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The "What THFs want from SE" ThreadFollow

#1 Mar 24 2009 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
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After watching a Youtube video about Brain Crack (NSFW only due to him mentioning the Blue Nudity in Watchmen). I decided i want to unload my ideas for everyone to hear about how SE can improve the THF job.

1st: New JAs and Job Tweeks

Let me get the easy ones out of the way, Fix Perfect Dodge!! Make it so everyone in the party gets the evasion bonus. Or Infinate SA on the first hit of every attack for 30s, so we can accumulate enough hate to actually tank during our evasion bonus.

Give us a Reverse Accomplice/Collaborator, i made a thread about this a while back. But basically it would let us place our current hate on another player. 25% on a 1m timer or 50% on a 5m timer, both would be tied to Accomplice and Collaborator so that you cant spam them together.

Mug, 15m recast? what were they thinking. Put it at a 5m recast and add a "bash" effect on it to have us stun.


An Evasion bonus JA that effects the entire party. WAR gets Warcry for atk, PLD gets Sentinel for DEF, MNK gets Mantra for HP, so why cant THF have one for Evasion?

2nd: Merits

Some general ones for everyone, not just THF, Raise HP merits to 20HP per merit. a possible 160HP for a melee in the long run has the same impact as 80MP for a mage.

Raise the max total Stat mod cap to 10, STR +5 and DEX +5, Can i Has it?

Raise the Max total on "Others" to 12. In general, everyone lvls the same things. Melee get Crits, Tanks get Enmity up, Mages get enmity down. Thier 2nd Chioce depends on the job, like RNG or DRK would get Enmity down and crits. People might actually pick Enemy critical hits down or Spell interruption down if we had more merits.

Now for THF merits.

Flee: Lower recast, usless, What about Raise the Duration 5s for each merit? Capped at 5, we would get 1m Flee.

Hide: No comment, nothing i can think of can make this useful.

SA and TA: Again, lower delay honestly too small make it worth while, people only merit these normally if they have NOTHING TO SPEND MERITS ON. How about a Damage increase for each merit? 1 merit would be the same as 1 DEX or 1 AGI on each JA.


3rd: Items

Only one thing came to mind for me and that was the WoG completion item. We already have 2 Rings (Ult/Rajas) And 3 Earrings (Suppa/Hollow/Brutal). So what item can they add that wont be better then current Expansion items? A Neck Piece? No, we have Love Torque(not everyone has it, but in the end they would have to make something STRONGER then Love Torque to get us to wear it, making it go the way Homam Body will after MW comes out).

That leaves our backpiece. Sure there's a decent amount of good Backpieces for THFs, but leave it to SE to think of a Unique one to give us at the end of WoG. Everyone used Snipers and Flame rings until CoP and ToA rings. Suppa was always there, but nothing else unique until Brutal and Hollow. So if SE was going to add anything at the end of WoG, a backpiece would be the best slot to use without having to make the item stronger then older unique quested items. a Backpiece with Acc/Atk and some random effect they tend to add would be ideal for me.

In Closing

This topic is just to put ideas out there, i Dont think SE will do most/all of these. But at least i got them out there for everyone to hear. If you have any Brain Crack you want to get rid of, post it here.

CHA!



Edited, Mar 24th 2009 11:45pm by EvilTedy
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#2 Mar 24 2009 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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I agree with alot of stuff in here, but this particularly sticks out as incorrect.
EvilTedy wrote:
SA and TA: Again, lower delay honestly too small make it worth while, people only merit these normally if they have NOTHING TO SPEND MERITS ON. How about a Damage increase for each merit? 1 merit would be the same as 1 DEX or 1 AGI on each JA.

Actually these merits add up to alot over time because if you merit your SA and TA down you can ws faster which in the end results to a tremendous amount of extra damage. No need to make the merits give dmg as time down allready = damage. Stack on as much modifier as you can (dex/agi) and rock on.

Honestly there is TWO GINORMOUS problems I have with Thief.

1. Accuracy, Thief accuracy just f*ing sucks. Honestly. Wearing like 60 acc I still cant hit Kirin without food. Its retarded. And though I dont particularly have much accuracy problems at merit camps like birds and mamool, I know I would definately appreciate a boost in this department.

2. (unfixable by SE) Thief is looked down upon as damage dealer, I cant count the amount of times when Ive been kicked when a party is in the making or bards leave because they dont want to party with a Thief. Yet they have like 3 full hachi sams with Onimarus and thats ok. Full knowing I could destroy these people in a parse, its really hard to bring this to light, frustrating and extremely depressing.

Note: I approve of that Reverse Accomplice/Collab.

Edited, Mar 25th 2009 1:44am by Michimeow
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75THF: Dagger:8/8 Triple:5/5 SA:3/5 TA:2/5 AC:4/5 Feint:5/5 AS:1/5
75NIN: Katana:8/8 SubtleB:1/5 NTE:5/5
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#3 Mar 24 2009 at 10:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to be the **** here. Leave the fix and tweaks to others jobs, seriously >.>

THF is the dual wielder job with the LESS accuracy problems. Feint! It caps your accuray for 30s every 2min, 25% of the time ! SA and TA are garanteed hits too ! THF's job is largelly underestimated because of all those gimps walking in full dragon gears (except for turban, of course) who totally destroy the job's name. Make a name for yourself and you'll be THF more in events if you want it.

