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Seawolf and Sea Robber CudgelsFollow

#1 Mar 10 2010 at 1:36 AM Rating: Decent
Yes, I'm back with more of my melee whm obsession. (Hey, it's better than talking about nothing but the upcoming updates, right?) I was wondering how many of you have either one or both of these clubs? I simply just don't see or hear about many people having them, even though they are good clubs. Admittedly, they are a ***** and a half to obtain in the first place, but I'm sure there are other people out there who have felt it worth the effort. So... who has managed to snag one or both of these?
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#2 Mar 10 2010 at 1:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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I got both of these while going for my Ebisu rod. I don't use either.

Technically, the +acc one is good to use for harder targets, but I just never liked the delay on these weapons. Perdu Wand ftw
#3 Mar 10 2010 at 2:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Perdu wand is undeniably awesome. I could care less for those cudgels, but then again, I don't care much about melee WHM in the first place. I would never give up perdu for either of them.

Edited, Mar 10th 2010 2:06am by bsphil
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#4 Mar 10 2010 at 2:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
I got both of these while going for my Ebisu rod. I don't use either.

Technically, the +acc one is good to use for harder targets, but I just never liked the delay on these weapons. Perdu Wand ftw
For the same Delay one can simply use two Brass Jadagnas (or Brises-os if anyone actually makes the bloody things).

But yes, Perdu Wand is pretty darn awesome if you're that way inclined. If I had WHM levelled I sure as **** would be.



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#5 Mar 10 2010 at 3:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Brises-os are the new daddy clubs :P highest base dmg non relic, +str +hp, average delay, awesome.
I have the +acc club, Im not sure Id use it given the choice, havent played WHM in like a year though. :P

Perdu Wand / Deae Gratia seem like more solid off hand choices personally but I suppose it does carry +5 STR to its +15acc. Not gonna crunch numbers on it just throwing out some options there :P

Edited, Mar 10th 2010 4:29am by ZiGG
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#6 Mar 10 2010 at 3:41 AM Rating: Decent
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The club with the highest base dd is most preferable for main-hand, thus Brise-Os (+1) rules.

Nowadays, the pirate cudgels suck hard in that departement. But they have killer mods for when you need them, especially the ACC+15 can be very nice against anything that really matters.

Also, at least for me it was quite fun to camp the cudgels. If you are into WHMmelee like i was years ago when whm was my first love, it gives a great sense of accomplishment to finally dual-wield both of them.


Having said that, rule No1 for any serious whm who wants to melee:

Get a Perdu wand as fast as possible!

Nothing, NOTHING compares to its dps.

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#7 Mar 10 2010 at 7:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Mosel wrote:
Having said that, rule No1 for any serious whm who wants to melee:

Get a Perdu wand as fast as possible!

Nothing, NOTHING compares to its dps.
I've been enjoying my Kinkobo + Pamamas lately, actually.

Granted, staff WSes blow hard until you can start spamming Full Swing, but it's still pretty impressive to go out there with a staff and swing faster than someone with a hammer. :-)
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#8 Mar 10 2010 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Granted, staff WSes blow hard until you can start spamming Full Swing


I thought Full Swing generally blew unless it was 300 TP? In which case, you're not ever "spamming" that. >_>

In my experience, at 100, Retribution is always better for damage. Course, I don't usually get to use that because I always gravitate toward Spirit Taker instead.
#9 Mar 10 2010 at 8:01 AM Rating: Decent
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"but it's still pretty impressive to go out there with a staff and swing faster than someone with a hammer. :-)"

Excuse me.....Kinkobo has a delay of 329 (/w latent active). Perdu wand has 216, so....idk what situation you where swinging faster than the other whm(s), but you certainly won´t swing faster with a Kinkobo than with a perdu wand.
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#10 Mar 10 2010 at 8:10 AM Rating: Good
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Mosel wrote:
"but it's still pretty impressive to go out there with a staff and swing faster than someone with a hammer. :-)"

Excuse me.....Kinkobo has a delay of 329 (/w latent active). Perdu wand has 216, so....idk what situation you where swinging faster than the other whm(s), but you certainly won´t swing faster with a Kinkobo than with a perdu wand.
Hammer type clubs tend to be Delay 340.
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#11 Mar 10 2010 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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The Acc+15 one is still very good. Especially if you want to go after serious targets.

