 set really raises the bar and gives us necessary stats (haste...lots!!), and we don't have to choose between haste and accuracy (or acc at all) anymore. People will want the three furtherance abyssites anyway (ivory is free, flame skimmer almost a given, and Lugarhoo isn't that hard) and +10 every stat will really help SA/TA (even if they DON'T have a dedicated dex/agi set) should they use it like I explained earlier. The razed ruins just further pushes the bounds with sneak and trick attack. Also this warrants note

Quote:

I find it entertaining that you act like you can't, but the biggest obstacle to thieves using /war is thieves themselves. Since I consider myself a whm main I'll cure whoever is taking damage, regardless of if it's a pld, sam, blm or thf. But thieves get hung up on shadows and feel naked without them, and they lose out on 10% dual wield when sub warrior (at least according to wiki they're listed as only having DW1 without /nin). Dancers also do this to themselves, as you would be hard pressed to find one that isn't /nin even though they don't get any of dual wield bonus from doing so.


We do have dual wield II at level 90, and the jobs you listed as top dogs (nin, monk, dnc, war) have three things going for them. Speed, critical weaponskills, and in some cases high attack. I've seen several dancer/war and monk/war and they're godly, and ninja always subs /war. I'm played around with /war myself and if that isn't chart topping damage I don't know WHAT is. The thing people are slowly realizing is that "dead stuff doesn't hurt you...anymore", and my mages all have minikin + w/e else so mana is usually flying. I'm going to close with this. Thf/war also has more max HP than thf/nin, and if you have abyssites of MERIT thf/war isn't that frightening. I'm missing at least two merits and I still have over 2300 max hp thf/war up from ~~1950 thf/nin, and I still have my evasion swap to rely on if I get too low. I'm almost always healed before I die so I've begun to enjoy thf/war at the abyssea brawlfests. I'd encourage others to try it out a few times and see what they think, if your mages have atmas you may be surprised with what you get back.

Edited, Dec 19th 2010 12:04am by Melphina
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There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
#51 Dec 22 2010 at 7:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I am sad every time I see "main thf" running around with hoplite harpe/heart snatcher combo and fulltime scorpion harness and other misc evasion gear. This is at level 90.

I get sad a lot.
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Cyrii
THF74/NIN37 - changed owners (i retired) 10/16/2004

Yarly
BRD PLD THF MNK WAR RNG RDM

http://www.guildwork.com/u/yarly/
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