Leave the fix to jobs who need it or doesn't got anything since years, namelly nin (their merits blow and low accuracy) whm (SCH broke the balance) bst (had to name them) and smn (they always need a fix XD).

I'm totally fine with THF since the introduction of both accomplice/collaborator/feint, those things gave THF a real niche in almost every events.
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#4 Mar 24 2009 at 10:29 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I'm going to be the **** here. Leave the fix and tweaks to others jobs, seriously >.>


Way to derail a thread on a Thief Forum talking about Thief Changes that Thieves would want for other Thieves.

Anyways the issue with SATA is still you can only pick one, that choice is Situational as well. Do you go SA lvl 5 for better DD in Exp situations, or TA lvl 5 for better hate transfer in HNM situations.

Edited, Mar 24th 2009 11:36pm by EvilTedy
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THF75 Homam 5/5, Heca 5/5, Relic 6/6, Denali 5/5
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#5 Mar 24 2009 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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fix perfect dodge so that it dodges ranged attacks as well. all i want. if SE was kind enough to add a stun or single attack to mug, i would actually make a macro for it.

as for hide merits, i would have done 5 of those in a heartbeat if the damage potential for lower SA/TA timers wasnt so good. AoE eva buff? why? only jobs that might get use from it would be nin and mnk. definately not worthy of a macro, and would only be good for a hate spike.

you want r/x back armor? lucky for you, SE has already delivered. there are 4 capes you can buy with ancient beastcoins. sure, all are highly situational, but what exactly were you expecting? there are already good back armors avaliable. want mage back pieces? ix'aern wants a word with you.

the chains of promethia expansion covered all the accessory slots, hai2you swift belt, ninurta's sash, brutal earring, boxer's mantle, rajas ring, love torque, etc, etc, etc. in ToAU SE went with set bonuses, while nifty, often the full set bonus isnt worthy of preventing hodgepodgeing like we always have. SE learned from this and made set bonus in WotG scalable with how many pieces of the set you are wearing.

the next step is coming in the mini expansions, customizable armor! holy ps2 limitations, batman! people have speculated that the next two mini expansions will finish off the sets with head, leg, hand, and boot armors, and if SE does right they will mix what is avaliable to put in every slot, making an entire set fully customized by the players, yet not gamebreaking enough to render all the rest of the nifty gear avaliable obsolete.

SE has definately gotten better at designing armor as the years have gone on.

Edited, Mar 25th 2009 2:43am by Buront
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Lv75 Elvaan Thief, Dragoon, Warrior, Black Mage, Ninja, Bard
Number of times I have reached 75 because of death: 100
Total Merits: 432 Levels until Maat Cap: 37
Why fight like a man when I can fight like a chick with a bear?
#6 Mar 24 2009 at 10:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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A+ Dagger

Native Dual Wield (probably only upto II)

S.
#7 Mar 24 2009 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
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EvilTedy wrote:
Do you go SA lvl 5 for better DD in Exp situations, or TA lvl 5 for better hate transfer in HNM situations.


Trick Attack, because a) it's a less selfish merit, given its usefulness on HNM, etc., and b) it's much easier to land consistently in merits, and thus more likely to pay off in the long run.

Edited, Mar 25th 2009 3:11am by Angina
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#8 Mar 24 2009 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
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EvilTedy wrote:
Anyways the issue with SATA is still you can only pick one, that choice is Situational as well. Do you go SA lvl 5 for better DD in Exp situations, or TA lvl 5 for better hate transfer in HNM situations.
noone's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to choose triple attack merits. 5sa and 5ta is absolutely avaliable, and it absolutely wouldnt be a waste of merits if you chose to go that route.

edit: when did you get your own homoerotic admirer angina? and where can i get one of my own?

Edited, Mar 25th 2009 2:53am by Buront
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Lv75 Elvaan Thief, Dragoon, Warrior, Black Mage, Ninja, Bard
Number of times I have reached 75 because of death: 100
Total Merits: 432 Levels until Maat Cap: 37
Why fight like a man when I can fight like a chick with a bear?
#9 Mar 24 2009 at 11:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Buront wrote:
edit: when did you get your own homoerotic admirer angina? and where can i get one of my own?


Not only is this the first time anyone's ever commented on my sig, but it's hilarious to boot. I kind of want to sig you as well, but I have too much crap there already; it's a bit ostentatious.

Edited, Mar 25th 2009 3:18am by Angina
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#10 Mar 24 2009 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Accuracy Bonus 1-3. If Dancer gets our WS and 3 levels of evasion bonus we should get this.

1.75 cRatio bonus on Trick Attack, same thing Steel Cyclone and Ground Strike get.

