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Time for a ChangeFollow

#52 Aug 06 2010 at 10:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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redvenomweb wrote:
Listen, this isn't complicated:

It is impossible for every job to be exactly equal; even among 2h jobs, SAMs get picked more than the rest. In MMOs full of mix-maxing players, there will be a pecking order, and someone will be at the bottom. If your argument is that the someone shouldn't be your job, then explain why some other job deserves to be at the bottom more than you do.

THF already has more non-DD utility than any other DD. So why does THF deserve to leapfrog another DD job?

edit:
Banalaty wrote:
If there is already a TH4 thf in an alliance for a fight that does not involve some type of kite/sacing etc, has ANYONE ever been told to come on thf in leu of another DD job? I never have.

This is the entire f'ing point.

Why are you insisting on more toys to compete for spots with other DDs, when you could be asking for more tools so that THEY can't compete with your utility?

Is your goal to be in the alliance, or to be near the top of the parse?

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 8:25am by redvenomweb


You know what, yeah, you're totally right. Thieves are NEVER excluded from an alliance and told to hop on another DD job that isn't SAM, ever. Because most people don't lump all "heavy DD" together, not at all. Obviously there is nothing but SAM (By your example) to anything ever, not even WARs, DRKs and DRGs are considered DD because one may be slightly marginally better! It isn't complicated, it's just silly and completely erroneous logic. Guess what? If your alliance need a DD and you have WAR, DRK, SAM all levelled, most not ****** leaders in any decent LS isn't going to tell you to come SAM, they're going to tell you to pick a DD, and guess what? If you said, "OK then I'll come THF" THEN most would give you ****. Some situations (Turtle HNM for instance) a SAM would be nice due to SCing. Sometimes having an extra stun is nice and you're told to come DRK. But dude, seriously... Your logic is just making no sense. Our "Utility" is worthless currently, adding a DD aspect on an outdated utility isn't going to somehow make us THFs@1 all other DD@2, or do you really think with the current hate system that's going to happen?

tl;dr The **** is this? :\
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#53 Aug 06 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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#54 Aug 06 2010 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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ElvaanTHF wrote:
redvenomweb wrote:
Listen, this isn't complicated:

It is impossible for every job to be exactly equal; even among 2h jobs, SAMs get picked more than the rest. In MMOs full of mix-maxing players, there will be a pecking order, and someone will be at the bottom. If your argument is that the someone shouldn't be your job, then explain why some other job deserves to be at the bottom more than you do.

THF already has more non-DD utility than any other DD. So why does THF deserve to leapfrog another DD job?

edit:
Banalaty wrote:
If there is already a TH4 thf in an alliance for a fight that does not involve some type of kite/sacing etc, has ANYONE ever been told to come on thf in leu of another DD job? I never have.

This is the entire f'ing point.

Why are you insisting on more toys to compete for spots with other DDs, when you could be asking for more tools so that THEY can't compete with your utility?

Is your goal to be in the alliance, or to be near the top of the parse?

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 8:25am by redvenomweb


You know what, yeah, you're totally right. Thieves are NEVER excluded from an alliance and told to hop on another DD job that isn't SAM, ever. Because most people don't lump all "heavy DD" together, not at all. Obviously there is nothing but SAM (By your example) to anything ever, not even WARs, DRKs and DRGs are considered DD because one may be slightly marginally better! It isn't complicated, it's just silly and completely erroneous logic. Guess what? If your alliance need a DD and you have WAR, DRK, SAM all levelled, most not sh*tty leaders in any decent LS isn't going to tell you to come SAM, they're going to tell you to pick a DD, and guess what? If you said, "OK then I'll come THF" THEN most would give you sh*t. Some situations (Turtle HNM for instance) a SAM would be nice due to SCing. Sometimes having an extra stun is nice and you're told to come DRK. But dude, seriously... Your logic is just making no sense. Our "Utility" is worthless currently, adding a DD aspect on an outdated utility isn't going to somehow make us THFs@1 all other DD@2, or do you really think with the current hate system that's going to happen?

tl;dr The @#%^ is this? :\


You are completely missing (or ignoring) his point. Increasing THF's DD potential will never translate into more thieves in the alliance, unless the increase is as broken as the 2hd update (initial) or something. They will still want sams, drgs, wars, drks. Giving THFs more tools that make them useful IN ADDITION to the already good DD they can put up will make them more desired.

Quote:
If your alliance need a DD and you have WAR, DRK, SAM all levelled, most not sh*tty leaders in any decent LS isn't going to tell you to come SAM, they're going to tell you to pick a DD, and guess what? If you said, "OK then I'll come THF" THEN most would give you sh*t


I have thf and drg. When we already have a thf in the alliance and a drg in the alliance for Feint + Angon, my LS leader sometimes gives me the choice what I want to come on. Nobody grumbles when I choose THF. Again, this is a perception issue, not a lack of balance.
#55 Aug 06 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
Banalaty hit the nail on the head. THF doesn't necessarily need higher damage output. More utility would be acceptable. Of course, as thieves we would have the opinion that we offer good utility to a group, however you have to convince the group that thieves offer high utility...

As for the whole DD argument, the game should not be so simple as to say "X class is always the best DD and Y class is always the worst DD". If that is how the game works right now, then it's broken. Factors such as playstyle, merits, and gear should come into consideration. I will accept that a 6-hit Hagun SAM with 18% Haste is going to deal more damage than a Full Homam Blau/SK THF. That is fine. The effort is similar to achieve those builds. However, that is not what I've seen. I've seen Mandau thieves get majorly outparsed by AH SAMs.

Notice also how all 1-handers excluding MNK do not have A+ skill, but all of those jobs add additional utility, some more than others. I think a lot of them are in a similar boat.

If THF is indeed the bottom of the totem pole for damage as you might say, then I'd say that's also a sick, cruel, and insulting joke that SE has done to the player base. We should not require the worst damage-dealing class in the game that offers almost no utility... simply just to make loot drop AT ALL (I'm looking at you, Salvage).

In short, THFs like Banalaty and myself are complaining about being TOLD to go AFK, being told to not engage in a fight... except the last 5%. We want to contribute because we've worked hard on this job in whatever it is supposed to do...
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#56 Aug 06 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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KarellenOfAsura wrote:

In short, THFs like Banalaty and myself are complaining about being TOLD to go AFK, being told to not engage in a fight... except the last 5%. We want to contribute because we've worked hard on this job in whatever it is supposed to do...


Then find a new Linkshell or contribute whether they want you to or not. I have NEVER been asked to not do damage on thf unless we have been fighting something that you just don't melee. If you are being asked to sit out, either try to explain and show your LS that that is ridiculous, or look at the way you play and see if maybe you ARE doing something wrong.

Edit: I did think of a nice 2hr we could have for zergs that would give us some help there if you want a damaging ability for a 2hr

Perfect Strikes: All melee and ranged attacks ignore 20% of targets defense for 30 seconds.

Would give a significant boost to our melee attacks on those zerged fights where the mob has substantially high Def and allow us to maintain respectable damage. For example, it would increase our cRatio on Kirin by approximately .281 @ 450 atk. That would raise our cRatio from .375 @ 80 to .656 a 75% increase in our expected damage. He is an extreme example, but this ability would loose potency on the weaker def mobs that we already do very well on.

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 12:54pm by Meldi
#57 Aug 06 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

This is the entire f'ing point.

Why are you insisting on more toys to compete for spots with other DDs, when you could be asking for more tools so that THEY can't compete with your utility?

Is your goal to be in the alliance, or to be near the top of the parse?


You seem to have missed how in virtually every post I have said they need EITHER 1: More DD powa, OR 2:Support stuff people give a **** about.

In their current state, the only reason you want a thf for anything is for TH. What about things that dont need TH? (KSNM99s and similar large "BC" events spring to mind without direct Treasure off mobs). What if you already have a Thf for something? You DONT get another if there is ANY other choice. What if there is already 1 sam? Are other sams told to packup and come back on a "useful" job? **** no. Is 2 wars a bad thing? 2 whm? Brds? Cors? Tanks? No other job is so 1 dimensional on big events that having a second is a WASTE OF SPACE. Why should thf be the only job where you never want 2, and the 1 is primarily there for the last 5% anyway? Its *********

In their CURRENT STATE, thf needs a reason to exist beyond TH. That CAN be more DD on hard mobs. That is a solution. Its not the only solution, but it is one. If thf did damage in the same league, not greater than, but simply shrink the HUGE gap on hard mobs with "heavy" DDs in some fashion or another, when it comes down to "what job should I come" it will no longer be "we have TH, come on DD (non-thf)" it will be "we have TH, come DD (can include thf). This isnt about winning the parse. Its about bein close enough to other DDs that you wont get insta kicked. Just like in a merit party if 2 DDs are doing 90% of the damage and the 3rd is doing 10%, you /sigh and if you arent in the mood, you will kick them for a rep because they arent pulling their weight. Thf is not pulling its weight on HNMs.

