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#27 Mar 25 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
I'd like a 1.75 cRatio boost on DE, since sam already has that and more.


Put it on TA and let it be subbed. But it only works with 1H weapons. This makes THF a stronger hate controller in endgame and /THF would make 1H weapons relevant again.


Edited, Mar 25th 2009 7:40pm by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#28 Mar 25 2009 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, if we got the title of the master of hate controller, make us really good at it..

Collaborator is nice, but the range of it is screaming "OMG stop running mages, i r coming to save yooooooooooooou...or not."

Some kind of boost on racc would be nice too, like the rng acc bonus trait, giving us another option on hnms, say..jailer of faith.
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#29 Mar 25 2009 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
if i could fully express my hatred for topics like this ("what should SE 'fix'?" and the related "what do you think the next update will be like guys?"), that expression would not only crash alla, but cause connectivity issues for most of if not all the world. the hatred would be so big that you would be driven insane just by reading it.


If I could fully express my hatred for DRG DRK and SAM, well...let's just say it would be bigger.
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#30 Mar 25 2009 at 9:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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1. Native dual wield up to II.

2. A+ in dagger.

3. Stun effect on Mug and/or make it give dmg.

4. Lower the friggin' Mug recast timer.

5. Improve Perfect Dodge by not only dodging ranged attacks, but by also making Accomplice/Collaborator recast timers 6 seconds while under effect.

Edited: Not sure about #5 now, with Accomplice/Collaborator being lv. 65 haha...

Edited, Mar 26th 2009 2:11am by Jevilwolf
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...draining with sambas is kind of like you smack the thing and as you smack blood flies out... normally the blood would just you know fall and be red an what-not, but, with the samba your all whacked out and decide to drink the blood as it flys out. thus not adding MORE damage just taking more advantage of your damage. at least thats my take on it.
#31 Mar 25 2009 at 9:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I could fully express my hatred for DRG DRK and SAM, well...let's just say it would be bigger.


Why hate what other jobs have? You can cry about what your job doesn't have, but it makes no sense to whine about other jobs being strong. Face it, you aren't taking an alliance of THF's to events. You NEED what abilities and talents other jobs have. Why does THF have to be superior in damage on merit party mobs where all theorycrafting is done? I think its currently adequate, but its just harder to make THF shine compared to other jobs. Its a very busy job requiring lots of gear sets and lots of focused attention. Don't like that? Don't play THF. The biggest problem with THF has always been the perception that, in general, most THFs don't know how to play their jobs. Those guys make all THFs look bad. I personally like my THF a lot as it is.
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#32 Mar 25 2009 at 10:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheBarrister wrote:
milich wrote:
if i could fully express my hatred for topics like this ("what should SE 'fix'?" and the related "what do you think the next update will be like guys?"), that expression would not only crash alla, but cause connectivity issues for most of if not all the world. the hatred would be so big that you would be driven insane just by reading it.


If I could fully express my hatred for DRG DRK and SAM, well...let's just say it would be bigger.


/facepalm. if you want every job to be the same, why don't you just play an FPS like counter-strike or halo or something?
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#33 Mar 25 2009 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
1. Native dual wield up to II.

2. A+ in dagger.

3. Stun effect on Mug and/or make it give dmg.

4. Lower the friggin' Mug recast timer.

5. Improve Perfect Dodge by not only dodging ranged attacks, but by also making Accomplice/Collaborator recast timers 6 seconds while under effect.


What he said!

Quote:
If I could fully express my hatred for DRG DRK and SAM, well...let's just say it would be bigger.


I used to feel the same until I lvled those jobs.... now I hate myself /emo /stab-own-face!!!!
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#34 Mar 26 2009 at 3:20 AM Rating: Good
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It's not so much the topic that's annoying, it's that the person who starts them tends to think of themselves as the "voice of the people." I don't think there's anything more annoying than some peon that has little idea of how things work in the game making topics about how a job needs fixing and how everyone on that job wishes for the same things they do.
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#35 Mar 26 2009 at 3:35 AM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
/facepalm. if you want every job to be the same, why don't you just play an FPS like counter-strike or halo or something?


The amusing thing is that nowadays there are **** fine FPS with job systems in them that rely on the same kinds of teamwork and diversity that FFXI revolves around. Killzone 2 even allows you a "subjob" or sorts, to combine the abilities of two different classes.

