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#1 Feb 02 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I finally have some time to post this. A short review of Vajra after a few events:

Thank you:
I want to say thank you to all the people who helped me get this dagger. It was a long journey. I was surprised to see there are a lot of nice people in this game. People I did not know at all sometimes gave me free alexandrites.

In random order thank you: Seeko, Tsola, Syagin, Dazusu, Metro, Casto, Neo (Dhamel), Ehud, Cinon, Thanopstru, Shaka (royal taru), Yarko, Rizko, Airplane, Dryroot LS, Metrosio, Brotherhood, Guyle, Arcon, Kani, Megaboss LS, Fuuun, Chiefbootron and all other people I am forgetting now. Thank you!


Quest:
The end of the quest is a lot of fun and had me worried. I want to explain it for people who will do this quest in the future.
This is the rat I have started to hate over time: Pararoon. He took all my alex ;_;
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra3.jpg

Next a scene in the palace. I finally get Vajra (locked).
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra4.jpg

Now you have to do a solo BC fight against a Hydra type monster. I was dreading this moment for months. Because I worried about getting d/c during the fight. If you d/c during the fight you get kicked out of the area when you log back in. And you lose all your T4 items.

The fight against Zahak (Hydra) was very easy. I only used one hi-potion here. Bolts do not proc on Hydra. You have to take of its heads with weaponskills. For some reason my Hydra glitched and I had to do four weaponskills. Maybe this is normal.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra5.jpg

After Hydra you fight Balrahn. He uses your weapon against you and does dagger weaponskills in my case. After you get him to 80% HP he will use Mandy stab and he says something. At this point you have to weaponskill him with Mandy stab. I used weaponskills at 100 -> 200 -> 300 tp. But I also read you can go 300 -> 200 -> 100 tp. If you go the second option you have to wait for the aftermath to wear off. Which is annoying.
Important bring bolts to this fight. Blind, acid and bloody all proc on Balrahn. Your inventory will love you for it. I used sushi to land bolts but looking back meat should have worked just as well. Again this fight is really easy. It is nearly impossible to lose. Unless you d/c.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra6.jpg

After you win there is a CS. You can find the rest of the quest info on wiki:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Forging_a_New_Myth

Looks:
The weapon looks like it comes from India. It has this exotic look. I love it. It goes really well with skadi body. Good job SE on the design.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra10.jpg

SA testing:
A short test: Vajra enhances SA effect: how?

My prediction for this test:
I predict that Vajra "enhances SA" will work the same or a bit better then X's. That seems fair and realistic to me for a dagger that is hard to get and starts with a lower base damage: 31 vs 34.

thf/nin SA test with gear:
STR 65+16
DEX 82+54
attack 410
no food during all tests

Test1:
Area: South Gustaberg

Four rounds with different daggers:

I wanted to use behemoth knife as a control dagger. Since its base damage is 31, the same as Vajra. Too bad somebody jacked the price on my server for behemoth knife. AH history is 10k ten times in a row. And I could not buy it for 30k. Price jackers can kiss my Vajra.

thf knife, base dmg: 28 (control dagger)
All targets - Tunnel worm:
1. 525
2. 540
3. 514
4. 529
5. 539
6. 533
7. 515
8. 549
9. 528
10.527

high:549 low:514 average:529,9


X's knife, base dmg: 34 Increases crit damage
All targets - Tunnel worm:
1. 614
2. 624
3. 616
4. 561
5. 601
6. 577
7. 535
8. 574
9. 603
10.616

high:624 low:535 average:592,1


Vajra, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect
All targets - Tunnel worm:
1. 605
2. 595
3. 572
4. 579
5. 597
6. 603
7. 517
8. 614
9. 591
10.587

high:614 low:517 average:586

Oh dear do you see that? X's knife average:592,1. Vajra average:586. First test and X's beats Vajra on SA. SE please don't do this to me. Well it is a small sample size. So that should/could be the problem. Right SE?

Vajra/X's, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect, Increases crit damage
All targets - Tunnel worm:
1. 597
2. 643
3. 667
4. 671
5. 658
6. 660
7. 654
8. 666
9. 668
10.598

high:671 low:597 average:648,2

No surprise here. This tells me the bonus of both Vajra/X's stack with each other.

Test 2:
Area: Wajaom Woodlands

This second test is on Lesser Colibri. I left out my control dagger here. I was shocked to see the results from test 1. X's knife beating Vajra was a fluke. Right SE?

X's knife, base dmg: 34 Increases crit damage
targets - two Lesser Colibri (EP):
1. 696
2. 682
3. 657
4. 592
5. 688
6. 647
7. 596
8. 605
9. 601
10.641

high:696 low:592 average:640,5

Vajra, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect
targets - two Lesser Colibri (EP):
1. 583
2. 621
3. 656
4. 687
5. 708
6. 580
7. 627
8. 640
9. 652
10.566

high:708 low:566 average:632

Ouch! X's knife average:640,5. Vajra average:632 After my first euphoric feeling of getting the dagger and seeing how pretty it looks this was painful to see. X's knife wins this round again! Small sample size bla bla bla.

Vajra/X's, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect, Increases crit damage
targets - three Lesser Colibri (EP):
1. 803
2. 622
3. 752
4. 740
5. 708
6. 773
7. 815
8. 676
9. 720
10.830

high:830 low:622 average:743,9

Again no surprise here. Vajra/X's is a nice combo I think.

Test 3:
Area: Mount Z.

Now I am thinking does a monsters defense has anything to do with this? I mean will Vajra pull ahead on VT/IT monsters? Lets find out.

X's knife, base dmg: 34 Increases crit damage
target - one Hilltroll Ranger (VT):
1. 382
2. 314
3. 322
4. 331
5. 293
6. 380
7. 399
8. 385
9. 355
10.337

high:399 low:293 average:349,8

Vajra, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect
targets - two Hilltroll Ranger (VT):
1. 350
2. 401
3. 357
4. 340
5. 295
6. 336
7. 367
8. 356
9. 322
10.419

high:419 low:295 average:354,3

Okay that is more like it. X's knife average:349,8. Vajra average:354,3. Vajra finally wins a round. About time.

Vajra/X's, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect, Increases crit damage
target - one Hilltroll Ranger (VT):
1. 454
2. 341
3. 320
4. 315
5. 429
6. 336
7. 381
8. 357
9. 364
10.421

high:454 low:315 average:371,8

Aftermath:
Next up the attack boost on level 2 aftermath. I read something about it already on BG and I can confirm most of it.
http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71538

The Aftermath effects for Vajra last for 60/90/120 seconds.

Base attack in tp gear no food: 354
tp at 207 attack:376 - 354 = 22 attack
tp at 299 attack 413 - 354 = 59 attack

The level 3 aftermath is pretty awesome also. It should work well in situations where you can start a fight with 300tp. But holding tp in a merit party to force level 3 aftermath does not seem to work well. More on that later.

Vajra parse
Now it was time to put this dagger to the test in a merit party with some proper DD. I asked Yarko (pimp amano sam) and Rizko (Pimp war E.body and all the nice trimmings).
Camp: Mamool Staging point - North side.

Setup:
Breaze thf/nin (food red curry bun then yellow curry bun)
Yarko sam/war used Amano
Rizko war/sam used GA
Metrosio brd/nin
Luckk brd/whm
Syagin rdm/whm

Damage done:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra8.jpg
Yarko (sam/war) destroyed us and did 40% of all damage. No surprize there. What can I say? Hax weapon, hax job, hax skillchain. Kaiten <-> Mandy stab is light. King's Justice <-> Mandy stab is light. It was so much fun.

This parse lasted 1 hour and 5 min. The actual party was longer in which Rizko (war/sam) died twice. When he died Yarko stopped the parse. That was too bad because I am pretty sure I would have beaten Rizko if they kept the parse going.
And even in this parse I don't think I did that bad. Me 28% versus the war/sam 31%.

