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Is The Thief Class DPS Worthy In This Game?Follow

#1 Nov 29 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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Hello.

I've played ALOT of MMOs (Most notably I played WoW for 4-5 years, and had only 1 main charicter. AWESOME Rogue class.) And I've been MMO clean for a good 4 months now. Well, my girlfriend wants to play a game together, and is trying to get me to play FFXI. My one rule for playing an MMO is that it has to have a Rogue/Thief/Mugger/Steath class. Now... Does the Thief class in this game have any DPS value? Or PVP value? How screwed will i be if i rolled a Thief?

Edited, Nov 29th 2010 7:43pm by WhiteTopHat
#2 Nov 29 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I would say THF can probably tear it up in Abyssea now if you've got Razed Ruin atma and bothered to quest Evisceration. Of course, if you're not familiar with the game, that probably went all over your head.

Anyway, prior to high level play ("high level" meaning like the situation I depicted above), you're not going to be one of the top DD classes out there. It will take some leveling before you start picking up the various abilities that will help you stand out (Sneak Attack @ 15, Trick Attack @ 30, Dancing Edge @ 56-60 somewhere I forget, Assassin trait @ 60 are the main ones I remember).

One thing you do have working for you, though, is that most non-Abyssea EXP groups try to target colibri (aka Toucan Sams), which take additional damage from piercing weapons, making a THF's daggers super-effective.
#3 Nov 29 2010 at 8:48 PM Rating: Good
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THF is an exceptional DD (damage dealer) at all levels of play (after 15). It does, however, take more work, gear and constant attention than most other DD's do.

The work is mainly running around a lot and in some cases, getting your party members to work with you. Your two most powerful DD abilities carry positional requirements. A lot of the bad Thieves that take up the job do not make full use of these (they can be a bit of a pain to land in large group settings).

Sneak attack requires that you be behind your target and trick attack requires there be a party/alliance member between you and your target.

It gets passive traits that make more treasure drop and has the highest evasion rating in the game, which you can use to solo/tank lots of notorious monsters for good drops later in the game.

When first starting it will seem slow (especially coming from WoW). There are a few mile stones that will see your strength increase greatly if you see them through. A FFXI addiction is like no other lol:

For your first 33ish levels you will actually be better off using crossbows, hand 2 hand weapons and swords due to lack of powerful dagger weaponskills to combine with sneak attack. Be sure you keep dagger skilled up though.

level 15 is when you first learn Sneak Attack and gain access to Acid bolts (For your crossbow. These give a defense down effect and are a very useful tool even at endgame)

level 30 you learn Trick Attack

level 33 you will learn the dagger weapon skil Viper Bite and you will know the power that is SATA Viper bite XD

level 60 you will recieve the job trait assassin which enhances trick attack and learn the weapon skill Dancing Edge. The job changes somewhat here, but for the better.

There are more but these are the most fundamental I think.

Thief is a lot of fun to play but it is one of those jobs you either love or hate. There are a LOT of BAD thieves that level the class just for the treasure hunter traits who have no idea how to deal damage. Consequently you will face a bit of a perception issue with the job in that regard. However, played well, a good Thief is a force to be recconed with. Able to deal lots of damage and avoid lots of damage at the same time.

Edited, Nov 29th 2010 10:06pm by ThiefKiller
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#4 Nov 29 2010 at 9:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Short answer is yes. Thf has a ton of damage potential.

BUT, it will take some serious work to get there. Thf needs a little more finesse to play and a LOT more gear to shine than many DDs. Most DDs just need a "TP set" and a "WS" set. TP set= gear you wear when you are just attacking a mob. WS set=Weapon skill set for doing powerful limit breaks or whatever you want to call them. Straight damage dealing classes can basically get these two things setup and call it a day.

Thf needs many additional sets of gear to maximize their abilities such as sneak attack and trick attack. Thf's 'weapon skills' also require more carefully constructed gearsets. Some jobs are just "stack as much strength as you can get for WS". We have to balance more stats and tweak our gear more to really push the envelope.

The other aspect is that most of Thf's "good" gear cannot be bought from the auction house so you have to invest some serious time to aquire the gear you need to perform well.

All that said, thf has TONS of damage potential. If it is geared well and played well you will stand out among most people. For all the extra effort it may take to really get up there, you are rewarded with a job that can do far more than just hit things. We are the most evasive class in teh game, manipulate the mobs attention, among other abilities AND can give any exclusively Damage Dealing class a run for their money doing it.