That wasn't entirely relevant, I suppose, but it struck me as noteworthy.
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#36 Mar 26 2009 at 6:57 AM Rating: Decent
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JaxReborn wrote:
Quote:
If I could fully express my hatred for DRG DRK and SAM, well...let's just say it would be bigger.


Why hate what other jobs have?


I honestly don't (well I personally don't like the history of DRKs and DRGs on Alla complaining that they somehow needed a change).

It was a response to some douchebag coming on the Thief forum and telling us Thieves to STFU b/c we don't need anything.

Troll more, k, Milch?
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#37 Mar 26 2009 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's not so much the topic that's annoying, it's that the person who starts them tends to think of themselves as the "voice of the people." I don't think there's anything more annoying than some peon that has little idea of how things work in the game making topics about how a job needs fixing and how everyone on that job wishes for the same things they do.


Wow, did you even watch the Youtube video, i wanted to unload some ideas out of me head. Also, whats a WAR doing trolling in a THF forum? Oh and SE just announced a HUGE update for WHM, so doing one for THF in the forseeable future is possible.

Back on Topic,

Quote:
1. Native dual wield up to II.

2. A+ in dagger.

3. Stun effect on Mug and/or make it give dmg.

4. Lower the friggin' Mug recast timer.

5. Improve Perfect Dodge by not only dodging ranged attacks, but by also making Accomplice/Collaborator recast timers 6 seconds while under effect.


1. A+ in dagger: I Agree

2. Natural Dual Wield: Why make more reasons for people to NOT use NIN/ anymore..

3. Stun on Mug or damage: Damage is good, but knowing SE it would suck. "Bash" effect would be better.

4. Mug lower recast: Everyone wants this.

5. Perfect Dodge: Any fix for this will probably be a good one.

Edited, Mar 26th 2009 9:47am by EvilTedy
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#38 Mar 26 2009 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheBarrister wrote:
JaxReborn wrote:
Quote:
If I could fully express my hatred for DRG DRK and SAM, well...let's just say it would be bigger.


Why hate what other jobs have?


I honestly don't (well I personally don't like the history of DRKs and DRGs on Alla complaining that they somehow needed a change).

It was a response to some douchebag coming on the Thief forum and telling us Thieves to STFU b/c we don't need anything.

Troll more, k, Milch?


i told MNKs and SAMs the same thing before the 2h update and afterward. SE themselves (and the whiners who make threads like this) don't understand game mechanics and balance well enough to implement such changes anyway, generally, so i'd prefer they left **** alone or only made small, useful tweaks. sorry, but "please POWER UP my already extraordinarily well balanced and widely useful job because SOME SAM I MET PARSED 5% HIGHER THAN ME!" doesn't fall under that category.

plus i just think these (and speculation topics) are stupid. who cares? i know some people really do care about "my idea for THF JA" threads, but i can't see why;;;. this is much more opinion based than argument based... but then again, so is your silly opinion about 2h jobs (i assume you're one of those people who thinks 1h/MNK jobs can't possibly keep up with 2h jobs "because the game is broken" or that it's impossible to be a bad SAM or whatever these people think).
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#39 Mar 26 2009 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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I would love A+ dagger or any other acc/att or just acc or just att boost to thf in any way. (new JT, JA, weapons skill, some uber crazy thf only equip with no equivalent for other jobs lol, doesnt matter to me)

However, giving thf DW or a few other the other crazy things in this thread seem like way too much of a stretch to me. Changing PD to avoid RA would get rid of the only way to gain tp on mobs during PD, not sure i would love that. DW is the nin trait that makes them nin, if other jobs got it wow, just would be a huge slap in the face lol.

Guess all I really want from SE is for a Heca Sub to show up in my d box as a special gift for me only. That would rock.
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#40 Mar 26 2009 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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LordTrey wrote:
DW is the nin trait that makes them nin, if other jobs got it wow, just would be a huge slap in the face lol.

Technically MNKs were known for Martial Arts, and PUP got that. However, if you want the same exchange, I don't think I'd want native DW for C+ Dagger ¬¬
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#41 Mar 26 2009 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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EvilTedy wrote:
Wow, did you even watch the Youtube video,
Nope. Believe it or not, just because you made a thread doesn't mean you're the only one being posted to/about. If you actually read your own thread, you'd have noticed several posts about how these sort (Speculation/Wish) of threads are annoying. I simply added my view on that subject.
EvilTedy wrote:
Also, whats a WAR doing trolling in a THF forum?
Are you some sort of authority figure saying where people can and cannot post? I post where I want to post, it's what I do. It's part of my charm, as it were, and if I weren't trying to get either Darkdoom or Nilatai to win this contest instead of myself, I might be a little less abrasive.

