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Merman's Earring Vs Delta EarringFollow

#1 Aug 22 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Which of these earrings would you recommend for Dancing Edge, will the dex+2 chr+2 out weight the atk+6 from mermans.

I'd assume Delta would win with SA Dancing Edge, but how about solo?
#2 Aug 22 2009 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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outweigh

I'd go for Merman's. 15,000 ampoules can be spent on better things.
#3 Aug 22 2009 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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What better things can it be spent on, only things I see are:
Iota Ring:
DEX +3 VIT +3 AGI +3 Accuracy +3

Which is beaten by seperate swops for SA, TA and TP, guess it would make a decent SATA dancing egde, but when do you ever do that?

and Kubira Bead Necklace
DEF: 5 STR +4 DEX +4 Damage Taken +5%

which is basically Spike necklace +1 and beaten by WS gorgets
#4 Aug 22 2009 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Bucc Belt for Racc as well.

But to Rahkis, there's a chance OP has every ichor item he might otherwise want, I know I do, in which case it can't be spent on better things.

I couldn't give the OP an answer to which is more powerful, but I'd prolly use Delta, just because that's 300k saved on a mermans. Although if you have one already (from a mdef set or such) then I don't know what to suggest.
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#5 Aug 22 2009 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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How does Iota ring be only good at when stacking everything?
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#6 Aug 22 2009 at 7:46 PM Rating: Good
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The einherjar ichor items are hard to detail really. Both of them tbh.

Delta Earring versus Merman's earring

2 dex 2 chr -- translates into 1 accuracy plus 2 base damage on the first hit of a sneak attack and 1.4 WSC . In comparison 6 attack is going to be about a 2% increase in average pDIF.

Given the choice, I'd still take the mermans. The accuracy is only half a % and the attack is nice. Plus the delta earring lowers enmity by 3, and while it's not a big deal I like my role of hate control and losing 3 enmity irks me. Personally I use brutal and hollow earring when not weaponskilling with assassin's charge, and pixie/hollow when I add assassin's charge. But in lieu of pixie, I'd go mermans anyway.

Thunder ring versus Iota Ring

5 dex versus DEX +3 VIT +3 AGI +3 Accuracy +3

That ring is a pain in the *** to analyze when compared to a thunder ring. Sure it LOOKS lopsided but then you consider that the 2 dex differential is also 1 accuracy and after canceling out stats you're left with this

the wsc and sneak attack bonuses of 2 dex versus 3 agility and 2 accuracy (the vitality is worthless for a weaponskill).

That's not NEARLY as clear cut as you'd think. 2 dex is 0.6 wsc meaning a chance at 1 base damage per hit on any weaponskill stacked or unstacked, which if that happens will probably outweigh the 1% accuracy difference. In a sneak attack weaponskill you lose the 2 dexterity crit mod and wsc for 1% accuracy and that's a BAD tradeoff so here it loses. In a trick attack weaponskill while the 3 agility affects the first hit critical the rest is the same as a solo meaning again the wsc versus not. If the iota ring DOES lose 1 WSC (which would also affect the first hit critical ANYWAY) you're gonna get very close to identical results. In a solo weaponskill it's hard to say because of the same reasons of 1% acc versus 1 base damage every hit considerations.

The Iota ring is only a clear victory over the thunder ring if you know your stats and whether or not you're going to break tiers. But stats change every time you get a gear upgrade, so if it breaks a tier NOW it may not break one next time when you get XYZ new piece of weaponskill gear, and it's rare/ex. In addition to all this, It's inventory +1. The only place it's a true victor is a stacked SATA ws, but those are rare.

Instead of giving myself a headache I just use a thunder ring instead of iota. I'll be carrying that with me anyway, and considering all the other stuff I'd have to think about with the Iota I just save myself the hassle.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2009 6:56pm by Melphina
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#7 Aug 22 2009 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I say go mermans, so that I can craft them and sell more of them. Smiley: lol Currently they're 500-600k right no- HOLY **** BRB CRAFTING MERMANS!
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#8 Aug 23 2009 at 1:40 PM Rating: Default
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buddyslack wrote:
What better things can it be spent on, only things I see are:
Iota Ring:
DEX +3 VIT +3 AGI +3 Accuracy +3

Which is beaten by seperate swops for SA, TA and TP, guess it would make a decent SATA dancing egde, but when do you ever do that?

and Kubira Bead Necklace
DEF: 5 STR +4 DEX +4 Damage Taken +5%

which is basically Spike necklace +1 and beaten by WS gorgets


WS gorgets only affect the first hit of a WS. They actually kinda suck on multi-hits.