Edited, Mar 25th 2009 4:21am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#11 Mar 25 2009 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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you could quote me, and have the words homoerotic admirer be a link to the other thread, but thats just my narcissism speaking. oh, and when you send me in the direction of vaguely homosexual men looking for someone to revere, please make sure they are much vaguer than the people in the videos that milich likes to post. or not, im open to new ideas.
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Lv75 Elvaan Thief, Dragoon, Warrior, Black Mage, Ninja, Bard
Number of times I have reached 75 because of death: 100
Total Merits: 432 Levels until Maat Cap: 37
Why fight like a man when I can fight like a chick with a bear?
#12 Mar 25 2009 at 1:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Hide: No comment, nothing i can think of can make this useful.


I'd be happy if they added a new piece of gear with "Enhances Hide effect" on it. This would add sneak and deodorize effects to hide so you could lose hate on any mob following you. It would also allow you to SATA - hide - WS on any mob, not just track by sight ones.
#13 Mar 25 2009 at 4:46 AM Rating: Good
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Angina wrote:
Trick Attack, because a) it's a less selfish merit, given its usefulness on HNM


The only reason I have a problem with this is that @ HNM if your pld or nin needs your help to hold hate, you need a new tank. Really, they can cap enmity in like 20 seconds if they know what they are doing. Your other point about TA being easier to land in merits is 100% true though, unless you get those stupid guys that see you positioning and move on purpose.

Edit: pld or nin, not pld/nin

Edited, Mar 25th 2009 8:09am by Meldi
#14 Mar 25 2009 at 5:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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elenie wrote:
I'd be happy if they added a new piece of gear with "Enhances Hide effect" on it. This would add sneak and deodorize effects to hide so you could lose hate on any mob following you. It would also allow you to SATA - hide - WS on any mob, not just track by sight ones.


I have been wanting something like this for a while

EvilTedy wrote:
Give us a Reverse Accomplice/Collaborator, i made a thread about this a while back. But basically it would let us place our current hate on another player. 25% on a 1m timer or 50% on a 5m timer, both would be tied to Accomplice and Collaborator so that you cant spam them together.


I love that they added accomplice/collab, but I am annoyed that they share a recast timer. I also think that the reverse Accomplice idea would go a long way to making us the enmity manipulation specialists that SE wishes we were.

I really wouldnt want them to be tied to accomplice/collab timers though

Oh and also...I request that they increase the distance. Its so hard to pull off effecitively, with good timing (when seconds mean death for a mage) when you have to practically run up and hump the hate from them.

Buront wrote:
fix perfect dodge


yeah...I remember them saying a few years back they were "considering" it IE: "F*** YOU, silly thf. You were not meant to dodge arrows...WE GAVE YOU MUG....now go steal some Gilz...save up for an airship pass and kindly STFU"

Personally I would like to see Aura Steal timer seperate from Steal. Great ability....REALLY should NOT be tied to steal timer....that is beyond ghey. I would have 5/5 in that for sure if it wasn't. It just feels like they are saying "We aren't going to give you any items worth while to steal from monsters, so here steal their protect in dynamis all night long and kindly STFU."

Ah well...at least they still let us blindly hope.....

Edited, Mar 25th 2009 9:18am by ThiefKiller

Edited, Mar 25th 2009 9:19am by ThiefKiller
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#15 Mar 25 2009 at 6:10 AM Rating: Good
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I wish they can make SA and TA more than it is right now. If theres a new ability that can combine with SA or TA to gain additional effect would be interesting.

For instances like: SA+MUG would create a form of damage and a minor stun/evasion down effect.


Dunno, I only want A+ dagger. And make us hit easier on higher def mobs, it's weird to wear all these attack stuff with pizza, and your dagger is still hitting below 10s!
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#16 Mar 25 2009 at 6:44 AM Rating: Good
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not expecially when you consider the warrior next to you is hitting in the 60s
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Lv75 Elvaan Thief, Dragoon, Warrior, Black Mage, Ninja, Bard
Number of times I have reached 75 because of death: 100
Total Merits: 432 Levels until Maat Cap: 37
Why fight like a man when I can fight like a chick with a bear?
#17 Mar 25 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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noone's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to choose triple attack merits. 5sa and 5ta is absolutely avaliable, and it absolutely wouldnt be a waste of merits if you chose to go that route.



Actually yes it would. I'm not usually one to criticize other's playstyle, but as far as merits 5 triple attack is by far and away that superior a choice for category 1, it's just that big of a change. While I agree 5/5 ta and sa can be useful, compared to 5/5 triple and other 5 in timers it's still wasteful. There are rare instances where I will say certain merits are best but 5/5 triple and AL LEAST ONE feint should be a standard. The 50 seconds each of sa and ta is nice, but triple 5/5 is so much nicer. Feint is the one merit I say is absolutely required to put at least one point in, it's just that big O.o.

And as far as the comment on choosing trick attack or sneak attack for a timer if you go 5/5, I chose sneak attack myself. This is a personal preference and both work very well, but since I enjoy ballista and since in a stacked weaponskill you gear for dex and not agility sneak attack is a little bit more powerful than trick attack in damage weight. In HNM my shells had tanks that were pretty good with hate and the difference of 10 seconds on trick attack was never a liability to me, but I certainly couldn't hold it against anyone to merit TA over SA, as said, this is a personal preference.