(Though, I doubt that.)
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#42 Mar 26 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Personally, I don't have a problem with how THF performs as it is. If you gear it properly, ie.

  • To TP in Haste and Accuracy
  • To SA in a DEX gear
  • To WS in DEX/Acc dependant on situation
  • To TA in an AGI gear(dependant on WS or not)

  • You will have no problems being a great DD for your party. Especially on the omfGgG bird camp.

    Perfect Dodge, whilst it is an "Invincible -1", still isn't quite as crap as Azure Lore or Mijin Gakure. I have found that it has its uses in emergencies, especially those where you need to control an unruly link that wont be utsusemi tanked.

    Mug is just a joke. I don't particularly see it as a deficit to the job. It's there for the same reason that we have chocobos instead of mounts: It's FF. If you want to feel special then go and mug a sky god. You will get a good 4k gil at least. When you consider the scale of gil in FFXI, the last thing you need is everyone switching to THF or /THF as a lolfarmingjob. This stigma is already worse than it should get already. I see countless people trying to farm with /THF sub, TH1, when another sub could be increasing their kill rate tenfold and potentially increasing their drops more than TH1 could.

    Our merits are great. If you have to make a decision between what to choose, then it's proof that your job has a good choice of merits. Seriously, anyone that has NIN levelled will know exactly how crap they can be. THF has one of the best merit ability lines out there. Embrace them at your own style (although I will strongly suggest TrippleAttack 5/5 followed by SA recast, as TrickAttack is useless solo).

    If anything could be adjusted to THF, I would expand on the "THF is the master of enmity" theme. A reverse Accomp/Collab would fit comfortably, but possibly a little to much. I think the dynamics of endgame would be destroyed too much if it allowed thieves to redirect hate to anybody. It would deem most of the complex mechanics we have up to date as null and void. I hardly expect SE to incorporate such a change in order to satisfy one jobs finesse. 5%, or maybe 10% Enmity on a 5 minute timer? Maybe. Just maybe.

    I think people should be happy with the way THF has turned out. It has become one of the most balanced jobs in FFXI. It serves a definate purpose against 19 others in endgame, and provides an inpenetrable service for parties 30-60, for which beyond we can outdo our subbers by gearing appropriately. In conclsusion I would have to say, keep THF as it is, and, if you do change anything, don't make it ruin our style.

    Edited, Mar 26th 2009 9:50pm by mikeyc
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    #43 Mar 26 2009 at 6:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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    mikeyc, Star Breaker wrote:
    If anything could be adjusted to THF, I would expand on the "THF is the master of enmity" theme. A reverse Accomp/Collab would fit comfortably, but possibly a little to much. I think the dynamics of endgame would be destroyed too much if it allowed thieves to redirect hate to anybody. It would deem most of the complex mechanics we have up to date as null and void. I hardly expect SE to incorporate such a change in order to satisfy one jobs finesse. 5%, or maybe 10% Enmity on a 5 minute timer? Maybe. Just maybe.

    I think people should be happy with the way THF has turned out. It has become one of the most balanced jobs in FFXI. It serves a definate purpose against 19 others in endgame, and provides an inpenetrable service for parties 30-60, for which beyond we can outdo our subbers by gearing appropriately. In conclsusion I would have to say, keep THF as it is, and, if you do change anything, don't make it ruin our style.

    Edited, Mar 26th 2009 9:50pm by mikeyc


    obviously i fully agree with the last paragraph (since i already expressed such sentiments), but actually (despite my hatred for these kinds of threads) i agree with the second to last paragraph too. accomplice/collaborator was a great idea on SE's part, one of the best they've had regarding job buffs, ever. it's beautiful: very helpful, very situational, strong enough to make the job desired in certain situations, but not so strong that it excludes other party setups or makes the game too easy (though the game is already kind of easy). i agree too that going further on that enmity road could threaten to be too powerful, but i think it's a viable avenue for buffs.
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    #44 Mar 26 2009 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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    EvilTedy wrote:
    2. Natural Dual Wield: Why make more reasons for people to NOT use NIN/ anymore..
    Even if THF gets native dual wield II, /nin will still has its place in situations where it's beneficial to have Utsusemi as well as sneak/invisible (Nyzul for example) and solo.
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    Calmus wrote:
    ...draining with sambas is kind of like you smack the thing and as you smack blood flies out... normally the blood would just you know fall and be red an what-not, but, with the samba your all whacked out and decide to drink the blood as it flys out. thus not adding MORE damage just taking more advantage of your damage. at least thats my take on it.
    #45 Mar 26 2009 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
    A+ dagger would be pretty awesome to have.