Excelling as a thf is more "work" to gear, more attentive to play, and requires a greater understanding of game mechanics (or following good advice well) than most DDs. But most here will tell you this makes thf far more rewarding to play.
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#5 Nov 30 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
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WhiteTopHat wrote:
Hello.

I've played ALOT of MMOs (Most notably I played WoW for 4-5 years, and had only 1 main charicter. AWESOME Rogue class.) And I've been MMO clean for a good 4 months now. Well, my girlfriend wants to play a game together, and is trying to get me to play FFXI. My one rule for playing an MMO is that it has to have a Rogue/Thief/Mugger/Steath class. Now... Does the Thief class in this game have any DPS value? Or PVP value? How screwed will i be if i rolled a Thief?

Edited, Nov 29th 2010 7:43pm by WhiteTopHat


I'll throw out my opinion, since it's a little different then everyone else here (and I'm not thief main, so my opinion isn't as biased as some :p).

First off FFXI isn't really a PVP game. Some people do it, most people don't.

There really isn't a stealth class like in many MMO's in FFXI. You don't sneak up, walk behind a monster and hit your backstab button. There is a mechanic where you can get some extra damage if you use an ability from behind, but it feels much different then most of the invisible stalker classes so many games have.

That being said thief does fair damage. Fair, but I don't see them topping any parses with equally geared heavy DD jobs. Thief mechanics don't work very well in the 18 person monster mash parties that have emerged since the abyssea expansion was released. The mechanic that thief does have is the ability to redirect hate onto a tank, or take it off a healer/nuker/another DD. But the parse topping wow thief doesn't exist in FFXI.

But there are different experiences in FFXI. FFXI thieves are good at soloing named monsters because they have extremely high evasion, and they have passive traits that increase the drops from things they fight. FFXI is also a completely different game then wow in that you don't have to bracket yourself into a single job. A single character can be every single job in the game, and all it takes is a quick trip to town to change what your active job is. With all the variety in the game you're bound to find one that you'll enjoy playing.
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#6 Nov 30 2010 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good
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Short answer : comparing to WoW's Rogue, THF won't match here.

As mentioned above, THF can do a lot of thing and shine in many things. But in the end when you compare only "Damage", it will fell against other Heavy DDs. That's the way of FFXI mechanics are set and that "we" (Thieves) have to struggle with.

For long answer, other above me covered most already. If "damage" is what you seek, THF isn't suited for you. If you're looking for more, you may find your pleasure.
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#7 Nov 30 2010 at 6:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Provided you're willing to do the actual work that is required thoughout the levels (i.e. not letting your Dagger skill fall behind for an instant, grabbing DEX+ and AGI+ items for Sneak/Trick Attacks), Thief can be a very strong melee job without even drawing attention from the target. The job itself doesn't rely on raw power like Dark Knight or Warrior, but on attack speed and spike damage by combining Sneak Attack (and later Assassin's Charge if you choose to acquire it through merit points) with various Weapon Skills.

Note: It would behoove you to actually learn the Evisceration Weapon Skill, as it is a required weapon skill for the final two WS DMG+10% Fusetto Magian trials (500x vs. Plantoids and killing blow x 300 vs. Lizards). It's not the absolute best WS, but worth the trouble of getting for that reason alone.
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#8 Nov 30 2010 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Currently, with abyssea being the focus of ffxi, and barring relic/empyrian weapon skills, eviceration is the best THF weaponskill in FFXI by a good margin.
And I don't see a WS (or any) fusseto being worth it for THF atm.






Edit: spelling

Edited, Nov 30th 2010 9:34am by LordTrey
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#9 Nov 30 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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in ffxi, thief trades some damage potential for utility. it should be mentioned how useful that utility will be as you progress through the game, especially for the first time.

thief can pick locks on treasure chests without spending tons of time looking for a key. having said that, that feature is woefully underused in this game, but the times it is used, it is very handy.

thief also has the highest evasion (both natural and potential) in the game by far. there is little use for this in 18 man alliances, but in low man and solo situations, which the game is trending towards, this is infinately useful.

