Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Gear recommendationsFollow

#1 Mar 14 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
**
376 posts
Hello there. im in the middle of raising a mule as WHM to 2box while i duo cleave's for gold box KI's for empyrean weapons. Im at a loss for an accepted set for the WHM.

i was considering a mass cure potency set, but i forgot about casting time. any suggestions for a set that isnt overly difficult to obtain?
____________________________


#2 Mar 14 2011 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Casting time:
As far as casting speed goes, Cure cast time merits and Cure Clogs will already have you near the cap when you couple it along with either Fast Cast from /RDM or Light Arts from /SCH. Cure Clogs have gotten rather expensive nowadays (at least on my server) but they are worth it, IMO.

To pad it, I would advise getting Orison Locket and Orison Pantaloons +1/2. The locket gives pure Fast Cast, not just Cure cast, so it helps all your spells rather than just Cures. (Aceso's Choker is harder/more expensive to obtain, and kinda overdoes it anyway nowadays; I wouldn't bother getting this if you have Cure Clogs.) Orison Pantaloons +2 in particular are one of the best all-around pieces of WHM gear around IMO, and I highly advise going after these as soon as you can. They also give a boost in cast speed to more than just Cures, and they become that much better if you've capped your Cure potency (see below)


Cure potency:
Thanks to the 22% Cure potency magian staff and a means to easily activate 10% Medicine Ring latent in Abyssea without requiring any extraneous gear, much less effort is needed to cap Cure potency. You're already at 32% with just these two items.

10% Noble's Tunic is essentially a standard. You can get slightly better here, but let's just assume 10% for a total of 42%.

7% Orison Cap +1 isn't too hard to get and puts you at 49%. If you bother to +2 it (10%), congrats; you're already at cap with just 4 pieces of gear.

Beyond that, the only real reason to pursue more Cure potency is if you're trying to get rid of the Cure potency body so that you can use Orison Briault Bliaud ******** your inconsistent naming of WHM bodies, SE) +1/2 instead for a stronger Cureskin. There's a few things you can get that conveniently add up to 10%:

3% Orison Cape
2% Orison Earring
5% Serpentes set

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 12:05am by Fynlar
#3 Mar 14 2011 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
**
376 posts
whats the easy way to activate the ring? convert and cure 3/4 of the way?

this is reeally good information. what do you suggest i do with the remaining slots? MND or something?

also, does potency allow you to go over the cap?

Edited, Mar 14th 2011 9:20pm by AsashinoTsuki
____________________________


#4 Mar 14 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
whats the easy way to activate the ring? convert and cure 3/4 of the way?


Just click off your HP buff (this is assuming you're in Abyssea)

Your max HP will drop down but the buff will immediately get reapplied, bringing it back up and leaving you "injured"


Quote:
what do you suggest i do with the remaining slots? MND or something?


I guess, yeah.


Quote:
also, does potency allow you to go over the cap?


What cap?

+Cure potency caps at 50%, which probably requires a total of 51% on your gear (for the same reason why the 25% gear haste cap actually needs 26% to cap, and why achieving -100% spell interruption actually needs -102%)
#5 Mar 14 2011 at 8:17 PM Rating: Decent
**
376 posts
whoops, i meant potency atma, im not sure if atma allows you to break any other caps, but i never knew you could take off a cruor buff like that, i'll have to pick up that ring then definately
____________________________


#6 Mar 14 2011 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
whoops, i meant potency atma, im not sure if atma allows you to break any other caps


Nope. All it would allow you to do is potentially take off some potency gear and stick MND in there or something instead.

However, that's not worth using an atma slot on, IMO. You would more than likely get better bang for your buck by simply using the atma slot for a MND atma instead (and I still would rather just use a Refresh atma instead of that)

To put things in some perspective:

- You can put on a Cure potency atma (+10%), or a +MND atma (+50 assuming you're not already using Atma of the Undying; +30 if you are, or don't have that atma)
- You can put on a Cure potency body (+10% at minimum, up to +14% if you're lucky/rich), or a +MND body (Augur's Jaseran has MND+13; I don't know if there's any that go higher than that, but probably not by much if there are)

Simply put, if you really wanted to have Cure potency in one of those and MND in the other, you'd be better off with getting MND from the atma.


Summary: +Cure potency atma is pretty much never worth using unless you can't reach the cap via your gear, which is something decent WHMs should never be guilty of nowadays.

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 12:07am by Fynlar
#7 Mar 14 2011 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
**
376 posts
thanks a ton for the advice, this is what i came up with

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/204722

the character is a mule, it dosent need the absolute greatest and this setup dosent seem overly hard to get, since the staff looks like it can be done in 2 days

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 12:39am by AsashinoTsuki
____________________________


#8 Mar 14 2011 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,060 posts
Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
whats the easy way to activate the ring? convert and cure 3/4 of the way?


Just click off your HP buff (this is assuming you're in Abyssea)

Your max HP will drop down but the buff will immediately get reapplied, bringing it back up and leaving you "injured"

Forgive my ignorance, but don't you have to be <75% of your base HP to activate the rings? I know some have been tested (like sorc) and shown that simply clicking off your cruor buff will NOT proc the latent, as it will drop you down to "100%".