Seawolf + Perdu is +20 accuracy, 5STR and 9 Attack. That's a relic-level kind of accuracy bonus right there.
It is basically required to get near the Accu Cap for Colibri for example; which more than makes up for giving up a bit of DPS.





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#12 Mar 10 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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On the subject of actually obtaining them, I spent roughly 130 hours 1/9 on Silverhook. But I guess those kind of drop stories are faily common in this game. :P
Getting him to spawn was my main problem, the only trick I used to use was

"The reference to the text box coming up over the black screen refers to when you zone. For pirate attacks the box will appear while the screen is still black and then the inside of the ship will appear. If pirates are not going to attack the inside of the ship appears, then the text box."
src which is very helpful for staying on the same half of a route if you want a specific club.
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#13 Mar 10 2010 at 10:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
Granted, staff WSes blow hard until you can start spamming Full Swing


I thought Full Swing generally blew unless it was 300 TP? In which case, you're not ever "spamming" that. >_>
The mods on it are halfway decent (well, compared to earlier staff WSes). That's about the only advantage it actually has.

(Unless you want to blow the money on a Martial Staff, in which case you do have a better damage output by spamming it at 100% than by waiting for 200%.)
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#14 Mar 10 2010 at 11:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Martial wand gives the best mystic boons but the overall dot isn't as good as other clubs. It IS very easy to obtain and cheap to boot. Main hand martial wand and offhand perdu is really nice for mp recovery.
#15 Mar 11 2010 at 6:01 AM Rating: Good
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Spirit taker is nice until you get mystic boon and then you never want to touch a staff again. The higher acc of the club and the power of the Nyzul WS makes it a lot of fun to melee, especially in Campaign. My setup is predominantly for MP regain so I tend to Martial/Perdu and spam Boon but I don't do any serious melee, just campaign and solo.
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#16 Mar 12 2010 at 11:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I use morgenstern+perdu ; ; crit hit +10% on hexa strike! (w/ merits)

But I'm no melee and I don't know if there are better things than what I use. I just have fun :D
#17 Mar 13 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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For serious whm melee, best main-hand clubs without question now are:
Mjollnir > Gullintani > Brise-Os+1 > Brise-Os

Offhand depends on what you need/want out of it.
-Seawolf Cudgel is good if you accuracy is far from capped, but Sea Robber is never worth using.
-Kraken Club/Prudence Rod will get you faster TP obviously, and are usually the best offhands you can have.
-Perdu Wand is a great weapon by itself, but personally the only use I see for it is if you're not using a multi-hit, and your acc isn't bad enough to make use of Seawolf.

If your acc is complete garbage, I suppose Seawolf+Deae Gratia would be the way to go, but if your acc is that bad, you're probably not very serious about what you're doing anyway

Also, might want to camp your Octave Clubs now for June. Only going to last 3 months, but it'll be a lot of cheap fun at level 80 cap.
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#18 Mar 13 2010 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
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Daleven wrote:
-Perdu Wand is a great weapon by itself, but personally the only use I see for it is if you're not using a multi-hit, and your acc isn't bad enough to make use of Seawolf.


Perdu Wand is still unmatched for mainhanding when not /NIN (Not counting relic).

Mostly because Auspice's Enlight really benefits from a low-delay Club. Which only enhances Perdu's amazing DPS. The attack/Accuracy bonus are also a huge help when not /NIN.

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#19 Mar 14 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Personally me, as /nin, i use Seawolf and sub Deae Gratia. <3 acc+ :P i went 1/4 on Silverhook, soloing 2 and the other 2 having a friend help lol
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#20 Mar 14 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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eldelphia wrote:
I don't do any serious melee, just campaign and solo.
Solo is serious melee, though! :-D

Oh, BTW, something for people who do melee at all to keep in mind: unless you're wasting accuracy by using a Virtuoso Belt, use it instead of a Swift Belt. (Okay, I'll make one other exception: if you're getting March, the Swift Belt will pull ahead at lower accuracy.) 4% Haste is rarely worth losing 9 accuracy and 9 attack over. :-D
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#21 Mar 14 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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[without march] 4% Haste is rarely worth losing 9 accuracy and 9 attack over. :-D


I dunno about that ... it might be worth it more often than you think! The only problem is, I don't know the ins and outs of attack very well, in terms of "this will be a 1% increase" etc.