Edited, Mar 25th 2009 11:39am by Melphina
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#18 Mar 25 2009 at 7:58 AM Rating: Decent
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The only thing I would like to see is a job trait that enhances the accuracy/potency of bolt procs. Or ****, just make them proc more often for any job. Or make a high level version.

Besides that, I like where thief is for the most part. Except for mug. Whoever decided on the 15 minute recast timer, and no additional useful effect, was definitely hitting the bong.

Edited, Mar 25th 2009 8:59am by Wolfhart
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#19 Mar 25 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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i didnt say they would be the best, just not wasteful. i dont care to do the math because i've already done my merits, and triple attack merits cut out the human error factor, but i seriously doubt that one setup would lag seriously behind the other if human error was not a factor.
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Lv75 Elvaan Thief, Dragoon, Warrior, Black Mage, Ninja, Bard
Number of times I have reached 75 because of death: 100
Total Merits: 432 Levels until Maat Cap: 37
Why fight like a man when I can fight like a chick with a bear?
#20 Mar 25 2009 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Along the lines of bolts...
Please give us access to more bolt options! At least Holy Bolts lol.

I also think that Mug should have a damage spike attached to it, and also be stackable with SA for a really big spike every 15 minutes (not excessive, but say between 500-800).

I really don't think THF (or any jobs) needs a native dual weild, but I do think that an A+ in dagger would be a welcome addition IMO.
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#21 Mar 25 2009 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Whoever thinks thf merits are weak needs to go spend some time with other jobs. Hai2u ninja!

Triple Attack rate and Feint are *awesome* merits, which other jobs would kill for. Aura Steal is pretty pimp, too. 10s off of SA is pretty **** nice, too. I honestly think thf has some of the best merits in the game. 2s alone may be small, but once it's at 10s, it's pretty awesome.

The only thing I don't like about thf as it stands is Perfect Dodge. It's almost as useless as Mijin Gakure.
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Findanniin wrote:
"Last reply Mithradoom. Well, someone had to go rain on the happy parade" was exactly what went through my head. xD


Keliaffxi wrote:

ITT: The Gimpire Strikes Back
#22 Mar 25 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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no joke.. if you are going to sacrifice your own life, you should do more than 600~800 dmg. or at least have it work kinda like throat stab, massive dmg spike that leaves you with 10% of your current hp.
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Lv75 Elvaan Thief, Dragoon, Warrior, Black Mage, Ninja, Bard
Number of times I have reached 75 because of death: 100
Total Merits: 432 Levels until Maat Cap: 37
Why fight like a man when I can fight like a chick with a bear?
#23 Mar 25 2009 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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Just removing weakened state from Mijin would at least make it useable; all 2hrs can be worked into some sort of strategy, except Mijin. A "free" 600dmg nuke it still absolutle crap, but it's an improvement.
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Findanniin wrote:
"Last reply Mithradoom. Well, someone had to go rain on the happy parade" was exactly what went through my head. xD


Keliaffxi wrote:

ITT: The Gimpire Strikes Back
#24 Mar 25 2009 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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I'd like a 1.75 cRatio boost on DE, since sam already has that and more.
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#25 Mar 25 2009 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
I want:

1. Accuracy bonus 1 & 2, OR

2. "Viciousness" job trait that ignores a percentage of a mobs defense that scales up slightly as the mob is higher level than you. Lets say it starts when the mob is 5 levels higher than you, but it only ignores 2-3% of the monsters defense, at 10 levels higher than you it starts ignoring 5-7% of the monsters defense, and at 15, it is ignoring 10%. Handy for merits, and even handier for fighting gods/hnm, that is if your linkshell lets you actually melee because of your tp feeding, which brings me to...

3. Native subtle blow. Seriously, we could do with a full line of subtle blow up to at least 3.

4. cRatio bonus on SB, SA, and TA.
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#26 Mar 25 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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if i could fully express my hatred for topics like this ("what should SE 'fix'?" and the related "what do you think the next update will be like guys?"), that expression would not only crash alla, but cause connectivity issues for most of if not all the world. the hatred would be so big that you would be driven insane just by reading it.
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#27 Mar 25 2009 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
I'd like a 1.75 cRatio boost on DE, since sam already has that and more.


Put it on TA and let it be subbed. But it only works with 1H weapons. This makes THF a stronger hate controller in endgame and /THF would make 1H weapons relevant again.


Edited, Mar 25th 2009 7:40pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#28 Mar 25 2009 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, if we got the title of the master of hate controller, make us really good at it..

Collaborator is nice, but the range of it is screaming "OMG stop running mages, i r coming to save yooooooooooooou...or not."

Some kind of boost on racc would be nice too, like the rng acc bonus trait, giving us another option on hnms, say..jailer of faith.
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lolgaxe+1 wrote:
Shock value isn't always a bad thing. Square Enix does it all the time. I mean, put a Ninja in a Walahra Turban and have him two hour. Is that politically correct? NO.

#29 Mar 25 2009 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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milich wrote:
if i could fully express my hatred for topics like this ("what should SE 'fix'?" and the related "what do you think the next update will be like guys?"), that expression would not only crash alla, but cause connectivity issues for most of if not all the world. the hatred would be so big that you would be driven insane just by reading it.