For instance, if you have 1000 HP normally, and HP cruor buff pushes you to 2000 HP, clicking off the buff and dropping you to 1000/2000 would still be seen as 100% by the rings.

Unless Medicine Ring is unique and does not work this way, which is pretty much my question to begin with.
#9 Mar 14 2011 at 11:45 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
Forgive my ignorance, but don't you have to be <75% of your base HP to activate the rings? I know some have been tested (like sorc) and shown that simply clicking off your cruor buff will NOT proc the latent, as it will drop you down to "100%".


I've heard that the BLM ring doesn't seem to work like the others (or at least the others that people actually bother to use), for some strange reason. I haven't really tested that much out on my BLM yet though, because in Abyssea I actually don't bother using the ring (I prefer to keep my HP up, and the ring makes far less of a difference in Abyssea than it does outside)

I can vouch that this trick WILL indeed work for the WHM ring though.
#10 Mar 15 2011 at 1:17 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,060 posts
Wow really? That's certainly good info to know. Sorc ring I know for sure, from testing it myself, as well as seeing tests done by Rog (screenshots included). Makes me wonder how the others work now, since I had always assumed they were all the same so I avoided using them (as well as advised others not to as well. Oops)
#11 Mar 15 2011 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
2,682 posts
You can always go for a Facio Bliaud later once your mule has been to a few NM fights and built up trophies. Empyrean AF +1 head/legs are fine - obviously +2 are nice but if its just for a mule and you can't get help for it the +1s are great. Sirona's is a decent ring but Med Ring... well I'm not sure its worth the hassle but each to their own.

The only thing I wouldn't skimp on is the staff - it really is worth questing it. I don't think the Orison's locket is worth going out of its way to get tbh... but if you can get it easily enough, then go ahead. You might want a specific haste set though for longer casting spells.

I'd actually recommend Orison Earring and cape as neither are that bad to get. The cape is easier, especially if you can take a MNK in and proc blue during Blunt time.

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 12:34pm by eldelphia
____________________________
Blogging again! http://eldelphia.wordpress.com
#12 Mar 15 2011 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
****
4,213 posts
Fynlar wrote:
Casting time:
As far as casting speed goes, Cure cast time merits and Cure Clogs will already have you near the cap when you couple it along with either Fast Cast from /RDM or Light Arts from /SCH. Cure Clogs have gotten rather expensive nowadays (at least on my server) but they are worth it, IMO.

This is dangerously misleading by the way Fyn, I don't know if you're unaware of how cast speed works or if this was just poorly worded but Cure Cast merits, Cure Clogs, and /RDM won't put you anywhere near the casting speed cap (assuming there even is one).

Of course it's basically impossible to test for certain, but after years of experimenting with various cast speed pieces I've come to the conclusion that there are several different cast speed stats, not just one. "Fast Cast" is one, and "Cure Cast" and "Healing Cast" may also be separate stats as well. I think they compound. So for example, if you have 30% fast cast and 30% cure cast, you'd end up with 70% * 70% = 49% total cast speed.

I've heard rumors of a 50% cap on fast cast... this may be true, but if it is, then it only applies to the vanilla "fast cast" and not to the other types. For example you could get 50% fast cast plus 20% cure cast, and you would end up with significantly more than a 50% total reduction in cast time for cures.

I've done some simple testing that, while it doesn't reveal the finer mechanics, does at least prove that I'm not just pulling your leg. (A lot of this is reposted from my previous posts on various forums.)

I did some testing first with only Light Arts (10%), Cure Clogs (15%), Pantaloons+2 (12%), and my merits (20%). The total if you add them up is 57%. So if there is indeed an overall cap of 50%, I should be well past it. I did multiple casts of various long spells, and they tended to finish around the 53% mark on the spell cast gauge.

Next, I added more equipment:
Orison Locket (5%)
Loquacious Earring (2%)
Winged Wand (2%)
Veela Cape (2%)
Ebur Bliaut (Healing Cast Time -3%)
Incantor Stone (2%)

This adds another 16%, giving me 23% fast cast, 35% cure cast, and 15% healing cast (73% total if you add them up). After doing this, my casts now finish around the 42% mark on the spell cast gauge. I realize that eyeballing the spell cast gauge is not exactly scientific, but the reduction was over 10%... it's hard to chalk that up to latency and/or human error, it's a pretty huge difference.

If my theory of compounding is correct, then the above setup would give me 0.77 * 0.65 * 0.85 = 0.425425, or 42.5% cast time, which matches exactly with my observation. If you do the same for the first test, you get 0.9 * 0.65 * 0.88 = 0.5148, which also almost exactly matches my observation.

My pet theory is that each of the three stats are separate, each compounds with the others, each has a cap of 50%, and there is likely a cap on the total cast speed of 80%. That's just what I'm inclined to believe, but it makes sense if you think about it. Haste was done exactly in this manner. There's a cap for haste from equipment for example, which is 25%, but by combining different kinds of haste it's possible to reduce delay by as much as 80% at which point you hit the hard cap on delay reduction.

P.S. Adding fast cast atma makes my casts finish even faster, well within the 30% range on the spell cast gauge. Celerity takes it even further, finishing the cast at around 25%. Don't be afraid to stack cast speed stats until the cows come home, WHM can cast stuff incredibly fast with all the gear that's available now. I feel like if I was casting much faster, the spell would finish before I started it.
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#13 Mar 15 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
I don't think the Orison's locket is worth going out of its way to get tbh... but if you can get it easily enough, then go ahead.