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#10 Dec 01 2010 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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I don't understand why people still say thief isn't a top dd, because it definitely is. It's easier than ever to gear thief for greatness if you take a little time and learning the job is just practice. Thief is more technical than other DD's and it requires attention to detail, but if you aren't including empyrean weaponskills it's every bit as good as other DD's. Thief just deals its damage in a unique way. Most DD's go in and hack and slash with abilities suited to raising damage directly, but thief needs to utilize positioning to get the job done. Sneak Attack and Trick Attack do some SERIOUS DoT if you use them as your timers are up and can be stacked with weaponskills to boot. We get assassin at level 60 and if you can't land trick attack with 10 bodies clustered around an exp ally mob (seriously you have to be able to hit SOMEONE) then I don't know what to tell ya. I can land sneak attack pretty well even in an ally (Stack it with a weaponskill and use it in conjunction with hide or even hit a mob as it's being pulled to camp if you have to). If you can get your hands on the atma of the razed ruins and another good atma like stout arm or voracious violet then eviceration is one of if not THE strongest non relic/empyrean weaponskills in abyssea. Thief deals its damage through daggers that swing fast and a lot of powerful criticals. And you better believe it can deal just as much if not more damage than most other DD jobs provided you take the time to gear it properly and be attentive. Trust me, I know. I can out DD almost anyone with my thief, but I've gotten the best the game has to offer a thf including all appropriate abyssites and a powerful TP set. The potential is there, it just takes more effort to bring it out. It's very intensive on gear and attention, but if you play thief well it's a rewarding experience, and we are so much more than JUST DD (Treasure hunter, evasion, pulling, bolts, soloing, hate control, tanking and more). I love thief, it really has become an excellent job.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 10:18am by Melphina
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#11 Dec 01 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, a THF can be really strong and outperform a lot, really a lot of most DDs. That is correct, many here prove it many times.

The thing is, if you were dedicated to another Heavy DD job as you were for THF, this Heavy DD will outperform your THF. This game isn't fair.

And I won't agree with you, it require much more to be that effective on THF than on other job. As Banality mentioned. Most DD can live with a standard TP & WS set. We don't. And skill-wise, THF is really much more intensive (and more fun) to play than other common melee job (for me at least, "Damage Dealing" wise I mean).

But that doesn't mean THF is bad, far from that, I think that's why we all here play and enjoy this job (at least those who advocate for it). That's also why some THF like you melph outperform many strong DD.

Keep the good work, it's really good to have player like you around ;)

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 4:57pm by Neraya
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#12 Dec 01 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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There are some distinctions to be made. "Is the thief class DPS WORTHY" is not the same thing as "Is thf DPS the BEST".

There are 20 job in this game. 13 of which can be considered damage dealers (excluded black mage/scholar etc). That is a very wide playing field. It is foolhardy to say "X job is the best" because you change the situation slightly and it is no longer the best as all 13 have different strengths and weaknesses. The lineup for DDs is very different in abyssea than outside. With or without certain buffs and support. With or without a true "tank". Are we fighting colibri or undead skelitons? There are a million situations where jobs are called on to deal damage. With 13 jobs answering that call, there isnt a "best". But there is "worthy". Thf is a very worthy DD and, given the right situation as with all jobs, can excel to incredible heights.

I actually have put as much (if not a smidge more in recent time) effort into my drg as my thf (and far LESS time into my rng lol). It is a complete monster if i say so myself :P There are some distinct times it puts my thf to shame. There are a lot where it is neck and neck, others that my thf can actually surpass my drg, though admittedly, those are rarer, but how are we to value one over the other? Perhaps the way i spend my time in game favors drg, but your experience can favor thf. There is a distinct difference between saying thf can be a top DD and saying thf is THE top DD. With 13 jobs claiming DD status, there is no clear frontrunner.

I wont get into any **** comparison of what jobs are teh BEST DDs because, frankly, the answer is and will always be 'It depends'. Thf does require more effort and attention to reach the top, but if you pit a perfect thf vs a perfect (insert DD job), thf can give anyone a run for their money and get the upper or lower hand depending on the playing field variables. I strongly disagree that thf is an inherently weaker DD. The upper end potential is there, just more difficult to reach and maintain.

The TLDR version is the quality of ANY DD is entirely based on the player and their gear. Should I finish my twashtar and get DW3, my thf will start beating my drg honestly because it would take my thf to a new plane of speed and damage. Rhongimont for drg would not increase its overall damage very much over my current setup. Any job can leapfrog another. To talk about the best you have to compare the jobs with EVERY piece of gear for your job and play FLAWLESSLY, and still have to fabricate some imaginare "standard" situation (mob/buffs/etc) to compare them. All of which is unrealistic to put it mildly. So it will always come down to player vs player, not job vs job.