Disclaimer: I'm not perfect! If you see a mistake in my math, please let me know! :)


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Let's do ACC first:

9acc = 4.5% hit rate

@90.5 -> 95.0% = 4.97% increase
@80.5 -> 85.0% = 5.59% increase
@70.5 -> 75.0% = 6.38% increase
@60.5 -> 65.0% = 7.43% increase
@50.5 -> 55.0% = 8.91% increase

(I really hope your ACC isn't ~50% though)

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Now for haste:

Any WHM should be able to get 30% haste (turban, blesseds, spell):
30% -> 34% = 5.71% increase

if you have Nashira body (18% gear + 15% spell):
33% -> 37% = 5.97% increase

if you have Goliard body (19% gear + 15% spell):
34% -> 38% = 6.06% increase

if you have an HQ blessed (20% gear + 15% spell):
35% -> 39% = 6.15% increase

if you have a second HQ (21% gear + 15% spell):
36% -> 40% = 6.25% increase

and if you cap gear (as far as I know, it's 25.25% @26):
37% -> 40.25% = 5.16% increase
--> *capping haste so getting 3.25% from belt, instead of 4%

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So, to compare, imagine starting with a Mithran Stone* (+3acc):
*EDIT: reflects +3acc given, since we want the (9acc) difference

If you have 15% haste gear and over 79% acc, swift wins.
If you have 15% haste gear and under 79% acc, virtuoso wins.

If you have 18% haste gear and over 75% acc, swift wins.
If you have 18% haste gear and under 75% acc, virtuoso wins.

If you have 19% haste gear and over 74% acc, swift wins.
If you have 19% haste gear and under 74% acc, virtuoso wins.

If you have 20% haste gear and over 73% acc, swift wins.
If you have 20% haste gear and under 73% acc, virtuoso wins.

If you have 21% haste gear and over 72% acc, swift wins.
If you have 21% haste gear and under 72% acc, virtuoso wins.

If you have 22% haste gear and over 87% acc, swift wins.
If you have 22% haste gear and under 87% acc, virtuoso wins.
--> *capping haste so getting 3.25% from belt, instead of 4%


--------

This doesn't account for attack, but it gives you a rough idea of where the different haste and accuracy values meet.^^

And, like MDenham mentioned, if you have another form of haste, there is a better chance Swift will win out over Virtuoso.

EDIT: Added note about Mithran Stone as a mathematical middle point between the two belts!


Edited, Mar 14th 2010 8:03pm by RyaWHM
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#22 Mar 14 2010 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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While gear haste caps out at 25%, much of the haste gear doesn't actually total to exactly that.

Perfect example. The classic MNK gear set-up of 25% Haste, actually only gave 24% Haste. Walmart (5%), Black Belt (12%), Fumas (3%), and Kitty pants (5%) while on paper equal 25% haste, didn't actually give 25%.

So adding Swift at 22% haste may get more gain that your calcs showed.
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#23 Mar 14 2010 at 10:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry, I really should just left the last one (capped gear @ 3xHQ) off my list, because it's very unlikely, and even in my case, I don't use 3xHQ because of ASA (haste/acc). Hopefully people with 3xHQ aren't reading this for help ...

But there are actually two different things going on:

-- I have heard the EQ cap is ~25.25% and not 25.00% (259/1024 or whatever)

-- I don't know the exact x/1024 for each item!


This has more details about what you're describing, if anyone is interested. Kirschy is so great! Also, he claims 256, which is prolly right, but it's an old post so who knows ...

But since you brought it up, if his numbers work for WHM gear, max without swift should be around 221/1024, which comes out to about 21.58% on the solo WHM (then we add the spell @ 150/1024).