It's probably the easiest thing to get out of every rare/ex piece of gear listed in this thread so far.

Quote:
Sirona's is a decent ring but Med Ring... well I'm not sure its worth the hassle but each to their own.


Sirona's is kind of a crap ring, really. Medicine is far, far more useful. The only reason Sirona's is there is because we can't wear two Medicine rings. There isn't really anything that great you can throw in the second slot.

Clicking off a buff every now and then is no hassle; melees with Utsusemi have been doing this ever since they got Ichi and Ni, and it's far more difficult for them because they need good timing as well.

Quote:
I've heard rumors of a 50% cap on fast cast... this may be true, but if it is, then it only applies to the vanilla "fast cast" and not to the other types. For example you could get 50% fast cast plus 20% cure cast, and you would end up with significantly more than a 50% total reduction in cast time for cures.


I never knew this; I figured it would just work the same way as recasts (50% cap, no matter what)

Still though, the major things are merits, clogs, AF3+1/2 pants if you have them (only mentioning these really because they're good for more than just casting speed), and what you're getting from your sub. This is already a very good foundation. Beyond that I would focus on capping potency first before worrying about further casting speed stuff.

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 3:36pm by Fynlar
#14 Mar 15 2011 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
**
376 posts
i would much rather keep the medicine ring on and click the buff than have to use up 2-3 other equip slots to get the same effect when i could be using them for MP/casting speed/MND.

also, very intersting information that casting time dosent cap at 50%
____________________________


#15 Mar 15 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
**
466 posts
Try to not overlook the value of -enmity, especially while curebombing in abyssea.
____________________________

#16 Mar 15 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
Try to not overlook the value of -enmity, especially while curebombing in abyssea.


Yep, all that Cure 5/6 spam on the superpimped melee surely pulls gobs of hate.

In all honesty, even if you did pull hate (which generally only happens when there's just one melee on the mob and the mob does a hate reset), WHMs can probably take the hits better than most of those melee can. This is assuming, of course, that your WHM has a proper PDT set. It does, right?

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 4:21pm by Fynlar
#17 Mar 15 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
**
376 posts
Thank you.

The main time the WHM will be curing is while my war is cleaving while loaded up with -pdt. while ive never done it before and correct me if im wrong, but while getting TP for the first cleave, large cures should have little effect because the mobs were linked. and afterwards, a fell cleave or 2 should take care of the hate, especially with full -enmity merits on whm. ive decided to take a far more defensive stance while fell cleaving because it will be my 1 whm at most. id rather kill slower and take far less damage

while doing NMs, the main will be DNC, and WHM will be doing little curing, lots of bar-spells and mostly removing lame effects like doom


Edited, Mar 15th 2011 4:29pm by AsashinoTsuki
____________________________


#18 Mar 15 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
while doing NMs, the main will be DNC, and WHM will be doing little curing, lots of bar-spells and mostly removing lame effects like doom


Depending on what your healing needs actually are, I would just advise to be very careful in choosing when to have a DNC act as main healer.

Some things to consider:

1) Waltz recast timers. (The biggest factor) Unlike Cures, once you use any Waltz, it locks you out from ALL Waltzes for a certain period of time. As far as I am aware, there is only one piece of equipment that can lower Waltz recast time, and that is the appropriately augmented helm from A Moogle Kupo d'Etat (lowers recast by 2 seconds)

2) Enmity. DNC can dump a "Cure V" but it does not come with the same enmity reduction as Cure V does. Make sure the DNC can handle eventually pulling hate.

3) If you are having the DNC melee as well (instead of relying solely on Regain atmas), be aware of the possibly heightened rate of TP move usage by the enemy.

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 4:32pm by Fynlar
#19 Mar 15 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
**
376 posts
the DNC will be evasion tanking, WHM backup cure/resist buffs/debuff removal. with this method and the right atma i should be able to duo all 3 mobs i need for twashtar. if not, a brd will be the end of that

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 4:31pm by AsashinoTsuki
____________________________


#20 Mar 15 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
**
466 posts
For PDT, I've only got Terra's Staff and Twilight Torque. I've not invested much into PDT/MDT sets yet, I'm slowly working on them.

For example, during a Grauberg caturae shout group, we had an alliance of people (no brews), I often pulled hate on him with just a PLD and MNK tank. Of the 3 or 4 WHMs there, I was curing about the same, if not more, than the others, and took hate the least.

Now, I agree this isn't an every-day occurrence for most people, but on Failfor, there are a lot of sub-par players. Capped -enmity has helped a tremendous amount in these groups.
____________________________

#21 Mar 15 2011 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
Sage
****
5,684 posts
SakkaofValefor wrote:
Of the 3 or 4 WHMs there, I was curing about the same, if not more, than the others.
How does someone even know this?
____________________________
Signature starts here.
#22 Mar 15 2011 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
How does someone even know this?


