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#1 Mar 14 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Hello there. im in the middle of raising a mule as WHM to 2box while i duo cleave's for gold box KI's for empyrean weapons. Im at a loss for an accepted set for the WHM.

i was considering a mass cure potency set, but i forgot about casting time. any suggestions for a set that isnt overly difficult to obtain?
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#2 Mar 14 2011 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Casting time:
As far as casting speed goes, Cure cast time merits and Cure Clogs will already have you near the cap when you couple it along with either Fast Cast from /RDM or Light Arts from /SCH. Cure Clogs have gotten rather expensive nowadays (at least on my server) but they are worth it, IMO.

To pad it, I would advise getting Orison Locket and Orison Pantaloons +1/2. The locket gives pure Fast Cast, not just Cure cast, so it helps all your spells rather than just Cures. (Aceso's Choker is harder/more expensive to obtain, and kinda overdoes it anyway nowadays; I wouldn't bother getting this if you have Cure Clogs.) Orison Pantaloons +2 in particular are one of the best all-around pieces of WHM gear around IMO, and I highly advise going after these as soon as you can. They also give a boost in cast speed to more than just Cures, and they become that much better if you've capped your Cure potency (see below)


Cure potency:
Thanks to the 22% Cure potency magian staff and a means to easily activate 10% Medicine Ring latent in Abyssea without requiring any extraneous gear, much less effort is needed to cap Cure potency. You're already at 32% with just these two items.

10% Noble's Tunic is essentially a standard. You can get slightly better here, but let's just assume 10% for a total of 42%.

7% Orison Cap +1 isn't too hard to get and puts you at 49%. If you bother to +2 it (10%), congrats; you're already at cap with just 4 pieces of gear.

Beyond that, the only real reason to pursue more Cure potency is if you're trying to get rid of the Cure potency body so that you can use Orison Briault Bliaud ******** your inconsistent naming of WHM bodies, SE) +1/2 instead for a stronger Cureskin. There's a few things you can get that conveniently add up to 10%:

3% Orison Cape
2% Orison Earring
5% Serpentes set

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 12:05am by Fynlar
#3 Mar 14 2011 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
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whats the easy way to activate the ring? convert and cure 3/4 of the way?

this is reeally good information. what do you suggest i do with the remaining slots? MND or something?

also, does potency allow you to go over the cap?

Edited, Mar 14th 2011 9:20pm by AsashinoTsuki
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#4 Mar 14 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
whats the easy way to activate the ring? convert and cure 3/4 of the way?


Just click off your HP buff (this is assuming you're in Abyssea)

Your max HP will drop down but the buff will immediately get reapplied, bringing it back up and leaving you "injured"


Quote:
what do you suggest i do with the remaining slots? MND or something?


I guess, yeah.


Quote:
also, does potency allow you to go over the cap?


What cap?

+Cure potency caps at 50%, which probably requires a total of 51% on your gear (for the same reason why the 25% gear haste cap actually needs 26% to cap, and why achieving -100% spell interruption actually needs -102%)
#5 Mar 14 2011 at 8:17 PM Rating: Decent
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whoops, i meant potency atma, im not sure if atma allows you to break any other caps, but i never knew you could take off a cruor buff like that, i'll have to pick up that ring then definately
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#6 Mar 14 2011 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
whoops, i meant potency atma, im not sure if atma allows you to break any other caps


Nope. All it would allow you to do is potentially take off some potency gear and stick MND in there or something instead.

However, that's not worth using an atma slot on, IMO. You would more than likely get better bang for your buck by simply using the atma slot for a MND atma instead (and I still would rather just use a Refresh atma instead of that)

To put things in some perspective:

- You can put on a Cure potency atma (+10%), or a +MND atma (+50 assuming you're not already using Atma of the Undying; +30 if you are, or don't have that atma)
- You can put on a Cure potency body (+10% at minimum, up to +14% if you're lucky/rich), or a +MND body (Augur's Jaseran has MND+13; I don't know if there's any that go higher than that, but probably not by much if there are)

Simply put, if you really wanted to have Cure potency in one of those and MND in the other, you'd be better off with getting MND from the atma.


Summary: +Cure potency atma is pretty much never worth using unless you can't reach the cap via your gear, which is something decent WHMs should never be guilty of nowadays.

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 12:07am by Fynlar
#7 Mar 14 2011 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
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thanks a ton for the advice, this is what i came up with

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/204722

the character is a mule, it dosent need the absolute greatest and this setup dosent seem overly hard to get, since the staff looks like it can be done in 2 days

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 12:39am by AsashinoTsuki
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#8 Mar 14 2011 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
whats the easy way to activate the ring? convert and cure 3/4 of the way?