If I could fully express my hatred for DRG DRK and SAM, well...let's just say it would be bigger.
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#30 Mar 25 2009 at 9:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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1. Native dual wield up to II.

2. A+ in dagger.

3. Stun effect on Mug and/or make it give dmg.

4. Lower the friggin' Mug recast timer.

5. Improve Perfect Dodge by not only dodging ranged attacks, but by also making Accomplice/Collaborator recast timers 6 seconds while under effect.

Edited: Not sure about #5 now, with Accomplice/Collaborator being lv. 65 haha...

Edited, Mar 26th 2009 2:11am by Jevilwolf
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#31 Mar 25 2009 at 9:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I could fully express my hatred for DRG DRK and SAM, well...let's just say it would be bigger.


Why hate what other jobs have? You can cry about what your job doesn't have, but it makes no sense to whine about other jobs being strong. Face it, you aren't taking an alliance of THF's to events. You NEED what abilities and talents other jobs have. Why does THF have to be superior in damage on merit party mobs where all theorycrafting is done? I think its currently adequate, but its just harder to make THF shine compared to other jobs. Its a very busy job requiring lots of gear sets and lots of focused attention. Don't like that? Don't play THF. The biggest problem with THF has always been the perception that, in general, most THFs don't know how to play their jobs. Those guys make all THFs look bad. I personally like my THF a lot as it is.
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#32 Mar 25 2009 at 10:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheBarrister wrote:
milich wrote:
if i could fully express my hatred for topics like this ("what should SE 'fix'?" and the related "what do you think the next update will be like guys?"), that expression would not only crash alla, but cause connectivity issues for most of if not all the world. the hatred would be so big that you would be driven insane just by reading it.


If I could fully express my hatred for DRG DRK and SAM, well...let's just say it would be bigger.


/facepalm. if you want every job to be the same, why don't you just play an FPS like counter-strike or halo or something?
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#33 Mar 25 2009 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
1. Native dual wield up to II.

2. A+ in dagger.

3. Stun effect on Mug and/or make it give dmg.

4. Lower the friggin' Mug recast timer.

5. Improve Perfect Dodge by not only dodging ranged attacks, but by also making Accomplice/Collaborator recast timers 6 seconds while under effect.


What he said!

Quote:
If I could fully express my hatred for DRG DRK and SAM, well...let's just say it would be bigger.


I used to feel the same until I lvled those jobs.... now I hate myself /emo /stab-own-face!!!!
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#34 Mar 26 2009 at 3:20 AM Rating: Good
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It's not so much the topic that's annoying, it's that the person who starts them tends to think of themselves as the "voice of the people." I don't think there's anything more annoying than some peon that has little idea of how things work in the game making topics about how a job needs fixing and how everyone on that job wishes for the same things they do.
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#35 Mar 26 2009 at 3:35 AM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
/facepalm. if you want every job to be the same, why don't you just play an FPS like counter-strike or halo or something?


The amusing thing is that nowadays there are **** fine FPS with job systems in them that rely on the same kinds of teamwork and diversity that FFXI revolves around. Killzone 2 even allows you a "subjob" or sorts, to combine the abilities of two different classes.

That wasn't entirely relevant, I suppose, but it struck me as noteworthy.
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#36 Mar 26 2009 at 6:57 AM Rating: Decent
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JaxReborn wrote:
Quote:
If I could fully express my hatred for DRG DRK and SAM, well...let's just say it would be bigger.


Why hate what other jobs have?


I honestly don't (well I personally don't like the history of DRKs and DRGs on Alla complaining that they somehow needed a change).

It was a response to some douchebag coming on the Thief forum and telling us Thieves to STFU b/c we don't need anything.

Troll more, k, Milch?
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#37 Mar 26 2009 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's not so much the topic that's annoying, it's that the person who starts them tends to think of themselves as the "voice of the people." I don't think there's anything more annoying than some peon that has little idea of how things work in the game making topics about how a job needs fixing and how everyone on that job wishes for the same things they do.


Wow, did you even watch the Youtube video, i wanted to unload some ideas out of me head. Also, whats a WAR doing trolling in a THF forum? Oh and SE just announced a HUGE update for WHM, so doing one for THF in the forseeable future is possible.

Back on Topic,

Quote:
1. Native dual wield up to II.

2. A+ in dagger.

3. Stun effect on Mug and/or make it give dmg.

4. Lower the friggin' Mug recast timer.

5. Improve Perfect Dodge by not only dodging ranged attacks, but by also making Accomplice/Collaborator recast timers 6 seconds while under effect.


1. A+ in dagger: I Agree

2. Natural Dual Wield: Why make more reasons for people to NOT use NIN/ anymore..

3. Stun on Mug or damage: Damage is good, but knowing SE it would suck. "Bash" effect would be better.

4. Mug lower recast: Everyone wants this.

5. Perfect Dodge: Any fix for this will probably be a good one.

Edited, Mar 26th 2009 9:47am by EvilTedy
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#38 Mar 26 2009 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheBarrister wrote:
JaxReborn wrote:
Quote:
If I could fully express my hatred for DRG DRK and SAM, well...let's just say it would be bigger.