Parser? >_>

It's not just for damage you know
#23 Mar 16 2011 at 12:18 AM Rating: Excellent
**
466 posts
Not only parsing, but if you watch MP amounts, you can gauge roughly how much they're casting (though it gets more difficult to compare against ones' self if they have less MP/TIC from atmas, iirc only myself and one other WHM had 22~mp/tic, the other at 17) That is just eyeballing, a parser obviously gives the better number.
____________________________

#24 Mar 16 2011 at 6:15 AM Rating: Decent
**
376 posts
how in the world do you get 22/tic?

1 for nobles
10 for MM
3 for refresh
wheres the other 8?
____________________________


#25 Mar 16 2011 at 6:53 AM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
I feel compelled to point out as well that as far as healing goes, a parser still isn't perfect. More specifically, going solely by "amount cured" isn't a perfect way to judge things. Multiple factors must be considered.

Imagine a guy is missing 1k HP and five WHMs Cure V him at once. Only one of them is going to end up with a decent "amount cured" score out of that; the one whose cast finishes first. That doesn't necessarily mean the other WHMs weren't trying.

Quote:
1 for nobles
10 for MM
3 for refresh
wheres the other 8?


20 from atma
1 from body
1 from Serpentes set

^ Most likely method. Another 1/tic can be gotten through augmented Wivre Hairpin.

The guy you were responding to was most likely not taking "external" sources of Refresh (in other words, casted Refresh) into account in his 22/tic figure.
#26 Mar 16 2011 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
2,682 posts
Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
I don't think the Orison's locket is worth going out of its way to get tbh... but if you can get it easily enough, then go ahead.


It's probably the easiest thing to get out of every rare/ex piece of gear listed in this thread so far.

Quote:
Sirona's is a decent ring but Med Ring... well I'm not sure its worth the hassle but each to their own.


Sirona's is kind of a crap ring, really. Medicine is far, far more useful. The only reason Sirona's is there is because we can't wear two Medicine rings. There isn't really anything that great you can throw in the second slot.

Clicking off a buff every now and then is no hassle; melees with Utsusemi have been doing this ever since they got Ichi and Ni, and it's far more difficult for them because they need good timing as well.



Sirona's isn't a 'crap' ring. Its almost a freebie MND ring. Medicine Ring is almost a worthless piece of junk these days as its easy to cap out your cure potency without it. And killing the unicorn Karkadann for the locket is more difficult than killing Marvin for your backpiece...

Orison Head +2 = 10%
Surya's Staff +2 = 22%
Orison cape = 3%

Then you have a ton of choices without even touching the body slot should you want to use Orison.... Orison earring/Serpentes set/roundel earring/augur's hands/scenario pants.... I use

Orison Head+2 = 10%
Surya's Staff +2 = 22%
Orison Cape = 3%
Roundel Earring = 5%
Facio Bliaud = 10% (I have an 11% one without refresh and working on a 13% to ditch the backpiece)

That's 50% right there. I could add in serpentes which is more achievable than a roundel these days. I don't use my cure pot pants for WHM anymore at all... The Orison earring and the +1 head... are both easy to get. Why on earth would you use a medicine ring? Augur's gloves just give you more flexibility.

Why anyone wants to voluntarily remove their HP inside Abyssea I don't know... As for refresh Atma, I use Minnikin only 90% of the time. Oh and /SCH.


Edited, Mar 16th 2011 11:16am by eldelphia
____________________________
Blogging again! http://eldelphia.wordpress.com
#27 Mar 16 2011 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
****
4,213 posts
Fynlar wrote:
20 from atma
1 from body
1 from Serpentes set

^ Most likely method. Another 1/tic can be gotten through augmented Wivre Hairpin.

There's also Orison Bliaud +2, which has 2mp/tick instead of 1. As well as Owleyes for another 1. Moonshade Earring for another 1. Stearc Subligar for another 1.

Possible to get up to 26mp/tick without Refresh/Ballad/etc.
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#28 Mar 16 2011 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
**
376 posts
the whm mule will never be touched from melee, maybe only from the bosses AE elemental attacks, which will be nullified from carols 1, 2, barspell and +100 atma. id rather keep 75%hp to keep potency capped and speed very high than be forced to use back, ear, hands and feet for the same effect, just around 20% slower

now after i finish twashtar and my use for the WHM mule changes, i'll either consider changing, or just suck up the loss of potency and replace the ring with something else. the sirona's ring is a freebie because of skill, vit and mnd. obviously its a piece meant for pld macro, but this is great for a mule where i dont want to spend another 780k for 3 more mnd that will have a negligible effect on cures.
____________________________


#29 Mar 16 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
****
4,213 posts
AsashinoTsuki wrote:
id rather keep 75%hp to keep potency capped and speed very high than be forced to use back, ear, hands and feet for the same effect, just around 20% slower

How does not using the Medicine Ring make you 20% slower?

I'm with Eldelphia on the Medicine Ring. I'd much rather be able to safely cast Auspice, Barspells, Stoneskinga, etc. and not freak out when the mage standing next to me pulls hate. Constantly being at 50-75% HP makes one hesitate at critical moments, makes one cautious where I can act without thinking about whether it'll get me killed. Nothing gets me killed, and I prefer to keep it that way.