This is not rocket science. This is not about winning the parse. Its about being close enough to the big dogs that you wont be shunned for coming on a job to participate during the whole **** fight. Right now its the same as bein a nin for DD when your group already has 2 plds to tank. People will look at you funny and drop you the 1st chance they get for almost any other DD. (also why Nin could use some help). Upping Nins DD in the same ballpark would keep them from being shunned in the same situation.

As i have said bajillions of times, this is ONE solution. The other is exactly what your saying, enhance our support role. But considering despoil and the other botched "support" additions and SQueenix's inability to realize that people dont want or use hate control tools in the way they have created it, I have far more faith in their ability to just give more DD power. Its the "simple" solution that doesnt require any great stroke of genius to implement. I really dont care which side SE takes, but either will accomplish the goal.

The goal is give thf a reason to participate separate from TH whoreing. The same **** thing thfs have been begging for since this game was released. Put us back in the rat race or leave us out but give us something in return on HNMs. Thf just needs to be able to pull their weight to earn a spot. That CAN be through enhanced DD. OR through enhanced support stuff.
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#58 Aug 06 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Then find a new Linkshell or contribute whether they want you to or not. I have NEVER been asked to not do damage on thf unless we have been fighting something that you just don't melee. If you are being asked to sit out, either try to explain and show your LS that that is ridiculous, or look at the way you play and see if maybe you ARE doing something wrong.


Other post got to long anyway so new one.

For me(cant speak for everyone), its not a terribly large problem until we have overflow. If you only have 18 or fewer people everyone is in all the time and this is not an issue because you are in no matter what. If your only job was a lv 65 pld you would still be stuck there casting cures. Obviously staying in the whole fight is only a problem once overflow happens. At this point what happens? Tanks+mages stay in full time obviously. DDs are rotated every fight (or when they die, whichever comes 1st) and the thf is stuck in at teh start or finish and promtly kicked for more DD. Heaven forbid your a thf without AA's! /GASP!

THIS is the situation. You can talk it up all you want, but unless you are one of the exceptionally leet thfs (mostly on this board) you have no chance in ****. This really isnt much of a problem for old, exceptionally well geared/played thfs like most of us here. This is for when we were young before we had 30 mil in gear. This was before we had established ourselves over YEARS as superior thfs. This is for those that do not have the many benefits we do as ancient (by game standards) veterans with really crazy gear.

The vet and well established thfs like us get spots because we CAN out DD sh*tty/new players. But we are a very rare and elite class of thf. And think of the other thfs in your shells that NEVER go thf because you are all the thf your LS ever needs.

In my LS, we have some very skilled players across all jobs, but they have ample opportunity to play on their new, less shiny jobs. New members arent told to go home if they show up on (insert DD) that isnt as pimped out. New plds get to tank stuff. Non-leet people get to play those jobs. Non-leet thfs are at a SEVERE disadvantage. We (the leet thfs) only get to stay in because there are always other DDs that arent as skilled/geared. But you shouldnt have to play thf for 5 years to be able to participate.

Am i the only one that remembers what it was like as a new 75 thf? Particularly before I had any other jobs leveled? Should a thf really have NO use in a large group without a single piece of friggin dynamis gear? That should tell you something when you HAVE to have
1: AA's just to get into an alli, and then only for the last 5 **** %.
2: Be so **** leet you blow other DDs outta the water with your POWA of 30 mil in gear and played for 5 years to stay in the alli.

********** and an obvious problem

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 2:11pm by Banalaty
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#59 Aug 06 2010 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
You seem to have missed how in virtually every post I have said they need EITHER 1: More DD powa, OR 2:Support stuff people give a sh*t about.

More DD power? You mean like adding ~20% to the DMG rating of endgame daggers across the board? Or maybe if they added a new trait that increases the power of our crits?

When you say that we need "more DD powa or support stuff" (emphasis added), it's important to point out that the "more DD powa" solution only works if SE chooses NOT to also buff the jobs currently above THF in the pecking order. Because if they do, your immediate reaction will be to clamor for MORE "more DD powa" (see: this thread).

It's a neverending treadmill; a rat race with no finish line. DD improvements are fleeting, which is why I continue to insist that players should stop screaming for more damage and start asking for more utility.
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#60 Aug 06 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
For me(cant speak for everyone), its not a terribly large problem until we have overflow. If you only have 18 or fewer people everyone is in all the time and this is not an issue because you are in no matter what. If your only job was a lv 65 pld you would still be stuck there casting cures. Obviously staying in the whole fight is only a problem once overflow happens. At this point what happens? Tanks+mages stay in full time obviously. DDs are rotated every fight (or when they die, whichever comes 1st) and the thf is stuck in at teh start or finish and promtly kicked for more DD.


I don't understand this. Tanks + mages stay in full time. Ok, that is 12 slots full already in the alliance. Ok, DD alliance, need a healer. You want buffs? Brd, or Cor or both, maybe a Dnc. That leaves 2-5 slots for DDs. Guess how many DD jobs there are? DRK, DRG, WAR, MNK, THF, SAM, BLU, lolBST, PUP?? (Don't really think this would go here, but whatever). Realistically, lets say 7 DD jobs, since I almost never see our BST on BST, and I think that PUP would probably be more useful in the BLM pt, maybe.

7 DD jobs to choose from, at most 5 slots to fill, and you think that THF needs to be buffed to the point where it deserves one of those slots 100% of the time?

Personally, I am liking the idea of /dnc more and more for HNM. More and more of them are getting attacks that go right through or wipe shadows, we will get haste samba in the next patch, sure it isn't 10%, but 5% is no joke either. However, this idea will definately turn us more into a support role and not one of DD.

Edit:
Banalaty wrote:
Am i the only one that remembers what it was like as a new 75 thf? Particularly before I had any other jobs leveled? Should a thf really have NO use in a large group without a single piece of friggin dynamis gear? That should tell you something when you HAVE to have
1: AA's just to get into an alli, and then only for the last 5 **** %.
2: Be so **** leet you blow other DDs outta the water with your POWA of 30 mil in gear and played for 5 years to stay in the alli.


I have neither of those. 3 NQ Heca, all sky ones, I generally have slightly higher than average gear. I have never done salvage. I don't even have fully upgraded Kilas yet. Yes, I have been in this LS over 2 years, but I have been going to events almost exclusively as whatever I wanted for at least 1/2 that time.

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 2:04pm by Meldi
#61 Aug 06 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Meldi wrote:


I don't understand this. Tanks + mages stay in full time. Ok, that is 12 slots full already in the alliance. Ok, DD alliance, need a healer. You want buffs? Brd, or Cor or both, maybe a Dnc. That leaves 2-5 slots for DDs. Guess how many DD jobs there are? DRK, DRG, WAR, MNK, THF, SAM, BLU, lolBST, PUP?? (Don't really think this would go here, but whatever). Realistically, lets say 7 DD jobs, since I almost never see our BST on BST, and I think that PUP would probably be more useful in the BLM pt, maybe.


U forgot RNG lol

Quote:

Personally, I am liking the idea of /dnc more and more for HNM. More and more of them are getting attacks that go right through or wipe shadows, we will get haste samba in the next patch, sure it isn't 10%, but 5% is no joke either.


If haste samba is needed then people would just grabs DNC main, If one cant be found I'm pretty sure they would get any other DD to sub dnc instead of inviting a thf/dnc for the slot.

Quote:

I have neither of those. 3 NQ Heca, all sky ones, I generally have slightly higher than average gear. I have never done salvage. I don't even have fully upgraded Kilas yet. Yes, I have been in this LS over 2 years, but I have been going to events almost exclusively as whatever I wanted for at least 1/2 that time.


That comes more from having a liberal LS who knows what a THF can do...or maybe they just don't care. If all LSs were like that there wouldn't be a need for this thread, unfortunately the majority of the playerbase says otherwise.