This is all ignoring this game is in a HUGE state of flux as things drastically change every 3 months until we hit 99 and settle in to the new world. Everything is changing so much it is hard to keep up and re-arrange the "DD hierarchy" constantly.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 11:50am by Banalaty
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#13 Dec 01 2010 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
Stuff.


I'm not trying to get into an argument about how good thief is or isn't, and I'm sure that you can play your thief very well. What I am saying is that if you put as much effort into gearing out and playing a warrior you will do better damage then you would on thief.
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#14 Dec 01 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm not trying to get into an argument about how good thief is or isn't, and I'm sure that you can play your thief very well. What I am saying is that if you put as much effort into gearing out and playing a warrior you will do better damage then you would on thief.


Do better damage where, on what and with what buffs?

If its a piercing weak target i beg to differ.
"But thats not fair to the war" but we still fight LOTS of piercing weak mobs. Why should they not be included?

What if you dont have much haste buffs? (DW>hasso by a mile with little/no haste buffs)
"Haste is always included in comparisons!"
Why? Do you always have haste, double march, haste samba, and in a situation where 2handers can /sam for 80% haste 2handers?

Are we talking about a war fell cleave burning chigoes with cure-bomb/retaliation= fell cleave deathga? NOTHING beats a war in that situation. Period. Does that mean war is the undisputed king of DDs?

The idea of "best" DD is always measured in completely unrealistic and static terms. This 'almost' worked at 75 when everything was based around the great merit party. But this isnt even teh same game anymore as that. There is no such thing as a 'standard' situation anymore. An exp party can be anything from a war+whm fell cleave session to 18man group of a hodgepodge of jobs/people, to a 6man group like ye olden days. The closest we ever had to that was colibri burns at 75. This game is the least static it has ever been. I honestly feel measuring in the normal way we have for years is now a completely archaic and obsolete way to compare DDs.

I am not trying to pick a fight as much as point out that the game has changed, but our mental paradigm has not. We were always trying to measure who can stretch their damage the farthest with our yardstick. DDs now are a liquidy goop we have to measure that can fill a variety of different shapes. To do that we would need to measure the volume, viscosity, expansion under heat and cold, and every possible property. We cant just slap a yardstick down on a puddle of goop and say which is the best these days.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 12:12pm by Banalaty

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 12:16pm by Banalaty
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#15 Dec 01 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Do better damage where, on what and with what buffs? If its a piercing weak target i beg to differ.
"But thats not fair to the war" but we still fight LOTS of piercing weak mobs. Why should they not be included?

What if you dont have much haste buffs? (DW>hasso by a mile with little/no haste buffs)
"Haste is always included in comparisons!"
Why? Do you always have haste, double march, haste samba, and in a situation where 2handers can /sam for 80% haste 2handers?

Are we talking about a war fell cleave burning chigoes with cure-bomb/retaliation= fell cleave deathga? NOTHING beats a war in that situation. Period. Does that mean war is the undisputed king of DDs?

Quote:

The idea of "best" DD is always measured in completely unrealistic and static terms. There is no such thing as a 'standard' situation. I honestly feel measuring in the normal way we have for years is now a completely archaic and obsolete way to compare DDs.


Smiley: lol That was quite the analogy Banalaty, but I agree. The game has evolved beyond level 75 where a well geared thf was a strong competitor in a merit burn, but a lousy addition to a HNM. 2 handers were well rounded but BLM was only GOOD DD vs HNM. Minikin Monstrosity + beyond +fresh II + /Convert made BLM DD worthy everywhere again. DRK gets better returns from Rampage/RR than Guillotine...etc etc etc stuff changed. There are new buffs that cater to different jobs more than others, and fights that favor job A over job B. Ranger is the best melee DD to fight Tonberry Lieje because of blaze spikes, wheres a lot of mobs reset tp to 0 so sam excels there. Two SMNs can duo Turul (shiva + MM + Beyond and HStrike) whereas melees are met with knockback and shock spikes. Nukes take down Itzamoth best yet melees are excellent vs. Ahlumuk. War can hit almost every weaponskill for red !! and WAR + NIN cover all 13 of them!! BLU can get pearl, ruby, azure, AND amber light while thief still has the best highest treasure hunter. There are still a lot of piercing weak mobs but almost nothing is weak to slashing and blunt is much less common. There are new buffs, more buffs than ever and they all cater to different jobs in different ways. We do not always party and occasionally solo (Banalaty mentioned (DW>hasso by a mile with little/no haste buffs).. it's TRUE and that's probably the case when you solo.