If you're sure you know what you're doing, Med Ring can be very effective for you I'm sure... but just don't fool yourself into thinking it doesn't come at a seriously heavy cost. For your WHM mule, since it will probably just stand there blasting Cure V's and not really paying much else attention... this may not be so bad. Just be aware that the Med Ring can easily be the first step on the path to being a bad healer (those healers you see quivering at the back line with capped potency & capped enmity down, hesitating before every cast, paying more attention to keeping themselves going than the group). If your ambition is to make this mule into a proper healer, I suggest losing that Med Ring. If you are just gonna stick it at the back line and use it for Haste and cure bombs, then it's probably alright.
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#30 Mar 16 2011 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
**
376 posts
because using the serp. set and the orison cape/earring to make up for the potency makes me lose the cure clogs, veela cape a fast cast earring whose name i cant think of at the moment.

But thats exactly the situation, the mule is for 1 purpose, and thats to help me lowman glavoid, orthrus and iza...popparazi..wamoura guy. all 3 are pansies as long as you have high resistance, which both/all 2-4 people participating will be near or above 300 for earth or fire(depending on which we are spamming at the momemnt)

WHM is mainly for curebombing me on war when i am fel cleaving (with a highly defensive setup for safety)for key items for pops. other than that, during NMs it will be for emergency cures for me on DNC (high speed, high potency), and putting up barspells, thus very little risk of being attacked or harmed since these NMs dont have any strong attacks that arent elemental, or reset hate.

if somewhere down the line i use this WHM for a pt or a NM that dosent fit this scenario, a more practical set will be used.

dont get me wrong, i really, really appreciate all of you guys' input, but this whm has a very specific use


Edited, Mar 16th 2011 2:01pm by AsashinoTsuki
____________________________


#31 Mar 16 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
Sirona's isn't a 'crap' ring. Its almost a freebie MND ring.


That right there pretty much makes it a crap ring. But like I said, there aren't really any decent rings to cure in other than Medicine anyway, so I can't really fault anyone for using one of these.

Quote:
Medicine Ring is almost a worthless piece of junk these days as its easy to cap out your cure potency without it. And killing the unicorn Karkadann for the locket is more difficult than killing Marvin for your backpiece...


I disagree that it's "easy" to cap without it, but whatever. Even if you're hitting the cap, the first thing you should be focusing on getting rid of is the body (in favor of AF3+1/2 body), not your ring.

The locket is 100% drop, which as far as I'm concerned makes it easier to acquire. I had to kill Marvin numerous times, even with blue stagger, before I got my cape. I hope you're not insinuating that Karkadann is even remotely difficult (he's not)

Quote:
I'm with Eldelphia on the Medicine Ring. I'd much rather be able to safely cast Auspice, Barspells, Stoneskinga, etc. and not freak out when the mage standing next to me pulls hate. Constantly being at 50-75% HP makes one hesitate at critical moments, makes one cautious where I can act without thinking about whether it'll get me killed. Nothing gets me killed, and I prefer to keep it that way.


Anything that can rip that much HP off me with AoE, I don't even bother running in to cast most of that ****; it's usually not worth it, Medicine ring or not. The one exception being Barspells, and in the case of those (if they're even necessary), I just do that after the enemy uses his TP.
#32 Mar 16 2011 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
****
4,213 posts
AsashinoTsuki wrote:
because using the serp. set and the orison cape/earring to make up for the potency makes me lose the cure clogs, veela cape a fast cast earring whose name i cant think of at the moment.

There's no reason you have to lose those items, they only need to be equipped for the start of the cast. Just put a <wait 1> at the end of your /ma "Cure" macro line and swap into Serp set or whatever mid-cast.

AsashinoTsuki wrote:
But thats exactly the situation, the mule is for 1 purpose, and thats to help me lowman glavoid, orthrus and iza...popparazi..wamoura guy. all 3 are pansies as long as you have high resistance, which both/all 2-4 people participating will be near or above 300 for earth or fire(depending on which we are spamming at the momemnt)

WHM is mainly for curebombing me on war when i am fel cleaving (with a highly defensive setup for safety)for key items for pops. other than that, during NMs it will be for emergency cures for me on DNC (high speed, high potency), and putting up barspells, thus very little risk of being attacked or harmed since these NMs dont have any strong attacks that arent elemental, or reset hate.

I think Med Ring is just fine for your purposes then. However, I feel very strongly that a dedicated WHM should never make heavy use of this ring. WHMs function just fine without capped cure potency, this is a shortcut best avoided. Capped potency is awesome but a dedicated WHM should not intentionally run around with 60% HP, that is moronic.

Ask yourself this, how badly are you hurting for MP that you need your cures to be 7% more efficient? The difference between +40% and +50% is 7%. 7% is a lot in this game, but again, are you running out of MP? Are you struggling to Cure fast enough because your Cures need to be bigger? If not, what is that last 10% really getting you? Answer: Nothing but a stroke of the ego.

I saw the logic for Med Ring pre-Abyssea, even though I haven't used one in years. Efficiency was a big deal back then. These days, not so much! Even outside Abyssea now you can get 9mp/tick solo on WHM/RDM. Efficiency just isn't as clutch as it used to be. It's more about general survivability and reaction times these days.

Ok, I'm done ranting on that for now. I'll stop.
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#33 Mar 16 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
**
376 posts
Hmm you make a good point, i didnt think to macro like that. And i kinda forgot about auto regen maybe ******** up the medicine ring effect.