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 3:28pm by Kalisa
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#62 Aug 06 2010 at 1:57 PM Rating: Default
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Meldi wrote:
KarellenOfAsura wrote:

In short, THFs like Banalaty and myself are complaining about being TOLD to go AFK, being told to not engage in a fight... except the last 5%. We want to contribute because we've worked hard on this job in whatever it is supposed to do...


Then find a new Linkshell or contribute whether they want you to or not. I have NEVER been asked to not do damage on thf unless we have been fighting something that you just don't melee. If you are being asked to sit out, either try to explain and show your LS that that is ridiculous, or look at the way you play and see if maybe you ARE doing something wrong.


None of our thieves have ever been asked to sit out either, but based on us parsing our events, it wouldn't matter if they did (outside of Treasure drops). None of any of our thieves contributions really matter in events beyond making things drop, maybe helping out just a smidge in the damage department to make the fight end 30 seconds faster or make it just a tiny bit easier for the Black Mages to live. However, things would go on as normal whether any of our thieves showed up or not. This is the last job we assign to anyone and it's typically, "Hey one of you 15 dd who also have TH4, go switch."

I don't even want a more damaging 2 Hour for zergs because it doesn't matter. Everything already is overkill so what is the point.

I agree with RVW, different unique utility is where the adjustment is needed. Until then it would just be reshuffling the deck of top DDs rather than introducing new cards.
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#63 Aug 06 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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The main thing about this superior utility that THF is supposed to have over every other DD is

A: Its not very useful. Accomplorator has a nearly debilitating distance limitation, you are often running around sacrificing other things to do it, and its recast timers are too long to be really game changing imo.

B: Trick utility is based on DAMAGE. Even when it is wanted.....some SAM/THF can do it better.

So I disagree with the sentiment that we are asking to be made better than <insert DD job>. I am asking for <instert DD/THF> can't use my utility abilities better than I can. I am asking to be able to fulfil my current DD potential (Read: not to actually increase damage potential at all) by being able to land Sneak and Trick Attack consistantly. I think we are asking to be at least a viable choice for a DD by having a damaging two hour ability just like every other DD class out there.

I don't care about being better than any DD. I care about being good at what I Do. Current party dynamics are limiting my ability to do what I should be able to do (SA, TA etc). I don't think anyone here is asking to be buffed to DD god status. But there are some pretty glaring limitations placed upon us that need looking at in my oppinion.
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#64 Aug 06 2010 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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ThiefKiller wrote:
The main thing about this superior utility that THF is supposed to have over every other DD is

A: Its not very useful. Accomplorator has a nearly debilitating distance limitation, you are often running around sacrificing other things to do it, and its recast timers are too long to be really game changing imo.

Then it seems that you should be asking for increased range and decreased timers on Collaborator/Accomplice, instead of SA/TA-from-any-angle.

Quote:
B: Trick utility is based on DAMAGE. Even when it is wanted.....some SAM/THF can do it better.

So ask for increased enmity generation on Trick Attack. An ability that doubles the enmity of our next action would seem to work well in this regard.

Quote:
So I disagree with the sentiment that we are asking to be made better than <insert DD job>. I am asking for <instert DD/THF> can't use my utility abilities better than I can.

SAM cannot provide TH better than THF can.
SAM cannot Feint better than THF can.
SAM cannot Dispel better than THF can.
SAM cannot steal enmity better than THF can.
SAM cannot DP better than THF can.
SAM cannot hold adds until you are ready to kill them better than THF can.

It seems like the entirety of your complaint is "SAM does a lot more damage than me in HNM alliance." There's more to the game than that.

Quote:
I am asking to be able to fulfil my current DD potential (Read: not to actually increase damage potential at all) by being able to land Sneak and Trick Attack consistantly. I think we are asking to be at least a viable choice for a DD by having a damaging two hour ability just like every other DD class out there.

This is why these kinds of threads are so depressingly misguided.

Let's suppose that you are a god-THF who uses his Jedi powers to track everything going on in the game, and is able to use this information to land 100% of his SAs and TAs. Does this mean that a SAM is going to be told to stay home because THF is on the case? **** no.

Let's also suppose that THF is given, say, Mighty Strikes as their new 2h. Will this change now mean that THFs will be putting DRKs, RNGs, or MNKs on the bench in a zerg? Again, **** no.

So after getting everything you asked for, your real problem (other DDs are more desired than you) isn't even solved, and a THF update, which could have went to something that would be unique and significant, was instead wasted on a meaningless DD update that does not change the actual perception of THF at all.

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 4:40pm by redvenomweb
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#65 Aug 06 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
When you say that we need "more DD powa or support stuff" (emphasis added), it's important to point out that the "more DD powa" solution only works if SE chooses NOT to also buff the jobs currently above THF in the pecking order. Because if they do, your immediate reaction will be to clamor for MORE "more DD powa" (see: this thread).


Dont pretend to be dense. Obviously when people say "buff thf" they mean "buff thf relative to other jobs". Also obviously, this can be accomplished by buffing thf and not others, Buffing everyone but buffing thf MORE (kinda like last update, Dnc got MORE boost than others).

Ill just say it one more time more plainly. "IF" thf is buffed in damage INSTEAD of support abilities(both damage/support buffs based around big game mobs. Not easy ****), then the goal would be to REDUCE the GAP between other 'heavy' DDs and thf because current support abilities do not justify pathetic damage on HNMs compared to SIMILARLY geared/played DDs.

NOT match them. NOT beat them. Reduce the RELATIVE gap between heavy hitters and Thf on HNMs.

You keep describing us getting buffs, then others and leaving us in the same position in the infinite rat race. I am talking about reducing the extremes not just leapfrogging the rat race. To revisit an earlier example to put this whole thing in context:
3DD party. DD1=45% damage. DD2=45% damage. DD3=10% damage. You kick DD3 because they arent pulling their weight. REDUCING the gap would be like:

DD1=35%, DD2=35%, DD3=30%. Only the most ******* elitest would kick DD3 from the alli in this scenario. And they are deuches anyway.

THAT is the kind of change being talked about. Just changing the relative power of DDs by bringing them CLOSER together. Not beating them, not matching them. Not buffin DD3 to do 2x damage then buffing DD1-2 to do 2x damage. Closing the gap will prevent auto kicks. It would keep people from saying "OMG we ahve 2 thfs! Someone go home!" to the standard situation every DD is in. "K you stay this fight then cycle out on next one for another DD".

You can bring jobs closer together with buffs, even keep the same **** pecking order, but if 2 DDs do CLOSE to the same damage, no one will give a ****, and certainly not enough to tell you to go home. People will parse and stroke their epeen, but there wont be the label of "Thf isnt DD so drop them for a "real" DD" when thf can pull their weight on very hard mobs.
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#66 Aug 06 2010 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
Ill just say it one more time more plainly. "IF" thf is buffed in damage INSTEAD of support abilities(both damage/support buffs based around big game mobs. Not easy sh*t), then the goal would be to REDUCE the GAP between other 'heavy' DDs and thf because current support abilities do not justify pathetic damage on HNMs compared to SIMILARLY geared/played DDs.

NOT match them. NOT beat them. Reduce the RELATIVE gap between heavy hitters and Thf on HNMs.

You seem to be totally unfamiliar with the history of this game.

Hey, remember when all anyone wanted for DDs were MNK/NIN/DW WAR? Remember when DRG got buff after buff after buff and people were still like, "lolDRG GTFO"? Remember how DRK got ABS-TP and Dread Spikes and Drain II? Remember how SAM got Hasso and Seigan? Remember how nobody gave a f*ck about any of that stuff because Everyone Knows 2H DDs Are Garbage?

And then the 2h update hit. And overnight, people went from "dual wield 4 life" to "F*CK NINJA IM LEVELING SAM NOW SON!!!" That is the kind of update that it takes to change perception in this game.

Yokodama nerf.
WS TP nerf.
RNG nerf.
2h buff.

These are the kind of over-the-top paradigm shifts that it takes for conventional wisdom to change. Small, conservative boosts (like the kind you claim to want) will not make a difference in what you are and are not permitted to bring to an event. DNC, BST, and PUP just got HUGE buffs and guess what? It's still the same old same old. There are no SAMs who are being asked to sit out to make way for a BST, and there won't be anytime soon.

The entire rationale behind this thread is fundamentally wrong. Even if you got what you are asking for, it wouldn't do what you want. And it's a shame that people who have been playing this game for years have apparently not been paying attention to how the FFXI community works.