EDIT: Just thought of this but for Mercy Stroke should you wear a Flame Ring or a Thunder Ring?

Edited, Aug 23rd 2009 6:43pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#9 Aug 23 2009 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I thought it was believed that WS gorgets give acc to all hits of a multi hit WS
#10 Aug 23 2009 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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First off

Quote:
I thought it was believed that WS gorgets give acc to all hits of a multi hit WS


They do. The wsc gorgets only add DAMAGE to the first hit of the weaponskill because they raise the fTP bonus of the skill by 0.1 and that only applies to the first hit. However the accuracy bonus is a constant 10 accuracy (5 % hitrate) across every hit of a weaponskill, single or multi hit. It's a peacock charm +1 and in lieu of torques is a strong item to use.

Quote:

EDIT: Just thought of this but for Mercy Stroke should you wear a Flame Ring or a Thunder Ring?


Now come on Lobi, you know better than that. In mercy stroke one strength is worth 1.5 dex. Considering the wsc and fTP characteristics of mercy stroke

(5 x 0.6) x 3.0) == 9

Dex doesn't get added until after the initial calculation since it isn't a secondary mod, so you'll get

(0 x 0.6) x 3.0) + 5
5

So in mercy stroke using 5 strength will benefit you as if you had added 9 dexterity, and since it's a WSC bonus it also applies to double/triple or offhand hits as well (just without the fTP bonus since they're non-first hit strikes). It adds 3 WSC to the other hit(s) whereas the dex would add nothing at all.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2009 7:08pm by Melphina
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#11 Aug 23 2009 at 9:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I was also lead to believe somewhere that the FTP bonus only applies to the first hit but the secondary modifiers apply to all hits. Is this true? Would that increase the worth of Delta (Or Pixie)?
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#12 Aug 24 2009 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I was also lead to believe somewhere that the FTP bonus only applies to the first hit but the secondary modifiers apply to all hits. Is this true? Would that increase the worth of Delta (Or Pixie)?


First to give a straight answer to your question before elaborating, this is true and yes it raises the value of delta or pixie earring on every hit, just like attack also does on every hit.

The first hit of a weaponskill gets additional bonuses that all succeeding hits do not, and is a big reason that 1 hit weaponskills differ in mechanics from multi hit. The first hit of a weaponskill gets a bonus of 60 accuracy which is a big reason those "one hit wonders" tend to miss less. Slugwinder is the exception because it has a wicked accuracy penalty (I've played ranger at level ~~60-65, I'll vouch for this). At 100% tp it's hard to land once you get it, but tp is its accuracy mod so more tp == better chance. That aside

the formula for weaponskill damage on the first hit is

(( D + fSTR + wsc) x fTP) x pDIF

D is your weapon's base damage, fSTR is the strength/vit differential, wsc is the secondary mods (in dancing edge 300% dex 40% chr), and fTP is the bonus your weaponskill gets based on how much tp you have. Mercy stroke has a constant fTP of 3.0 no matter how much tp you have. Consequently, slugwinder has an fTP of 5 no matter what tp amount, which is where its quadruple damage kicks in. Shark bite has an fTP of 2.0 at 100% tp, and 3.0 at 300% which is why a 300% tp shark bite hits a lot harder than a 100% etc etc. pDIF is just the attack multiplier that comes after the base damage calculations and multiplies the final byproduct.

By the way, if you stack sneak or trick attack that bonus of dex comes AFTER fTP outside the bracket, so it looiks like this

((( D + fSTR + wsc) x fTP) + DEX) x pDIF

Because the critical hit mod comes AFTER the fTP bonus it's given much less weight than if it would be coming BEFORE the fTP bonus. Now the only difference between the damage portion of a FIRST hit and succeeding hits (beside the potential for sa/ta bonuses) is the fTP, namely they don't get that (they also don't get the bonus of 60 accuracy as they do on the first hit either of course).