Just click off your HP buff (this is assuming you're in Abyssea)

Your max HP will drop down but the buff will immediately get reapplied, bringing it back up and leaving you "injured"

Forgive my ignorance, but don't you have to be <75% of your base HP to activate the rings? I know some have been tested (like sorc) and shown that simply clicking off your cruor buff will NOT proc the latent, as it will drop you down to "100%".

For instance, if you have 1000 HP normally, and HP cruor buff pushes you to 2000 HP, clicking off the buff and dropping you to 1000/2000 would still be seen as 100% by the rings.

Unless Medicine Ring is unique and does not work this way, which is pretty much my question to begin with.
#9 Mar 14 2011 at 11:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Forgive my ignorance, but don't you have to be <75% of your base HP to activate the rings? I know some have been tested (like sorc) and shown that simply clicking off your cruor buff will NOT proc the latent, as it will drop you down to "100%".


I've heard that the BLM ring doesn't seem to work like the others (or at least the others that people actually bother to use), for some strange reason. I haven't really tested that much out on my BLM yet though, because in Abyssea I actually don't bother using the ring (I prefer to keep my HP up, and the ring makes far less of a difference in Abyssea than it does outside)

I can vouch that this trick WILL indeed work for the WHM ring though.
#10 Mar 15 2011 at 1:17 AM Rating: Good
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Wow really? That's certainly good info to know. Sorc ring I know for sure, from testing it myself, as well as seeing tests done by Rog (screenshots included). Makes me wonder how the others work now, since I had always assumed they were all the same so I avoided using them (as well as advised others not to as well. Oops)
#11 Mar 15 2011 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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You can always go for a Facio Bliaud later once your mule has been to a few NM fights and built up trophies. Empyrean AF +1 head/legs are fine - obviously +2 are nice but if its just for a mule and you can't get help for it the +1s are great. Sirona's is a decent ring but Med Ring... well I'm not sure its worth the hassle but each to their own.

The only thing I wouldn't skimp on is the staff - it really is worth questing it. I don't think the Orison's locket is worth going out of its way to get tbh... but if you can get it easily enough, then go ahead. You might want a specific haste set though for longer casting spells.

I'd actually recommend Orison Earring and cape as neither are that bad to get. The cape is easier, especially if you can take a MNK in and proc blue during Blunt time.

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 12:34pm by eldelphia
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#12 Mar 15 2011 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Casting time:
As far as casting speed goes, Cure cast time merits and Cure Clogs will already have you near the cap when you couple it along with either Fast Cast from /RDM or Light Arts from /SCH. Cure Clogs have gotten rather expensive nowadays (at least on my server) but they are worth it, IMO.

This is dangerously misleading by the way Fyn, I don't know if you're unaware of how cast speed works or if this was just poorly worded but Cure Cast merits, Cure Clogs, and /RDM won't put you anywhere near the casting speed cap (assuming there even is one).

Of course it's basically impossible to test for certain, but after years of experimenting with various cast speed pieces I've come to the conclusion that there are several different cast speed stats, not just one. "Fast Cast" is one, and "Cure Cast" and "Healing Cast" may also be separate stats as well. I think they compound. So for example, if you have 30% fast cast and 30% cure cast, you'd end up with 70% * 70% = 49% total cast speed.

I've heard rumors of a 50% cap on fast cast... this may be true, but if it is, then it only applies to the vanilla "fast cast" and not to the other types. For example you could get 50% fast cast plus 20% cure cast, and you would end up with significantly more than a 50% total reduction in cast time for cures.

I've done some simple testing that, while it doesn't reveal the finer mechanics, does at least prove that I'm not just pulling your leg. (A lot of this is reposted from my previous posts on various forums.)

I did some testing first with only Light Arts (10%), Cure Clogs (15%), Pantaloons+2 (12%), and my merits (20%). The total if you add them up is 57%. So if there is indeed an overall cap of 50%, I should be well past it. I did multiple casts of various long spells, and they tended to finish around the 53% mark on the spell cast gauge.

Next, I added more equipment:
Orison Locket (5%)
Loquacious Earring (2%)
Winged Wand (2%)
Veela Cape (2%)
Ebur Bliaut (Healing Cast Time -3%)
Incantor Stone (2%)

This adds another 16%, giving me 23% fast cast, 35% cure cast, and 15% healing cast (73% total if you add them up). After doing this, my casts now finish around the 42% mark on the spell cast gauge. I realize that eyeballing the spell cast gauge is not exactly scientific, but the reduction was over 10%... it's hard to chalk that up to latency and/or human error, it's a pretty huge difference.