    but native dual wield is kinda broken, thats half of the super sweet goodness of /NIN. think about it, if THF had native dual wield, i'd just go /WAR, which would lower my survivability, and im not to good on the number crunching, but i think id be dishing out some nice damage. BUT then other classes will complain that THF is to ******** and want their jobs mega-powered also.
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    #46 Mar 26 2009 at 11:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Quote:
    A+ dagger would be pretty awesome to have.


    This I will agree with, i would take this. However

    Quote:

    but native dual wield is kinda broken, thats half of the super sweet goodness of /NIN. think about it, if THF had native dual wield, i'd just go /WAR, which would lower my survivability, and im not to good on the number crunching, but i think id be dishing out some nice damage. BUT then other classes will complain that THF is to ******** and want their jobs mega-powered also.


    Not if you were any good you wouldn't. I had issues with survivability when I first dinged 75 as /war, but back then it was managable with my inferior gear. today it is not. I've tried /war recently "for old times sakes" and I received too much damage, I haven't tried since. I went meriting today so I can give you an idea of what my shadowless thief would be like if it had berserk AND dual wield.

    Party setup was as follows: This was a linkshell party, bard bard rdm standard The other melees were the elitest you will see. The red line is a full utsukane 5/5 black belt destroyers awesome off the charts monk (Milich will smile at this), and the blue line is a HNM level dragoon/samurai with full gear, the blue dot indicates the dragoons wyvern. The party was sick, 24k exp/hr and as you will see, my damage was so close to the two I did pull hate.

    Awesome party was awesome!!

    Analyzing the data you will see my accuracy was only 83%, the monks accuracy was 86% and the dragoons accuracy was 87%. 83% is GOOD accuracy for my thief with coeurl subs. Feint was useless because the birds didn't live longer than 15-20 seconds so by the time I added feint the thing was dead. On a related side note THIS is the power of homam and is also a big reason I will be speccing my Merke Homam style ^^. Moving along..... by looking at the damage you can deduce several things

    1:) Utsukane BB destroyers monk really is just THAT sick.
    2:) Because this is a linkshell party with the best end game players around, it's an accurate representation of the relative potential of each jobs dd output capabilities.
    3:) Most parties will not have end game players, 95% of pickups have sucky players and I'd be tanking it all. and most importantly

    4:) My thief put out almost as much DD as the dragoon. The drg never held tp beyond 110%, knew how to use meditate etc etc, he was good! A difference of 3-4% of party damage is more than acceptable to me when you consider what the two OTHER melees and buffs were. I had a LOT of fun in this party, it was REALLY fast paced and off the wall. That said, I don't claim to be the best dd in the game, I am not.But I can keep up with the biggest heavy hitters well enough I NEED shadows. Most parties are not this good, in which case it will be ME taking the highest hate, and had I been able to use Berserk!!! in that party with dual wield and no shadows I would be dead, leading to me subbing /ninja ANYWAY, just like the monk (whaddya know).

    Btw, the monk never invites thieves to merit, but because we're in the same linkshell he made an exception for me. After that party he will continue to make exceptions for me in the future, so this right there should tell you what a good thief is capable of doing. At least for ME going shadowless... is not an option

    Edited, Mar 27th 2009 3:42am by Melphina
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    #47 Mar 26 2009 at 11:41 PM Rating: Decent
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    Merits is not the problem, ability to be anything other than a mosquito on HNM is the problem.

    When SE spilled the beans and told people a THF only has to poke the mob and then drop from the alliance they screwed us.

    EvilTedy wrote:


    Give us a Reverse Accomplice/Collaborator, i made a thread about this a while back. But basically it would let us place our current hate on another player. 25% on a 1m timer or 50% on a 5m timer, both would be tied to Accomplice and Collaborator so that you cant spam them together.



    I came up with this idea a long time ago and got flamed for it. Of course if they ever actually do it everyone will immediately forget that and talk about how great SE is.