Why hate what other jobs have?


I honestly don't (well I personally don't like the history of DRKs and DRGs on Alla complaining that they somehow needed a change).

It was a response to some douchebag coming on the Thief forum and telling us Thieves to STFU b/c we don't need anything.

Troll more, k, Milch?


i told MNKs and SAMs the same thing before the 2h update and afterward. SE themselves (and the whiners who make threads like this) don't understand game mechanics and balance well enough to implement such changes anyway, generally, so i'd prefer they left **** alone or only made small, useful tweaks. sorry, but "please POWER UP my already extraordinarily well balanced and widely useful job because SOME SAM I MET PARSED 5% HIGHER THAN ME!" doesn't fall under that category.

plus i just think these (and speculation topics) are stupid. who cares? i know some people really do care about "my idea for THF JA" threads, but i can't see why;;;. this is much more opinion based than argument based... but then again, so is your silly opinion about 2h jobs (i assume you're one of those people who thinks 1h/MNK jobs can't possibly keep up with 2h jobs "because the game is broken" or that it's impossible to be a bad SAM or whatever these people think).
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#39 Mar 26 2009 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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I would love A+ dagger or any other acc/att or just acc or just att boost to thf in any way. (new JT, JA, weapons skill, some uber crazy thf only equip with no equivalent for other jobs lol, doesnt matter to me)

However, giving thf DW or a few other the other crazy things in this thread seem like way too much of a stretch to me. Changing PD to avoid RA would get rid of the only way to gain tp on mobs during PD, not sure i would love that. DW is the nin trait that makes them nin, if other jobs got it wow, just would be a huge slap in the face lol.

Guess all I really want from SE is for a Heca Sub to show up in my d box as a special gift for me only. That would rock.
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#40 Mar 26 2009 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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LordTrey wrote:
DW is the nin trait that makes them nin, if other jobs got it wow, just would be a huge slap in the face lol.

Technically MNKs were known for Martial Arts, and PUP got that. However, if you want the same exchange, I don't think I'd want native DW for C+ Dagger ¬¬
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#41 Mar 26 2009 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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EvilTedy wrote:
Wow, did you even watch the Youtube video,
Nope. Believe it or not, just because you made a thread doesn't mean you're the only one being posted to/about. If you actually read your own thread, you'd have noticed several posts about how these sort (Speculation/Wish) of threads are annoying. I simply added my view on that subject.
EvilTedy wrote:
Also, whats a WAR doing trolling in a THF forum?
Are you some sort of authority figure saying where people can and cannot post? I post where I want to post, it's what I do. It's part of my charm, as it were, and if I weren't trying to get either Darkdoom or Nilatai to win this contest instead of myself, I might be a little less abrasive.

(Though, I doubt that.)
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#42 Mar 26 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Personally, I don't have a problem with how THF performs as it is. If you gear it properly, ie.

  • To TP in Haste and Accuracy
  • To SA in a DEX gear
  • To WS in DEX/Acc dependant on situation
  • To TA in an AGI gear(dependant on WS or not)

  • You will have no problems being a great DD for your party. Especially on the omfGgG bird camp.

    Perfect Dodge, whilst it is an "Invincible -1", still isn't quite as crap as Azure Lore or Mijin Gakure. I have found that it has its uses in emergencies, especially those where you need to control an unruly link that wont be utsusemi tanked.

    Mug is just a joke. I don't particularly see it as a deficit to the job. It's there for the same reason that we have chocobos instead of mounts: It's FF. If you want to feel special then go and mug a sky god. You will get a good 4k gil at least. When you consider the scale of gil in FFXI, the last thing you need is everyone switching to THF or /THF as a lolfarmingjob. This stigma is already worse than it should get already. I see countless people trying to farm with /THF sub, TH1, when another sub could be increasing their kill rate tenfold and potentially increasing their drops more than TH1 could.

    Our merits are great. If you have to make a decision between what to choose, then it's proof that your job has a good choice of merits. Seriously, anyone that has NIN levelled will know exactly how crap they can be. THF has one of the best merit ability lines out there. Embrace them at your own style (although I will strongly suggest TrippleAttack 5/5 followed by SA recast, as TrickAttack is useless solo).

    If anything could be adjusted to THF, I would expand on the "THF is the master of enmity" theme. A reverse Accomp/Collab would fit comfortably, but possibly a little to much. I think the dynamics of endgame would be destroyed too much if it allowed thieves to redirect hate to anybody. It would deem most of the complex mechanics we have up to date as null and void. I hardly expect SE to incorporate such a change in order to satisfy one jobs finesse. 5%, or maybe 10% Enmity on a 5 minute timer? Maybe. Just maybe.

    I think people should be happy with the way THF has turned out. It has become one of the most balanced jobs in FFXI. It serves a definate purpose against 19 others in endgame, and provides an inpenetrable service for parties 30-60, for which beyond we can outdo our subbers by gearing appropriately. In conclsusion I would have to say, keep THF as it is, and, if you do change anything, don't make it ruin our style.