If my theory of compounding is correct, then the above setup would give me 0.77 * 0.65 * 0.85 = 0.425425, or 42.5% cast time, which matches exactly with my observation. If you do the same for the first test, you get 0.9 * 0.65 * 0.88 = 0.5148, which also almost exactly matches my observation.

My pet theory is that each of the three stats are separate, each compounds with the others, each has a cap of 50%, and there is likely a cap on the total cast speed of 80%. That's just what I'm inclined to believe, but it makes sense if you think about it. Haste was done exactly in this manner. There's a cap for haste from equipment for example, which is 25%, but by combining different kinds of haste it's possible to reduce delay by as much as 80% at which point you hit the hard cap on delay reduction.

P.S. Adding fast cast atma makes my casts finish even faster, well within the 30% range on the spell cast gauge. Celerity takes it even further, finishing the cast at around 25%. Don't be afraid to stack cast speed stats until the cows come home, WHM can cast stuff incredibly fast with all the gear that's available now. I feel like if I was casting much faster, the spell would finish before I started it.
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#13 Mar 15 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't think the Orison's locket is worth going out of its way to get tbh... but if you can get it easily enough, then go ahead.


It's probably the easiest thing to get out of every rare/ex piece of gear listed in this thread so far.

Quote:
Sirona's is a decent ring but Med Ring... well I'm not sure its worth the hassle but each to their own.


Sirona's is kind of a crap ring, really. Medicine is far, far more useful. The only reason Sirona's is there is because we can't wear two Medicine rings. There isn't really anything that great you can throw in the second slot.

Clicking off a buff every now and then is no hassle; melees with Utsusemi have been doing this ever since they got Ichi and Ni, and it's far more difficult for them because they need good timing as well.

Quote:
I've heard rumors of a 50% cap on fast cast... this may be true, but if it is, then it only applies to the vanilla "fast cast" and not to the other types. For example you could get 50% fast cast plus 20% cure cast, and you would end up with significantly more than a 50% total reduction in cast time for cures.


I never knew this; I figured it would just work the same way as recasts (50% cap, no matter what)

Still though, the major things are merits, clogs, AF3+1/2 pants if you have them (only mentioning these really because they're good for more than just casting speed), and what you're getting from your sub. This is already a very good foundation. Beyond that I would focus on capping potency first before worrying about further casting speed stuff.

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 3:36pm by Fynlar
#14 Mar 15 2011 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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i would much rather keep the medicine ring on and click the buff than have to use up 2-3 other equip slots to get the same effect when i could be using them for MP/casting speed/MND.

also, very intersting information that casting time dosent cap at 50%
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#15 Mar 15 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Try to not overlook the value of -enmity, especially while curebombing in abyssea.
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#16 Mar 15 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Try to not overlook the value of -enmity, especially while curebombing in abyssea.


Yep, all that Cure 5/6 spam on the superpimped melee surely pulls gobs of hate.

In all honesty, even if you did pull hate (which generally only happens when there's just one melee on the mob and the mob does a hate reset), WHMs can probably take the hits better than most of those melee can. This is assuming, of course, that your WHM has a proper PDT set. It does, right?

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 4:21pm by Fynlar
#17 Mar 15 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you.

The main time the WHM will be curing is while my war is cleaving while loaded up with -pdt. while ive never done it before and correct me if im wrong, but while getting TP for the first cleave, large cures should have little effect because the mobs were linked. and afterwards, a fell cleave or 2 should take care of the hate, especially with full -enmity merits on whm. ive decided to take a far more defensive stance while fell cleaving because it will be my 1 whm at most. id rather kill slower and take far less damage

while doing NMs, the main will be DNC, and WHM will be doing little curing, lots of bar-spells and mostly removing lame effects like doom


Edited, Mar 15th 2011 4:29pm by AsashinoTsuki
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#18 Mar 15 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
while doing NMs, the main will be DNC, and WHM will be doing little curing, lots of bar-spells and mostly removing lame effects like doom


Depending on what your healing needs actually are, I would just advise to be very careful in choosing when to have a DNC act as main healer.

Some things to consider:

1) Waltz recast timers. (The biggest factor) Unlike Cures, once you use any Waltz, it locks you out from ALL Waltzes for a certain period of time. As far as I am aware, there is only one piece of equipment that can lower Waltz recast time, and that is the appropriately augmented helm from A Moogle Kupo d'Etat (lowers recast by 2 seconds)

2) Enmity. DNC can dump a "Cure V" but it does not come with the same enmity reduction as Cure V does. Make sure the DNC can handle eventually pulling hate.