Damage taken:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra9.jpg
In my defence I did not take a lot of damage compared to the sam and war. But who cares about that right?

Aftermath level 3 in merits?:
When I started this party I wanted to test the aftermath level 3 effect. Is it good damage? Get 300tp -> WS -> get 2min double attack effect -> get 300tp -> WS -> ect. After 30 min Yarko asked me to use WS at 100tp. I did and he told me it looked better in the parse. It is too bad he did not save that very first parse. For now I am assuming saving tp to 300 is not the way to go in a merit party.
But further testing is needed.

Conclusion:
After a few days I have mixed feelings about this dagger. Yes it looks great and Vajra is a very decent dagger. It certainly is not bad. Vajra/X's makes for a great combo.
My prediction about the SA enhancement did not hold up. X's won on too weak and EP monsters. Vajra won by a small margin on VT monsters. I was predicting them do the same amount of damage. Or even Vajra pulling ahead in all situations. Unfortunately this did not happen.

The dagger seems to lack a bit of punch. Why is its base damage so low at 31?

I have this feeling SE had planned this dagger (and the whole mythic weapon line) for a long time. I am thinking they planned it even before the dagger update three years ago. Then when they finally realised the dagger they forgot to give Vajra the post-lvl-68-dagger-update.

From what I remember: Pre-dagger-update:
Mandau: 32 dmg
X's knife: 29 dmg?

Post-dagger-update:
Mandau: 39 dmg
X's knife: 34 dmg

It seems to me Vajra needs a boost in base damage it has never gotten. Lets say around 35-37 seems fair. This puts it right in between X's and Mandau. If SE decided to give Vajra a boost in base damage it would also show in the parse I did. I would have been even closer to the war/sam or I could have beaten him. Which seems fair to me.

Questions for readers:
1. How could I test the level 1 aftermath? Idea's welcome.
2. Is there something you want me to test and how? (please keep it realistic, I want to play the game also.)

Edited, Jul 8th 2010 12:24am by Breaze
#2 Feb 02 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wouldn't it be reasonable to do it the same way as we used to figure out an aura statue's evasion? Go to sky as thf/sam and check aura statues till you get the normal evasion message, note accuracy. use meditate till you're over 100tp, engage, use MS, disengage and hide, re-check. repeat with necessary gear changes at the same 120 tp mark.

I know i missed a few details in there, but the concept is there.



edit: realized that you could easily check the acc boost at 100 tp as well by hitting med,waiting for first tic, swapping vajra out then back in before second tic on the first med to end up with only 100 tp. You could then use that as a baseline for the 120 tp test.

Edited, Feb 2nd 2010 6:42pm by Urathsa
#3 Feb 02 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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So basically it's almost as good as X's knife on normal defense or lower, and minutely better on high defense...with piss poor DPS and a mediocre aftermath affect with an inferior WS?

Glad to see that V/X stack. I'm guessin Vajra had no affect in offhand?

Would be nice to see it's damage with something extreme like Hope's boost affect, Love's/Kirin's defense, etc. Might be situations where it is actually a lot better and worth using...cause your tests don't show it being worthwhile in many situations.

I wonder if it is adding damage as opposed to a multiplier like X's, which might explain why it takes less of a hit on higher defense things.

In the end 31/200 doesn't really inspire confidence that this would be worth the trouble when you could just sell alexes and buy an X's knife with a fraction of the effort.

Grats nonetheless and cool beans you tested it and posted.
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#4 Feb 02 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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Just wanted to say Congratz on Vajra!!!!
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#5 Feb 03 2010 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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Grats again!

Just a couple days after getting it and you're already feeding us with info ^^. Much <3. And nobody else that's gotten one could've been messed about to do the same.

Testing Acc
For testing acc, what urathsa said would work fine. I was going to recommend just building TP on greater/lesser colibri solo as thf/nin, WS'ing, and then using hide. As he said, verify the point at which you get a message threshold; ie, the thresholds between low:normal and normal:high evasion. Do the check b4 you engage. Then engage that mob and build TP, WS, hide, disengage. And try to check on the acc boost before your aftermath wears off. It might be helpful to have macros to swap from your solo equip, into some acc/eva testing equip. Might have to play around a few times before you find the value.

Also, does the potency of the boost decrease over the duration of the aftermath? Like how feint loses potency steadily from the start to the end of its duration? Or was your level2 +attack aftermath a static number the whole time?

Testing "Enhances Sneak Attack" Effect
I'm thinking too that it's a +Dex/Agi% improvement like the AF+1 hands, just per the text reading. It certainly isn't an artificial, invisible boost to attack (like on Sam's Y/G/K WS's), or you wouldn't gain any boost at all vs worms.

So is I'm guessing the boost is 1 of 3 things:
(1)+Dex/Agi%
Ex: (BD + fStr + Dex/Agi*1.xx)*pDif
(2)+pDif
Ex: (BD + fStr + Dex/Agi)*(pDif +0.xxx)
(3)Straight Multiplier
Ex: (BD + fStr + Dex/Agi]) * pDif * 1.xxMultiplier

X's Knife is either (2) or (3) and I suppose the thinking for now (and the thinking that seems more natural and consistent) would be (2). Off the top of my head, I've previously seen it quoted at a +10% or +12% straight multiplier (*1.1, *1.12), and also as a +0.3 pDif boost.

(1)Is easy enough to test, so I'd go for that if you want to find the precise boost, Breaze. What you'll need to do is this:
*In the above formula, you can control BD (static), fStr (capped) and pDif (capped). Leaving your only variable as Dex/Agi. Do a test in low dex (possibly with -gear) first, and then do another with as much dex as you can stack.
*Obviously gonna be fighting stuff like tunnel worms and/or rabbits. So your pDif is gonna be capped, and you can look at the max/min for capped crit pDif on wiki: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/PDIF
Keep getting samples until your highest recorded SA, divided by your lowest recorded SA, is close to the same number as the known capped-Pdif crit max divided by the min (which is 3.45 / 2.58 = 1.337, funny enough).

News Flash. Our knowledge of the pDif formulas (for 1 handers at least) has changed (finally). I just looked at that wiki article and it seems like it was already updated. I was gonna give you the heads up on this recent pDif testing done by a Frenchy on BG by the name of Masamunai. If you're extra curious on these pDif cap values, you can check out what he's written there.

*After you've got a sample of SA's at low dex, where your (highest dmg)/(lowest dmg) = ~1.337, then you've got a sufficient sample size. Stack an f.ton of dex, and then start doing SA's again. If an SA ever strikes higher than your previous high (outside of the 1.337 boundry), then Vajra's SA Effect Enhancement is being modified by +Dex%.
*To find out the precise enhancement in that case, simply repeat the same test and get a ~1.337 ratio between highest and lowest strikes, when in your buffed +dex set. After that, take the average SA dmg from your +dex set, and the avg dmg from your low dex set, and work backwards algebraically using the SA formula ((BD + fStr + Dex/Agi*1.xx)*pDif) to figure out what 'xx' is.

If you already knew all that, forgive the explanation ;X


If Vajra's boost is via +Dex/Agi%, I imagine it'd work better in lower def situations (though in those situations, your fStr would also be higher too). If via +pDif, I'd say it'd work better in higher def situations (though again, fStr would be lower here).

As for your samples that you did. The first two make it look like X's and Vajra give an equal bonus. If you account for the difference in X's base dmg, the two are quite close. The exception of course is the troll parse. But I'm inclined to think that the sample size isn't high enough.

For tunnel worms in your first test, looks like your X's knife high/low was about 1.16 and for Vajra it was 1.18. Not quite at the 1.337 value yet. For the trolls, your high/low with Vajra was actually 1.42, which would be impossible. That, or the new pDif information is wrong. I just looked and you fought 2 different hilltroll rangers. So they probably differed in level which is what caused this.