    Edited, Mar 27th 2009 4:46am by Lobivopis
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    I thought of it first:

    http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
    #48 Mar 27 2009 at 12:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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    Quote:
    Merits is not the problem, ability to be anything other than a mosquito on HNM is the problem.


    Note: by HNM below I mean not sky:
    ------------

    Merit style mobs makes up a much larger percentile of the game than actual hnms, as I've said about dynamis limbus farming salvage einherjar assault etc etc, in which case thief is fine as a DD. On HNM there is just no way for thief to hold their own with the big hitters, the melee formula doesn't allow it.

    Formulacraft wrote
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    Base Damage x pDIF == Actual Damage.


    Daggers are low damage, low delay. This is fine in some events, but not HNM. It can't be helped, raising daggetr to A+ will grant us 7 attack and 6-7 accuracy, that won't change anything (I'd still like this change though ^^). Altering our capabilities in criticals to be potent on hnm that we are equal damage will break the game everywhere else. HNM is one thing thief just is not a high DD on, barring of course Mandau. I've done HNM, I've been able to put out respectable weaponskills, but wyrms, dragons, khim and cerb etc, they just aren't friendly to thief. I was thrown a bone with accomplice/collaborator and I used it, the people I grouped with appreciated my help, the HNM died, stuff dropped and we got rewarded, that's what I went there for and they were glad to have me. How is that broken?

    The POINT that was being made by others, and even myself, is that not all jobs are equal. I have accepted my role at events, I am good at it, I still affect the outcome. It may not seem glamorous, but if a sac needs to be made and it helps make or break the event I will have the respect of my peers, exp is easy to rebuffer (I'm always capped) and reraise exists. The alternative in that scenario is to link too much stuff and get overwhelemed and wipe, that screws us ALL over. Accomplice/collaborator are GOOD abilities, pair me with a few blms and I can help increase the kill speed by allowing them to hold back less, that alone equates to more damage, just indirectly. and in some cases a LOT of added damage.

    FFXI is about teamwork, thief is very well balanced, we can control hate like no other, we can do GOOD dd on non hnm, and we do still have our place at HNM's too. We ALONE hold the treasure hunter trait, and while you may not like being called upon for it at events, I DOUBT you would want to give it up (I like my droprates thank you very much!!). Flee is just fun, and I like my criticals, and my evasion is beyond compare when I need it. This all wraps me up into a very attractive package. I don't need to be the highest DD at hnm, I more than make up for it elsewhere. I'm NOT saying thief couldn't use a boost, but it doesn't have to nor should it be one that makes us "OSSUM DD AT HNM". I would LIKE a boost, but within reason.
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    #49 Mar 27 2009 at 1:02 AM Rating: Default
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    As said earlier in this thread adding 1.75 cRatio bonus to Trick Attack would go a long way toward gaining THF respect on HNMs. We still wouldn't outdamage SAM or DRK or whatever but WS numbers are what people pay attention to. Not to mention it would help us keep hate on the tank better.

    Edited, Mar 27th 2009 6:04am by Lobivopis
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    I thought of it first:

    http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
    #50 Mar 27 2009 at 5:09 AM Rating: Good
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    Quote:
    At least for ME going shadowless... is not an option


    That holds true to any job with respectable equipment though. I can never go war/sam on merits because I just hold hate against everyone..! (Same goes to thf/war, even with lesser equipment compare to what Melphina has, I can probably keep up to most jobs.)


    I still would like some kind of boost on high def mobs - whatever it is..kirin, genbu, any HNMs. It's silly to have 600+ atk and still hit for 5's and 10's, and the war next to me using AF boots are dealing 40+ damage a swing(**** my war can use haste gear on sky gods pair with pizza, wtf?)

    That's truly only small change I would like. Some kind of better weapon on HNMs besides enfeeble and hate-stealing.

    (please no dw trait, that's broken imo)

    Edited, Mar 27th 2009 8:11am by Haletxamehk
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    #51 Mar 27 2009 at 7:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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    Quote:
    As said earlier in this thread adding 1.75 cRatio bonus to Trick Attack would go a long way toward gaining THF respect on HNMs


    Accepted, this adjustment I will take as well. Combined with A + dagger skill, that would be a more balanced fix. Dual wield isn a bad idea, but these two combined would be more than respectable, and I'd like this.
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    There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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