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#1 Jun 12 2011 at 8:32 PM Rating: Decent
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just starting out and was thinking of lvling rdm as a sub,

would it make a good sub since you will get refresh and fast cast?
#2 Jun 13 2011 at 5:36 AM Rating: Good
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I should probably write up a guide to this based on the results of this thread. You might want to check it out. Essentially /SCH is still the best sub for WHM but /RDM and /BLM are both useful sometimes.
#3 Jun 13 2011 at 7:11 AM Rating: Good
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Is sch really the best sub due to how fast casts works now? It seems to go past the normal cap now where as /sch arts do not seem to.
#4 Jun 13 2011 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Light Arts has actually always gone past the cap, it's Fast Cast that only recently seems to have been given a catch-up. Fast Cast does give a larger reduction from /RDM (15% at Lv45) compared to Light/Dark Arts (10%).

However, there are other much bigger benefits to /SCH:
  • Skill bonuses. All skills are brought up to B+ level. For example, enhancing magic caps at 315 for WHM. Light Arts brings that up to 341. This has many benefits such as stronger barspells, Auspice, Boost-spells, and enfeebles.
  • Accession - Priceless for being able to cast Stoneskin and the like.
  • Celerity - Priceless for casting fast spells in a fix, I use it a lot on Raise III and Stoneskin when I don't want to be taken away from my healing duties for very long.
  • Dark Arts - Just like Light Arts, gives skill bonuses. This lets us cast spells like Aspir, Impact, Drain, etc. at very high skill levels. My Impact is rarely resisted and can usually do nearly 2k damage. I tend to drop one of these any time an NM gets the red trigger, and the attribute-down effect often makes the rest of the fight go a little faster.
  • Sleep immunity thanks to Sublimation
  • MP efficiency. A WHM/RDM has a great deal of longevity due to Convert. Convert is usually the argument that wins people over to WHM/RDM without much debate. However, WHM/SCH efficiency allows it to do more with less. A /SCH can cast Cure V for about 34 MP on a Penury + Conserve MP activation. In fact with Orison pants+2, you can actually gain more MP than you spend. /RDM has no Conserve MP, no Penury, no Light Arts, nothing at all to reduce MP costs. They go through mana like a Lambo goes through gasoline. Convert still wins them out in the long run generally, but not always, and it's not as big of a gap as you probably think.


That's just off the top of my head...
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#5 Jun 13 2011 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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Are you sure about the arts. When I blm/rdm I cast much faster than when I /sch and the same occurs for my whm friend who has 47% ct and 22% fc and arts seem to do nothing past the 50% point. I will agree with the skill bonuses and that /sch and /rdm are close on saved mp but accession stoneskin isn't that useful. I'm not arguing that sch isn't a good sub. I'm just trying to say its not as clear cut as /sch is the best. /Rdm has uses as well.
#6 Jun 13 2011 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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However, WHM/SCH efficiency allows it to do more with less. A /SCH can cast Cure V for about 34 MP on a Penury + Conserve MP activation. In fact with Orison pants+2, you can actually gain more MP than you spend


Not true, actually. I've tested it with my Orison pants +2. You can only get spells for free should they cure enough, you cannot gain mp from them. I tested this with Curaga IV in abyssea (which hitting enough targets for a full cure and 50% potency should give mp were that the case). Instead of getting the overflow (which there would have been but I cannot give you the exact numbers) I just broke even.

If you ever wanna test that too to verify for yourself, it'd be easy enough to do with a penury Curaga IV on some hurting melee in Abyssea. Were it the case that you could gain mp, if you penury Curaga IV'd 4 targets for 1000 hp each, you'd make a gain of 70 or more mp. However, you will break even because it doesn't work that way.


All in all I do agree with Pergatory. Sch has a lot more to offer than /rdm does. I think a lot of people just think "OMG CONVERT" and love red mage sub. I prefer to have more utility (and I love being able to curaga 3 other parties) and accession is just too delicious for me to pass up.
#7 Jun 14 2011 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
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Annalise wrote:
Not true, actually. I've tested it with my Orison pants +2. You can only get spells for free should they cure enough, you cannot gain mp from them. I tested this with Curaga IV in abyssea (which hitting enough targets for a full cure and 50% potency should give mp were that the case). Instead of getting the overflow (which there would have been but I cannot give you the exact numbers) I just broke even.

Aww that's a shame, I liked the idea of being able to recover MP by being an astute healer.