In a world where you only ever fight mobs in a 6 person party with the same buffs every time against mobs with the same stats then yes, some jobs will always be better. But this game is unpredictable, mobs can be HIGHLY evasive OR defensive or easy to hit and defend like a paper sack. Bones are piercing resistant (50% dagger penalty.... but a 50% BLUNT bonus) whereas birds are a bonus to dagger but neutral to the rest. Then you have magical damage and more.

I don't think of a top tier DD as the one that deals the MOST damage in one setup. A top tier DD is one that is versatile and consistently performs well in a wide variety of scenarios. Thief IS a top class DD because it has a lot to work with and can keep up with the other DD's in more fights than not. I may not be able to top the charts in a burn against ABC melee setup with XYZ buffs, nor may I necessarily beat a separate set of DDs in damage output against a different type of mob, but I will always be able to contribute meaningfully regardless of what I'm fighting, and that's something I can honestly say I never felt at level 75.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 2:43pm by Melphina
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#16 Dec 01 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
Smiley: lol That was quite the analogy Banalaty, but I agree. The game has evolved beyond level 75 where a well geared thf was a strong competitor in a merit burn, but a lousy addition to a HNM. 2 handers were well rounded but BLM was only GOOD DD vs HNM. Minikin Monstrosity + beyond +fresh II + /Convert made BLM DD worthy everywhere again. DRK gets better returns from Rampage/RR than Guillotine...etc etc etc stuff changed. There are new buffs that cater to different jobs more than others, and fights that favor job A over job B. Ranger is the best melee DD to fight Tonberry Lieje because of blaze spikes, wheres a lot of mobs reset tp to 0 so sam excels there. Two SMNs can duo Turul (shiva + MM + Beyond and HStrike) whereas melees are met with knockback and shock spikes. Nukes take down Itzamoth best yet melees are excellent vs. Ahlumuk. War can hit almost every weaponskill for red !! and WAR + NIN cover all 13 of them!! BLU can get pearl, ruby, azure, AND amber light while thief still has the best highest treasure hunter. There are still a lot of piercing weak mobs but almost nothing is weak to slashing and blunt is much less common. There are new buffs, more buffs than ever and they all cater to different jobs in different ways. We do not always party and occasionally solo (Banalaty mentioned (DW>hasso by a mile with little/no haste buffs).. it's TRUE and that's probably the case when you solo.

In a world where you only ever fight mobs in a 6 person party with the same buffs every time against mobs with the same stats then yes, some jobs will always be better. But this game is unpredictable, mobs can be HIGHLY evasive OR defensive or easy to hit and defend like a paper sack. Bones are piercing resistant (50% dagger penalty.... but a 50% BLUNT bonus) whereas birds are a bonus to dagger but neutral to the rest. Then you have magical damage and more.

I don't think of a top tier DD as the one that deals the MOST damage in one setup. A top tier DD is one that is versatile and consistently performs well in a wide variety of scenarios. Thief IS a top class DD because it has a lot to work with and can keep up with the other DD's in more fights than not. I may not be able to top the charts in a burn against ABC melee setup with XYZ buffs, nor may I necessarily beat a separate set of DDs in damage output against a different type of mob, but I will always be able to contribute meaningfully regardless of what I'm fighting, and that's something I can honestly say I never felt at level 75.

Edited, Dec 1st 2010 2:43pm by Melphina


Again without trying to get anyone all defensive about their job (sigh, too late), try to put your response in context of the original posters question. He's coming from WoW where a rogue should be the parse topper every single time. I'm still going to hold that's not the FFXI thief.
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#17 Dec 01 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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I get what you are saying particularly coming from the wow perspective that rogue basically tops the parse. I just disagree. What job in FFXI tops the parse? War? Drg? Sam? Drk? What is the equivalent of a rogue melee DD that wins virtually all the time in raw damage? I dont even know the answer to that question.