Edited, Aug 6th 2010 9:55pm by redvenomweb
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#67 Aug 06 2010 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The entire rationale behind this thread is fundamentally wrong.


No it isn't. You just disagree.

Quote:
Even if you got what you are asking for, it wouldn't do what you want.


If I got what I asked for, it would do exactly what I want.

Quote:
And it's a shame that people who have been playing this game for years have apparently not been paying attention to how the FFXI community works.


It's even more of a shame (albeit slightly entertaining) that you think you are the authority on such things to tell anyone on this board they are wrong for starting or having this discussion.



Edited, Aug 7th 2010 6:49pm by ThiefKiller
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#68 Aug 07 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
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If you want to discuss previous buffs to jobs, the previous "buffs" were leapfrogs (or severe nerfs) that flipflopped the actual rank of DDs. War/nin, Mnk/nin and Nin/war were teh top when DW was the sh*t. Then they 2handed buffed the **** outta things and they leapfrogged past it. Before all that it was Rng FFXI. They got nerfed and leapefrogged backwards. The TP nerf dropped teh hammer on a few DDs. Every prior update HAS been a gigantic swing in the neverending rat race.

Im not proposing that.

Im proposing SMALLER changes no where near the calibur of 2handed Hasso POWA or anything. I want them to raise thf. Not raise the bar for DDs. SE has historically taken the hammer to fix a scratch in teh DD world and its gotten retarded. A little more finesse for a mild boost would be just what the doctor ordered. Some people complaign that DDs shouldnt do similar damage to each other because it takes the variety out of the game or some sh*t. I stronly disagree with that notion.

Bring the DDs closer together in overall damage capacity. Then let the way they do damage determine whats best or desired for a particular event. If it has bad AOEs get blm+rngs. If hate is loose get drgs/smns/pups. If it has high evasion bring a thf. If it needs skillchains bring more sam. If you need damage spiked to **** for zergs, bring drks etc etc.

All DDs are DDs. They just do it with their own twist. We either need more twist (support) or just more DD and stick us back in the pack. Not ahead of the pack. Not behind. IN the pack.

You keep focusing on buffing everyone so it means nothing in the end. DD1 45%, DD2 45%, DD3 10% being adjusted to DD1 35%, DD2 35%, DD3 30% DOESNT DO THAT. This has nothing to do with leapfrogging and being the next bandwagon job in teh never ending wagon. Its just sticking us back in the pack. Not trailing behind. I have no problems buffing the "lesser" DDs so they can all be IN the pack. None whatsoever. I would RATHER everyone be on equal footing and let their specific tweak on DD style determine what DD is 'ideal' in what situation, but doesnt obselete ANY of them.
__________________________________________---
Edit:
Quote:

And then the 2h update hit. And overnight, people went from "dual wield 4 life" to "F*CK NINJA IM LEVELING SAM NOW SON!!!" That is the kind of update that it takes to change perception in this game.


The trouble is, right now its NOT perception. Its actually the way it is. If you have an EQUALLY geared thf vs sam/war/drg etc, the 2hander DOES blow the **** outta us. Can a great thf show up scrub DDs? sure. But can a scrub thf do jack? **** no.

Ill be happy to take on the perception crusade....if its a legitimate one. Everyone can change the perception of those they know in relatively short order by shoving the evidence in their face. But if its not true then there isnt anything to talk about.

Edited, Aug 7th 2010 2:27am by Banalaty
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#69 Aug 07 2010 at 12:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Meldi wrote:


Perfect Strikes: All melee and ranged attacks ignore 20% of targets defense for 30 seconds.


That's just Angon only much, much *********

Edited, Aug 7th 2010 3:40am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#70 Aug 07 2010 at 12:46 AM Rating: Decent
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One potential problem with closing the gap between THF dmg and other DD's is that it could potentially make Mandau fiercely broken.

And then SE drops the nerf hammer on Mandau by making MS fTP 1.5 STR 20% or something stupid like that.

Because I can totally see that happening.



Edited, Aug 7th 2010 3:48am by Lobivopis
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#71 Aug 07 2010 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't care about being better than any DD. I care about being good at what I Do. Current party dynamics are limiting my ability to do what I should be able to do (SA, TA etc

Well said! Thank you.

Quote:
Quote:
So I disagree with the sentiment that we are asking to be made better than <insert DD job>. I am asking for <instert DD/THF> can't use my utility abilities better than I can.

SAM cannot provide TH better than THF can.
SAM cannot Feint better than THF can.
SAM cannot Dispel better than THF can.
SAM cannot steal enmity better than THF can.
SAM cannot DP better than THF can.
SAM cannot hold adds until you are ready to kill them better than THF can

Dispel? Steal enmity? Really? I can't believe those even got listed. Oh.. wait you forgot despoil because we know it is very important, just like aura steal, when looking at job needs for party/alli.

Quote:
You keep focusing on buffing everyone so it means nothing in the end. DD1 45%, DD2 45%, DD3 10% being adjusted to DD1 35%, DD2 35%, DD3 30% DOESNT DO THAT.

Could not have said it better. Thank you.
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#72 Aug 07 2010 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:

All DDs are DDs. They just do it with their own twist. We either need more twist (support) or just more DD and stick us back in the pack. Not ahead of the pack. Not behind. IN the pack.


Despite your presentation in a very logical manner, I'm still with RVW.

We need different utility besides damage to bring us into an alliance or party. We've been trying to compete with real DDs for years now and sometimes the gap has been close but there has always been a gap.

I want to cross a different bridge.

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#73 Aug 07 2010 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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(scanned through the posts, on my iphone at work so excuse me if someone came up with similar ideas)

I just had a random idea for a neat little augment to THFs abilities.

How about an ability (or perhaps a trait), that lends some kind of Offensive or Defensive buff (other than enimity) to the party member trick attacked?

Say, you use this ability and when you use Trick Attack on a DD, you also give them a short "Critical Damage Boost" or "Next WS will deal critical damage" for a short time?

This will promote people 'wanting' to get trick attacked.
Perhaps using this ability could remove the -enimity caused.

If SE gave THF a line of "Stat stealing" abilities, perhaps Trick attack could also transfer these buffs onto the melee when trick attacked?

They could do something like this with Sneak Attack as well. When this Ability is used with Sneak Attack, it adds some kind of "weakened/bleeding" or "Surprised" debuff for a short duration. This debuff could make the mob more susceptible to critical attacks (*including Magical Criticals*) while under the "surprised" effect.
I like this too because this gives a small boost to promote letting the THF close a skillchain and allow a magic burst to do even more damage (I wish Skillchains would make a comeback *sigh)

These allow the THF to still be "Thief-ie", while being a unique buffer/debuffer/DDer, and give it a useful 'niche' again.

Edited, Aug 7th 2010 11:56am by DreamerGuy
#74 Aug 07 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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ThiefKiller wrote:
Quote:
Even if you got what you are asking for, it wouldn't do what you want.


If I got what I asked for, it would do exactly what I want.

DRG got Spirit Link, 20-min Call Wyvern, Accuracy Bonus II, and Spirit Surge (read: two abilities that allow them to fulfill their DD potential for a larger % of the time, an ability that increases their damage, and a damaging 2H). These are the same adjustments you are asking for on THF. And yet after all of these things, DRG was no more desired than before they got them.

But a few people seem to be objecting to my recollection of this game's history, so maybe I'm wrong. Please name the last time that a small, incremental DD adjustment (one that DID NOT actually impact the DD ranking order at all, which you all are claiming as an acceptable result) actually made a significant impact in which DDs were preferred (or even allowed) for events.

THF got a ~20% increase in endgame dagger damage across the board and it did virtually nothing to affect THF's desirability. So I'm interested in seeing which historical counterexamples you cite to prove your point.
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#75 Aug 07 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Banalaty wrote:
You keep focusing on buffing everyone so it means nothing in the end. DD1 45%, DD2 45%, DD3 10% being adjusted to DD1 35%, DD2 35%, DD3 30% DOESNT DO THAT.

No, actually, I'm saying that in the past, adjustments that result in DD1 35%, DD2 35%, DD3 30% do not result in the demand for top-tier DDs being reduced. The only adjustments that have affected demand for top-tier DDs have been whopping, game-changing buffs/nerfs (but you claim that's not what you're asking for THF to get).

And I've cited plenty of historical examples to support my point.