( D + fSTR + wsc) x pDIF

Summary:

Weaponskill secondary modifiers affect EVERY hit of a multi hit weaponskill, meaning they always matter equally. However attack ALSO affects every hit of a weaponskill, so both sides of the coin appear each hit. It's a matter of balance really.

By the way, Dancing edge has very LARGE secondary mods in relation to other weaponskills (asuran fists for example is only 10% str and 10% vit, guillotine is 25% str and 25% mnd. We get a whopping 30% dex and 40% chr, and because dex is so important ANYWAY and because it helps with accuracy as well, dancing edge is somewhat easier to work with than other weaponskills. It still needs accuracy, but those heavy mods really add up over time. My dancing edge's WSC is approximately 50 base damage increase on every hit, and when you consider that this applies to 6 hits (/nin) which can spike to 7 or 8 with double/triple activation you can see how even a little dagger weaponskill can rival the power of the 2 handed weaponskills.

Edited, Aug 24th 2009 11:48am by Melphina
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#13 Aug 24 2009 at 11:17 AM Rating: Default
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These items all seem better to me than Delta:

Ritter Gorget
Morgana's Choker
Iota Ring
Omega Ring
Ampoules for synthesis materials

#14 Aug 24 2009 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Rahkis wrote:
These items all seem better to me than Delta:

Ritter Gorget
Morgana's Choker
Iota Ring
Omega Ring
Ampoules for synthesis materials

I'm not a tank, and I'll make do with my Evasion Torque. I have Morganna's and Omega already. Iota would only be stronger on SATA, which I rarely use, otherwise Thunder/Breeze > It. For TP it will either give 4 or 5 acc, and as my TP set is not at a dex state where that will gie a notcable crit boost, I'll keep Sniper's Ring.

That said, I did originally get Delta as a Brd earring (Free melody+1), no longer use it thf (Pixie) and continue to use it on brd (skill+ earring does nothing for march tier). So yeah
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#15 Aug 24 2009 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
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If you dont care about -3 emnity, then its really so close as to be a wash and not worth worrying about. If you have ampules burning a whole in your pocket (like me) and dont want to fill your inv with mats that sell slow as molasses and for not much gil, not much else to do.

I already have all the gear for my jobs and still have bajillions of ampules. I really dont care either way for the enmity (and at the time i was leveling bst. Chr and -enmity sounded good).

Most people really dont care enough about doing an avg of ~2 damage on a DE to warrent inv-1 (having both) or spending 300k on an earring when theres a nearly identical in performance for free from ampules and will shift based on your Pdif anyway. (if your atk is very high then mermans drops off)

Its really to close for me to care and i go for +1 heca and other epeen gear :P

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#16 Aug 24 2009 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Adding this in here as it fits the Chr+ debate

Just got a spinel ring with Chr+2, so the question is Thunder Ring or this Dex+4 Chr+2 for Dancing Edge
#17 Aug 26 2009 at 1:05 AM Rating: Decent
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(wrong thread ignore)

Edited, Aug 26th 2009 6:07am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#18 Aug 26 2009 at 3:26 AM Rating: Decent
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buddyslack wrote:
Adding this in here as it fits the Chr+ debate

Just got a spinel ring with Chr+2, so the question is Thunder Ring or this Dex+4 Chr+2 for Dancing Edge
Whether it's better or not I'd still keep thunder cus spinel ring has such a gimp looking icon QQ

Proper answer: it's 1DEX vs 1CHR. Alone, 1CHR is stronger (40% mod vs 30%), but 1DEX gives 0.25% Acc aswell.
Pretty sure it'll come out pretty even, so the best answer i can give is whether you value a cooler looking icon (Thunder) or 400-500k gil (spinel).
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#19 Aug 26 2009 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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But thunder is also better for SA and non DE WS. For the best performance you would need to keep it anyway. You can sell for some gil to make other improvements, but you would still just have -1 dex on every non DE function (SA, SB, Man Stab, Evis etc). Id keep the thunder because you would need to keep it anyway and its going to be very close with 10% wsc vs .25 acc. to close for me to warrent inv-1.
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