I havent finished working on the whm yet because of constantly having to stop xping to do LBs and such, so everything im doing now is research and planning for twashtar to make the process as smooth as possible
____________________________


#34 Mar 16 2011 at 9:14 PM Rating: Default
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
Ask yourself this, how badly are you hurting for MP that you need your cures to be 7% more efficient? The difference between +40% and +50% is 7%. 7% is a lot in this game, but again, are you running out of MP? Are you struggling to Cure fast enough because your Cures need to be bigger? If not, what is that last 10% really getting you? Answer: Nothing but a stroke of the ego.


I don't really agree with this. Having higher Cure potency is not really a matter of saving MP (although, saving MP *is* an effect of having higher potency); it's more about being able to heal back more HP with the same amount of time/casts.

I've had instances where I've struggled with keeping someone's HP up with constant Curespam (read: trying to fight NMs with just one WHM that would go a LOT smoother with two of them; most recent example I've had of this is the timed pop Goblin in Grauberg... I'm sure there are better examples). In these cases, my MP was not an issue at all. It was simply being able to churn out sufficient HP healed.

I would understand your viewpoint more if we were talking about outside Abyssea; max HP would be a lot lower, and most Cures would end up being "overcures" anyway. Inside Abyssea though, max HP is so much higher that you really want to max potency to keep up with it.

Quote:
And i kinda forgot about auto regen maybe ******** up the medicine ring effect.


Well yeah, but it's not like clicking your HP buff off again is hard >_>

Edited, Mar 16th 2011 11:20pm by Fynlar
#35 Mar 17 2011 at 6:14 AM Rating: Good
**
376 posts
no its not, but i'll likely be too busy making sure i dont get my face eaten off to make sure its still active. not like its a deterrence, just something to think about
____________________________


#36 Mar 18 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
119 posts
Quote:
Anything that can rip that much HP off me with AoE, I don't even bother running in to cast most of that sh*t; it's usually not worth it, Medicine ring or not. The one exception being Barspells, and in the case of those (if they're even necessary), I just do that after the enemy uses his TP.


It's not that anything can generally kill you from the initial aoe it's the hate reset afterwards that can make a situation go sour in almost all cases. You should also be able to keep up all buffs if you time properly after TP moves. Almost no reason you can't keep everything up that doesn't en-dispel, or full dispel every other tp move.
#37 Mar 18 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
You should also be able to keep up all buffs if you time properly after TP moves. Almost no reason you can't keep everything up that doesn't en-dispel, or full dispel every other tp move.


I would care more if I thought those other buffs were really that important. I mean, the NMs are going to get to use their uber moves eventually anyway. Oftentimes, they have Regain anyway so they're going to get to use TP moves regularly no matter how much AGI, Subtle Blow, Auspice, or whatever we try to use.

That's why I'm there on WHM to begin with -- I am better equipped to mop it up than any other job, as long as I'm standing at the ready to do so. I am willing to bet that I've had more people die as a result of me running in to cast Auspice or Boost-AGI than I have saved lives by making sure to apply Auspice or Boost-AGI on them. They're just... really not that great as preventative measures. They're more like delaying measures.

Also, on a semi-related note, do we even know how much AGI/Subtle Blow is needed for the typical MNK in Abyssea to floor their TP feed to most enemies? It wouldn't particularly surprise me if they're already hitting caps in several cases (this is of course referring to the time when Penance Blast isn't active)

Edited, Mar 18th 2011 7:27pm by Fynlar
#38 Mar 19 2011 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
Auspice kinda has a place when you have a 0-1 atma, no food, uncapped tank solo DDing the mob down... Gotta love hearing "I can't hit this ******* thing!" xD

Also Fyn, are you actually sure that clicking off the HP boost while in curepot set is sufficient to proc Medic Ring, or is that just conjecturing? My experiences with Sorc Ring say that that's not nearly enough, and since the difference between Sorc Ring and Medic Ring have to do with how convert HP to MP factor in, Medic should be in the same boat.
____________________________
There are two kinds of people in FFXI, those doing the laughing and those who don't know what's funny.
#39 Mar 19 2011 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
Also Fyn, are you actually sure that clicking off the HP boost while in curepot set is sufficient to proc Medic Ring, or is that just conjecturing? My experiences with Sorc Ring say that that's not nearly enough, and since the difference between Sorc Ring and Medic Ring have to do with how convert HP to MP factor in, Medic should be in the same boat.


Yes, I'm 100% certain. As I said above, I've heard from several sources that the sorc ring doesn't trigger the same way as the other latent rings do.
#40 Mar 20 2011 at 8:25 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
I've heard from several sources


That's just what concerned me lol. To me, the 'Wisdom of Crowds' theory doesn't really apply when said crowd generally can't be expected to wiki the map of the area they're in, much less fire up excel, a calculator, or spellcast.

On the topic at hand, I still don't like Medic because one can nearly-or-fully cap cure pot without it, and having a higher idle HP is advisable when there is likely no support system, and a dead WHM can be a fatal setback. I've never thought, "I wish I had more cure pot" during a strenuous situation. At least, not 10% more.

I guess I'll have to add another bullet point to the list of reasons SE should pull the stick out of their **** and patch the Sorc Ring. If it suddenly glitched and gave 100 MAB, they'd fix that in an SE heartbeat (3 irl days), but somehow the item performing worse than intended is A-O-K.