Dantedmc wrote:
Are you sure about the arts. When I blm/rdm I cast much faster than when I /sch and the same occurs for my whm friend who has 47% ct and 22% fc and arts seem to do nothing past the 50% point.

I'm sure of it, it's been tested a bunch of times. Further, from what I understand, the 50% fast cast limit has also been removed so even vanilla "Fast Cast" can bring you past 50% now.

Dantedmc wrote:
I will agree with the skill bonuses and that /sch and /rdm are close on saved mp but accession stoneskin isn't that useful.

Stoneskin isn't the only use for Accession, as Annalise pointed out. You can also use it to Curaga other parties, as well as Protectra/Shellra other parties.

You're right though, they both have their uses. I use WHM/RDM outside Abyssea sometimes, like in low-man setups where I'll be stretching my MP thin and won't have anyone to rely on for help healing or recovering MP.
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#8 Jun 14 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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So, to clarify, if your 600hp Cure IV lands for 400hp (overcure), which do you get?

(A) The cost is cut by 2% of 600 --> 12mp
(B) The cost is cut by 2% of 400 --> 8mp
(C) Other: ________
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#9 Jun 14 2011 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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I will agree with the skill bonuses and that /sch and /rdm are close on saved mp but accession stoneskin isn't that useful.


Stoneskin-ga actually is a bit more useful in Voidwatch these days, where the AoE damage can be quite high (and consequently scherzo and earthen armor are being praised). In Abyssea I couldn't care any less, because I have capped -enm, capped cure potency, a whole mess of refresh, a party with very high hp, and Curaga IV spam not stealing hate (and if it does, which is rare, I can easily cure myself until hate is taken away). A 350 stoneskin on someone in abyssea, compared to their several thousand HP, isn't much. Outside abyssea, a 350 stoneskin is a bit more substantial when their HP is much less.

When you're not in abyssea god mode, stoneskin-ga can have its uses. But as pergatory mentioned, that is not the be all end all of accession. Accession has so many nice uses. One other fun use, which I've played with in dynamis (San d'Oria summoner crowd and their pets), is Aspirga on a bunch of clustered slept mobs with MP. I went from close to empty to full in a single cast. Granted that is manifestation, but same principle.

Accession can be very situational in how you use it. But I think it shines pretty well.

Quote:
So, to clarify, if your 600hp Cure IV lands for 400hp (overcure), which do you get?

(A) The cost is cut by 2% of 600 --> 12mp
(B) The cost is cut by 2% of 400 --> 8mp
(C) Other: ________


Orison Pantaloons +1 return 2% of cure as MP
Orison Pantaloons +2 return 5% of cure as MP
(Throwing that in there for clarity so that people are on the same page as us)

The answer you are looking for is choice B

If you cure for 400 HP in Orison Pantaloons +1, it will essentally reduce the mp cost by 8 (the 2% of 400). The maximum cure does not matter; it's instead the actual value that is cured. So if you were WHM/RDM instead of costing 88 MP the spell would cost you 80.

If you were using Orison pantaloons +2, it would reduce the cost by 20, costing you instead 68 mp.

Similarly, my Cure IV does around 600, and my cure III does around 300.

If you used a cure III on that person, you would have saved 15 MP and paid 31 MP for that cure 3.

You could use a capped Cure 2 on them if you really wanted to for 19 mp, resulting in a total of 50 mp (and saving 18 mp over the cure iv)

By avoiding overcuring and using Orison Pantaloons +2, you can save a whole mess of MP over time. I always wanted an effect like what they do, and I feel they are an incredible addition to white mage's arsenal. Especially when you use spells like curaga.

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 6:38pm by Annalise
#10 Jun 14 2011 at 11:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So, to clarify, if your 600hp Cure IV lands for 400hp (overcure), which do you get?

(A) The cost is cut by 2% of 600 --> 12mp
(B) The cost is cut by 2% of 400 --> 8mp
(C) Other: ________


Yeah, it's B. Unlike cureskin, which works based on what you WOULD have cured for, the effect on the AF3 pants works based on what you DO cure for.

Also, for some reason it never occurred to me that the effect on the AF3 pants also works for Curaga. I kinda thought it would be too overpowered if it did. >_>

Edited, Jun 15th 2011 1:50am by Fynlar
#11 Jun 15 2011 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Also, for some reason it never occurred to me that the effect on the AF3 pants also works for Curaga. I kinda thought it would be too overpowered if it did. >_>


Probably because of Afflatus: Solace
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