Edited, Aug 7th 2010 12:36pm by redvenomweb
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#76 Aug 07 2010 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
No, actually, I'm saying that in the past, adjustments that result in DD1 35%, DD2 35%, DD3 30% do not result in the demand for top-tier DDs being reduced. The only adjustments that have affected demand for top-tier DDs have been whopping, game-changing buffs/nerfs (but you claim that's not what you're asking for THF to get).

And I've cited plenty of historical examples to support my point.


Were going from different angles at this. I am not talking about percption. Right now people are justified in kicking a thf because a similarly geared/played "DD" beats the pants off us. You cant legislate perception so to speak without the absurd flip flops like SE has done before as you have articulated.

It wont change perception, but I can deal with retarded player perceptions. We will always have to deal with that, but if its actually TRUE what people think theres no hope.

Im not disagreeing with you about changing perceptions. Just the actual output.
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#77 Aug 07 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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redvenomweb wrote:
ThiefKiller wrote:
Quote:
Even if you got what you are asking for, it wouldn't do what you want.


If I got what I asked for, it would do exactly what I want.

DRG got Spirit Link, 20-min Call Wyvern, Accuracy Bonus II, and Spirit Surge (read: two abilities that allow them to fulfill their DD potential for a larger % of the time, an ability that increases their damage, and a damaging 2H). These are the same adjustments you are asking for on THF. And yet after all of these things, DRG was no more desired than before they got them.

But a few people seem to be objecting to my recollection of this game's history, so maybe I'm wrong. Please name the last time that a small, incremental DD adjustment (one that DID NOT actually impact the DD ranking order at all, which you all are claiming as an acceptable result) actually made a significant impact in which DDs were preferred (or even allowed) for events.

THF got a ~20% increase in endgame dagger damage across the board and it did virtually nothing to affect THF's desirability. So I'm interested in seeing which historical counterexamples you cite to prove your point.


The point is: That is not my point. I could really care less about peoples perceptions of THF. I parse regularly and I see the inherant shortcomings with THF DD.

1. We don't have a damaging 2 hour and every other DD job does.
2. We have a harder time keeping up on high defence targets AND we don't have any kind of native subtle blow to ease the TP we feed.
3. Our positional damage dealing abilities are too hard to land consistantly because of the way the game has evolved.

None of these things is a playerbase perception issue. I could care less what stupid people think. I come regularly to events on my THF because my LS knows what I can do.

I don't really want a DD buff. I want a REAL DD 2 hour and I want to be able to land SATA with better than a 75% land rate.

On the subject of utility buffs, your same argument could also apply. Even if they decided to buff our enmity utility a lot more than it is now, I don't see that causing LS's to line up to grab THF's for enmity control either. They don't need it. Why would they sacrafice a more viable DD slot in most cases so that the THF can play enmity support. LS's already do everything in this game without enmity control support.

SE has been forcing that enmity issue on THF for a long time and it has been shunned by the player base over and over. The player base does not value enmity support and I find it very unlikely that any buff that SE would be willing to give would ever fix that. It's just not needed.

Which is why my focus is helping our DD shortcomings. Not to change player base perceptions. Good THFs get invited to DD, as I'm sure many of you on this board can attest to. You have proven yourselves...if you want to come THF, no one has an issue. That doesn't mean we don't have to work twice as hard to keep up. And I don't think what I'm suggesting is unreasonable.

Edited, Aug 7th 2010 6:40pm by ThiefKiller
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#78 Aug 07 2010 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
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redvenomweb wrote:
ThiefKiller wrote:
Quote:
Even if you got what you are asking for, it wouldn't do what you want.


If I got what I asked for, it would do exactly what I want.

DRG got Spirit Link, 20-min Call Wyvern, Accuracy Bonus II, and Spirit Surge (read: two abilities that allow them to fulfill their DD potential for a larger % of the time, an ability that increases their damage, and a damaging 2H). These are the same adjustments you are asking for on THF. And yet after all of these things, DRG was no more desired than before they got them.


Wait, what?

Yes people still think DRG sucks that is why DRKs and WARs never bawww that they didn't get an equivalent WS to Drakesbane.

And nobody wants a non resistible 20% DEF down in endgame zergs which is why DRG is never invited to those events, ever.

And of course DRG is only rarely, if ever invited to merit parties.

Edited, Aug 7th 2010 7:57pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#79 Aug 07 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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Think he left out angon due to it being a utility thing which did increase drgs popularity along with those buffs, that and the fact nearly every mob in the game is piercing weak. Also i dont think war's ever really complained about drake's did they? KJ is plenty powerful and they have RR to use as well. Will give you DRK though.
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#80 Aug 07 2010 at 6:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
SE has been forcing that enmity issue on THF for a long time and it has been shunned by the player base over and over. The player base does not value enmity support and I find it very unlikely that any buff that SE would be willing to give would ever fix that. It's just not needed.


This coupled with the DD deficiency is exactly the problem thief faces against HNM. Tanked HNM (IE: 18 man alliances) do not need a thief to regulate enmity. We know how VE and CE work and guess what? A pair of paladin/nin's can cap their hate just fine. Back before the level increase the standard party to tank something like Nidhogg was a tank party, a mage party, and a melee party with three or four melees to make skillchains for the magic burst. The paladin's would cap their enmity within several minutes with haste/refresh and atonement leaving the melees and DD to let loose. The only time you'd disengage would be when you needed more MP and even then the paladins spammed flash to keep their hate capped. The only time a mage died was by their own fault when they overnuked or did something stupid like standing in front or got unlucky and got hurricane winged after convert. Melees never got hit. I was in the main ally almost full time but I was mostly there to apply feint and Treasuure Hunter. The reason I was allowed to stay in fulltime was because it didn't matter since we had enough power to kill the monster without me. My damage meant little in the long run and collaborater did little more than let me pretend I was doing something useful.

Now before people take this out of context the example I gave of the aery is to emphasize that my utility is not needed at HNM as well as point out my DD deficiencies there. It doesn't matter that this is a mage kill mob because all hnm worked the same. If a Paladin can cap their hate alone (they can) collaborater is unnecessary and if my DD is weak compared to other DD's (it is) there is no reason to ask me to come as thief in place of a better DD if it weren't for my treasure hunter. Collaborater and Accomplice... they mean nothing when we zombie the HNM's anyway. The player base doesn't care if they die... they really don't give a sh*t. They're just going to tractor/raise/reraise and rest so they can get swapped back in later. Take Dark Ix'ion for example. You would build tp by whatever method possible and rush in and unleash your attack then dart out. Our melees died all the time and didn't care. Instead they'd just laugh at how badly they just kicked ix's *** and wait until it was their turn to reenter the alliance. This is how HNM is today and that renders all of the thief's old bag of tricks worthless.

I love thief and I will always defend it's potential through its unique strengths. However I can never deny its gaping flaw against HNM level mobs. When you enter into the league of extremely hard mobs thief can really do only the following

1: Apply the highest level of Treasure Hunter
2: Pull/Sacrifice Pull/Kite adds/Die in a convenient spot away from the team
3: Use accomplice and Collaborater or trick attack our weaponskills onto the main tank (which are still weaker in comparison to those of 2 handers subbing /thf)
4: Flail at the mob and do almost no damage with our melee strikes while it smiles at us; happily absorbing tp so it can kick everyone's *** later when they least expect it.
5: Um... we can look goofy standing there and pretend we're useful. Heck, we can even hit the mob and go make a sandwich and come back half an hour later without anyone noticing we were gone. Now THAT'S efficient multi-tasking!!

Of all those roles how many of them can a thief do that another melee/thf cannot? And of those roles how many of them does anybody else actually care about? If you said number one, and ONLY number one, you would be correct.

Quote:
It wont change perception, but I can deal with retarded player perceptions. We will always have to deal with that, but if its actually TRUE what people think there's no hope.


And this is the problem. When we're fighting a true high level HNM Thief is really THAT WEAK that it's almost a useless spot. If we didn't have treasure hunter we couldn't make any meaningful contribution that another DD job couldn't do VASTLY better. We're not talking a small gap in the damage between a thief and better DD's; we're talking a freakin canyon the size of Rhode Island gap between us and the other DD's. We're just THAT far behind everything else when the mobs level goes too high above us. I feel the same way as the others do about HNM, and you know me. I love a burn and I love everything else thief can do from solo to small man group and lesser HNM and everything in between, but when you deal with extremely tough HNM's the fun is lost. Thief is just THAT inferior against a true HNM.