Also a final (noob) question. Do Mythic weapons get the 'relic triple'; 2.5x or 3x dmg procs? And grats again^^

Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 10:09am by Shamaya
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#6 Feb 03 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just wanted to point out, for SA tests, really, only the max damage matters not the avg. The max damage will tell us what the bonus is. 10 tests makes the avg a bad mesure because you could just have had bad luck.

Didnt have time to check all of them, but the worm tests are all as expected. Looking at max damage (3.15 crit pdif):

Dex+Fstr+base damage
TK=174
X=180
Vaj=177

Expected damage (your max damage)
TK=174*3.15=548.1 (549): Good
X=180*3.15*1.1=623.7 (624): Good. The 1.1 is the 10% bonus of Xs
Vaj=177*3.15*1.1=613.3 (614) Good. Its the same 10% as Xs.
These are exactly as expected.


Vaj/X=177*3.15*1.1*1.1=674.6 (671)
Vaj/X=177*3.15*1.2=6.69 (671)

The 1st is if the bonus of vaj/x multiply eachother. (Damage+10%)+10% The second is if the 10% of X and Vaj are just stuck together simultaniously as a 20% boost. You overshoot the 20% so Im guessing they multiply which is better, but you never hit 674/675 so im guessing you just didnt get the true max in only 10 tests. More would be appreciated. Otherwise there might be some funky flooring going on.

The higher level tests on both EP colibri and the trolls show vaj with a higher max damage. Pure speculation, but I am guessing Vaj adds some ignore defense or +pdif to SA (and by extension TA). Your would not be capped on lesser coli without food though it would be very high and thus your max damage was not significantly higher than Xs. But it was enough to overcome the base damage difference and then some. This is more pronounced on the much harder trolls reinforcing some sort of atk/pdif bonus or ignore def.

Considering Mandalic stab adds atk, adding attack to SA with vaj sounds plausible.

This is still looking very promising on higher end mobs. Stacking X/vaj on hard things will have some MEAN damage on SA/TA/WS by combining two 10% straight bonuses and whatever Vaj is doing to SA/TA with atk/def and Mandalic stab as a WS adding atk. HNMs look out!
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Edit: Sham beat me, but the dex thing like AF+1 could also be plausibe. But the 10% lines up well so far. As Shamaya suggests, testing with wildy different levels of Dex will cement if its 10% of maybe just +10% dex. Either way, its adding ~10% more damage. That migh also account for the funky rounding that may have thrown of the Vaj+X SA numbers from the expected values.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 1:37am by Banalaty
Edit2:
I removed the 10% assumed bonus on Vaj and replaced it with 10% and 15% dex bonuses. The 10% comes up short of the actual damage. The 15% bonus (floored like AF+1) comes out to 620.55. Your max was 614. Unless its something dumb like a 12.5% bonus to dex, its looking like a flat 10%. If you ever get a max damage of 620, we will know better, but for now it looks like 10% straight damage to me.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 1:43am by Banalaty
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#7 Feb 03 2010 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks all for the reply's. I will do some more tests soonish.

Wanted to add this: the level 1 aftermath bonus was already found. It is +10 at 100tp and scales up linear to +19 at 199tp. I can't believe I missed that.
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Aftermath
Scroll down to the bottom.

The level 2 attack bonus is a static bonus and does not diminish over time (like feint does). So I assume the same goes for the level 1 accuracy bonus.

I also have not seen any triple damage like you see on relic weapons. That would be awesome but I am not expecting to see those.
#8 Feb 03 2010 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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Ehh scratch what I said before about 1.337 ratio. I haven't yet read 100% through this thread nor the updated wiki. Can see in this graph that the spread of capped crit max & min is not 1.0. My mistake, that should have been obvious. Looking at that graph, if it's right, the ratio of max/min at cap for crits is about 1.1864... So some of your worm samples are pretty good, even for being so small. Troll one is definitely way out though.

Should probably finish reading that thread though. It's definitely an important thread since pDif is key to any of the algebra we try to do here.

Edited, Feb 4th 2010 4:02am by Shamaya
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#9 Feb 04 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
In the end 31/200 doesn't really inspire confidence that this would be worth the trouble when you could just sell alexes and buy an X's knife with a fraction of the effort.


While I was happy to read about Vajra's numbers and all (at one point I had really wanted to go for this), this kind of caught my attention. How does one buy an X's knife? I thought it was rare/ex from a BC fight only.
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#10 Feb 04 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Lewkis wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
In the end 31/200 doesn't really inspire confidence that this would be worth the trouble when you could just sell alexes and buy an X's knife with a fraction of the effort.


While I was happy to read about Vajra's numbers and all (at one point I had really wanted to go for this), this kind of caught my attention. How does one buy an X's knife? I thought it was rare/ex from a BC fight only.


You pay people to keep coming to the ENM with you. The drop rate is so bad that people will lose interest in helping you after some time. On top of that, there isn't any other worthwhile drops in this ENM to keep people coming back to help you. I did it for 3 months before my friends got fed up.

I wish SE would buffs the other weapons or add worthwhile sellable drops so that more people would take interest in coming with you. The ENM is very easy but very hard to solo unless you are super good at it.
#11 Feb 04 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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congratulations on finishing the item, and thank you for posting info here.

i'm posting in this thread to point out that there's hidden knowledge in the first post, that a lot of misguided posters should take note of:

Breaze wrote:

Vajra parse

Setup:
Breaze thf/nin (food red curry bun then yellow curry bun)
Yarko sam/war used Amano
Rizko war/sam used GA
Metrosio brd/nin
Luckk brd/whm
Syagin rdm/whm

Damage done:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra8.jpg

Damage taken:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra9.jpg


a lot of people worry about "being an MP sponge" even in a merit party. but look at that parse. yarko did 40%~ damage while rizko did 30%~ damage. however, they took roughly the same damage. what's going on here? in merit parties, hate works in chunks, generally following who happens to be WSing at the time and who's melee damage is the highest (often gets early hate). you share hate. you even share hate when you parse someone into the ground, assuming they don't suck.

also note, these DDs did 280,000~ damage, and took 23,000 damage~. taking player damage buys you more mob damage and XP than it costs you MP. i really wish everyone could understand this.
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#12 Feb 04 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Lewkis wrote:
Quote:
In the end 31/200 doesn't really inspire confidence that this would be worth the trouble when you could just sell alexes and buy an X's knife with a fraction of the effort.


While I was happy to read about Vajra's numbers and all (at one point I had really wanted to go for this), this kind of caught my attention. How does one buy an X's knife? I thought it was rare/ex from a BC fight only.


You go with a merc group and if the knife drops, you buy lotting rights.
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#13 Feb 04 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Nice collection of info.


Quote:
I have this feeling SE had planned this dagger (and the whole mythic weapon line) for a long time. I am thinking they planned it even before the dagger update three years ago. Then when they finally realised the dagger they forgot to give Vajra the post-lvl-68-dagger-update.


I actually don't think this is the case. If you look at the other mythic weapons, almost all of them have DMG ratings that are lower than even the standard AH fare used by several jobs at 75.

That's not to say that I don't think the weapons should be upgraded, but I do think that pretty much all the mythics got dicked DMG-wise, not just the daggers.
#14 Feb 04 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the low DMG on mythics reflects the double attack aftermath, SE didn't want them overpowered.

It seems to me Relics enhance melee more-so than mages, and vice-versa for Mythics.

Many congratulations, that is quite an accomplishment and I'd think a Vajra (melee mythic) owner would always be satisfied with its relatively high DD and the options they give.
#15 Feb 04 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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I think the low DMG on mythics reflects the double attack aftermath, SE didn't want them overpowered.