It sounds all hugs and rainbows to say "Everyone is special and has a place. No one is better than anyone else. If you work hard and try with all your might you can be special no matter what you play!"

But honestly, at this point in the game this is how i feel (and i LOVE that i can say that. It shows good game design). Had this been a year ago i would have 100% agreed with you that Thf was respectable if played well, but always 1 step behind an EQUIVALENTLY geared/played DD. My drg/sam with drakes beat the pants off my thf after drakesbane and the 2hander boost and /sam boost. It wasnt even fair. I really started playing thf less and less for a while and focused on my drg.

Enter abyssea, enter atma, enter magian weapons, enter god status that is a DD in todays world. The tables have turned. Anyone with powerful crit WS and good DPS is a king among ants now. Sam gets kinda boned with no crit WS as do drks. The overhyped bandwagon job sam isnt near the top anymore. Drks get shafted. Drgs/wars/thf/(insert tons of jobs) get monterous. **** wyverns and puppets get atma boosts for crying out loud (not sure if bst pets do). You ever seen a pup nuke some stuff with good nuking atma?

Anyway, Ill get off my ramble box as i am sure i am just kicking the horse here and repeating myself. Once things stabalize at 99, I think we will be able to reshuffle the DD hierarchy into a little more stratified positions. But for now, all i ever see these days is, the best player wins regardless of job class.
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Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#18 Dec 05 2010 at 12:29 PM Rating: Default
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Unless things have changed massively since I quit, and I haven't seen anything showing it has, while THF's are plenty capable of leading the parse (at least in merit-type situations, which I would assume Abyssea is, so most end-game situations) it takes a good player working hard to do so. And even then, most people won't think you're good unless they know you personally and parse themselves to see how much damage you do.

THF's in FFXI are a lot like Shadow priests in BC. They can't do the damage of anyone else around them, but they're brought along because they bring something necessary to the group. You are useful to your group, but no one really brings you because of the damage you do. THF's in FFXI are a utility/support class.
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#19 Dec 06 2010 at 3:46 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Unless things have changed massively since I quit, and I haven't seen anything showing it has, while THF's are plenty capable of leading the parse (at least in merit-type situations, which I would assume Abyssea is, so most end-game situations) it takes a good player working hard to do so. And even then, most people won't think you're good unless they know you personally and parse themselves to see how much damage you do.

THF's in FFXI are a lot like Shadow priests in BC. They can't do the damage of anyone else around them, but they're brought along because they bring something necessary to the group. You are useful to your group, but no one really brings you because of the damage you do. THF's in FFXI are a utility/support class.

If you quit at level 75 then, **** yes, everything have changed massively in this game. And as Banalaty is saying, we have lost the stardard way of measuring "the best" DD.
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#20 Dec 06 2010 at 3:57 AM Rating: Good
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I know there have been plenty of changes in the game, but I've seen nothing to boost THF dps aside from a Crit rate trait (which many other classes got) and some minor gear upgrades. Other classes got similar things and more, since most THF changes have been to their utility more than DPS while most other classes got extra dps increases.

And in FFXI, just because things change doesn't mean everything changes. DRG were shunned while leveling and still shunned at 75 for years. DRG's could still perform fine the whole time, though.
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#21 Dec 06 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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SirEaglestrike you've been gone for quite some time ; ;. It's good to see you. But yes, the game has changed dramatically and thief can be a serious DD. The biggest change hasn't come from our gear, but from the atma's and abyssites inside abyssea.

Cruor Buffs -- The standard cruor buffs give +10 to every base stat in the original abyssea zones, and the Pulse Martello usually raises that to 20+ (more potential depending on Bastion victorys) in new zones. There is an abyssite of furtherance in both abyss-la thiene and abyss-misereaux and they each raise the base stats by 10 more points each. They're pretty easy to get and I have both, so that's all stats + 30-40 (or more if Baston has gone well) the moment I step inside abyssea.

Atma's -- The Razed Ruins atma has changed the game. It raises dexterity by 50, critical hit rate by 30%, and critical hit damage by 30%. It is the most destructive force I have ever seen. Thanks to my blue af3 legs I have a 58% melee critical rate and every critical is boosted by 38% (crit attack bonus and RR trait).

The second atma I use is the Voracious Violet which increases strength by 50, double attack by 5%, and a 2 hp/tic regain. That regain is a bigger deal than I originally gave it credit for so I swapped to it from my old secondary atma, the Stout Arm (Stout arm gave me 40 strength and 50 attack for a combined 70 attack).