Edited, Aug 7th 2010 8:31pm by Melphina
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#81 Aug 07 2010 at 7:31 PM Rating: Default
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
Quote:
SE has been forcing that enmity issue on THF for a long time and it has been shunned by the player base over and over. The player base does not value enmity support and I find it very unlikely that any buff that SE would be willing to give would ever fix that. It's just not needed.


This coupled with the DD deficiency is exactly the problem thief faces against HNM. Tanked HNM (IE: 18 man alliances) do not need a thief to regulate enmity. We know how VE and CE work and guess what? A pair of paladin/nin's can cap their hate just fine. Back before the level increase the standard party to tank something like Nidhogg was a tank party, a mage party, and a melee party with three or four melees to make skillchains for the magic burst. The paladin's would cap their enmity within several minutes with haste/refresh and atonement leaving the melees and DD to let loose. The only time you'd disengage would be when you needed more MP and even then the paladins spammed flash to keep their hate capped. The only time a mage died was by their own fault when they overnuked or did something stupid like standing in front or got unlucky and got hurricane winged after convert. Melees never got hit. I was in the main ally almost full time but I was mostly there to apply feint and Treasuure Hunter. The reason I was allowed to stay in fulltime was because it didn't matter since we had enough power to kill the monster without me. My damage meant little in the long run and collaborater did little more than let me pretend I was doing something useful.

Now before people take this out of context the example I gave of the aery is to emphasize that my utility is not needed at HNM as well as point out my DD deficiencies there. It doesn't matter that this is a mage kill mob because all hnm worked the same. If a Paladin can cap their hate alone (they can) collaborater is unnecessary and if my DD is weak compared to other DD's (it is) there is no reason to ask me to come as thief in place of a better DD if it weren't for my treasure hunter. Collaborater and Accomplice... they mean nothing when we zombie the HNM's anyway. The player base doesn't care if they die... they really don't give a sh*t. They're just going to tractor/raise/reraise and rest so they can get swapped back in later. Take Dark Ix'ion for example. You would build tp by whatever method possible and rush in and unleash your attack then dart out. Our melees died all the time and didn't care. Instead they'd just laugh at how badly they just kicked ix's *** and wait until it was their turn to reenter the alliance. This is how HNM is today and that renders all of the thief's old bag of tricks worthless.

I love thief and I will always defend it's potential through its unique strengths. However I can never deny its gaping flaw against HNM level mobs. When you enter into the league of extremely hard mobs thief can really do only the following

1: Apply the highest level of Treasure Hunter
2: Pull/Sacrifice Pull/Kite adds/Die in a convenient spot away from the team
3: Use accomplice and Collaborater or trick attack our weaponskills onto the main tank (which are still weaker in comparison to those of 2 handers subbing /thf)
4: Flail at the mob and do almost no damage with our melee strikes while it smiles at us; happily absorbing tp so it can kick everyone's *** later when they least expect it.
5: Um... we can look goofy standing there and pretend we're useful. Heck, we can even hit the mob and go make a sandwich and come back half an hour later without anyone noticing we were gone. Now THAT'S efficient multi-tasking!!

Of all those roles how many of them can a thief do that another melee/thf cannot? And of those roles how many of them does anybody else actually care about? If you said number one, and ONLY number one, you would be correct.

Quote:
It wont change perception, but I can deal with retarded player perceptions. We will always have to deal with that, but if its actually TRUE what people think there's no hope.


And this is the problem. When we're fighting a true high level HNM Thief is really THAT WEAK that it's almost a useless spot. If we didn't have treasure hunter we couldn't make any meaningful contribution that another DD job couldn't do VASTLY better. We're not talking a small gap in the damage between a thief and better DD's; we're talking a freakin canyon the size of Rhode Island gap between us and the other DD's. We're just THAT far behind everything else when the mobs level goes too high above us. I feel the same way as the others do about HNM, and you know me. I love a burn and I love everything else thief can do from solo to small man group and lesser HNM and everything in between, but when you deal with extremely tough HNM's the fun is lost. Thief is just THAT inferior against a true HNM.

Edited, Aug 7th 2010 8:31pm by Melphina


This so much this.

Except we laugh (all jobs do) about death on every mob, not just Dark Ixion (DI).

Also don't disengage on Nidhogg. Could go yellow and lose to another LS.


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#82 Aug 07 2010 at 7:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Lobivopis wrote:
redvenomweb wrote:
DRG got Spirit Link, 20-min Call Wyvern, Accuracy Bonus II, and Spirit Surge (read: two abilities that allow them to fulfill their DD potential for a larger % of the time, an ability that increases their damage, and a damaging 2H). These are the same adjustments you are asking for on THF. And yet after all of these things, DRG was no more desired than before they got them.


Wait, what?

Yes people still think DRG sucks that is why DRKs and WARs never bawww that they didn't get an equivalent WS to Drakesbane.

And nobody wants a non resistible 20% DEF down in endgame zergs which is why DRG is never invited to those events, ever.

And of course DRG is only rarely, if ever invited to merit parties.

The reason why DRG is popular now has nothing to do with any of the incremental updates that I cited (which were all prior to the 2h buff).

It is solely because of the enormous, game-changing 2h buff. Which the "increase THF's DD!" crowd claims they are not asking for.

Edited, Aug 7th 2010 6:52pm by redvenomweb
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#83 Aug 07 2010 at 7:54 PM Rating: Default
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
When you enter into the league of extremely hard mobs thief can really do only the following

1: Apply the highest level of Treasure Hunter
2: Pull/Sacrifice Pull/Kite adds/Die in a convenient spot away from the team
3: Use accomplice and Collaborater or trick attack our weaponskills onto the main tank (which are still weaker in comparison to those of 2 handers subbing /thf)
4: Flail at the mob and do almost no damage with our melee strikes while it smiles at us; happily absorbing tp so it can kick everyone's *** later when they least expect it.
5: Um... we can look goofy standing there and pretend we're useful. Heck, we can even hit the mob and go make a sandwich and come back half an hour later without anyone noticing we were gone. Now THAT'S efficient multi-tasking!!

Of all those roles how many of them can a thief do that another melee/thf cannot? And of those roles how many of them does anybody else actually care about? If you said number one, and ONLY number one, you would be correct.

Since when can other DDs use Accomplice and Collaborator?

You seem to be implying that TA does the same thing, but it doesn't (not even close); TA is useless for a tank that's already at the hate cap. When a DD hits the hate cap, Collaborator/Accomplice is the single biggest damage increase they can receive.
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#84 Aug 07 2010 at 8:14 PM Rating: Default
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7,094 posts
Banalaty wrote:
Were going from different angles at this. I am not talking about percption. Right now people are justified in kicking a thf because a similarly geared/played "DD" beats the pants off us.

ThiefKiller wrote:
The point is: That is not my point. I could really care less about peoples perceptions of THF.

...what? This is ENTIRELY about perception! Let's go to the tape:

Banalaty wrote:
The request isnt anything about being better than any other DD. It is having ENOUGH DD so that people wont kick thf from the alli for a (insert job of the month) only to invite thf at 5% to stick TH, OR (from my perspective) give thf enough non-DD activities that warrant a slot in an ally with our current DD output.

You want to be kept in the ally over another job. THIS IS PERCEPTION. A modest DD increase will not keep you in the ally over a top-tier DD. Nothing will change, just like nothing changed when this was tried in the past (INCLUDING WHEN IT WAS TRIED FOR THF).

ThiefKiller wrote:
Maybe its just me. But I really feel that if THF is ever going to truly rise to the occasion and be percieved as a legit DD, it NEEDS to stop depending on other people to do it.

Nope, it's not about perception at all!

And didn't you already concede that THF is CURRENTLY a legitimate DD as is?

Meldi wrote:
I have been trying not to reply to this thread, but I just can't do it anymore.

I consistently parse in the top 5 in all of the LS events that I parse. This includes zergs, einherjar, limbus, xp, and other events. Our DD potential is not limited by our job, more often than not, our DD potential is limited because we can't convince our LS that we need the same buffs. Sure, you wont parse comparable to the war that gets a brd and a cor and a dnc when you just have a brd. But given the same buffs, you should be able to be within spitting distance of a good DD on a parse.

...followed by:
Quote:
I hear you Meldi.

I'm sure most of the career THF on this board can produce similar parses. MY issue is not with damage potential, well...except for a new 2 hour.


Some consistency, please?