Edited, Mar 20th 2011 7:45am by tertoonetwothreefour
____________________________
There are two kinds of people in FFXI, those doing the laughing and those who don't know what's funny.
#41 Mar 20 2011 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
119 posts
Fynlar wrote:

They're just... really not that great as preventative measures. They're more like delaying measures.
Edited, Mar 18th 2011 7:27pm by Fynlar


That is... exactly what they are. That is... why you use them. The whole point is to not have them happen soon or often. You should be delaying moves to happen, which in return is less healing/na's, over the course of a fight. There are not many fights that preventive measures(less TP moves) wouldn't hurt.

The whole idea is to see less of 'Supermove 3000'. Why would you want to see more?
#42 Mar 20 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
That's just what concerned me lol. To me, the 'Wisdom of Crowds' theory doesn't really apply when said crowd generally can't be expected to wiki the map of the area they're in, much less fire up excel, a calculator, or spellcast.


Well, like I've said, I haven't done exhaustive testing on the sorc ring because like I said, I don't use it in Abyssea. I can say though that regardless of whatever is buffing your HP, as long as you can type <hpp> and see something less than 76%, your medicine ring should be working.

Weird fact: If you're within the medicine ring proc threshold and you cast Cura/Curaga on yourself such that you get cured over the threshold, the HP restored to you will receive the 10% boost, but it will not for everyone else that it hits with the AoE. >_>

Quote:
That is... exactly what they are. That is... why you use them. The whole point is to not have them happen soon or often. You should be delaying moves to happen, which in return is less healing/na's, over the course of a fight. There are not many fights that preventive measures(less TP moves) wouldn't hurt.


If I'm having zero trouble mopping up the damage anyway whether the move gets used 6 times or 7 times (this is about the difference having Auspice up will make, IF it even makes a difference at all), does it really matter?

Quote:
The whole idea is to see less of 'Supermove 3000'. Why would you want to see more?


Because it's not worth the risk of being caught in said Supermove 3000, medicine ring or not.

Also, because seeing more of the move is usually not that much of a problem. If you can deal with it once, you can usually deal with it multiple times.
#43 Mar 20 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
2,682 posts
If SE takes us out of God Mode (I.e. Abyssea) for 90-99 then it will be interesting to see which spells/JA then start to get more use again. I think post-Abyssea (if there is such a thing) will be quite a wakeup call.
____________________________
Blogging again! http://eldelphia.wordpress.com
#44 Mar 21 2011 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
119 posts
Fynlar wrote:
If I'm having zero trouble mopping up the damage anyway whether the move gets used 6 times or 7 times (this is about the difference having Auspice up will make, IF it even makes a difference at all), does it really matter?

Quote:
The whole idea is to see less of 'Supermove 3000'. Why would you want to see more?


Because it's not worth the risk of being caught in said Supermove 3000, medicine ring or not.

Also, because seeing more of the move is usually not that much of a problem. If you can deal with it once, you can usually deal with it multiple times.


When a spell, that is aoe, lasts 3-5 minutes there isn't enough reason that you couldn't have spent 5 seconds going in to reapply.

It really isn't hard to time yourself right after a tp move to run in and get buffs up. Your creating more work for yourself by actually doing less. You won't be caught in Supermove 3000 because they will not have the TP to use another. Unless of course your feeding them godly levels of TP. But I hear there are traits, gear, abilities, and spells for that issue...
#45 Mar 21 2011 at 11:09 AM Rating: Excellent
**
254 posts
MippsCat wrote:
Fynlar wrote:
If I'm having zero trouble mopping up the damage anyway whether the move gets used 6 times or 7 times (this is about the difference having Auspice up will make, IF it even makes a difference at all), does it really matter?

Quote:
The whole idea is to see less of 'Supermove 3000'. Why would you want to see more?


Because it's not worth the risk of being caught in said Supermove 3000, medicine ring or not.

Also, because seeing more of the move is usually not that much of a problem. If you can deal with it once, you can usually deal with it multiple times.


When a spell, that is aoe, lasts 3-5 minutes there isn't enough reason that you couldn't have spent 5 seconds going in to reapply.

It really isn't hard to time yourself right after a tp move to run in and get buffs up. Your creating more work for yourself by actually doing less. You won't be caught in Supermove 3000 because they will not have the TP to use another. Unless of course your feeding them godly levels of TP. But I hear there are traits, gear, abilities, and spells for that issue...


Well, to be fair, this also depends on the mob. For something like Sedna, which spams TP moves over and over to the point that there is really no good window of time, I'd say this is less important. For mobs like that, I generally get my Barspells/buffs up once at the beginning and don't reapply thereafter. Or if I do, it will be JUST a Barspell and not "icing on the cake" buffs like Auspice/Boost spells. There are certain mobs where you really don't want to take the chance.

This ALSO depends on the degree to which you are low-manning a mob and get the "rhythm" of the fight based on the amount of melee feeding the mob TP (which you noted), so that you can better gauge when to run in and reapply buffs.

Moral of the story (and the game): sh*t's situational! :)

Edited, Mar 21st 2011 1:10pm by Poltergeist27
#46 Mar 21 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
When a spell, that is aoe, lasts 3-5 minutes there isn't enough reason that you couldn't have spent 5 seconds going in to reapply.