    Edited, Mar 26th 2009 9:50pm by mikeyc
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    #43 Mar 26 2009 at 6:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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    mikeyc, Star Breaker wrote:
    If anything could be adjusted to THF, I would expand on the "THF is the master of enmity" theme. A reverse Accomp/Collab would fit comfortably, but possibly a little to much. I think the dynamics of endgame would be destroyed too much if it allowed thieves to redirect hate to anybody. It would deem most of the complex mechanics we have up to date as null and void. I hardly expect SE to incorporate such a change in order to satisfy one jobs finesse. 5%, or maybe 10% Enmity on a 5 minute timer? Maybe. Just maybe.

    I think people should be happy with the way THF has turned out. It has become one of the most balanced jobs in FFXI. It serves a definate purpose against 19 others in endgame, and provides an inpenetrable service for parties 30-60, for which beyond we can outdo our subbers by gearing appropriately. In conclsusion I would have to say, keep THF as it is, and, if you do change anything, don't make it ruin our style.

    Edited, Mar 26th 2009 9:50pm by mikeyc


    obviously i fully agree with the last paragraph (since i already expressed such sentiments), but actually (despite my hatred for these kinds of threads) i agree with the second to last paragraph too. accomplice/collaborator was a great idea on SE's part, one of the best they've had regarding job buffs, ever. it's beautiful: very helpful, very situational, strong enough to make the job desired in certain situations, but not so strong that it excludes other party setups or makes the game too easy (though the game is already kind of easy). i agree too that going further on that enmity road could threaten to be too powerful, but i think it's a viable avenue for buffs.
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    #44 Mar 26 2009 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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    EvilTedy wrote:
    2. Natural Dual Wield: Why make more reasons for people to NOT use NIN/ anymore..
    Even if THF gets native dual wield II, /nin will still has its place in situations where it's beneficial to have Utsusemi as well as sneak/invisible (Nyzul for example) and solo.
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    #45 Mar 26 2009 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
    A+ dagger would be pretty awesome to have.

    but native dual wield is kinda broken, thats half of the super sweet goodness of /NIN. think about it, if THF had native dual wield, i'd just go /WAR, which would lower my survivability, and im not to good on the number crunching, but i think id be dishing out some nice damage. BUT then other classes will complain that THF is to **** and want their jobs mega-powered also.
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    #46 Mar 26 2009 at 11:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Quote:
    A+ dagger would be pretty awesome to have.


    This I will agree with, i would take this. However

    Quote:

    but native dual wield is kinda broken, thats half of the super sweet goodness of /NIN. think about it, if THF had native dual wield, i'd just go /WAR, which would lower my survivability, and im not to good on the number crunching, but i think id be dishing out some nice damage. BUT then other classes will complain that THF is to **** and want their jobs mega-powered also.


    Not if you were any good you wouldn't. I had issues with survivability when I first dinged 75 as /war, but back then it was managable with my inferior gear. today it is not. I've tried /war recently "for old times sakes" and I received too much damage, I haven't tried since. I went meriting today so I can give you an idea of what my shadowless thief would be like if it had berserk AND dual wield.

    Party setup was as follows: This was a linkshell party, bard bard rdm standard The other melees were the elitest you will see. The red line is a full utsukane 5/5 black belt destroyers awesome off the charts monk (Milich will smile at this), and the blue line is a HNM level dragoon/samurai with full gear, the blue dot indicates the dragoons wyvern. The party was sick, 24k exp/hr and as you will see, my damage was so close to the two I did pull hate.

    Awesome party was awesome!!

    Analyzing the data you will see my accuracy was only 83%, the monks accuracy was 86% and the dragoons accuracy was 87%. 83% is GOOD accuracy for my thief with coeurl subs. Feint was useless because the birds didn't live longer than 15-20 seconds so by the time I added feint the thing was dead. On a related side note THIS is the power of homam and is also a big reason I will be speccing my Merke Homam style ^^. Moving along..... by looking at the damage you can deduce several things

    1:) Utsukane BB destroyers monk really is just THAT sick.
    2:) Because this is a linkshell party with the best end game players around, it's an accurate representation of the relative potential of each jobs dd output capabilities.
    3:) Most parties will not have end game players, 95% of pickups have sucky players and I'd be tanking it all. and most importantly

    4:) My thief put out almost as much DD as the dragoon. The drg never held tp beyond 110%, knew how to use meditate etc etc, he was good! A difference of 3-4% of party damage is more than acceptable to me when you consider what the two OTHER melees and buffs were. I had a LOT of fun in this party, it was REALLY fast paced and off the wall. That said, I don't claim to be the best dd in the game, I am not.But I can keep up with the biggest heavy hitters well enough I NEED shadows. Most parties are not this good, in which case it will be ME taking the highest hate, and had I been able to use Berserk!!! in that party with dual wield and no shadows I would be dead, leading to me subbing /ninja ANYWAY, just like the monk (whaddya know).