Not like anyone would regularly save to 300 TP to get it. It practically negates the whole purpose of having a 50~% DA rate, but as far as SE logic goes this is par for the course.

Quote:
It seems to me Relics enhance melee more-so than mages, and vice-versa for Mythics.


In general I would say yeah, particularly for WHM, although I have heard of people pulling off some neat sh*t with Mjollnir + Mystic Boon. Yagrush has a killer mod but is pretty much a worthless offensive weapon. (Although, apparently, it can greatly enhance the potential hate generation of WHM with potential AoE -na spam, allowing for increased tanking opportunities, if for some reason you always dreamed of tanking sh*t on your WHM...)

For the more offensively-based mages though, I'm pretty sure their mythics are still crap/going to be crap once someone finally gets one. There's Nirvana, but really, all of that for -1 perp? Oyyy. I'd have to be career SMN to even think about wanting that over going for anything else, and I would never wish being a career SMN on anyone. >_>
#16 Feb 04 2010 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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*edit* Nevermind, the question I was gonna ask was answered in another thread I spotted.

Edited, Feb 4th 2010 7:14pm by Lewkis
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#17 Feb 04 2010 at 9:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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In response to Lewkis:

The fane baselard can be an excellent mainhand dagger if you get a good augment, but you would always use the blau dolch in the offhand if you own it. The blau dolch is so powerful that barring thief knife scenarios you always have it in ONE hand when dual wielding. Since the fane baselard sucks in the offhand that makes the choice pretty easy. One of the better augments I've seen was a damage + 6, accuracy + 10, triple attack + 1 augment, but a friend of mine from unicorn sent me a PM last year saying he saw someone with an augmented damage + 6, accuracy + 10, triple attack + 2%. That's like... the ultimate combo barring relic.

That said, augments of THAT calibur are ridiculously rare. However there are some pretty good ones to be had in Grauberg (s). Here's a screenshot of my two best daggers

Screenshot



As far as X's knife goes, I actually believe the merc rout is the better way to obtain it. The drop rate is so random and the dagger so desired that a static with more than one or two members who want one will almost never be able to stay together long enough to see everyone's drop to completion. That's how I got my x's knife. I paid 5 million gil for mine to a merc group. It was awesome to watch. They were a simple 3 man static that did the BCNM for money drops weekly anyways. An aegis/D ring /valhalla helm/askar etc etc paladin with a bard and whm support. The paladin freakin soloed all 5 mobs at once, the mithran sister's skillchains barely phased him. I think he was /rdm too (it's been a while) but it was cool as hell. I just poked stuff on the side. I have no regrets I chose that rout, and considering the alternatives of setting up a static and praying it lasts should anyone else get the chance to have theirs merced I wouldn't think they whould either.

Edited, Feb 5th 2010 11:20am by Melphina
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#18 Feb 04 2010 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
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I've seen people offer to merc it but yeah, it's something that isn't commonly done. Someone wanting to merc will probably have to set it up themselves by finding people specifically for it, or finding an ENM group.

It also is important to note that you can do the BCNM more frequently than you might think.. You should try and always find 'dummies' if possible. You could find people on Saturday, tell them about mercing their services, and go do the pre-requisite bcnm with them that very night. The following day, after JP midnight, you should return to the BCNM. It's very important, however, that everyone exits the BCNM before opening the chest, and that only 'the dummy' opens the chest. People outside the BC will still be able to lot on the contents. And then you can return to Tavnazia for what might be a little surprise. I could be more specific/detailed about this, but something is telling me not to.


I don't want to derail off into 2hander damage theory. But what you mentioned earlier Milich is and isn't true. I've been in so many parties, that I can tell that some parties are definitely 'ok' and sometimes better off going the bloody DD route. But there are many parties who also cannot handle 2-3 bloody DD's. Either something is wrong w/ the DD's, the support, or otherwise. You pay in blood for more DPS and faster xp/hr, but when someone ends up dying (like the War dying twice within an hour or more), this almost positively equals a net loss in damage. In all honesty, a /nin who parses at 28% is probably helping party utility a lot more than a /sam or /war who is parsing at 30%. If that /sam or /war is parsing like 36% and not dying or hindering the party from having MP to function, then that's a greater increase in utility.

Disheartening man, thinking of how to even use the Vajra. Maybe Red Curry Bunn and gain a little edge from using the accuracy bonus from Mandalic Stab? Or do DE? Possibly Vajra/X's and push Evisceration to new limits? Use pizza and then, in the event of using Mandalic Stab, go with a lower acc tp build to compensate? Anwig Salade for no aftermath, turban for with aftermath? I just DK. Perhaps Vajra/X's is particularly excellent for a fight like Ixion, or Vajra/war for JoL. I'm struggling to think of the best possible uses, even assuming the SA/TA buff is identical to X's boost increase.
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#19 Feb 05 2010 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
SA/TA buff is identical to X's boost increase.


I really think that it is stronger based on the numbers. On atk capped mobs it showed exactly the same bonus, but on higher level non-atk capped targets, it became progessivly stronger until it beat Xs in both min and max damage AFTER compensating for the lower base damage.

The sample is small, but the results are still telling. I very much believe that there is a 10% just like X's and something else tossed in regarding +atk/Ignore Def or Pdif bonus. Need more testing to figure out what though.

This is still sounding like a zerg or HNM dagger to me. Store TP>unleash hell on a zerg. Enjoy incredible SA/TA/WS on HNM with Vaj or Vaj/X's and Mandalic stab would be the WS of choice anyway so you at least get some aftermath options and depending on buffs etc, could look into the higher tier aftermaths.

After we found out that the aftermath doesnt stack, needs 300tp, and doesnt overwrite itself, it was pretty much determined that none of the DD mythics would be any good in a merit type situation except under very choreographed situations. The all looked promising for zergs, and ours has some promise on HNMs for the above reasons.

Edited, Feb 5th 2010 1:16am by Banalaty
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#20 Feb 05 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Good
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This is still sounding like a zerg or HNM dagger to me.


Zerg dagger? I thought any dagger can land Feint and get you swapped out of the alliance for some 2-hander melee just fine.

You might as well do it with the Thief's Knife and kill two birds with one stone (Feint *AND* TH!)

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#21 Feb 05 2010 at 2:41 AM Rating: Good
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w cheeky. well thf/war and thf/nin aside, thf/drk goes along with mnk/drk as the next strongest DD after drk for souleater-able, longer (ie not the most sam-friendly) zergs. That is, the damage is comparable to a war/sam using mighty strikes, or a very good one not using it. but either way you're just joshin -.-

About Breaze's test on trolls, it's gotta be redone. Earlier I mentioned that in order to have a sufficient sample size of sneak attacks, his highest sneak attack dmg / divided by the lowest sneak attack dmg will have to be close to ~1.186. He said that he did the test on 2 different trolls, and his ratio came out to be 1.4. This is supposedly impossible, at least if obeying normal pDif rules. Even a hidden attack bonus would not be able to adjust the pDif cap. So either something else is going on, or the test was no good because it was tested on trolls of varying levels. So we need a retest high-def stuff.

Edited, Feb 5th 2010 9:57am by Shamaya
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#22 Feb 05 2010 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Mythic could be boosted if only the DA was at 200tp and martial worked offhand.

But, I am happy to see the dagger worked out way better than I assumed it would. For the amounts of work and gil required, it still seems like the most ridiculous rip-off in ffxi history. At least it can be fun.

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#23 Feb 05 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

About Breaze's test on trolls, it's gotta be redone. Earlier I mentioned that in order to have a sufficient sample size of sneak attacks, his highest sneak attack dmg / divided by the lowest sneak attack dmg will have to be close to ~1.186. He said that he did the test on 2 different trolls, and his ratio came out to be 1.4. This is supposedly impossible, at least if obeying normal pDif rules. Even a hidden attack bonus would not be able to adjust the pDif cap. So either something else is going on, or the test was no good because it was tested on trolls of varying levels. So we need a retest high-def stuff.