Between those buffs and the gear we have available (Rapidus Sax, Kila +1, OaT Panz, Belenos's Mantle, Loki's Kaftan, etc) we can throw out some wicked DoT. My dexterity hovers around 250 inside abyssea (ridiculous weaponskill mods) and my strength is near 200 (my dagger will basically be at capped fSTR) and my sneak and trick attacks average around 1K damage each on non piercing mobs and thanks to the razed ruins evisceration is one of the most powerful weaponskills within abyssea.

Thief damage was always heavily reliant upon criticals, and now thanks to the razed ruins not only is our crit rate godly; they all get a big boost to damage (even without any gear for crit damage it's + 38% just from trait + RR alone). If you quit at level 75 you have no idea how much the game has changed. A side effect of all that dexterity is that my accuracy is through the roof, and I can eat red curry buns and still hit 95% hit rate on almost everything I touch, most NM's included (and all the strength boosts my attack heavily as well). The thief job has become an excellent DD inside abyssea, you just need to take the time to get the proper atma's (they aren't that hard honestly, and everybody wants them so organizing a run is easy).

Edited, Dec 6th 2010 9:48am by Melphina
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#22 Dec 06 2010 at 10:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Actually, the crit atma DOES help thf more than any other job (ninja too). It increases crit rate by 30% which thf now has a crit damage boost of ~8% that applies to all the extra crits. It also increases crit damage by 30% which enhances SATA for rather obvious reasons over other jobs with just melee damage. There is also the 50 dex which helps thf more than other jobs. We are one of only 3 jobs that actually use dex modded WS that ALSO is a powerful crit based WS. (Dnc, ninja, thf). There is also the point that the 50 dex=25 acc which helps those 3 jobs out siginificantly more than say.....my drg which is already at or near cap on. 1handers get more boost from acc than 2handers which doesnt need to be explained in great detail.

It is not some omgbbq Thf got 5x as pwerful but other DDs only got 1.5x as good or anything. But it is closing the gap in the important areas. Acc namely. Also it is playing to one of thfs strengths relative to the old "heavy" DDs. Thfs melee DPS is completely astonishing right now. As is Ninja and Dncs.

After today when we all hit 90, what have DD/sams gotten from sub job since 37? Another point or 2 of str from hasso and sekka. Thats it. None of that increases damage in any significant way during a burn where you WS at 100TP. What is thf about to get /nin? TEN PERCENT more DW.

The "small gear upgrades" are anything but. I compared my thf to my drg recently.

My lv 75 gear: (basically everything but dusk+1 gloves)
Thf: 17% haste, 23% DW. (Acc10/DW Mirke, Acc10/atk5/haste3 MKD hat, Skadi legs)
Drg: 21% haste, 10% hasso.

My lv85 gear (only af3+1s):
Thf: 22% haste, 26% DW (ballerines=1% more. Dusk+1=1% more)
Drg: 23% haste, 10% hasso (dusk+1=1% more, Aces legs=1% more)


My Lv 90 with all my AF3 +2ed:
Thf: 24% haste, 36% DW (ballerines=1% more. Dusk+1=1% more)
Drg: 25% haste, 10% hasso. (dusk+1=1% more, Aces legs=1% more)

With ideal gear, both will have 26% fully capped haste. Drg has the option to swap out 1% haste since they have access to 27%. This doesnt count new AF3 hands/body coming out today or other gear/atmas and such also coming out today. My thf has been steadily running up on my drgs coattails (along with other 2handers) in the haste department. My TP sets acc with +2s will be about 30ish higher from gear. 55ish higher with RR atma WHILE adding 3% more DW gear, and 7-8% more haste gear.

This really only leaves Thf's big weakness of crappy atk. But lets look at crits. Thf with RR=38% crit damage boost and ~54% crit rate. Other jobs still get 30% crit damage boost and the same 54% rate. For some simple numbers lets check out Thf with 1.0 pdif vs a 2hander with 1.25 pdif.

Thf: 1.0x damage becomes 2.74x damage on every crit with 38% boost.
2hnd: 1.25xdamage becomes 2.925x damage on every crit with a 30% boost.