    Btw, the monk never invites thieves to merit, but because we're in the same linkshell he made an exception for me. After that party he will continue to make exceptions for me in the future, so this right there should tell you what a good thief is capable of doing. At least for ME going shadowless... is not an option

    Edited, Mar 27th 2009 3:42am by Melphina
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    #47 Mar 26 2009 at 11:41 PM Rating: Decent
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    Merits is not the problem, ability to be anything other than a mosquito on HNM is the problem.

    When SE spilled the beans and told people a THF only has to poke the mob and then drop from the alliance they screwed us.

    EvilTedy wrote:


    Give us a Reverse Accomplice/Collaborator, i made a thread about this a while back. But basically it would let us place our current hate on another player. 25% on a 1m timer or 50% on a 5m timer, both would be tied to Accomplice and Collaborator so that you cant spam them together.



    I came up with this idea a long time ago and got flamed for it. Of course if they ever actually do it everyone will immediately forget that and talk about how great SE is.

    Edited, Mar 27th 2009 4:46am by Lobivopis
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    I thought of it first:

    http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
    #48 Mar 27 2009 at 12:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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    Quote:
    Merits is not the problem, ability to be anything other than a mosquito on HNM is the problem.


    Note: by HNM below I mean not sky:
    ------------

    Merit style mobs makes up a much larger percentile of the game than actual hnms, as I've said about dynamis limbus farming salvage einherjar assault etc etc, in which case thief is fine as a DD. On HNM there is just no way for thief to hold their own with the big hitters, the melee formula doesn't allow it.

    Formulacraft wrote
    Quote:
    Base Damage x pDIF == Actual Damage.


    Daggers are low damage, low delay. This is fine in some events, but not HNM. It can't be helped, raising daggetr to A+ will grant us 7 attack and 6-7 accuracy, that won't change anything (I'd still like this change though ^^). Altering our capabilities in criticals to be potent on hnm that we are equal damage will break the game everywhere else. HNM is one thing thief just is not a high DD on, barring of course Mandau. I've done HNM, I've been able to put out respectable weaponskills, but wyrms, dragons, khim and cerb etc, they just aren't friendly to thief. I was thrown a bone with accomplice/collaborator and I used it, the people I grouped with appreciated my help, the HNM died, stuff dropped and we got rewarded, that's what I went there for and they were glad to have me. How is that broken?

    The POINT that was being made by others, and even myself, is that not all jobs are equal. I have accepted my role at events, I am good at it, I still affect the outcome. It may not seem glamorous, but if a sac needs to be made and it helps make or break the event I will have the respect of my peers, exp is easy to rebuffer (I'm always capped) and reraise exists. The alternative in that scenario is to link too much stuff and get overwhelemed and wipe, that screws us ALL over. Accomplice/collaborator are GOOD abilities, pair me with a few blms and I can help increase the kill speed by allowing them to hold back less, that alone equates to more damage, just indirectly. and in some cases a LOT of added damage.

    FFXI is about teamwork, thief is very well balanced, we can control hate like no other, we can do GOOD dd on non hnm, and we do still have our place at HNM's too. We ALONE hold the treasure hunter trait, and while you may not like being called upon for it at events, I DOUBT you would want to give it up (I like my droprates thank you very much!!). Flee is just fun, and I like my criticals, and my evasion is beyond compare when I need it. This all wraps me up into a very attractive package. I don't need to be the highest DD at hnm, I more than make up for it elsewhere. I'm NOT saying thief couldn't use a boost, but it doesn't have to nor should it be one that makes us "OSSUM DD AT HNM". I would LIKE a boost, but within reason.
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    #49 Mar 27 2009 at 1:02 AM Rating: Default
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    As said earlier in this thread adding 1.75 cRatio bonus to Trick Attack would go a long way toward gaining THF respect on HNMs. We still wouldn't outdamage SAM or DRK or whatever but WS numbers are what people pay attention to. Not to mention it would help us keep hate on the tank better.

    Edited, Mar 27th 2009 6:04am by Lobivopis
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    I thought of it first:

    http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
    #50 Mar 27 2009 at 5:09 AM Rating: Good
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    Quote:
    At least for ME going shadowless... is not an option


    That holds true to any job with respectable equipment though. I can never go war/sam on merits because I just hold hate against everyone..! (Same goes to thf/war, even with lesser equipment compare to what Melphina has, I can probably keep up to most jobs.)


    I still would like some kind of boost on high def mobs - whatever it is..kirin, genbu, any HNMs. It's silly to have 600+ atk and still hit for 5's and 10's, and the war next to me using AF boots are dealing 40+ damage a swing(**** my war can use haste gear on sky gods pair with pizza, wtf?)

    That's truly only small change I would like. Some kind of better weapon on HNMs besides enfeeble and hate-stealing.

    (please no dw trait, that's broken imo)

    Edited, Mar 27th 2009 8:11am by Haletxamehk
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    #51 Mar 27 2009 at 7:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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    Quote:
    As said earlier in this thread adding 1.75 cRatio bonus to Trick Attack would go a long way toward gaining THF respect on HNMs


    Accepted, this adjustment I will take as well. Combined with A + dagger skill, that would be a more balanced fix. Dual wield isn a bad idea, but these two combined would be more than respectable, and I'd like this.
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