Diamondhide. Stoneskin will do that, so trolls are useless to parse against if you're looking for sneak and trick attack data. Redo the test on a mob that can't insta cast a damage absorbtion tp move. Better yet, pick a mob that can't raise its own defenses or absorb damage by itself at all. ANYTHING that can be a self buff, from protect to stoneskin to phalanx will nullify tests of sneak and trick attack data. I've used sneak attack and landed my critical for less than 50 damage with x's knife on a troll because of stoneskin. Any mob with similar abilities is worthless. Pick a non beastman type target like phuabo's or flamingos. Xzomits have Molluscous Mutation (Defense Boost) and Hpmedes take triple damage when their mouth is open.

You get the idea. I'd just test on Flamingos in sky for simplicity (alternately colibri work too, but flamingos won't eat your food and if you're eating meat that will also skew data, so you'll have to not eat food at all). The 1.25 piercing bonus multiplier will be constant on every bird, and it's not like they're dangerous or anything. They're also not short in supply either and you get signet bonuses. Just open with a sneak attack on every fight and kick ass. Rinse, repeat, record and repost.

Edited, Feb 6th 2010 5:44am by Melphina
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#24 Feb 05 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress Melphina wrote:


Diamondhide. Stoneskin will do that, so trolls are useless to parse against if you're looking for sneak and trick attack data. Redo the test on a mob that can't insta cast a damage absorbtion tp move. Better yet, pick a mob that can't raise its own defenses or absorb damage by itself at all. ANYTHING that can be a self buff, from protect to stoneskin to phalanx will nullify tests of sneak and trick attack data. I've used sneak attack and landed my critical for less than 50 damage with x's knife on a troll because of stoneskin. Any mob with similar abilities is worthless. Pick a non beastman type target like phuabo's or flamingos. Xzomits have Molluscous Mutation (Defense Boost) and HPmedes take triple damage when their mouth is open.


Actually, you can use something like that to narrow down a pdif/atk bonus(if there is such a bonus) by using something with a predictable buff that doesn't go down, and only using sa/ta when the ability is in use(best example would be crabs defense boost, since we know it gives a 100% boost and should be able to easily tell it's defense through /check tests).
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#25 Feb 05 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Actually, you can use something like that to narrow down a pdif/atk bonus(if there is such a bonus) by using something with a predictable buff that doesn't go down, and only using sa/ta when the ability is in use(best example would be crabs defense boost, since we know it gives a 100% boost and should be able to easily tell it's defense through /check tests).


That's a good point!! Phalanx/stoneskin and other damage absorbtion type abilities aren't good for testing, but straight defense up abilities are. Your example of crabs is a perfect choice. Scissor Guard will double the crabs defense, and it's easy to see. Robber crabs and steelshells in the boyhada tree are an excellent mob choice to test sa/ta bonuses against with regards to a pDIF adjustment. Technically crabs DO have Metallic body, but that's easy to work around. Directly quoting the wiki

Quote:
Metallic Body - 25 HP Stoneskin effect. (Does not differ with crab's level/type)


That's so weak you won't have any problems making sure it's not up when you land your critical. Plus the boyhada tree is an area where you can not only use signet bonuses, but also add your NPC helper for a trick attack partner. I don't know how effective sleep bolts are on steelshells though since they're a higher level paladin mob, but you can just use monomi + sneak attack to open on a crab and then use your npc helper to trick attack upon. Just make sure you use the same ta/sa set every time and record ta/sa numbers separately. Different criticals == different stats due to different gear (duh).

Edited, Feb 5th 2010 12:24pm by Melphina
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#26 Feb 05 2010 at 9:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for the response on Fane baselard, Melphina. I don't own a blau (though I'd love to) so I'll have to go with fane/sirocco for now. Where would you go to get augments for this particular weapon? I don't know a lot about the augment system, but I do know you get different level/types from different areas and whatnot.
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#27 Feb 06 2010 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It seems to me Vajra needs a boost in base damage it has never gotten. Lets say around 35-37 seems fair. This puts it right in between X's and Mandau. If SE decided to give Vajra a boost in base damage it would also show in the parse I did. I would have been even closer to the war/sam or I could have beaten him. Which seems fair to me.



DMG isn't the problem. The problem is that it has a terrible delay and you have to use a highly situational WS in order to get the aftermath effects.

Unlike mandau which is just 100% goodness in all ways.



Edited, Feb 6th 2010 4:17pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#28 Feb 06 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Requim wrote:
In the end 31/200 doesn't really inspire confidence that this would be worth the trouble when you could just sell alexes and buy an X's knife upgrade Mandau.


ftfy

Requim wrote:
fraction of the effort



If you did Requiem of Sin for a year it's still highly likely that you wouldn't get the dagger. Going after X's knife is like killing oldschool Sozu Rogberry once a week.

Edited, Feb 6th 2010 4:20pm by Lobivopis
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#29 Feb 06 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Default
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Shamaya wrote:
ves by finding people specifically for it, or finding an ENM group.

It also is important to note that you can do the BCNM more frequently than you might think.. You should try and always find 'dummies' if possible. You could find people on Saturday, tell them about mercing their services, and go do the pre-requisite bcnm with them that very night. The following day, after JP midnight, you should return to the BCNM. It's very important, however, that everyone exits the BCNM before opening the chest, and that only 'the dummy' opens the chest. People outside the BC will still be able to lot on the contents. And then you can return to Tavnazia for what might be a little surprise. I could be more specific/detailed about this, but something is telling me not to.


If you want to risk getting banned then go ahead and do this.
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#30 Feb 06 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's relatively safe since you're not duping anything but, SE has proven our expectations wrong before.
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#31 Feb 07 2010 at 2:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
This is still sounding like a zerg or HNM dagger to me.


Zerg dagger? I thought any dagger can land Feint and get you swapped out of the alliance for some 2-hander melee just fine.

You might as well do it with the Thief's Knife and kill two birds with one stone (Feint *AND* TH!)

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Sadly.. I have to do it this way sometimes. Baha v2 for example. TH needs to be put on him, and if I switch weapons after the initial blows he's pretty much already at 50% hp minimum, if not dead already.
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#32 Feb 07 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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grats!!! nice testing, thanks for doing it!
#33 Feb 23 2010 at 2:01 AM Rating: Good
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Bump.

Give us the exact potency numbers, Breaze! Still enjoying it or found any niche uses? I'm sure others are still curious <3 ^^;
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#34 Feb 24 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Breaze wrote:
After Hydra you fight Balrahn. He uses your weapon against you and does dagger weaponskills in my case. After you get him to 80% HP he will use Mandy stab and he says something. At this point you have to weaponskill him with Mandy stab. I used weaponskills at 100 -> 200 -> 300 tp. But I also read you can go 300 -> 200 -> 100 tp. If you go the second option you have to wait for the aftermath to wear off. Which is annoying.
Important bring bolts to this fight. Blind, acid and bloody all proc on Balrahn. Your inventory will love you for it. I used sushi to land bolts but looking back meat should have worked just as well. Again this fight is really easy. It is nearly impossible to lose. Unless you d/c.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajra6.jpg

I've been told that Balrahn will 'taunt' you as soon as you engage him.. But here you seem to indicate that didn't happen until 80%? That's worrisome, as expecting 100 TP to take 20% off means after the additional 500+ TP, Balrahn would be dead before you got off your 100/200/300 TP WSs...?