First you complain that THFs are being kicked from alliances because they can't do enough damage. Then when someone says, "Um, I do plenty of damage, and here's the parses to prove it," the story changes to, "Well, yeah, THF CAN do damage, but no one will let us because they won't give us a chance." And now we're back to "THF can't do enough damage" again?

THF's damage output is fine right now (if you know what you are doing and you are allowed in the DD party to receive DD buffs). An incremental update will do NOTHING to change the perception of the community; you still won't be allowed into the DD party over a top-tier DD. So why ask for it? What will it accomplish? What will change?

In short: why ask for an update that doesn't change anything?
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#85 Aug 07 2010 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Since when can other DDs use Accomplice and Collaborator?

You seem to be implying that TA does the same thing, but it doesn't (not even close); TA is useless for a tank that's already at the hate cap. When a DD hits the hate cap, Collaborator/Accomplice is the single biggest damage increase they can receive.


You misunderstand. I put collaborater and accomplice up there because it falls under the highlighted section below, NOT the former sentence.

Quote:
Of all those roles how many of them can a thief do that another melee/thf cannot? And of those roles how many of them does anybody else actually care about? If you said number one, and ONLY number one, you would be correct.


When you're tanking a HNM nobody cares about collaborater. When you say this

Quote:
When a DD hits the hate cap, Collaborator/Accomplice is the single biggest damage increase they can receive.


You're partially correct. The paladin's are at capped hate so either one of two things will happen. The melee can either cool off their damage for a short bit and resume pounding later, or keep being stupid and die only to get a raise afterward. There are stubborn people who would prefer the second, but most take the first choice (ironically the second choice effectively puts them at zero on both lines so when they re enter the ally they can go all out with zero CE stored up). In either case the Paladins will remain at capped hate no matter what so the heavier DD's are never in real danger unless they do it to themselves.

The most ironic part of all this is that my hate control and enmity generation is more effective in a burn than it is against TRUE HNM. I've joined many picup alliances to forge my magian's weapons and I abuse the sh*t out of collaborater and accomplice in them (abyssea exp alliances as well). Trick attack onto somebody then BAM Sneak attack Dancing edge from behind. Next mob another melee gets the first hit and I let them weaponskill, then I use collaborater and trick attack another person. Etc etc etc. I AM the master of enmity and hate manipulation; this I will grant you. I can turn a mob left, right, sideways and inside out by changing up trick attack + sneak attack solo./weaponskills and collaboratering as needed. But this only matters in a burn. TP burning is where the melees die the MOST because they take hate and eat an unfortunate tp attack that penetrates 3rd eye or utsusemi. It's a TP BURN that my hate manipulation saves lives and keeps the mages mana high. I control where the mob points so it hits a damage mitigation target most of the time when the mobs are squishy. When you're dealing with a true hnm the mob should only ever be pointing at one of two targets... Paladin number 1 or paladin number 2. Both of these targets will cap their hate naturally so my bag of tricks isn't saving anyone anything. It just kinda looks goofy and cool, but it will never sway the flow of a HNM battle.

Edited, Aug 7th 2010 11:36pm by Melphina
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#86 Aug 07 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:
Quote:
When a DD hits the hate cap, Collaborator/Accomplice is the single biggest damage increase they can receive.


You're mostly wrong. The paladin's are at capped hate so either one of two things will happen. The melee can either cool off their damage for a short bit and resume pounding later, or keep being stupid and die only to get a raise afterward. There are stubborn people who would prefer the second, but most take the first choice (ironically the second choice effectively puts them at zero on both lines so when they re enter the ally they can go all out with zero CE stored up). In either case the Paladins will remain at capped hate no matter what so the heavier DD's are never in real danger unless they do it to themselves.

There's a third option: receive Collaborator, which removes 25% of their hate. Then they can deal 5000 TE worth of damage before they have to worry about cooling off their damage again. That's the whole point.

How can you argue that removing 5000 TE has no impact on a DD's ability to deal damage? When we do any tanked HNM, the DD that receives the most Collaborators wins the parse, almost without exception. Even in Kirin zergs, among reasonably comparable DDs, the DD in the party with the THF (that receives Collaborator) deals the most damage, without fail.

Edited, Aug 7th 2010 8:07pm by redvenomweb
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#87 Aug 07 2010 at 9:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to close my thoughts from this thread with this excerpt. Thief is a great and versatile job with many strengths. Evasion, kiting, soloing, pulling, tp burning, enmity manipulation and treasure hunter are among our most notable talents. Our daggers have low damage but swing fast and we have weaponskills with strong modifiers that cater perfectly to average to medium high level targets. Unfortunately a majority of our talents fall by the wayside when you face extremely high level monsters. With no natural way to boost our attack or accuracy coupled with no natural subtle blow putting several thieves against a HNM will do more harm than good. Feint is a tool most suited to a zerg. When you're dealing with a tanked HNM the melees are expected to be able to build tp themselves and anyone who relies on feint for tp will be kicked sooner rather than later. Marinara Pizza +1, the dex boost to 2 handers, and a slew of accuracy and even haste enhancing items and traits (hasso, haubergeon-stat-like armor, and an accuracy bonus trait where applicable) renders feint unnecessary when you're fighting a tanked HNM. The two paladin tanks can and will cap their hate themselves, and while you can argue that collaborater will help the DD's it really isn't necessary.

What I am asking for is a boost specifically aimed towards HNM. I am one of the best DD's you can ever play along side in a tp burn. I can perform all of my jobs functions effortlessly when the mobs are within a reasonable level of my own. However when I face a real HNM my potential doesn't just taper off, it takes a 90 degree nose dive and falls flat on its face. Thief is the HNM version of the Black Mage in a tp burn. Whereas a Black Mage's strengths are opposed to the tp burn way of the game because they are too inefficient to be worth a spot, so too are the thief's talents opposed to the HNM scene. The difference is that the Thief has the Treasure Hunter ability and no other job does, so no matter what there will be one of us on the scene. Unlike tp burns where up until abyssea Black Mages Merely soloed all day, in a HNM you will need one... and only one... thief for that all important ability to make people think stuff is going to drop more. Over time you will see more drops but in any given fight you may still get zero of everything Treasure Hunter can affect. The random number generator can furthermore depress a thief after a HNM battle ends because of this (no recognition at all from your peers sucks). However over time Treasure Hunter will increase drops so there will always be a thief at every HNM battle. That thief will not be able to contribute in a meaningful way like his or her colleagues will and that ruins the fun.

I want to enhance our affinity to criticals somehow. Personally I'd like to greatly increase our critical hit rate even if it means a penalty to attack speed alongside the critical attack bonus. When you're burning criticals do relatively less than when your not because your attack is already high. IE if my dagger's base damage is 40 and I have a 1.5 average pDIF my average hit would be 60 damage and a critical would average to approximately 105 damage. However if my average pDIF is 0.5 my average melee hit would be 20 and my average critical would be approximately 65. This is a much larger difference and it becomes even more profound as my attack ratings edge closer to either extreme. I believe the best answer to enhancing a thief's DD capabilities on HNM lies in our critical affinity. Criticals mean that much more against HNM and there is a fix that can be made there without breaking the balance.

As it is I'm extremely powerful in a burn atmosphere to the point a big overhaul would break me entirely. And yet at the same time when I'm faced with a very high level mob I'm almost a waste of a party spot. Critical hits are the best way to bridge this gap so that I can actually hurt a HNM without upsetting my burn capabilities (especially with the trade off of speed for critical hit rate... I'd NEVER use an ability like that in a burn, but I'd be all over it vs HNM). That's the thief's stance I want to see. But even if they don't make it work the way I want, I really hope s-e does SOMETHING to make me more appealing to a HNM battle. Because as it is it's almost humiliating to fight a HNM battle with the current state of the game. Short of Mandau I have the most elite of the elite equipment a thief can get and I still had to pull teeth to get to the point where I was a fulltime player in HNM battles. It should never take THAT level of effort for people to allow you to fight.... especially when they still beat the crud out of my damage and poke fun at me because they know it the whole way through.

Edited, Aug 7th 2010 11:21pm by Melphina
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#88 Aug 07 2010 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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Niriont wrote:
Think he left out angon due to it being a utility thing which did increase drgs popularity along with those buffs, that and the fact nearly every mob in the game is piercing weak. Also i dont think war's ever really complained about drake's did they? KJ is plenty powerful and they have RR to use as well. Will give you DRK though.