So whether it's:
36.23% -> 39.64% = 5.35% increase (221+40=cap256; +150 spell)
or
36.23% -> 39.94% = 5.82% increase (221+40=cap259; +150 spell)
(or whatever)

...doesn't really matter, because it's lower than what I had listed before it (6.15% increase, 6.25% increase) due to capping -- that's all I was getting at really.^^


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Edited, Mar 15th 2010 12:12am by RyaWHM
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#24 Mar 15 2010 at 1:45 AM Rating: Good
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For what it's worth, "x%" on gear = x*10/1024 in reality.

The haste cap for gear is at 256/1024 (which is 25% - but it takes 26% worth of gear to get your 25%), like Kirschy says.

Attack+9... well, it depends on your food, obviously (and, for that matter, the acc+9 may end up being +10 or even, rarely, +11 if you're using accuracy food), but that should be about a 2.8% (+/- 0.2) boost in attack, and so roughly 1.2x that (or about 3.3~3.4%) more damage. (This varies depending on the defense of what you're fighting. Higher-defense mobs will give more benefit from the attack than lower-defense mobs will.)

Obviously, this is assuming you're not fighting stuff under ~160 defense (where you cap out cRatio)!

---

Anyway, to get back to why I said 4% haste isn't worth giving up both the accuracy and attack, we'll take the worst case (from Virtuoso's standpoint) of two pieces of HQ Blessed:

Haste: +6.25% for Swift
Attack: -3.375% for Swift

which leaves (note: for nitpickers out there, you don't just add/subtract on these, you add the amounts to 1 and then multiply) about 2.66% for the accuracy to cover. For you to get that little out of accuracy requires you to be sitting at a 92.5% hit rate with Swift - or a 91% hit rate with no belt at all. (You might actually be better off if you've somehow managed to produce an augmented belt with just Att+/STR+. It's late and I don't want to bother running the numbers for that. :-D)

So: get a Virtuoso Belt, folks, please. (Or find a BRD to duo with rather than soloing.)

Also note: if Haste II becomes a reality (probable) and it's 20% or 25%, don't toss out your Swift Belt.
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#25 Mar 15 2010 at 2:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So: get a Virtuoso Belt, folks, please.


Easy for you to say. I had it easy and went 1/5 on mine, but I have since taken that up to 1/10 trying to get it randomly for other people, and I know a couple people on my server who are over 0/50. The fact that it's not a force spawn NM and usually has to be camped for against other people adds to the potential pain (I have no idea how many missed claims those 0/50+ people have)

Edited, Mar 15th 2010 3:18am by Fynlar
#26 Mar 15 2010 at 5:47 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
but that should be about a 2.8% (+/- 0.2) boost in attack, and so roughly 1.2x that (or about 3.3~3.4%) more damage. (This varies depending on the defense of what you're fighting. Higher-defense mobs will give more benefit from the attack than lower-defense mobs will.)


So you're just doing +9/320 or so (attack) for the ~2.8% and the 1.2x is part of the pDIF/cRatio math?
--> Wiki has an awful lot of verification tags (at time of writing)!

See, this's the part that fascinates me, can you show a bit more of the "why/how" behind that?

WHM has low attack, which should make +ATT more appealing/helpful than if you had, say, 650att. But that doesn't stop the blind advice-giving machine from spitting out "PCC>Torque ALWAYS" and "Sushi>Pizza ALWAYS" and so on.

I still want a clearer idea of how close the following are:
55att vs. 16acc (pizza/sushi)
7att vs. 3acc (torque/pcc)
6att vs. 2acc (cape aug)

...because if I understand your math right, 55att could be a ~13% increase in damage, where you need ~60% hitrate or lower with pizza, in order for the sushi to win!
(or, having something like 68% and below with sushi)

Similarly, torque could give a 2% increase, such that you need ~75% hit rate (or lower) for PCC to win. Bellicose could give ~1.7% requiring ~58% hitrate (or lower) for aug to win.

Is this for real?


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Edited, Mar 15th 2010 9:53am by RyaWHM
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