About the Aftermaths that won't overwrite (300 -> 100, 300 -> 200, 200 -> 100), I've heard that, at least during this fight, if you unequip your weapon, the Aftermath wears off.
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#35 Feb 24 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Carrilei wrote:
That's worrisome, as expecting 100 TP to take 20% off means after the additional 500+ TP, Balrahn would be dead before you got off your 100/200/300 TP WSs...?


The first BLU who fought Balrahn didn't know about the Aftermath stacking gimmick and tried to fight him straight up. He found that at 1%, Balrahn stopped taking damage from anything and everything. So there should be no worries on "killing him" before stacking 1->2->3.
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#36 Feb 24 2010 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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Pahn wrote:
A lot of people worry about "being an MP sponge" even in a merit party. but look at that parse. yarko did 40%~ damage while rizko did 30%~ damage. however, they took roughly the same damage. what's going on here? in merit parties, hate works in chunks, generally following who happens to be WSing at the time and who's melee damage is the highest (often gets early hate). you share hate. you even share hate when you parse someone into the ground, assuming they don't suck.


Sam always has the option of dishing out a nice 1K DMG WS's when the mob is @2% HP, which is yet another factor why parses can't really be trusted. I would have expected the WAR to do slightly better however.
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#37 Feb 24 2010 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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Every Sam I know does not hesitate to WS at 2% of the mobs HP. Apoc Drk's are even worse.
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#38 Feb 24 2010 at 10:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Shamaya wrote:
Quote:
Give us the exact potency numbers, Breaze! Still enjoying it or found any niche uses? I'm sure others are still curious <3 ^^;

Yea sorry. I have been playing the game and enjoying my dagger.

Now that I have Vajra for some time I find that I use Mandalic Stab a lot more. But I hardly save 300tp for the aftermath effect.

Did Suzaku with four people. We killed it in about 20 min. I know it is nothing special, rdm/nin can solo this but still we had fun.
I was thf/nin and did most of the tanking. SA Mandalic Stab was doing a consistent 1000+ damage each time /nin with no extra buffs. I only used a yellow curry bun.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Mandystab1.jpg

I also did a dynamis. Which I hate. Dynamis is just not a thf friendly place if you want to DD as a thf. The monsters just move too much. I had a brd in my party this time.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Mandystab2.jpg
The only fun part is to try and TAws one of my fellow DD's during a bad moment. Like when a mnk monster uses hundred fists. For the rest of the run I just want it to be over.

Did some salvage. No bard here. Only yellow curry bun.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Mandystab3.jpg

Exp party. With a bard (duh).
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Mandystab4.jpg

Other things I notice: I never end up with 99tp anymore. That used to happen to me when I used X/blau. Note: I did have skadi legs, rajas ring and brutal at the time and I still found myself with 99tp regularly. I realize you can end up with 99tp for lots of reasons. I just notice it does not happen anymore.

Niche uses: Varja obviously shines more when your damage focuses on SA and TA instead of DoT. So it works good for HNM fights and in places like NW Apollyon. I duo there with a whm/blm for coins. Get 100tp-> sleep monster-> SA Mandalic Stab -> get 100tp. I get 29-33 coins each run.

Varja works well against imps. Like you find in Silver Sea remnants. When you eat amnesia you can't use tp. When amnesia is over you often have 300tp. Then you can go crazy on the poor imp. (And no I don't carry Ecphoria Ring with me.)

And it should do well in zerg fights where you can go /drk and open with 300tp. I still want to try that so much.

@ Carrilei: yes Balrahn will taunt you as soon as you engage him but he won't count your Mandalic Stab at that point. I ws'ed him three times before I got him to 80% HP and nothing happened. Meaning no icon at the top of my screen indicating the aftermath effect.
And you won't kill him either. There is nothing to worry about really. The Balrahn fight is impossible to lose unless you d/c.

I promise I will post potency numbers in the near future. I just can't say when exactly.

Edited, Feb 25th 2010 5:42am by Breaze
#39 Mar 03 2010 at 7:58 PM Rating: Decent
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To comment on some old questions/suggestions: "The troll example is weirdish because diamond hide might have gotten in the way."
I can assure you diamond hide was never on for all SA's I did. I made sure it was off. I think the numbers for the troll are weird because one troll was at the high-end of the VT spectrum and the other was at the low-end of the VT spectrum.

That being said somebody suggested flamingo. So here you go: At 75 these con DC, low evasion, low defense to me.

thf/nin SA test with gear:
STR 65+16
DEX 82+54
attack 410
no food during all tests

X's knife, base dmg: 34 Increases crit damage
targets - two flamingo (DC):
1. 546
2. 543
3. 628
4. 568
5. 610
6. 620
7. 583
8. 508
9. 615
10.670

high:670 low:508 average:589,1

Vajra, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect
targets - two flamingo (DC):
1. 657
2. 658
3. 497
4. 580
5. 658
6. 505
7. 485
8. 582
9. 487
10.571

high:658 low:485 average:568

I am seeing the same pattern as I saw during the first SA tests. X's beating Vajra on high's, low's and average. During the first tests (see OP) you could argue: small sample size but the simple size is getting bigger. I can see a pattern in the four tests I did. Four tests being: worm, colibri, troll, flamingo.

X's/vajra, base dmg:34 Increases crit damage, no effect off-hand
targets - two flamingo (DC):
1. 606
2. 537
3. 592
4. 510
5. 650
6. 518
7. 572
8. 567
9. 625
10.553

high:650 low:510 average:573

I used Vajra here in my off-hand. Just to confirm what SE already said. Mythic effect does not work in the off-hand. If you compare this with the Varja test it is closer. Vajra high:658, X's/vajra high:650. Still pretty shocking to see that Varja is such a let down.

Vajra/X's, base dmg: 31 Enhances SA effect, Increases crit damage
targets - two flamingo (DC):
1. 560
2. 667
3. 618
4. 678
5. 666
6. 556
7. 615
8. 676
9. 668
10.546

high:678 low:546 average:625

This is my control. To show you X's does work in the off-hand and stacks nicely with Vajra.

I am not planning on more Vajra testing. Seeing the game is going on steroids pretty soon. This testing will all be irrelevant. It is nice to have some info and will be interesting to look back on.
I am really looking forward to these updates. SE said they might allow relic and mythic weapons to be upgraded through a new system. I really hope that will allow me to turn Vajra from a decent dagger into a great dagger.

Edited, Mar 4th 2010 7:33am by Breaze
#40 Mar 03 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for your efforts Breaze ^^ While I'd definitely prefer a pure number for the exact increase, as well as precisely how it's acting formulaically, that's a bit much to ask in the context of a video game. As you said too, the game will be changing. IMO, getting the exact # would still be relevant, although there is still a possibility that the Magians questline/system could change the nature of the weapon. Probably not. But hell, we don't even have a 100% solid # for X's Knife (whether it's +pDif or *1.xDmg, and how much).

But speaking from a rationalist perspective, I think we can say that we can be confident that Vajra and X's Knife act on SA/TA in the exact same manner (with the exact same boost); or at least, it's a viable possibility.

What we can gather from your samples:
If you average your X's & X's/Vajra (since we can discard Vajra's functionality in the offhand), your average becomes 581. Compare this to Vajra's avg of 568. The difference is 13. The base dmg diff between the weapons is 3. Assuming you were at the pDif cap, there would be a difference of roughly 9dmg between your avgs assuming the weapons' boost function is the same, and perfect samples. So you're only off by 4 there, which isn't really much given your sample size. Unfortunately you can't include the trolls or the worms because on worms we know your pDif is capped, and on trolls it's probably lower, and thus there will be a disparity in the pDif averages.

But on that note, nobody called me out on a mistake I made before. I was saying that your Troll parse was insufficient because the spread between the max/min was too high. But I was assuming pDif was capped, which wasn't the case.