Yeah, there is - the effect is too minimal to bother. It also takes a little more than 5 seconds to get in, cast the spell, and get out of range.

Quote:
Your creating more work for yourself by actually doing less.


Disagree. Not having to move at all on WHM makes playing it about as easy as it gets, especially when I'm dual boxing it and can't give it my full attention (very common)

Quote:
You won't be caught in Supermove 3000 because they will not have the TP to use another.


Except they often do. At least, the mobs I fight do. I don't know about what kind of **** ants you're fighting, but chances are they're not using anything threatening enough to bother with things like Auspice either.
#47 Mar 21 2011 at 2:25 PM Rating: Excellent
****
4,213 posts
Regain really isn't that pervasive, there are surprisingly few NMs in the game that actually have this trait. Many of the TP-spam NMs either have a lot of Store TP, or have special behaviors like using multiple TP moves in a row. I'm guessing Sedna is in that camp because Scylla is as well. No regain, but very spammy. More often than not, you can completely halt TP moves by having your DDs turn around, but that requires disciplined DDs which are even harder to find than disciplined WHMs.

I used to be in the "Auspice isn't worth it" camp until Orison Duckbills were released. I don't know if it was just the timing that the AGI update was introduced around the same time, or if the duckbills actually do make a significant difference to the spell, or if it's just placebo, but Auspice seems very much worth using now.

I don't know that I really have much of a point except to say that if you haven't tried Auspice lately, I suggest giving it a second chance especially if you're low-manning.
____________________________
Pergatory (Asura, Kupo LS) WHM99 ~ SMN99 ~ DRK99
"If you want to know me, look inside your heart." -Lao Tzu
#48 Mar 21 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
Regain really isn't that pervasive, there are surprisingly few NMs in the game that actually have this trait. Many of the TP-spam NMs either have a lot of Store TP, or have special behaviors like using multiple TP moves in a row.


I wouldn't say "surprisingly few" NMs have Regain, because I've been regularly "surprised" at how many NMs I've encountered that seemed too insignificant to have Regain actually DO have it. I guess that's a matter of perspective though.

As for the latter bit though, yes, absurdly high STP is more often the issue.
#49 Mar 21 2011 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
119 posts
Quote:
Yeah, there is - the effect is too minimal to bother. It also takes a little more than 5 seconds to get in, cast the spell, and get out of range.


+10, +15, +20 isn't minimal. Boost AGI is maybe the only one since I get a feeling it caps early with the cruor buffs we get and I also have terribad enhancing (even with constantly casting buffs, wtf :().

Quote:

Except they often do. At least, the mobs I fight do. I don't know about what kind of **** ants you're fighting, but chances are they're not using anything threatening enough to bother with things like Auspice either.


What are you fighting? Name the mobs I'll tell you if I've killed it. If I havn't I'll go kill once the servers up np. I'll even be nice and SS during battle with me in range and casting buffs with those cute little timers so you know that none of them fell. I love a good competency challenge. ^_^

Edited, Mar 21st 2011 11:38pm by MippsCat
#50 Mar 22 2011 at 5:39 AM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,217 posts
Quote:
+10, +15, +20 isn't minimal.


Apply whatever numbers you want; bottom line is, I very often notice the exact same number of TP moves used by the mob over the course of the entire fight whether or not I bother to cast Auspice. In many cases (on the mobs that matter), this is due to either Regain or massive amounts of STP or whatever. As far as I'm concerned, the effect is minimal (Subtle Blow is subtle, as the saying goes) on these kinds of mobs.

As for your perceived "challenge", I really don't give two ***** whether you're able to keep up all the silly buffs or not. If you have no problem with it, great. I find that people are generally in more danger of dying when I worry about keeping them up rather than when I do not, so I generally don't bother. Again, the whole reason I'm there on WHM in the first place is so those uber TP moves aren't a hassle to deal with.
#51 Mar 22 2011 at 7:07 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
119 posts
Quote:
As for your perceived "challenge", I really don't give two sh*ts whether you're able to keep up all the silly buffs or not. If you have no problem with it, great. I find that people are generally in more danger of dying when I worry about keeping them up rather than when I do not, so I generally don't bother. Again, the whole reason I'm there on WHM in the first place is so those uber TP moves aren't a hassle to deal with.


So you say I fight things not worth a ****. But don't tell me what you fight that has such uber difficulty. Last I checked unless it directly casts 'Death' or is a cactuar you can easily duo or trio which to this point has been true. Name your mobs and add your level of difficulty with it. The worst that happens is that I've killed it.

Quote:
Apply whatever numbers you want; bottom line is, I very often notice the exact same number of TP moves used by the mob over the course of the entire fight whether or not I bother to cast Auspice. In many cases (on the mobs that matter), this is due to either Regain or massive amounts of STP or whatever. As far as I'm concerned, the effect is minimal (Subtle Blow is subtle, as the saying goes) on these kinds of mobs.


If your duo'ing you will notice an exceptional difference in the amount of TP moves. If you have 12 people sitting on it throughout a fight you may never see a difference (despite it still being there) given the enormous amount of TP gain from each of those weapons plinking away. But given you don't really need to bring more then a handful with cap increases it seems worth casting that extra auspice. Subtle Blow is far from subtle, more so, when stacked.
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 25 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (25)