3) If you are having the DNC melee as well (instead of relying solely on Regain atmas), be aware of the possibly heightened rate of TP move usage by the enemy.

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 4:32pm by Fynlar
#19 Mar 15 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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the DNC will be evasion tanking, WHM backup cure/resist buffs/debuff removal. with this method and the right atma i should be able to duo all 3 mobs i need for twashtar. if not, a brd will be the end of that

Edited, Mar 15th 2011 4:31pm by AsashinoTsuki
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#20 Mar 15 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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For PDT, I've only got Terra's Staff and Twilight Torque. I've not invested much into PDT/MDT sets yet, I'm slowly working on them.

For example, during a Grauberg caturae shout group, we had an alliance of people (no brews), I often pulled hate on him with just a PLD and MNK tank. Of the 3 or 4 WHMs there, I was curing about the same, if not more, than the others, and took hate the least.

Now, I agree this isn't an every-day occurrence for most people, but on Failfor, there are a lot of sub-par players. Capped -enmity has helped a tremendous amount in these groups.
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#21 Mar 15 2011 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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SakkaofValefor wrote:
Of the 3 or 4 WHMs there, I was curing about the same, if not more, than the others.
How does someone even know this?
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#22 Mar 15 2011 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
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How does someone even know this?


Parser? >_>

It's not just for damage you know
#23 Mar 16 2011 at 12:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not only parsing, but if you watch MP amounts, you can gauge roughly how much they're casting (though it gets more difficult to compare against ones' self if they have less MP/TIC from atmas, iirc only myself and one other WHM had 22~mp/tic, the other at 17) That is just eyeballing, a parser obviously gives the better number.
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#24 Mar 16 2011 at 6:15 AM Rating: Decent
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how in the world do you get 22/tic?

1 for nobles
10 for MM
3 for refresh
wheres the other 8?
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#25 Mar 16 2011 at 6:53 AM Rating: Decent
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I feel compelled to point out as well that as far as healing goes, a parser still isn't perfect. More specifically, going solely by "amount cured" isn't a perfect way to judge things. Multiple factors must be considered.

Imagine a guy is missing 1k HP and five WHMs Cure V him at once. Only one of them is going to end up with a decent "amount cured" score out of that; the one whose cast finishes first. That doesn't necessarily mean the other WHMs weren't trying.

Quote:
1 for nobles
10 for MM
3 for refresh
wheres the other 8?


20 from atma
1 from body
1 from Serpentes set

^ Most likely method. Another 1/tic can be gotten through augmented Wivre Hairpin.

The guy you were responding to was most likely not taking "external" sources of Refresh (in other words, casted Refresh) into account in his 22/tic figure.
#26 Mar 16 2011 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
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I don't think the Orison's locket is worth going out of its way to get tbh... but if you can get it easily enough, then go ahead.


It's probably the easiest thing to get out of every rare/ex piece of gear listed in this thread so far.

Quote:
Sirona's is a decent ring but Med Ring... well I'm not sure its worth the hassle but each to their own.


Sirona's is kind of a crap ring, really. Medicine is far, far more useful. The only reason Sirona's is there is because we can't wear two Medicine rings. There isn't really anything that great you can throw in the second slot.

Clicking off a buff every now and then is no hassle; melees with Utsusemi have been doing this ever since they got Ichi and Ni, and it's far more difficult for them because they need good timing as well.



Sirona's isn't a 'crap' ring. Its almost a freebie MND ring. Medicine Ring is almost a worthless piece of junk these days as its easy to cap out your cure potency without it. And killing the unicorn Karkadann for the locket is more difficult than killing Marvin for your backpiece...

Orison Head +2 = 10%
Surya's Staff +2 = 22%
Orison cape = 3%

Then you have a ton of choices without even touching the body slot should you want to use Orison.... Orison earring/Serpentes set/roundel earring/augur's hands/scenario pants.... I use

Orison Head+2 = 10%
Surya's Staff +2 = 22%
Orison Cape = 3%
Roundel Earring = 5%
Facio Bliaud = 10% (I have an 11% one without refresh and working on a 13% to ditch the backpiece)

That's 50% right there. I could add in serpentes which is more achievable than a roundel these days. I don't use my cure pot pants for WHM anymore at all... The Orison earring and the +1 head... are both easy to get. Why on earth would you use a medicine ring? Augur's gloves just give you more flexibility.

Why anyone wants to voluntarily remove their HP inside Abyssea I don't know... As for refresh Atma, I use Minnikin only 90% of the time. Oh and /SCH.


Edited, Mar 16th 2011 11:16am by eldelphia
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