KJ is nice but it's still no Drakesbane.

fTP 1.0 STR 50% 4Hits, TP=chance to crit.



Edited, Aug 8th 2010 1:35am by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#89 Aug 07 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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redvenomweb wrote:

The reason why DRG is popular now has nothing to do with any of the incremental updates that I cited (which were all prior to the 2h buff).


Accuracy Bonus II was added in the SAME update as the 2H buff.

redvenomweb wrote:

Since when can other DDs use Accomplice and Collaborator?

You seem to be implying that TA does the same thing, but it doesn't (not even close); TA is useless for a tank that's already at the hate cap. When a DD hits the hate cap, Collaborator/Accomplice is the single biggest damage increase they can receive.


Nobody cares about hate control in modern FFXI.

Edited, Aug 8th 2010 1:52am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#90 Aug 07 2010 at 11:01 PM Rating: Default
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Lobivopis wrote:
redvenomweb wrote:

The reason why DRG is popular now has nothing to do with any of the incremental updates that I cited (which were all prior to the 2h buff).


Accuracy Bonus II was added in the SAME update as the 2H buff.

Fair enough. However, the point still stands; they received a bunch of other boosts (just not Acc Bonus II), but none of them made any difference in DRG's perception until the one overwhelming boost.
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#91 Aug 07 2010 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm a tad curious.

Are you some of you guys still doing endgame from 3 years ago? Are we still fighting Proto-Omega? Are we still fighting sky gods? That's kind of not fair to say because even something as old as JoL benefits greatly from proper hate management. Yilbegan, for instance, is a long fight where the tank will take tons of damage. There's a really good chance that your white mage/DDs will pull hate eventually. The last thing you want to see when you fight Yilbegan is a moving Yilbegan. Then there's Odin; every good THF already knows the potential the THF job has against Odin. What's more, every TAWS planted on the tank means every DD beating on it can do another WS without worrying about their hate. Dawon's def is pretty weak, so you should be able to do 1k+ with those TAWS. Tell me that your tank, who's constantly eating those Claw Cyclones to the face, won't appreciate that. It's not entirely correct to say that hate management is irrelevant. Also, go tell that SAM/THF to TAWS the tank against Dawon, see how long he lasts.
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#92 Aug 08 2010 at 1:28 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Perception quotes


This is not us against the cruel world that doesnt understand us forcing their bad perceptions on us (see pup :P). Its actually how it is. Top tier cream of the crop thfs have had to work for YEARS in gear and with their groups to get into the alli, but even the most uber non-mandau thfs out there still basically suck on HNMs. Thf gets kicked currently not because of the perception that they suck, but because they DO suck. The perception and reality are one and the same in this case and why most of those quotes can be seen as perception complaints. We are seen as weak DDs because, bluntly, we are weak DDs. We cant do anything until reality actually changes in some way. THEN we can address perception. I want to change the reality. I can deal with FALSE poor perception of a job. I cant really do much when it is true.

Edit: So it wont be taken out of context later, all references to thf sucking or being weak are the exlusive domain of the allmighty HNM.

Edited, Aug 8th 2010 3:29am by Banalaty
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#93 Aug 08 2010 at 2:26 AM Rating: Decent
Ok, so what exactly would be wrong with THFs getting a buff so strong that it shifted the paradigm? I don't know about you guys but I'm really fucking sick of being shat on behind the bandwagon. I want to drive the bandwagon for once in my career. ****, Ninjas can come too, they've been dumped on nearly as bad as we have.

THF have been the buttmonkeys of FFXI for a very very very long time now. We were buttmonkeys when WAR was a better subjob than it was a mainjob. We were buttmonkeys when DRG and DRK were lolDrg and lolEmo. We were buttmonkeys when Nin Mnk and War were the only jobs that could kill anything. We were buttmonkeys when Pup was created. We were buttmonkeys when the Sams became gods in the eyes of the playerbase. We were buttmonkeys when Pup was created. To bring it all home... BST and PUP have become engame relevant before us.

Is it so wrong to want a day in the limelight? We have sucked since this game came out, either through the eyes of the players or through the machinations of the game itself. I want to not have to bust my *** to beat players half as equipped as me in merits, to say nothing of how bad we suck on HNMs. Dammit, I wanna be the next SAM.

Edit: forgot the damned lol job filters

Edited, Aug 8th 2010 3:30am by AldousCayo
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#94 Aug 08 2010 at 3:24 AM Rating: Good
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AldousCayo wrote:
Is it so wrong to want a day in the limelight? We have sucked since this game came out, either through the eyes of the players or through the machinations of the game itself.

yokodama

edit: For the uninitiated, this post pretty much sums up the yokodama era:

Awntawn wrote:
There are 6 slots/roles in a party

1.Bard:
Bard

2.Heal Tank:
White Mage
Red Mage
Summoner

3.Other Mage:
Black Mage
Red Mage

4.Thief:
Thief

5.Tank:
Warrior
Paladin
Ninja

6.Damage-Dealer:
Samurai
Dragoon
Monk
Ranger
Dark Knight
Warrior

Yes, that's right. THF was considered to be so important that other DDs could not even compete with it.

Edited, Aug 8th 2010 2:43am by redvenomweb
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#95 Aug 08 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
I'd like to point out that if people knew what they knew about the game now in the yokodama era, we'd have been tossed aside in favor of the other DDs. I'll give you that we were popular back then, but we weren't good.
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#96 Aug 08 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
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AldousCayo wrote:
I'd like to point out that if people knew what they knew about the game now in the yokodama era, we'd have been tossed aside in favor of the other DDs. I'll give you that we were popular back then, but we weren't good.

Does this argument work to dismiss the RNG era, too? Back then, BRDs sang double Minuet (instead of Marches, which benefit melee) and no one mass-chained VTs. I guess RNG wasn't good either!

You complained that THF never had its time in the limelight, and that it has sucked since release. That statement is clearly at odds with a time where THF was not only the most desired DD, it was so desired that other DDs couldn't even substitute for it. It was the BRD of damage dealers.

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#97 Aug 08 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Default
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THF was a puller. Nobody cared that they couldn't DD.
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#98 Aug 08 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
You complained that THF never had its time in the limelight, and that it has sucked since release. That statement is clearly at odds with a time where THF was not only the most desired DD, it was so desired that other DDs couldn't even substitute for it. It was the BRD of damage dealers.


Ok, fine let me revise my argument. Why can't we be that good again? What precisely would be wrong with that?
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#99 Aug 08 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Default
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AldousCayo wrote:
Quote:
You complained that THF never had its time in the limelight, and that it has sucked since release. That statement is clearly at odds with a time where THF was not only the most desired DD, it was so desired that other DDs couldn't even substitute for it. It was the BRD of damage dealers.


Ok, fine let me revise my argument. Why can't we be that good again? What precisely would be wrong with that?


How long have you played this game?

If it's been since before Treasures of Aht Urghan, then you already know what would be wrong with it.

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#100 Aug 08 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
I've played since January of '04, I've been around for many of the buffs and nerfs that changed the way we play the game. I want a buff that changes THF for the better. Even if we aren't top dog for very long just being top dog will do tons for the perceptions that keep us down. Why would it be bad? We'd have to deal with bandwagon thfs? We don't have TH mules already? A massive buff for THF would be nothing but good for the THFs that already know what they're doing, which I'm pretty sure most of us on this board are.
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#101 Aug 08 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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redvenomweb wrote:
AldousCayo wrote:
Is it so wrong to want a day in the limelight? We have sucked since this game came out, either through the eyes of the players or through the machinations of the game itself.

yokodama

edit: For the uninitiated, this post pretty much sums up the yokodama era:

Awntawn wrote:
There are 6 slots/roles in a party

1.Bard:
Bard

2.Heal Tank:
White Mage
Red Mage
Summoner

3.Other Mage:
Black Mage
Red Mage

4.Thief:
Thief

5.Tank:
Warrior
Paladin
Ninja

6.Damage-Dealer:
Samurai
Dragoon
Monk
Ranger
Dark Knight
Warrior

Yes, that's right. THF was considered to be so important that other DDs could not even compete with it.

Edited, Aug 8th 2010 2:43am by redvenomweb


The "yokodama era" as you call it was only relevant to NAs from October 2003 when FFXI was released in North America until November 2003 when it was removed.

Kinda short to be called an "era" don't you think?





Edited, Aug 8th 2010 7:41pm by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
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