Either way, the problem w/ not doing a test on lvl1 mobs is that we don't know what your pDif max/min should be unless you know your atk and the mobs def. And thus we can't use the max/min check to determine if the sample is sufficient. Take for example,
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/ffxi/images/2/29/PDIF1H_1.0-2.4.jpg
In the realm of cRatio 1.7->2, the max/min ratio is different at every value of cRatio. Prior and after, though, it's static.

So while your samples can't tell us the exact dmg boost nature of X's or Vajra, it's enough to show that the two are likely the same.


As for the boost that X's gives to crit hits, it's been quoted at +10% to +12%, or even a straight +0.3 to pDif. The difference here is that while a +% increase would be static at all pDif's, +0.3 would get better as pDif got lower.

Setting aside the possibility that Vajra might function by raising base damage via Dex/Agi and that your samples are mere coincidence, there's also the low possibility that Vajra gives +pDif and X's gives a straight % increase. This would explain why Vajra pulled ahead in your troll sample. However, if you take the max/min's of each sample, they're significantly different (for X's, about 1.36, and Vajra, about 1.42), so nothing can be concluded. Even if they acted differently, with sufficient samples the max/min for both would be the same.


Now onto whether I think the boosts on these weapons are +pDif or straight % multiplier. And also, if they're straight multipliers, do they stack together additionally or multiply together. For example, if the boost was 10%, would it boost dmg by pDif*1.2 or would it be pDif*1.1*1.1
*at the pDif cap, max is 3.14, low 2.67, and avg 2.9
(don't worry about the how these don't look neatly rounded in decimal)
*assuming +0.3 pDif, at pDif cap, the dmg increase would be ~10.34% (3.2/2.9)
*and at lower atk/def, this would get higher
*assuming Vajra/X give the same boost, combining them together would double the effect
*Vajra/X's increase over Vajra is 10.0%
*if you include X's & X's/Vajra samples and adjust for base dmg difference, Vajra/X's increase is 10.1%
*if X's/Vajra's boost is +10%, then stacking would be +20%. 1.2/1.1 = 1.091. Or we'd expect to see 9.1% increase using Vajra/X's. If the boosts are 11% then stacking them would give us a 9.9% marginal increase over the last. If 12%, then 10.7% increase.
*assuming the boosts were +0.3 pDif and we were at the pDif cap, then our boost from Vajra/X's over plain Vajra would be (2.9+0.6)/(2.9+0.3) or 9.375%. Going lower in pDif avg, for example doing it at 2.7, the expected increase would be exactly 10%.



**************************
Alright, I've decided to stop right there. Looking at the max/min for Vajra/X's, the spread is 1.24 and in the case of the avg of the other samples, the spread is 1.32. That and we don't know avg pDif for sure because we don't know mob Def. So nothing can really be concluded yet from these samples >,<. I'm sorry Breaze I tried ; ;

TLDR
Remaining thoughts:
*There are 3 ways I can think of that SA/TA can be boosted:
-By adjusting Dex/Agi (like af+1)
-By adding pDif
-By acting as a straight multiplier to the dmg formula
*X's and Vajra may have the same type of boost. They may not.
*Assuming it was the same type of boost, one weapon might still be more potent than the other. Or possibly not.
*There is also the small possibility that instead of just stacking together, Vajra & X's together could be even better. Consider the possibility of: pDif*VajraBoost*X'sBoost.
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#41 Mar 04 2010 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
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Ok. I came home, and went and got the def of some DC flamingos. Then I got to the math.
Unedited from wordpad:
*find mob def
1 373atk = low def; 372 = normal
2 386norm 387low
both of these were dc flamingos. avg = 379normal/380low. it's def is 380*0.8. it's def is 304 avg,
*find out how much the sa should have done
so sa should do: (vajra, no boost, 4fStr is actually a better guess than 2), 31+4+136 = 171. pDif is = ; atk/def=1.349; pdif= avgcrit=2.3092;. high = 2.619; low=2
**1.25 piercing**
vajra avg = 493.6 vajra boost: vaj+x's avg boost:
varja low = 427.5 vajra boost: vaj+x's avg boost:
vajra high = 559.8 vajra boost: vaj+x's avg boost:
New Masamune pDif: high=2.823, low=1.952, avg = 2.388
prevajra avg = 510.3 vajra boost: 1.113
prevarja low = 417.2 vajra boost: 1.163
prevajra high = 603.4 vajra boost: 1.090
vajra actual pDif: high=3.078(diff=0.255), low=2.269(d=0.317), avg=2.657(d=0.269)
va+x's actual pDif:
*find out how much spread there'd be in the event of +pDif
actual supposed pDif spread = 0.871; ratio= 1.446
vajra pDif spread = 0.809; ratio=1.357
significant difference exists---
*find out how much in the event of a straight multiplier
prevajra avg = 510.3 vajra boost: 1.113
prevarja low = 417.2 vajra boost: 1.163
prevajra high = 603.4 vajra boost: 1.090
*find out how much it'd be if +%dex
if +15%, 191BD
vajra hyp high=673
low=466
avg=570*; off by 2

I started off by using the old pDif formulas we've been using for years. The hypothetical numbers I was getting looked possible, but strange. I decided to go with the updated pDif information, and what I was getting seemed to be fitting better.

The only problem is that all three possible models (+pDif, straight multiplier, +dex/agi%) are, well, all possible. Looking at the numbers, the most farfetched-looking and least likely seems to be straight multiplier. But the +pDif and +dex% models seem to be fitting better with the last vajra sample (though it is only 10 in size).

The problem with fitting the samples with the models.. well first is the spread. According to the new pDif math, a perfect sample in this case would have a spread of 0.871 between the lowest and highest points. Meanwhile, the vajra sample has a spread of only 0.809. So under that, both +pDif and +dex% are possible. Meanwhile, the only way to disprove a straight multiplier theory would be with a statistically high sample, I think.

The +dex% theory can easily be proven right wrong if we give a hypothetical number (like +15%) and show that it doesn't match perfect samples. But for that, we'd need 2 samples of significantly different dex, both with spreads of close to 0.871 pDif (sufficient size). But for now, the +15% model doesn't conflict the data. It could also be a different % though. I guess it wouldn't likely be based on induction, assuming we're right about the af+1. But who knows.

So I can't conclude anything with the data atm. If anyone else wants to dig further, you might find something. But really, there are a lot of us (like myself) that could do sufficient samples to determine the exact nature of X's, but we've just been too lazy to. Can't blame Breaze either.

And Breaze I didn't know you knew Tsola :O. That guys a pretty cool bro. Inspired me to lowman Zirnitra^^
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#42 Mar 05 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Thanks for your effort sha! Appreciate it. But lets say you find out how X's and Vajra work. Will that really change anything in how people will gear?
For solo SA I cant see myself give up stuff like: Pixie Earring, Thunder Ring, Maat's Cap, Love Torque, Skadi's Cuirie, Enkidu's Mittens, Charger Mantle, Cuchulain's Belt, Hecatomb Subligar, Enkidu's Leggings, Rajas Ring.

Well maybe when new gear comes out it will give us more options. But for now I don't see good alternatives.

And yes I do a lot of events with tsola. He is my favourite taru to MPK^^
#43 Mar 05 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah I guess so. Well trust me, w/ this math stuff, the more you know the better. When the dex:crit information was finally solved, some people were like "ok lol all that work and it doesn't change anything," but since that time I've seen the information quoted a lot and it has definitely had an effect on what people think of various gear choices.

For X's, knowing how it works is pretty important I'd say. Evisceration crit boost never got figured out, and as it stands I'd still consider EV vs DE a not-so-concluded subject, mainly because of that. Accordingly X's vs alternatives is still an issue, especially because the evisceration thing hasn't been solved. But if it's such an issue, that means that X's and some alternatives are close. And if they're close, then knowing exactly how X's works can definitely cause the scale to tip one way or another.