Under old rules, non crits would be 25% in 2hnd favor. Crits would still be 12.5% in 2hnd favor, and only ~20% of the time. Now it is 25% on non crits still, but crits are only 5.9% in 2hnd favor, and that is 54% of the time. Toss thf some atk buffs and Dia3 and it will rival any job in the game on melee DPS alone.
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This isnt comprehensive by any means, but just points out the direction this game is going lately.

TLDR version:
You ever play a racing game and turn on the "catchup" option? The front runner car is still the frontrunner, but anyone behind him just goes faster and closes the distance until they catch up. Then those behind pass the frontrunner and loose that boost. It creates a very close back and forth race. This is thf today (and other 1handers).

Thf is catching up on the stats that REALLY matter. The hard cap ones. Haste gear and acc. Atk is suplimented by their crit boost trait and a HUGE boost to crit rate. It is coming down to DW of up to 36% (41% if using auric dagger) vs Hasso. 36% DW is monsterously impressive and I would take that over hasso in anything but 80% haste cap zergs.

This is not to say that thf blows everything out of the water, but the gap is RAPIDLY closing between a top tier thf and a top tier *anything else*. The gear, weapons, and atmas arent just static boosts across the board to all jobs. Every job is approaching the hard caps for "important" DD stats, DW is much more competative vs Hasso now, and a myriad of other adjustments.

This is still ignoring the fact that the 1heal/2support/3DD and 1heal/3support/2DD "Standard" parties used as the epeen barometer barely exist anymore. The game really is radically different than when you left.

Edited, Dec 6th 2010 11:57am by Banalaty
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99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
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Lu Shangs-5/28/08
Twashtar-90
Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

Maat-1/1 Thf Meleed (pansies steal)
Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#23 Dec 06 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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**** wyverns and puppets get atma boosts for crying out loud (not sure if bst pets do)


To protect my job from falling into a second Dark Age, I have to affirm what you're saying that, yes, BST jug pets do get Atma bonuses. Voracious Violet gives my pet Regain.
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#24 Dec 06 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Those are all well and good, but you haven't explained what changes to THF have made them better than the other DPS jobs. THF was PLENTY capable of amazing damage back in the 75 days, I'm a testament of that, so is Archain (though he's a freak of science) but the other jobs could still do just as well, and often better. And as a whole, THF's were seen as inferior...and most were.

From those changes I see two things that effect THF more or less than others:

Crit rate increase/crit damage increase: This will largely help THF regular melee attacks because crits greatly improve pDIF, which is the MAJOR THF issue, low attack (especially with all you sushi sucking nubs out there). However, nearly half of our damage, at least last I played, was from SA/WS, which are 100% crit, so the extra crit% does nothing for those moves, while it fully improves the other jobs. So I'm not seeing this as a great THF buff.

As well, the latest change to TH seems to suggest THF still isn't getting the love it may deserve from the end-game scene, if SE is now going to force THF's to be allowed to attack HNM's. I was responding to the OP, who is used to being a rogue, which has pretty much been THE top DPS in every end-game of WoW (aside from the first tier of each bracket) and has the expectation to be the best, at the top, unrivaled, etc. That's not THF, by a long shot. THF's work hard for recognition, and still don't get it most of the time. I don't think that has changed. You can refute me if that has changed, but I haven't seen anything to show it has.
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#25 Dec 06 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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THF's work hard for recognition, and still don't get it most of the time. I don't think that has changed.
This really hasn't changed, you're right.

Quote:
However, nearly half of our damage, at least last I played, was from SA/WS, which are 100% crit, so the extra crit% does nothing for those moves, while it fully improves the other jobs. So I'm not seeing this as a great THF buff.


Most thieves should be using Evisceration, unless they have Rudra's storm. Evis with 54% crit rate base, + whatever the TP mod adds is pretty beastly. As for crit rate on solo SA / TA: Of course that doesn't help, but they are still boosted via the +30% damage bonus from RR.
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#26 Dec 06 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't see how evisc going from 24% to 54% crit is any better than Rampage going from 20% to 50% crit. In fact, daggers probably lose out.

As well, why wouldn't DE be even better now? It has stronger mods than Evi, unless that has changed. 30% crit would effect both WS's the same, but DE gains from the +10 to CHR too. And last I played Evi and DE were both 30% dex, just with DE having a 40% chr mod too. Did this change? People were harping about Evis before I quit, but I never saw it produce much and DE was always better for me.
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