In the case of Vajra, maybe not so much. Or maybe so. At least for Pixie, it could give you reason to change that one piece (though I can imagine you not wanting to), because Merman's is already surprisingly close to Pixie in my math. Depending on if Vajra increases pDif or if it increases dex%, it could tip either one of these into being the better piece. Same with heca subligar for a haste-relevant SA build. Unfortunately it's not as attractive as it so-deliciously looks, because the slow on it is utterly massive. If Vajra adds to pDif, heca subligar in comparison to an attak-speed-friendly alternative (like enkidu's) will become weaker. If it increases dex value, then heca subligar will become stronger in comparison.

Nothing too major but definitely nice stuff to know.
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#44 Mar 05 2010 at 5:41 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for reminding me. Evis testing just keeps getting put on the back burner. It gets harder and harder to find time for mundane tests when there are things to do that advance personal goals :S So much FFXI. So little time.

I need to revisit that at some point >_<
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#45 Mar 31 2010 at 11:53 PM Rating: Good
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http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/Breaze/Vajratrial1.jpg
Done with trail 1. It is basically what I asked for in my OP and SE gave it to me. So I can't really complain about it. Be careful what you wish for Breaze!

Just started with trail 2. I have to land the kill shot on undead with mandy stab. Who came up with that?!? It is really annoying. Oh right no complaining....


I am not yet sure if I am getting any of the new daggers. Recently I have been playing with a lot of different off-hand weapons: M.kris, Kraken club, Justice sword, Sirocco, X's.

Justice sword was only a tiny bit faster then Sirocco kukri. I am pretty sure the double attack effect on Justice sword is hurting thf's triple attack trait.

And the new double attack dagger from the Trail of Magians quest line is basically just that. A justice sword in dagger form without need for virtue stones. Both gain tp at nearly the same rate. I doubt this new sirocco+1 or Justice dagger (whatever you want to call it) can beat X's or blau in the off-hand.

I was kind of shocked with how well Kraken Club performed. Even without sushi I was gaining tp like crazy. Talking about "Even match" monsters here. I did not parse this but if anything can beat X or blau in the off-hand it will be Kraken Club. It's WS speed could make up for it's crappy DoT.

And the evasion type dagger (AGI+4, evasion +12) looks nice. But what am I going to kill with it that I can't kill already?





Edited, Apr 1st 2010 7:56am by Breaze
#46 Apr 01 2010 at 12:51 AM Rating: Good
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I had Kclub for a couple weeks recently. I didn't use it often, but I felt that it was really effective in Nyzul. Never missed. I don't think it's perfect for the whole run, but if sa and ta timers are at 0 when going up a floor, find that specified enemy, TP up, sa mercy, tp up, ta mercy. Dead, find the next specified enemy, one ja is already up. Seemed really good for pushing out dmg in that situation.

Justice Multi-Attack is different than Joytoy. Well, all justice weapons are different. Your triple and double attack trait/gear will stack on top of if. I assumed Majian double-attack is like Joytoy/Ridill/Kclub/etc, in that the weapons multi-procs take precedence b4 equip/trait, and you can't proc a multi attack on top of the weapon's proc.

I'm not sure any genuine testing has been done. I think it was just assumed that the weapon's multi-proc takes precedence. But it could be the other way around. If so, that'd explain Joytoy being thought of as 45% proc rate, assuming the samples were done with someone playing war.

Two things that I don't know the answers to:
(1)Is Majian double-attack jailer style, or normal style? (my guess is normal)
(2)Is 300% mythic aftermath jailer or normal style?
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#47 Apr 01 2010 at 6:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Justice Multi-Attack is different than Joytoy. Well, all justice weapons are different. Your triple and double attack trait/gear will stack on top of if. I assumed Majian double-attack is like Joytoy/Ridill/Kclub/etc, in that the weapons multi-procs take precedence b4 equip/trait, and you can't proc a multi attack on top of the weapon's proc.

If what you are saying is true then that would make Athame (double-attack dagger) even less interesting.

IMO the good thing about these new daggers is that they give the players options. If you don't want to spend 1-2mil on a blau fine. Here is your Dakini with 4DEX, 8acc and 34DMG. If you don't want to quest or if you are unlucky with fane augments or X's no problem. Here we have something that is 100% if you work for it.


About your second question: I have no idea.
#48 Apr 01 2010 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Justice Multi-Attack is different than Joytoy. Well, all justice weapons are different. Your triple and double attack trait/gear will stack on top of if. I assumed Majian double-attack is like Joytoy/Ridill/Kclub/etc, in that the weapons multi-procs take precedence b4 equip/trait, and you can't proc a multi attack on top of the weapon's proc.


I thought this was how all multi proc items worked. M kris has the same issue. The only reason we never discuss joytoy is because thief can't equip it, and Ridill/k clubs are much rarer in comparison. Since we only have a D ranking in sword and an E ranking in club it's not worth using them in too many situations so it's not really brought up, but the weapons have always interfered with our natural multi proc trait.

Edited, Apr 1st 2010 9:43am by Melphina
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#49 Apr 01 2010 at 8:32 AM Rating: Good
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You'd be surprised how often I use ridill actually, it's pretty awesome on mobs DC/EM or lower, and it seems like I'm always fighting stuff of that level (and I never farm). I'd go so far as to say it's possibly more useful for Thief than any other job. Not so much the TP gain really. It's faster, but you also notice significantly more DoT.

Jailer weapon double-attack is indeed difference. But I'm really kinda wondering if instead, traits take precedence over weapon multi proc. Mehz. Well, I already did my calculations on Athame using normal style multi-proc, and it still came out slightly faster than Sirocco and with more BD/Delay DPS than almost all other daggers. If it has jailer style double attack, I'd say it'd be pretty damn good. It'd have phenomenal TP gain and BD/Delay DPS roughly equal to 39+2 Mandau. But I doubt that'll be the case, since jailer weapons are the exception and not the rule.
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#50 Apr 01 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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It would be wicked awesome if they were like jailer weapons. I still have fond memories of using Drg with homam corazza and Love Halberd procing both DA and TA in 1 round. 4hit lance rounds just make me feel all warm and fuzzy. Translating that to a dagger with thfs natural high triple rate.....we can have 7hit rounds of melee...or.....should you actually get TWO of these then you could get EIGHT hit melee rounds. Friggin aweseome. But as Shamaya pointed out, jailers are the exception not the rule. However, the point about Joy testing being done on War accounting for 45% rate over an even 50% sound plausible. I might take my Pld/Dnc and parse some campaign and make sure im not using brutal and parse joy-toy rate.

Honestly, if you can equip two, i am strongly considering going for a second one (assuming you can get two of the same version and once DA rate has been verified). D31 isnt really to shabby for WS, and the DPS/TP gain would be just insane. Anyonoe know if theres any limitations on Augment?

I would neet to check some numbers, but my gut says if you could use a second one, it could very well be the best non-relic combo available. Not to mention you wont get gimped over 100% TP like blau.

...../sadface i just checked my inventory. Both my bradamante(lance) and athame are Aug/Rare/Ex. We cant use two, not even the gimpy 2xatk D18 verson. The elemental daggers arent rare however. But the D38 and DA versions are ; ; The earlier stages are NOT rare so i got my hopes up ><

Oh well. Now to get the 10 vnm items and ill have both of these sick new weapons!
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99Thf/99Drg/99Rng/95Pld/Secret Job 92
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Ryunohige-75: 1/7/2012
Mandau-75: 3/9/2012

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Some of mah gearz: http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Lakshmi/Aanalaty#item-sets
Join 'People Against The Heart Snatcher' and help put Thfs on the right P.A.T.H.S. today!
#51 Apr 01 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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Just was reading over at BG and someone posted about Mythic double-attack is jailer style. Fingers still crossed on the Magian OAT :X, will keep my eyes peeled.
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